Beginner friendly god that isn't trog


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Lair Larrikin

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Post Saturday, 15th March 2014, 18:52

Beginner friendly god that isn't trog

I realize Trog is pretty much perfect for beginners, he's simple to understand, he awards piety for stuff you are going to be doing anyway, and he doesn't require you to sacrifice anything you really need. His abilities make it simple to get out of most sticky situations, and best of all, you can start the dungeon with him so you are earning piety as soon as you start playing. Even the weapons he gifts seem to be consistently better than Okawaru's gifts.

The problem is, I'm really tired of playing him. I know I have no right to complain, since the farthest I've gotten is a single rune, and that was with berserkers. I am just tired of an entire pantheon just sitting in the temple, none of whom I can join because trog is too perfect to not to pick.

Are there any gods that can match trog's usefulness for beginners?
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Blades Runner

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Post Saturday, 15th March 2014, 19:01

Re: Beginner friendly god that isn't trog

No.

That said, try Okawaru, Fedhas, Vehumet or Yred.

Fedhas is quite powerful but fiddly, Yred is fun and available from the beginning, Vehumet is quite simple but geared for casters.

Also, Okawaru gifts armor and has little to no drawbacks.
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Lair Larrikin

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Post Saturday, 15th March 2014, 19:15

Re: Beginner friendly god that isn't trog

I don't care for oka very much either, He adds very few abilities, and the things he gifts rarely seem to be any better than what I find on the dungeon floor.
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Post Saturday, 15th March 2014, 19:16

Re: Beginner friendly god that isn't trog

Makhleb might be what you want. Or Ashenzari, I liked Ash a lot even when I first started but a lot of newer players don't.
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Barkeep

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Post Saturday, 15th March 2014, 19:20

Re: Beginner friendly god that isn't trog

Yeah, I'd suggest giving Makhleb or Fedhas a whirl. If you are playing trunk, Dith is lots of fun too, and strong.

Other than that, Death Knight lets you start with Yred right off the bat. If you don't find that to your liking, there's no reason not to give Lugonu a chance and try out Abyssal Knight.

Cocytus Succeeder

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Post Saturday, 15th March 2014, 19:22

Re: Beginner friendly god that isn't trog

The thing is, Trog offers a whole package that almost no other god does: a god, a background and a simple game plan ("pick up the heaviest armour, son, and I will give you an awesome weapon, go and bash everyone").

This is not common in crawl, most gods do not do this, they fit into several different backgrounds, builds, game plans.

That said, Vehumet is something similar: gives you destructive spells, and even refunds some mana for every kill. Conjurer of Veh is a good, starightforward, user-friendly build. Suggested species: draconian, gargoyle, tengu or deep elf. (Or human, Duvessa will soon suggest).

Edit: Fedhas is strong. I would not suggest Makhleb or especially Yred as a beginner-friendly god.
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Post Saturday, 15th March 2014, 19:24

Re: Beginner friendly god that isn't trog

I found survuiviving the earkly game with lucy very tricky, when I started. but also a great deal of fun. yred is good (my first win), and the plan with him can be quite straightforward. Fedhas is much stronger than I tought.
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Lair Larrikin

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Post Saturday, 15th March 2014, 19:30

Re: Beginner friendly god that isn't trog

Magipi wrote:The thing is, Trog offers a whole package that almost no other god does: a god, a background and a simple game plan ("pick up the heaviest armour, son, and I will give you an awesome weapon, go and bash everyone").

This is not common in crawl, most gods do not do this, they fit into several different backgrounds, builds, game plans.



I know, thats what frustrates me. What is the point of even picking another god when they just don't offer as complete a package?

Barkeep

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Post Saturday, 15th March 2014, 19:30

Re: Beginner friendly god that isn't trog

It really depends on what one means by "beginner friendly" I suppose. You can start the game as Yred or Lucy so in a literal sense that is "friendly to beginning." If OP wants to try out new gods there is no reason not to start a few DK or AK and see how it goes.

Can't start with Makhleb any more but he's strong and straightforward. Fedhas may look a bit overwhelming or complicated on paper, but he plays better than he seems on that score, and he's very strong.

EDIT: I dunno, "mushrooms + spores, then eventually oklobs" is a pretty complete package. As are "minions + more minions + more minions" for Yred. Fedhas and Yred have some other abilities too, of varying power and usefulness, but the above represents the core of them.

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Post Saturday, 15th March 2014, 19:41

Re: Beginner friendly god that isn't trog

and into wrote:It really depends on what one means by "beginner friendly" I suppose. You can start the game as Yred or Lucy so in a literal sense that is "friendly to beginning." If OP wants to try out new gods there is no reason not to start a few DK or AK and see how it goes.

Can't start with Makhleb any more but he's strong and straightforward. Fedhas may look a bit overwhelming or complicated on paper, but he plays better than he seems on that score, and he's very strong.

EDIT: I dunno, "mushrooms + spores, then eventually oklobs" is a pretty complete package. As are "minions + more minions + more minions" for Yred. Fedhas and Yred have some other abilities too, of varying power and usefulness, but the above represents the core of them.


With Yred, you have to continously micromanage your army, that is quite complicated and annoying. Makhleb summons can sometimes turn hostile, so he is not an easy god either.

Contrary to the two gods above, Fedhas is good and easy, but he fits into several builds (melee, ranged, spells or any combination of these) and in this sense it is "not a full package".
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Post Saturday, 15th March 2014, 19:53

Re: Beginner friendly god that isn't trog

Magipi wrote: Makhleb summons can sometimes turn hostile, so he is not an easy god either.

berserking slows you, so trog is not easy.
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Blades Runner

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Post Saturday, 15th March 2014, 20:19

Re: Beginner friendly god that isn't trog

Hirsch I wrote:
Magipi wrote: Makhleb summons can sometimes turn hostile, so he is not an easy god either.

berserking slows you, so trog is not easy.

Erm, the slow and exhaustion effects happen after it wears off so adjusting to that is not all that difficult since by then your foes should be dead. I wouldn't compare the two. Makleb is good but harder because it is less straightforward. Also as you grow in the game you realize Berserk isn't Trog's main ability just a beneficial (mostly) ability to help you. Trog's Hand and Brother in Arms are both better.

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Post Saturday, 15th March 2014, 20:24

Re: Beginner friendly god that isn't trog

Yeah, I don't really think using Makhleb's summoning well is that much steeper of learning curve than using berserk or other Trog abilities well. Trog is a starting god and is extremely strong, and though he limits choices via a conduct, he does so in a way that can actually be beneficial for people very new to the game. Obviously it takes some experience and time to learn how to use any gods to really good effect. A lot of times Trog is the first god people learn how to not suck with. If Makhleb were still a starting god people would still be recommending him very often to new players, just as folks did back when he was a starting a god. The problem is that people are less familiar with Makhleb now and confuse that with him being complicated in ways that he really isn't. (EDIT: Okay yes, how much invocations to train and when to do so is more complicated than Trog, sure.)

Anyway, Yred: Minion managing has been improved and isn't *that* bad right now, as soon as you learn a few tricks (ctrl+e sets your travel speed equal to that of your slowest ally, for instance). I feel that's more of a personal thing—some people absolutely despise having minions, some people find it tolerable, some people are actually into micromanaging them. However you don't need to micromanage to get a hell of a lot out of Yred, you just have to learn how to use allies in Crawl. Which is a good thing to learn at some point during one's self-education in DCSS.

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Post Saturday, 15th March 2014, 20:35

Re: Beginner friendly god that isn't trog

Okawaru is the second easiest god for melee builds for me. True, not many abilities but I think it is part of being friendly for new players (Oka has only 2 abilities, Trog has only 3 straightforward abilities, compare with Nemelex, for example). +100% damage with both ranged and melee is awesome, Heroism is good and easy to get and you can still use spells if you want. Also it encourages typical tactics of fighting with extremely dangerous monsters which is what new players do anyway. Gifts is just icing on the cake.

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Post Saturday, 15th March 2014, 22:01

Re: Beginner friendly god that isn't trog

Based on observation of other games, I'd say Yred, but I've never actually played him.

If you like playing bruisers (but why not try out something different?) I think Oka is good. Heroism is good and you can use it a lot. His weapons don't come close to Trog's, but you do get armour, sometimes excellent armour.

I think Fedhas is a little tricky to "get" at first. You'll want several shroom buddies, not just a couple. More like 8.

Lugonu is quite a strong god and not too complicated. Train some Invocations, you want Banish to work well. Distortion weapons are fun.
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Post Saturday, 15th March 2014, 22:10

Re: Beginner friendly god that isn't trog

Kobold of elyvilon. Healing plus an insanely powerful smite targeted love nuke, with a ***** piety power that turns you into a melee badass. Kobold means that hunger isn't a problem.

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Post Saturday, 15th March 2014, 22:51

Re: Beginner friendly god that isn't trog

If we're talking about very new players, I think Oka is best. Easy to please, gifts can be nice, and Heroism is so cheap you can just turn it on for anything that seems even remotely threatening. Trog may be more powerful overall, but berzerking is an invitation to get yourself into hot water -- especially when you're so new that most of the enemies you meet are unknown threats and you haven't internalized the basics of positioning, movement speed, etc. But you seem to be past that hump.

Thirtyeight wrote:The problem is, I'm really tired of playing him. I know I have no right to complain, since the farthest I've gotten is a single rune, and that was with berserkers. I am just tired of an entire pantheon just sitting in the temple, none of whom I can join because trog is too perfect to not to pick.


Trog is probably your best bet to win, but the best way to get there may not be simply rolling up an infinite series of Berzerkers. Playing other gods, especially ones that encourage combos you haven't tried yet, may not get you farther in the game -- but it will probably teach you things that Trog will not. Then you can go back to him feeling fresh and apply those lessons.

Ash or Dith would be my suggestions, and maybe pair them with MfIE, VpEn, or DsCj to try out some magic backgrounds. Ash's curse minigame will teach you to carefully consider what gear you need to tackle any particular branch, since you can't rely on swaps as easily; Dith will teach you about stealth and other tactics. Both give you pretty kickass passive bonuses at high piety. And playing anything without early access to a powerful panic button like berzerk will force you to become a more cautious player.
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Post Saturday, 15th March 2014, 23:10

Re: Beginner friendly god that isn't trog

If you want to win--and you don't know how to do that--Yredelemnul is the best god to do that with. Like Nemelex & Evy, Yred is a god that will win the game for you. Unlike Evy, he doesn't require learning anything new about the game to use (E.G. hunger/pacification rules becoming a relevant factor in winning). He is also much less complicated and random than Nemelex.


Magipi wrote:With Yred, you have to continously micromanage your army, that is quite complicated and annoying.


Recalling an army is extremely similar to using BiA. I don't see how hitting A -> B once is so much more complicated and annoying than hitting A -> C once or twice. If anything, it's an easier decision because Recall costs zero piety. The only other micromanage aspect to Yred is that one good gift can use weapons/armor (Ghouls). Fortunately, Ghouls are strong enough that you don't even need to care about this at all ever.
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Post Sunday, 16th March 2014, 14:25

Re: Beginner friendly god that isn't trog

Makhleb is great for beginners. Forget training ranged combat and instead train invocations to a decent level (10ish?) and you will have a powerful ranged attack and backup support in abundance. Hard fight coming? Retreat to safe spot, summon two friendly lower tier demons, and let the ass kicking begin. The distraction alone is worth it.

Keep training invocations and you will eventually get lovely first tier demons to create useful havoc no matter how far you get in the game.
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Post Sunday, 16th March 2014, 14:45

Re: Beginner friendly god that isn't trog

Ashenzari
Cheibriados(He isn't very good, but he's easy to learn, and +15 stats are fun.)
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Post Sunday, 16th March 2014, 18:01

Re: Beginner friendly god that isn't trog

Klown wrote:Ashenzari
Cheibriados(He isn't very good, but he's easy to learn, and +15 stats are fun.)
Sif Muna
Vehumet

Recommending Chei to anyone (especially to a beginner) is a crime against humanity.

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Post Sunday, 16th March 2014, 19:26

Re: Beginner friendly god that isn't trog

Abominae wrote:Like Nemelex & Evy, Yred is a god that will win the game for you.


This might be a stupid question, but how will Nemelex win the game for you? I ask because I recently splatted an SpEn of Nemelex in V:5 and your comment makes me feel like I probably wasn't using him correctly.

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Post Sunday, 16th March 2014, 19:52

Re: Beginner friendly god that isn't trog

vulsuck wrote:This might be a stupid question, but how will Nemelex win the game for you? I ask because I recently splatted an SpEn of Nemelex in V:5 and your comment makes me feel like I probably wasn't using him correctly.


What I mean by those gods "win the game for you" is that they give you consistently available, reusable tools you can use to win regardless of anything you have found in the dungeon. Decks are really strong, and they are always available. Well, at least I've never ran out any time I've worshiped Nemelex, and I use decks liberally.

I can't tell you why you died or what you did wrong though. I'm probably not the best person to ask about that.
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Post Sunday, 16th March 2014, 21:05

Re: Beginner friendly god that isn't trog

Abominae wrote:
vulsuck wrote:This might be a stupid question, but how will Nemelex win the game for you? I ask because I recently splatted an SpEn of Nemelex in V:5 and your comment makes me feel like I probably wasn't using him correctly.


What I mean by those gods "win the game for you" is that they give you consistently available, reusable tools you can use to win regardless of anything you have found in the dungeon. Decks are really strong, and they are always available. Well, at least I've never ran out any time I've worshiped Nemelex, and I use decks liberally.

I can't tell you why you died or what you did wrong though. I'm probably not the best person to ask about that.

Iding your decks regularly is important right? At least that was what I garnered from playing with him as a god a few times. (Because you really don't want to use the wrong card when your character is in danger.)
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Post Sunday, 16th March 2014, 21:08

Re: Beginner friendly god that isn't trog

Magipi wrote:
Klown wrote:Ashenzari
Cheibriados(He isn't very good, but he's easy to learn, and +15 stats are fun.)
Sif Muna
Vehumet

Recommending Chei to anyone (especially to a beginner) is a crime against humanity.


A lot of new players that play him think he's OP for their first 2 months or so, until they slowly realize he sucks. :)

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Post Sunday, 16th March 2014, 21:28

Re: Beginner friendly god that isn't trog

Magipi wrote:
Klown wrote:Ashenzari
Cheibriados(He isn't very good, but he's easy to learn, and +15 stats are fun.)
Sif Muna
Vehumet

Recommending Chei to anyone (especially to a beginner) is a crime against humanity.
Seriously. There is no worse god for learning the game than Chei. Talk about teaching bad habits.

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Post Sunday, 16th March 2014, 22:34

Re: Beginner friendly god that isn't trog

Makhleb is definitely one of the first gods I would recommend to a new player. Not only is he easy to use and strong, but he's also probably the best god to learn to use: Makhleb is one of the only gods that goes well with every single type of character. The primary competition is Nemelex, but Nemelex is not a newbie-friendly god.
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Post Monday, 17th March 2014, 03:19

Re: Beginner friendly god that isn't trog

Have you considered Vehumet? It sounds like your main problem with Trog is that you're bored with her, in which case a complete flip to an entirely different playing style may be exactly what you want. Playing a fire or ice elementalist may not be quite as easy as a berserker, but it's still going to be pretty easy, and Vehumet's passive abilities are pretty easy to enjoy. Her spell gifts even work somewhat like Trog's weapon gifts, in that you may not get exactly what you want but you're guaranteed that whatever you get will at least be good. Experimenting with the magic side of the game will also make you more aware of what a Trog character gives up, which means that trying out one of those other melee deities will suddenly start feeling a whole lot more palatable.

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Post Monday, 17th March 2014, 03:41

Re: Beginner friendly god that isn't trog

Isn't kiku an ok god even for a beginner? Pain brand is quite awesome and most 3-rune(or 4) game monsters can be easily killed with it. Or you can send undead armies at your foes. If you train enough of necromancy you get some strongest emergency spells eventually and kiku even protects you from miscasts. You don't want to fail those too much, though.

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Post Monday, 17th March 2014, 06:09

Re: Beginner friendly god that isn't trog

Honestly, my advice is probably to experiment and have fun. My first win was with Nemelex, who everyone agrees is not at all a beginner god, and my current character is a Kiku-worshipper who has 13 runes and has stood on the orb of Zot. You're asking why you'd ever play a god other than Trog when he's such a complete package. The answer is fun. Trog is probably the easiest god to win with, but you're bored of him, so try something else. If Oka or Trog melee-ers are boring to you, experiment with other styles until you find one you like. Just because a berserker's the easiest class to win with doesn't mean it has to be your first. It may take a bit more work to get the hang of other gods, but once you do maybe you'll enjoy them more. My Kiku character is the first time Kiku's style has ever really "clicked" with me, but now that I get it I love it.

Amnesiac wrote:Isn't kiku an ok god even for a beginner? Pain brand is quite awesome and most 3-rune(or 4) game monsters can be easily killed with it. Or you can send undead armies at your foes. If you train enough of necromancy you get some strongest emergency spells eventually and kiku even protects you from miscasts. You don't want to fail those too much, though.


I'm currently playing a Kiku worshipper with 13 runes, my second character ever to even get one rune (the other being a GrFi of Nemelex who got a 3 rune win mostly due to amazing equipment), so based on that experience I'd say he's not that hard, although I did get some nice equipment early on that helped out. Request corpses, animate dead, bolt of draining (which can shoot through undead minions), and a staff of energy were enough to carry me through pretty much everything up to Zot. Building up an army is probably a bit more complicated than Yred, but the endless supply of corpses, access to other necromancy spells (bolt of draining is great for killing things, plus all the utility necro provides), and a pain weapon are very nice.

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Post Monday, 17th March 2014, 15:30

Re: Beginner friendly god that isn't trog

In terms of gods that make a good transition from Trog for a new player, I would recommend (in approx this order):
* Makhleb. Heal-on-kills is both good and newbie-friendly; it introduces the concept of Invocations without being complex; the Destruction abilities are a way to start thinking about managing ranged attack resources; the Demon summons are a lot like BiA.
* Yredelemnul. Aside from being fiddly, Yred is incredibly strong and teaches ally management. Both the raise dead power and the ally gifts will keep people alive in a lot of the same ways that BiA does, and Drain Life is an exciting spell-like power. This isn't quite as recommended as Makhleb because despite the power level, it takes a little more experience to figure out how to best use the allies to be near-invincible, and newer players are (I think) less likely to use Injury Mirror well.
* Fedhas. Fedhas's mushrooms will shepherd you through the early game very effectively, and oklobs are both fun and incredibly powerful; Fedhas is low maintenance, has no piety decay, and gives its best abilities at low piety; Fedhas abilities like Sunlight, Reproduction, and Rain are a bit like Spellcasting Lite.
* Okawaru. Oka will feel familiar, but worse: Oka gifts things (though its gifts will disappoint those used to Trog), and Oka gives powerful, simple invocations, though not as obviously powerful as those of Trog.
* TSO. While TSO gains piety slowly, it (eventually) gives powerful summons and damaging invocations, and it is straight-forward. It is not powerful in the early game the way the others are, but I think new players will understand it.

Gods that other recommended, but that I would not recommend for new players:
* Vehumet. Veh is clear and straight-forward, but it offers no way to bail out someone who is in over their head. Players used to having BiA and Trog's Hand available will find themselves unexpectedly defenseless in a crisis.
* Nemelex. While powerful, Nemelex is absurdly fiddly, complex, and spoilery.
* Kiku. I get the impression that new players generally take a while to understand how to play necromancy in particular.
* Dith. Dith offers great passive support, but new players are unlikely to notice how effective that support is. Dith offers a strong invocation at piety/Invo, but understanding how gain Invo to use it and when to use it is probably confusing.
* Chei. C'mon, now, this just feels mean.

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Post Monday, 17th March 2014, 15:36

Re: Beginner friendly god that isn't trog

I would personally recommend Vehumet as a straightforward god.
It has this simple conduit - "kil'em'all" and he will help with spellcasting very much like trog is helping with melee fights

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Post Monday, 17th March 2014, 19:33

Re: Beginner friendly god that isn't trog

I notice people mentioning the god they used for their first win. I think it's important to make a distinction here from a design perspective between genuinely new players(especially those new to roguelikes in general) and players who are actually, from a realistic standpoint, gunning for a win. By the time you actually gather three runes and escape with the Orb, you aren't exactly a Crawl newbie anymore.

With that in mind, I agree that Trog is simply the best god for a genuinely new player, hands down. He has simple conduct - kill all the dudes, sac their corpses, his abilities don't require juggling Invo training and have straightforward applications, and so on. The only other god that comes close to this simplicity is Okawaru, and even he's made more complicated by comparison by requiring some degree of Invo to make Finesse reliable.

Another important point Trog has going in his favor for teaching new players is actually one of his drawbacks - he forbids spellcasting, the training meta of which is much, much more complex than of a 'standard' melee build. This is why I think he's overall better for a new player than, say, Vehumet, because Vehumet invariably expects you to still juggle training in regards to spells and understand the mechanics therein.

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