animate skeleton

[Laraso]

I thought animate skeleton was a butchering tool that you use to when you're wanting to butcher a corpse in one turn and get a weak minion as a bonus, whereas animate dead is the spell you use when your priority is actually raising the dead and making minions.

I've only ever viewed them as loosely related, somewhat-but-not-quite similar spells, because unlike repel missils > deflect missiles, animate dead is not strictly better than animate skeleton and even after you get animate dead you will continue to use animate skeleton as a butchering tool.

[dck]

The main point of animate skeleton isn't to be a "butchering tool" but to create skeletons.

[Velikolepni]

I thought animate skeleton was a butchering tool that you use to when you're wanting to butcher a corpse in one turn and get a weak minion as a bonus, whereas animate dead is the spell you use when your priority is actually raising the dead and making minions.

I a way you are correct and that is one of the reasons that people often have both memorized. Still, it is clear from the effects that Animate Skeleton is a "weaker" single target version of Animate Dead. In particular, Yredelemnul's ability Animate Remains works like Animate Skeleton at low piety and like Animate Dead at high. It thus makes sense to me that, from a "lore" point of view, a mage that has mastered one of the spells should find it easier to remember the other one.

[rchandra]

The main point of animate skeleton isn't to be a "butchering tool" but to create skeletons.

Sometimes you have Simulacrum, and then that use really shines. Of course this is not the "main point" since it is a synergy with a level 6 dual-school spell, but it's nice to have in the endgame for that.

[dck]

yes I know but it's pretty ridiculous to call it the main point of the spell when the spell clearly exists to create skeletons.

[damiac]

Maybe before you could butcher with blunt weapons in hand that was effectively the main point of the spell.
Now it's just a nice benefit.

[dck]

The main point of the spell that creates skeletons has always been to create fucking skeletons even if it could be used for weird stuff.

[and into]

Of all level 1 spells, Animate skeleton is probably the strongest and most potentially impactful/game changing, especially when gotten on an early character. Thinking that this has anything to do with butchering is strange.

Anyway as far as game design is concerned I think Lasty hit the nail on the head as to why Delayed Fireball is different.

I'll often take one of the first few gifts, particularly if I get an early Veh altar. I won't take all of them, of course, but its really nice for an elementalist to pick up a bit of early variety. Some like magic dart due to range (you are almost certainly training conj. anyway), for IE it is nice to get something like sandblast cheaply to deal with ice beasts and undead, etc.

[Laraso]

OK look people, when you cast Animate Dead, you get a handful of zombies but no corpses to butcher. So if you're just going around and raising every corpse from the dead, you're going to starve to death (if you're not a mummy). However, if you go around butchering every corpse you see, you're not going to have anything left over to make zombies. That is where Animate Skeleton comes into the picture. You use it when you're hungry to butcher a corpse but still get a minion (albeit a weaker skeleton and not a zombie). Animate Skeleton is ideal for this because it doesn't effect every corpse in sight, it only affects a single corpse on the tile you're standing on. When you're not hungry but want minions, you use Animate Dead because you only have to cast it once and every single corpse in the entire area gets raised from the dead, including corpses that don't have skeletons and thus can't be raised via Animate Skeleton. I don't know about you guys, but I can't think of a single situation where I'd rather have a skeleton than a zombie, so in every case where I'm going to raise the dead but I don't need food, I'm going to be using Animate Dead, not Animate Skeleton.

So really when you think about it Animate Skeleton is just a better, fancier, more efficient way to butcher corpses.

[dck]

So rations do not exist and neither do the stages of the game where you don't have access to animate dead.

[Laraso]

Are you arguing with me just for the sake of arguing with me now? Rations are not a substitute for chunks, and if you go around eating rations all the time instead of butchering corpses (*cough*Animate Skeleton*cough*), you're going to waste chunks when you have them and starve to death when you don't.

And obviously you can't use Animate Dead if you don't have it, in which case you use Animate Skeleton. Once you get Animate Dead, you're only going to be using Animate Skeleton to butcher corpses. In either case, you're butchering corpses when you use Animate Skeleton, and the fact that the spell is called "Animate Skeleton" and not "Butcher Corpses" is irrelevant. Even if you don't have Animate Dead, you're going to always be using Animate Skeleton to butcher everything that has bones.

[crate]

really animate skeleton shouldn't be a level 1 spell because it's pretty hideously overpowered compared to other level 1 spells anyway

[and into]

OK look people, when you cast Animate Dead, you get a handful of zombies but no corpses to butcher. So if you're just going around and raising every corpse from the dead, you're going to starve to death (if you're not a mummy). However, if you go around butchering every corpse you see, you're not going to have anything left over to make zombies. That is where Animate Skeleton comes into the picture. You use it when you're hungry to butcher a corpse but still get a minion (albeit a weaker skeleton and not a zombie). Animate Skeleton is ideal for this because it doesn't effect every corpse in sight, it only affects a single corpse on the tile you're standing on. When you're not hungry but want minions, you use Animate Dead because you only have to cast it once and every single corpse in the entire area gets raised from the dead, including corpses that don't have skeletons and thus can't be raised via Animate Skeleton. I don't know about you guys, but I can't think of a single situation where I'd rather have a skeleton than a zombie, so in every case where I'm going to raise the dead but I don't need food, I'm going to be using Animate Dead, not Animate Skeleton.

So really when you think about it Animate Skeleton is just a better, fancier, more efficient way to butcher corpses.

This is really wrong and I don't know where to begin, but since this is GDD I'll just say that animate skeleton and animate dead are very well designed as currently implemented, although animate skeleton is extremely powerful for its investment. But I feel that the Ne background justifies it as level 1 to some extent. Anyway the two animate spells work nicely on their own, in combination, without further necromancy usage, or as part of several necromantic spells.

I don't think saving on spell slots should be a thing with the spells listed in OP, because spell slots would become less valuable and spell sets even more homogenized, as dpeg pointed out. I'd also advise being careful about making ?amnesia too rare; yes, destroying book for spell forgetting can be an interesting decision, but on the other hand, I don't think it would be good to penalize too harshly experimentation with different sets of magic. Make ?amnesia too rare, and it will retrench people in focusing on a certain "set" of magic spells that they believe to be ideal.

[Laraso]

This is really wrong

How is it wrong? Are you telling me you're not supposed to butcher things with Animate Skeleton? In what situation would you butcher a non-boneless corpse the normal way if you have Animate Skeleton memorized, and in what situation would you use Animate Skeleton over Animate Dead when not hungry?

[damiac]

Well, the power of animate skeleton is highly dependant on the skeleton being animated. So on D1, it's not as powerful as it is on Z5.

And yeah, I've played a necromancer and used animate dead/animate skeleton exactly as Laraso described. I am willing to bet Dck doesn't just raise absolutely every corpse and just eat permafood once he gets that spell either.

So if you're hungry, you can either butcher the corpse and not get a skeleton, or cast animate skeleton, and get the chunks and the skeleton. One of these is obviously the better option.

EDIT: OOps, I meant Laraso, not Lasty

[Laraso]

And yeah, I've played a necromancer and used animate dead/animate skeleton exactly as Lasty described.

Lasty didn't talk about that though.

[dck]

I normally don't play with minions unless it's something that really needs them because minions are in general fucking awful to have around and overpowered at all points and in all of their skelly/zombie/simulacrum stages, with the exception of dchan which is still strong as hell but at least doesn't get the orb by itself like simulacra.
I eat a shitload of permafood on basically all of my characters and almost never butcher things, and I've played a load of characters this way, many of them using spells with high hunger costs for basically the whole game.

There exists zero fucking risk of starvation unless you go looking for it and if you want to raise every corpse you can do it and your bread won't suddenly disintegrate.

[Laraso]

I eat a shitload of permafood on basically all of my characters and almost never butcher things, and I've played a load of characters this way, many of them using spells with high hunger costs for basically the whole game

Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should. Why would you eat permafood when you can just butcher chunks, especially if you say you don't even use minions which would mean you don't use Animate Dead, either. So I see no reason why you would actually bother to just eat through your permafood and ignore chunks. (And it doesn't make what I said about Animate Skeleton any less true)

[dck]

The reason would be I can just eat some bread once or twice and then not care about it again until hunger shows up again to remind me it's time to hit ee again so I can continue not caring.

[Laraso]

The reason would be I can just eat some bread once or twice and then not care about it again until hunger shows up again to remind me it's time to hit ee again so I can continue not caring.

  Code:

easy_eat_chunks        = true
easy_eat_gourmand      = true
easy_eat_contaminated  = true
auto_eat_chunks        = true
auto_drop_chunks       = rotten

Just add that to your config, and you'll never have to press "ee" again. Those five lines make the food clock essentially invisible until you get into the situation where you don't have chunks, and you actually need to eat your permafood.

[Lasty]

So really when you think about it Animate Skeleton is just a better, fancier, more efficient way to butcher corpses.

So when you think about it, Fire Storm is just a better, fancier, less efficient way to Summon Butterflies.

By which I mean, when you ignore almost everything about two spells that have one thing in common, including spell level and context, you end up reaching very silly conclusions.

[Amnesiac]

confirm_butcher = never

[damiac]

When I play, I only play as ogres. I don't use a weapon, armor, or shield, and I don't eat anything at all. I always go ash, and I only train spellcasting, if I max it out I transfer the XP back and forth to make room for more training in spellcasting. How do I get piety? Shut up, that's how. I win every game I play, also Zot5 is the easiest part of the game.

Oh my god! The internet fact checker let me write stuff down that isn't true!

[Laraso]

So really when you think about it Animate Skeleton is just a better, fancier, more efficient way to butcher corpses.

So when you think about it, Fire Storm is just a better, fancier, less efficient way to Summon Butterflies.

By which I mean, when you ignore almost everything about two spells that have one thing in common, including spell level and context, you end up reaching very silly conclusions.

That's a terrible analogy and let me explain why:

1. Firestorm is a level nine spell, Animate Skeleton and Summon Butterflies are both level one spells.
2. Firestorm is a destructive conjuration spell and people don't use it exclusively just for the fire vortexes, at any point in the game. Animate Skeleton is used to make skeletons, but becomes almost exclusively used for butchering if you have Animate Dead or better, and Summon Butterflies only summons butterflies and so that's the only thing anyone will ever use it for.
3. Yes, ignoring spell level and context is exactly what you just did and it's why your analogy seems silly, but if you bothered to think about it even for just a moment it shouldn't be hard to understand why Animate Skeleton is a butchering tool first and a minion maker second. Just because you make some stupid claim that obviously isn't true doesn't suddenly invalidate everything I said.

confirm_butcher = never

That's a good one, thanks. I'm adding that to my config.

[dck]

@Laraso: Or I can continue ignoring the settings I already know about and continue not caring about food in crawl since there is no reason to care about food in crawl.
Anyway, this whole discussion is stupid to levels frankly worrying and has nothing to do with the OP's proposal.
Addressing that, I think it would be horrible to give the dfball treatment to other spells, that he is oversimplifying spells' usage and that the dfball treatment is actually really bad and if anything were to be done about it I'd see prefer seeing dfball become an unthing completely than having more out of combat spells.

[and into]

This is really wrong

How is it wrong? Are you telling me you're not supposed to butcher things with Animate Skeleton? In what situation would you butcher a non-boneless corpse the normal way if you have Animate Skeleton memorized, and in what situation would you use Animate Skeleton over Animate Dead when not hungry?

Well the thread is already derailed, which is what I wanted to avoid. I'll try to be brief and apologize to OP, but maybe if I can clear this up then something good will come of it:

1.) There are lots of things to do with chunks using necromancy other than eating. Really the whole question of hunger is a red herring and a distraction to talking about how to use these spells, which is dck's main point.

2.) The differences between a level 1 necromancy spell and a level 4 necromancy spell are not trivial for many characters. Even if you have access to animate dead, it may be reasonable (or even possible) only to cast animate skeleton.

Okay this one isn't brief sorry:

3.) Aside from the irrelevance of hunger, raising every single thing you kill as either a skeleton or a zombie is just poor minion management. It actually isn't the case that getting more minions is always better. Getting more strong zombies or skeletons is *almost* always better (but even then not strictly, always better). Weak minions can sometimes distract a dude for a turn, yes, but too many weak minions can stop your hill giant zombies from getting in hits and killing stuff, including perhaps stuff that can cast spells like lightning bolt that can hit you and your stronger minions, the latter of which are having trouble killing the enemy because a rat skeleton you brought into your service in late dungeon for inscrutable reasons is blocking the way. Especially if you are casting recall, you want to make sure that nearly all the stuff you bring in is tough and can actually tank the stuff you are fighting. But if a bunch of your hobgoblin skeletons are roaming around on the level, those might be placed in the most critical spots when recalled and put you in a very bad position. So yeah there are plenty of times when I would butcher a corpse rather than raising it—basically any time I want chunks but feel that raising the skeleton would actually *weaken* rather than strengthen the effectiveness of the minions I have on the floor.

This is sticking just to use of minions and ignoring more obvious concerns. If an ally of mine is going to block my direct line to an enemy (thus stopping the vast majority of ranged offensive effects in the game) I want that ally to be at least reasonably strong with respect to the enemy it is fighting, unless I am in full retreat. Really weak skeles/zombies actually *weaken* you when you are not in full retreat.

[Lasty]

Animate Skeleton is a butchering tool first and a minion maker second.

My analogy to your assertion was silly because it ignored a lot of obvious context. Your assertion is also silly because it ignores a lot of context. In the specific context of characters that have both spells, can easily cast both, and mostly cast the latter, then yes, this statement is more or less true. There are a lot of other contexts where this statement is completely false. You know that, you've now even acknowledged those many other contexts, and yet you still write this statement that, considering the range of contexts that exist, is only marginally less silly than comparing Firestorm to Summon Butterflies.

[damiac]

[quote="and into]
3.) Aside from the irrelevance of hunger, raising every single thing you kill as either a skeleton or a zombie is just poor minion management. It actually isn't the case that getting more minions is always better. Getting more strong zombies or skeletons is *almost* always better (but even then not strictly, always better). Weak minions can sometimes distract a dude for a turn, yes, but too many weak minions can stop your hill giant zombies from getting in hits and killing stuff, including perhaps stuff that can cast spells like lightning bolt that can hit you and your stronger minions, the latter of which are having trouble killing the enemy because a rat skeleton you brought into your service in late dungeon for inscrutable reasons is blocking the way. Especially if you are casting recall, you want to make sure that nearly all the stuff you bring in is tough and can actually tank the stuff you are fighting. But if a bunch of your hobgoblin skeletons are roaming around on the level, those might be placed in the most critical spots when recalled and put you in a very bad position. So yeah there are plenty of times when I would butcher a corpse rather than raising it—basically any time I want chunks but feel that raising the skeleton would actually *weaken* rather than strengthen the effectiveness of the minions I have on the floor.[/quote]

That's a very interesting point, and a good argument for why you shouldn't just raise everything. But in situations where you don't already have a giant army on the floor, such as when you first enter the floor, then a skeleton is better than nothing at all. Or a skeleton and some simulacra. If you're playing a character who is focusing on necromancy, you will not be using animate skeleton for the main purpose of raising a skeleton. That is to say, if animate skeleton didn't create chunks, those necromancers wouldn't use it at all, therefore at that point its main purpose is to create chunks, with the side benefit of creating a weak minion.

[Laraso]

My analogy to your assertion was silly because it ignored a lot of obvious context. Your assertion is also silly because it ignores a lot of context. In the specific context of characters that have both spells, can easily cast both, and mostly cast the latter, then yes, this statement is more or less true. There are a lot of other contexts where this statement is completely false. You know that, you've now even acknowledged those many other contexts, and yet you still write this statement that, considering the range of contexts that exist, is only marginally less silly than comparing Firestorm to Summon Butterflies.

I acknowledged that if you don't have Animate Dead but do have Animate Skeleton, then you're going to be using Animate Skeleton primarily for making minions, not butchering (although you'll still use it to butcher corpses so nothing changes there). I think that should be extremely obvious, because you can't possibly use Animate Dead if you don't have it. I've been saying that this entire time and my whole argument about Animate Skeleton being a butchering tool implies that a player has both Animate Dead and Animate Skeleton memorized at the same time.

I mentioned it because when I have Animate Dead and Animate Skeleton, I'm going to be using Animate Dead in every situation that doesn't involve me being hungry. Even if I am hungry, I'm only going to use Animate Skeleton on one corpse and then use Animate Dead on all of the rest. So once I get Animate Dead, Animate Skeleton gets a whole different purpose, and it's for that reason that I don't think it should be grouped with the other spells in the OP's list. (EDIT: Er, well I suppose I'm the OP now, so... nevermind.)

1.) There are lots of things to do with chunks using necromancy other than eating. Really the whole question of hunger is a red herring and a distraction to talking about how to use these spells, which is dck's main point.

It's not a red herring at all. When my character is hungry, he's hungry, and ignoring that doesn't make the problem go away. So if I'm going to butcher a corpse to solve the problem and make my hunger go away, I'd rather do it with Animate Skeleton than do it normally, because Animate Skeleton only takes one turn and gives you free minions. Yes, obviously necromancy isn't about eating, and I never said or even implied that it was, so I don't know where you're coming from with that.

2.) The differences between a level 1 necromancy spell and a level 4 necromancy spell are not trivial for many characters. Even if you have access to animate dead, it may be reasonable (or even possible) only to cast animate skeleton.

There's not much of a difference between not being able to cast something and not having something memorized. In either case, you're not going to be casting the spell, so I thought it would be assumed that I was talking about having both castable. Yes, obviously if you can't cast animate dead, you're going to be using Animate Skeleton. However, if you have it memorized then I should assume you plan on getting Animate Dead online at some point (and if you don't then why did you even memorize it), and once that happens Animate Skeleton becomes a butchering tool.

3.) Aside from the irrelevance of hunger, raising every single thing you kill as either a skeleton or a zombie is just poor minion management. It actually isn't the case that getting more minions is always better. Getting more strong zombies or skeletons is *almost* always better (but even then not strictly, always better). Weak minions can sometimes distract a dude for a turn, yes, but too many weak minions can stop your hill giant zombies from getting in hits and killing stuff, including perhaps stuff that can cast spells like lightning bolt that can hit you and your stronger minions, the latter of which are having trouble killing the enemy because a rat skeleton you brought into your service in late dungeon for inscrutable reasons is blocking the way. Especially if you are casting recall, you want to make sure that nearly all the stuff you bring in is tough and can actually tank the stuff you are fighting. But if a bunch of your hobgoblin skeletons are roaming around on the level, those might be placed in the most critical spots when recalled and put you in a very bad position. So yeah there are plenty of times when I would butcher a corpse rather than raising it—basically any time I want chunks but feel that raising the skeleton would actually *weaken* rather than strengthen the effectiveness of the minions I have on the floor.

I never said that you should raise every single monster you ever kill ever, so I don't understand how this has anything to do with Animate Skeleton. Butchering isn't done so often that it has to be done to every single enemy you kill, and having one or two rat skeletons in a group of five hill giant zombies isn't really that big of a problem. I can see how having lots of them could get in the way, but really if you're only butchering when you need to then there shouldn't be much need for concern. Your weak rat skeleton is going to bite the dust long before your hill giant zombie comes close to dying.

[dck]

for one happy minute I really thought this thread was gone and not just split into advice.

[Magipi]

for one happy minute I really thought this thread was gone and not just split into advice.

I figured it must have been cut from another thread and transported here, because the opening post makes absolutely no sense like this, out of context.

[and into]

A really weak ally can only serve the purpose of getting in the way. That can be good in some cases, not good in others. A couple of "harmless" rat skeletons can block your line of attack with majority of ranged attack options in the game (most hexes, non-beam/bolt effects or spells, etc.) so you probably shouldn't raise them if they aren't going to actually help you.

For necromancers, whether to butcher, use animate skeleton, or use animate dead is part of resource management for corpses and if you are playing reasonably then there will be different reasons to use each of them in different combinations. Butchering doesn't become useless, because there are situations in which I want chunks (to eat or to use for sublimation of blood or for simulacrum or just to generate a hide) without getting a skeleton. The only way to get chunks without generating a skeleton is butchering.

[ggoDeye]

The reason would be I can just eat some bread once or twice and then not care about it again until hunger shows up again to remind me it's time to hit ee again so I can continue not caring.

  Code:

easy_eat_chunks        = true
easy_eat_gourmand      = true
easy_eat_contaminated  = true
auto_eat_chunks        = true
auto_drop_chunks       = rotten

Just add that to your config, and you'll never have to press "ee" again. Those five lines make the food clock essentially invisible until you get into the situation where you don't have chunks, and you actually need to eat your permafood.

Thank you for this.

[Laraso]

A really weak ally can only serve the purpose of getting in the way. That can be good in some cases, not good in others. A couple of "harmless" rat skeletons can block your line of attack with majority of ranged attack options in the game (most hexes, non-beam/bolt effects or spells, etc.) so you probably shouldn't raise them if they aren't going to actually help you.

For necromancers, whether to butcher, use animate skeleton, or use animate dead is part of resource management for corpses and if you are playing reasonably then there will be different reasons to use each of them in different combinations. Butchering doesn't become useless, because there are situations in which I want chunks (to eat or to use for sublimation of blood or for simulacrum or just to generate a hide) without getting a skeleton. The only way to get chunks without generating a skeleton is butchering.

Well, I suppose that is true. That doesn't mean you *have* to always use Animate Skeleton instead of normal butchering in every situation. If you don't want to resurrect a rat, then don't. However, Animate Skeleton still gets relegated to butcher duty when Animated Dead is present. Even if you don't use Animate Skeleton in place of butchering every single time, you're not going to be using it for the sake of raising skeletons if you can instead raise zombies.

[rchandra]

What about inner flame/ LRD for your skeletons? Can't do that with zombies :)
(has anybody ever found that combination useful? Inner flame alone on undead is occasionally useful, but often a pain for your other skeletons/zombies )

[and into]

In my experience, LRD + skeletons is better than inner flame + skeletons, but I suspect that's just because LRD >> Inner Flame.

[Sar]

Well unlike dck I do use AS to butcher sometimes, being a starvemaster and all (but actually 1-turn combat butchering for Simulacrum is more important and relevant). However, in no way this is "the main purpose of the spell". The main purpose is, as people mentioned, to turn things into disposable permanent allies. I remember having some character who had AS but not AD and used AS until endgame to turn every other giant, hydra and dragon into a bunch of (sometimes off-screen) damage. You wouldn't believe how many dangerous things that level 1 butchering tool can kill.

[Laraso]

I remember having some character who had AS but not AD

I don't understand what I'm doing wrong, I can't get anyone to understand that I'm saying AS is a butchering tool for characters who have AD.

[and into]

Well, I suppose that is true. That doesn't mean you *have* to always use Animate Skeleton instead of normal butchering in every situation. If you don't want to resurrect a rat, then don't. However, Animate Skeleton still gets relegated to butcher duty when Animated Dead is present. Even if you don't use Animate Skeleton in place of butchering every single time, you're not going to be using it for the sake of raising skeletons if you can instead raise zombies.

Unless you want something to LRD, or unless you want a mix of chunks and a minion. If you use it for chunks + minion, it isn't just a "butchering tool," and if *all* you want to do is butcher—especially for purposes of food—then you should just use the butchering "spell" that all characters already have, the c key.

I don't understand what I'm doing wrong, I can't get anyone to understand that I'm saying AS is a butchering tool for characters who have AD.

I dunno man, it feels like you keep shifting the goal posts in terms of what you mean by "AS is butchering tool once you have AD."

If what you mean by that is, "When you have AS and AD, AS retains use not only in niche combinations like AS + LRD, but also as a way to get a minion *and* chunks at same time, quickly, which can sometimes be a better move especially in conjunction with other necromancy spells like simulacrum or sub of blood"... Then yeah I don't disagree. But that's not what I would call just a "butchering tool." With different combinations of spells AS lets you use corpses to their maximum effect which is nice for necromancers, and unlike chunk usage for purposes of satiation (which was strangely what you emphasized initially) being able to get the chunks faster via AS actually matters if you are trying to regain MP fast with sub of blood or bring out some icy kill machines ASAP.