DG advice

[damiac]

Hi everyone,

Instead of hijacking someone else's thread, I'm creating my own for once.

So, I've won a few 4 runers, and come really close on a few others, and thrown away a good number more in the crypt. Now I want to play a character from the beginning with the intent of going for all 15 runes. I'll probably attempt to clear some zigs too, because why not?


Now, my thinking is that a Dg might be a good race to try this with. The low xp aptitude won't matter anymore once I'm at XL27, and the good stats and MR should be a big help, once I've advanced in XL sufficiently.

So, the issue here is that I'm planning for the endgame, with no real early game plans. I've managed to get one DG 2 runes, and got killed in V5 by idiotic tabbing around convokers... But that was a DgGl, which really seemed like a crappy background for a demigod. I felt like I was playing catch up the whole time (although in the end, my character became pretty powerful, I lucked my way through a fair amount of the early game, and it was very painful).

So, I have a few questions.
Is DG a good choice if my intention is to be as powerful as possible for extended?
Any particularly good backgrounds? I'm thinking IE might help to overcome my early game weakness.
How should I advance my stats? Last game I shot for a balance between dex and int, but I'm not sure at all if that's a good idea.
Due to my semi-weak aptitudes, skill training is going to be very important early game. Any advice on that front?
Should I be assuming I'll be training evocations, for ways to regenerate mana later on? If so, should I use that as my main way of getting more MP, or should I be training spellcasting for that? (Only the higher skill counts for MP, right?)
Any particular weapon recommendations? I've been going with swords lately, because claymores seem like the best non-gsc weapon in the game. But that doesn't really matter if you never find a claymore...


So, basically, I'm trying to find a good way to manage the early game, with the assumption that things will get a bit easier, and I will be able to spread out my skills more, once I get rolling. I will say trying to play DGs has given me a much better grasp on knowing when to just run away, and the lack of piety decay means I can really take my time, branch hopping and what not.

[some12fat2move]

So, I have a few questions.
Is DG a good choice if my intention is to be as powerful as possible for extended?
Any particularly good backgrounds? I'm thinking IE might help to overcome my early game weakness.
How should I advance my stats? Last game I shot for a balance between dex and int, but I'm not sure at all if that's a good idea.
Due to my semi-weak aptitudes, skill training is going to be very important early game. Any advice on that front?
Should I be assuming I'll be training evocations, for ways to regenerate mana later on? If so, should I use that as my main way of getting more MP, or should I be training spellcasting for that? (Only the higher skill counts for MP, right?)
Any particular weapon recommendations? I've been going with swords lately, because claymores seem like the best non-gsc weapon in the game. But that doesn't really matter if you never find a claymore...

DG are strong, but so are gods. Not really a bad choice for extended but not particularly good either.
Any background that benefits from high int and mp tends to be a really good background, and DG int and mp makes it even better. So yes IE would be good.
Skill training depends mostly on your background. With a book background I think you usually want to train spell schools at first and then invest in dodging.
Other than species selection, I recommend that you do not worry about max MP.
With a book background, using whatever branded weapon I find seems effective. Keep your eyes peeled for anything of electrocution. Enhancer staff can be a great (but very rare) find.

[Lasty]

In a lot of ways any worshipper of Zin would be better than a demigod for late game. You get Vitalization to get Demigod-level stats (as well as a bunch of status immunities) without having to have Demigod aptitudes, and you even a bunch of powerful protection effects that are particularly end game relevant: mutation resistance, hell effect prevention, and two of the best protection/escape abilities in the game.

[and into]

Dg are cool, but I would only recommend playing them to someone who specifically wants to try playing Crawl without worshiping any god. They aren't a "power gamer" option, and even a well equipped, high level Dg in late game is often going to be weaker than very many combinations of species/religions that will also have a much smoother time early on.

I don't want to discourage you from trying Dg, they are interesting and worth testing out, but I think you are setting yourself up for disappointment if you expect them to be some kind of "ultimate end game" species. (Ds with particularly good mutations and Naga are closer to that, actually.)

[damiac]

Hmm, interesting. My thoughts were that a DG was sort of like being a chei follower, with less stat boosts, but no slowness, no powers, but you can use haste.

However, my actual experience, even with the one who made it to V5, was that my Dg just felt weak. So maybe those higher stats just aren't worth as much as I had hoped. I figured it would pay off by XL27, but it's a bit questionable if the increased stats make up for the lack of a god.

I'm not terribly interested in playing a DS, no need to throw more randomness into the mix.

So, on the "powergamer" front, if someone had a gun to your head and told you you have to win a 15 runer, what would you go with?

Would a HoFi of Oka make sense as a start, going with axes, then swapping to makleb late game, assuming Oka will have given me the best stuff I'm going to get, and healing on kills/demonic backup will become more valuable than heroism and finesse. I think I'd really want to have necromutation for the torment heavy areas, I understand it's not required, but it does sound like the most straightforward way of dealing with torment (aside from just being undead in the first place).

Thanks to everyone for the advice.

[Lasty]

If I had a gun to my head and had to win a 15 rune game, I would probably go SpEn of Dith, or perhaps Makhleb|Okawaru.

[crate]

the point of Dg is you trade lategame power (that you won't have as much of since you won't have a god) for being very strong early on (Dg is very good on d:1) and for less nuisance of dealing with a god

you seem to have this backward

[Tedronai]

So, on the "powergamer" front, if someone had a gun to your head and told you you have to win a 15 runer, what would you go with?

GrBe

But I don't think this is related to the original topic anymore.

[and into]

Well, if you are set on doing 15 runes, for the most part you shouldn't affect your game play that much. You have to (all but) win nearly all the 3-rune game part before doing the other stuff, so nearly all of the same priorities are still in play. Major difference I think is that you should plan around absolutely wanting haste (even more so than 3 rune), ideally controlled blink, and then one of these two: holy god worship (possibly switched to for late game only), or b. revivification and/or death's door.

So some species choice thoughts based on that:

Hill Orc is really good in general, for any part of the game. They are hardy, level fast, and their aptitudes are good. They can go good god or necromancy, which gives you some flexibility.

Demonspawn are strong "late blooming" species, but lack of the good god option is potentially detrimental. That can be made up for with necromancy investment though, for which Ds have a good aptitude, but you need to find the books. Something like Ds Conjurer of Sif who branches into Necro in mid game would be a good mix of "reasonably strong early on, hoping for possibility of 15 rune, without sacrificing too much in terms of my survival short term." Pick up whatever decent weapon spawns early on and try to get a demon foo later. Nightstalker, HP+, rTorment are all great facets for extended. If you hit one of those it will help a lot; yes, there is an element of randomness/luck there, however.

Gargoyles have low HP which is a liability throughout game, including extended due to prevalence of smite and hellfire. On the other hand, innate rTorment and crazy AC are major benefits, and their other peculiarities and immunities are convenient. No religious restriction except Yred. Gargoyle ice elementalist or conjurer is a very fun start. You could also just go GrBe—that would definitely be my answer to "gun to my head, you need to win one game as 15 runer right now."

Octopodes and Nagas are very good late game but challenging early on. If you are pretty good at getting either or both those species to Lair, then they tend to make good extended material. If not, don't bother, the early game deaths will be too frustrating.

[damiac]

I wouldn't want to do Gargoyle, just because of the low HPs. You think the easiest 15 runer is a GrBE? Would you stick with trog the whole way?
Nagas and Hill orcs seem like good options. I'd probably go HoFi with the hill orc, but what background would you be with the naga?

Yeah, I guess I had DGs backward, I thought their slow XP and high stat growth meant they'd become very powerful eventually, but it would take a long time to get there. By the way, a DgGl is weak even on D1... I see why it's not recommended.

That said, I'm not giving up on 15 runing a DG, but perhaps I should try something easier for my first real foray into extended. What prompted me to want to do this was a MiGl of Oka who I had intended on 4 runing, but he ended up so powerful it seemed like a waste to ascend with just 4 runes. I did collect the demonic rune, but later I cleverly ran headlong into a pack of sphinxes in tomb, and they shot hubris at me until I died.

A Minotaur actually doesn't seem terrible for extended either. There's enough XP at that point in the game to develop haste with no problem, and I guess you could eventually get cblink castable. I'm not sure if it's feasible to have a minotaur casting necromutation without significant pan scumming though, so torment would be an issue.

[Tedronai]

You think the easiest 15 runer is a GrBE? Would you stick with trog the whole way?

Gr because free rElec and rTorment. Also you can wear lighter armor and still easily get 50+ AC. Be Background to mitigate early game RNG variances. After the typical 3 rune game drop Trog for either Makhleb or TSO (I'd favor Makhleb). Cannot think of a combo I would feel more certain to win a 15-runer with.

[Magipi]

What prompted me to want to do this was a MiGl of Oka who I had intended on 4 runing, but he ended up so powerful it seemed like a waste to ascend with just 4 runes.

Then why don't you just try the same build again? You enjoyed it, it felt strong, go try it again. It is certainly better than trying some challenge species like demigod. Just grab the strongest combination you know, extended will be hard enough even with that.

[and into]

Yeah, sounds like Mi is your match. They are good too, you are right their poor casting aptitudes do not matter very much when your fighting/dodging/armor/weapon are all high, and you are at the point of the game in which lots of enemies are dropping 100s if not 1000s of exp on you.

I stuck with Trog for a GrBe 10-runer—I just didn't feel like dealing with Tomb + Hells that day. It was lots of fun. 70+ AC, antimagic great mace, Trog's Hand and BiA is all you need, though evocations support was welcome. The low HP does mean that smite and hellfire are even more of a concern, yeah, but again if I literally had one chance to win a 15 runer I would say GrBe, with CeBe, DsBe, MiBe, HOBe behind them. Those would probably also be my top choices for a "must win" 3 rune game scenario, also, though various non-Be spriggan and deep dwarf builds start to compete for powerfulness/survivability in standard game. Of course players who are better than me can probably beat the game 15-runes with almost any spriggan start very consistently because, well, spriggans. I have beaten some of extended with Deep Dwarf but I found it so frustrating and unfun that this experience probably clouds my ability to consider them objectively with respect to this topic.

Death Knight is also an extremely strong open but people underrate Yred because they don't like dealing with minions. People's attitude toward him mirrors their attitude toward Ely in that sense: It is an extremely powerful toolkit but some folks don't find it very fun. (FWIW I think Yred is a lot more enjoyable with recent changes and improvements.)

For Naga I think transmuter (spider form is godsend), enchanter, wizard, conjurer, or any elementalist is strong. VM seems good for naga on paper but is only mediocre in practice IMO, mephitic is strong early obviously, but your bad speed means you want to be especially careful about your noisiness.

[Hirsch I]

why are nagas so good (besides being sexy)?

[rchandra]

why are nagas so good (besides being sexy)?

great HP, fine MP, great AC (both innate and barding and derived from barding), constriction. They have good shields too if you want that.

[and into]

Huge HP, and +13 intrinsic AC. Over the course of an entire game you will usually find at least some regular barding, which gives even better AC. Slow movement never stops being a liability but eventually you can get enough workarounds that it isn't too big of a deal. I still wouldn't say nagas are powerful for winning in general, but of those that survive to late game you will usually be in a good spot to go into extended because 300 HP is 300 HP. (Okay 298 HP technically but w/e.) Constriction too.

[Hirsch I]

cool. I always tought Na were challenge races.
I still have lots to learn.

[duvessa]

They are, naga is one of the worst races in the game imo.

[and into]

Yes, they are a challenge. I meant very specifically what I said, Hirsch I: *if* you survive until mid game then going extended is less of a leap than for some other species because huge HP (mainly, plus other stuff). Octopodes are similar in this regard, you are stuck with crap AC for a long time but then if you survive long enough you can become ridiculously strong. "Weak early strong later" is a losing gamble in DCSS, it is only very specifically in the context of "I don't care about winning, only about trying for 15 runes" that I would possibly bring up Na or Op. Even then other choices are still better because they are strong in late game, but also not terrible early on (e.g., demonspawn).

[tasonir]

Nagas were very briefly a strong, easy race when they got constriction at level 1. Now that it's 13, they have very tough early games. But if you make it to late game, they are incredible. I really got attached to them in .10, and love melee nagas because once they're going they are simply incredible. But getting to xl 13 as melee now is very, very frustrating.

If you had to go for 15 runes I'd probably just do minotaur, any melee background, and do okawaru->TSO. If you don't want to keep doing gladiators, then CeHu is good for ranged, and DE<any mage background> are easy casters.

[and into]

For specifically going 15 rune, DE are particularly bad I think. You get so much experience that the superior aptitudes are proportionally less of a benefit, while the bad HP is just as crippling.

Also if you are going to go with the good gods it isn't a bad idea to use Zin and TSO in combination, rather than just TSO. In particular Zin makes the four Hells a lot less dangerous and tedious.

[crate]

if you can get 3 runes, you can basically always get 15, so the idea of making a character just for getting 15 runes seems weird to me

just make a strong character

[and into]

if you can get 3 runes, you can basically always get 15, so the idea of making a character just for getting 15 runes seems weird to me

just make a strong character

That's true, but if you are absolutely dead-set on winning a 15 rune game there are a few things worth taking into account, mostly I was probably over-analyzing though. If damiac is good at playing minotaurs he should play a minotaur and try to go 15 runes with that.

[Magipi]

I think Naga is not a good advice. It will be terribly frustrating to aim for 15 runes, and still lose dozens of characters pre-Lair.

Minotaur is a solid bet. Even a not very good player can win with a Trog -> TSO -> Zin route: viewtopic.php?f=12&t=10835

It is mildly surprising for me that nobody mentioned the idea of a firestormer of Vehumet (or Sif Muna). It is arguably the strongest build in extended, and pretty popular, too.

[damiac]

Well, some builds are more extended ready after 3 runes than others. For example, a SpEn doesn't seem particularly well suited to extended.

Well, at the moment I'm running a NAIE. I was thinking the same thing a lot of people are saying here, it'll be harder early on, but once it gets rolling I'll have great HP and AC, decent aptitudes, some handy intrinsics, and constriction. I'll always be slow, so C-blink is going to be important. The nice thing is that I just found a book of ice, meaning I've got access to bolt of cold and ice cloud once I have enough skill to cast them. With that in mind, I'll probably go Vehumet... maybe even stick with him through extended (of course, I'll probably be dead long before then, but hey, I'm being optimistic.

If I splat this one I may go back to MiGl, or MiFi, go Oka until extended, then... TSO? I probably shouldn't plan on getting high level necro spells, especially not necromutation, right? If it's reasonable to think extended would have enough XP(without a lot of scumming) for me to get the good necromancy spells going, then maybe I'd do Makleb instead of TSO. Oka doesn't seem like a very strong choice for extended, especially considering I will have haste castable.

[mikee]

I could be wrong, but from reading this thread I think that you would be best off with a deep dwarf, even a ddfi. It's not much different from mifi, which you are comfortable with, except it 'scales' better and you don't have to do any god switching. You can even get shatter or some other spells quite easily for doing a zig.

[damiac]

Would you recommend makhleb for the whole game for a DDFI? I hadn't given DD much thought, but you make a good point.

I splatted my NaIE through idiocy (I died with a wand of HW, and 6 recharge scrolls...), then started up a CeFi. He's already well established enough to go all the way, so if I don't do anything too stupid I shouldn't have too much trouble getting to extended.

Of course, if I could play without doing anything too stupid I'd have a lot more wins, but that's the way it goes...

[Magipi]

But why Fighter? Practically all backgrounds are stronger.

[Sandman25]

DDFi of Makhleb is very powerful indeed but I am not sure a new player will enjoy/survive Hell/Tomb with it, especially if low on max MP due to bad play earlier. I was not in extended for the first time with my DDFi so I knew how bad extended is but it was still very frustrating to lose 100+ HP without an easy way to get them back. Also lots of grinding in Pan trying to find easy monsters for healing.

[damiac]

What's wrong with fighters? You start with good weapon skill, scale armour, and a shield that's helpful until you find a 2hander. Gladiator is another nice background choice, but I'm on a heavy armor kick lately. I find Berserkers too boring, I want to cast spells damn it.

Yeah, obviously the lack of healing with DDs is going to be a problem all game, and I see your point that early screw ups will continue to haunt me throughout the game.

I've done 4 runes with a firestormer DE, I suppose that character could have done extended, but I got a little bored with DE's. I'm really finding myself liking melee starts who branch into some magic later on, so that's influencing my character choices.

Do people really think Fighter is a weak background? It doesn't start with any cool toys, but it's typically solid enough to get you established. It would be nice if it came with a +1+1 weapon, but eh, what can you do...

[dck]

Fi was pretty much the worst non-book background until recently (most non-book starts are worse than book starts), now it starts with better weapons and !might so it can probably compare roughly to As (with As having the upper hand somewhat) and is better than Mo (then again Mo isn't an amazing start) although still clearly inferior to Gl, god backgrounds except CK, Ar, Hu.

[damiac]

Hmm, when did Fighter's starting loadout change? I didn't notice any potions of might, but I'm still playing the last version of trunk that was auto-built, so it's a bit old now. What do you mean when you say they start with better weapons?

I usually don't have any trouble getting Fighters to lair, but I suppose I could say the same of gladiators. Book starts are entirely different anyway, although most of them do feel more powerful, except the hybrid ones, which feel really weak to me. I don't play many Enchanters though, so I dont' have much opinion there.

I suppose starting with 2 throwing is usually a lot better than 2 shields, and the throwing nets are great.

[duvessa]

What do you mean when you say they start with better weapons?

He means they start with better weapons

[damiac]

Damn, I gotta learn to compile the newest trunk build. That's a nice change, but I think only fighters should have gotten the better weapons, to further differentiate from gladiators

[dck]

Had the weaponry change only happened to Fi Gl would have still gotten the better weapons by a good shot.

[damiac]

What do you mean?

[and into]

Gladiators and only gladiators can start with quarterstaff, which is best starting weapon (and very good all around).

Fighters don't get that option because q staff is two-handed and having a shield is their thing.

(And gladiators being able to start with q. staff predates that commit. My version of 0.14 has fighters and gladiators alike choosing falchions, mace, etc., but gladiators have additional option to start with q. staff)

[damiac]

So then, is it a no brainer to pick GL with a quarterstaff, assuming you're doing a no-book, no-god start?

Of course, the powergamer in me demands I min-max, so I pick swords, even knowing that's going to give me a tougher start, because eventually claymores outdamage lajatangs(and all the other melee options). But I'm not playing for best win/loss ratio, I don't care if I splat 100 characters, just to get one awesome character.

But, assuming someone was more sensible than myself, would you say if you're going with a melee start, the no-brainer option would be Gladiator with a quarterstaff?

[dck]

Crossbows are better than qs and are the best weapon any background gets, if you really want an answer in those oddly specific terms.
I'd still choose different weapons depending on a number of factors, and definitely would never choose long blades because of the fact triple swords exist. Mostly because triple swords are ridiculously bad weapons and getting to the point where one provides better offense than the numerous alternatives in relevant situations results in an overall severely weaker character.

[Magipi]

triple swords are ridiculously bad weapons

Why?

[dck]

Because for half of the skill investment you could be killing things in a similar amount of time with weapons that do exist.

[damiac]

So the no-brainer is never pick swords? Or just that one shouldn't pick swords based on their final offering? I imagine your opinion of axes is even lower.

I thought Lajatangs were one of the rarest weapons in the game though. So if you go with QS, you're probably stuck with a QS throughout the game, unless you get lucky and find a lajatang.

[Hirsch I]

I think Gl should start with lajatang's, seeing that all other weapons got upgraded. you know, for simmetry.

[Lasty]

I generally see M&F as the strongest weapon class at the moment, even after the great mace nerf. In any case, not only are the final weapons for axe/sword quite rare, they're also very skill-expensive. On the other hand, great swords and demon blades are pretty great, and you can general find great swords quite early in the game.

I'm not much of a fan of axes -- I like the cleaving, but the combination of lower base damage and generally higher skill requirements means I never want to use them.

[dck]

There are no no-brainers because what would be considered a "no-brainer" depends on what you want from your character. Lbl are fine, they have good one-handers and great swords are amazing, of course they're basically just M&F but with more uncommon final base type weapons and M&F have dire flails which are -everywhere-, so there aren't that many times where Lbl are a particularly good idea compared to the competition.
Axes are indeed terrible (more so even than polearms), but that's only while comparing them to other weapon types without taking race into account; HO and DD both exist and axes are part of their own magical approach to crawl so I assume axes are not intended to be a serious option for basically every other race in the game (this is also supported by the fact cleaving doesn't do anything in the regular game), since the only good weapons they have that exist are broad axes (exceedingly rare for the offense level they offer) and battleaxes, which while still decent are worse great swords.

Lajatangs aren't very common but without checking the source I'd say floor lajs are a lot more common than floor eveningstars, claymores or bastard swords. Also Sp defenders make them more common now and Agnes still exists, so pairing that with ?acq it's very unlikely you will have to stick to your qs all game long and even if you had to, qs of elec or pain are excellent weapons forever.

[and into]

Yeah it depends on what you want out of a character. Strongest non-book non-religious start is probably Hunter with crossbow. Followed by assassin, then now with the upgrade of weaponry Fi/Gl seem comparable to artefacer but I'd have to play new Fi/Gl to confirm that. All of them are now pretty good starts though and fairly balanced. Keep in mind that different species exist, as do different skill level amongst players. Starting with a shield can help someone who is still learning the ropes survive a bit better; some species like Troll enjoy a starting shield more than other species (Fi is not strongest Troll start, either, but it is better for Troll than on other species).

So yeah, there are certain things that are better under certain conditions or assumptions, but still very few "no brainers." And for the most part the backgrounds are well enough balanced that, with exception of wanderer I suppose, "what kind of character do I feel like playing?" can be the determining factor.

[crate]

weapon types that are meaningfully different from others: short blades (also ranged but let's ignore that)
weapon types that are functionally identical: axes, maces, long blades, polearms
you can argue for staves in either category

[duvessa]

okay a few things here
1. great swords are probably more common than great maces nowadays, and usefully-branded great swords are definitely more common than usefully-branded great maces
2.

So then, is it a no brainer to pick GL with a quarterstaff

pretty much

[Sprucery]

The problem with axes is that cleaving tempts the player to fight more than one monster at a time.

[damiac]

Well, yes, I suppose if you go cleave crazy you might make some bad choices. But I love cleaving for situations where for whatever reason you can't fight in a corridor, like in the orcish mines, or early bees. I wish they hadn't disabled cleaving on confusion, that was one of the few things axes had going for them. Now it does feel like I'm taking a crappy weapon if I take axes, unless I'm a Hill orc, in which case the aptitude sort of makes up for some of that.

Well, I got a CeFi to spider 4, got banished by Luise (I thought I was wearing my ring of MR+, oops), then after many turns in the abyss, I was given the slow healing mutation and slowly beaten down. I had 36 AC, a shield of mr++, a really nice bastard sword... but 0EV. Stupid centaurs, they feel like a trap to me. The speed is so tempting, but once you get into a situation where that speed can't save you, you're just got average offense and kinda crappy defense. Maybe wearing that +3 plate armor was a mistake...

OK, next up, HO of Zin. Although for some reason I have more trouble than I should getting to temple with hill orc starts... I really need to compile the latest build, starting with a war axe instead of a hand axe would be really nice...

For starting off with a Hill orc fighter, should I focus mainly on min delay on my axe at first? Or does it make sense to train some defense or fighting before min delay?
As far as defenses, should I try to focus evenly on armour and dodging, or focus more on armor due to the apts?