Lasty wrote:My analogy to your assertion was silly because it ignored a lot of obvious context. Your assertion is also silly because it ignores a lot of context. In the specific context of characters that have both spells, can easily cast both, and mostly cast the latter, then yes, this statement is more or less true. There are a lot of other contexts where this statement is completely false. You know that, you've now even acknowledged those many other contexts, and yet you still write this statement that, considering the range of contexts that exist, is only marginally less silly than comparing Firestorm to Summon Butterflies.
I acknowledged that if you don't have Animate Dead but do have Animate Skeleton, then you're going to be using Animate Skeleton primarily for making minions, not butchering (although you'll still use it to butcher corpses so nothing changes there). I think that should be extremely obvious, because you can't possibly use Animate Dead if you don't have it. I've been saying that this entire time and my whole argument about Animate Skeleton being a butchering tool implies that a player has both Animate Dead and Animate Skeleton memorized at the same time.
I mentioned it because when I have Animate Dead and Animate Skeleton, I'm going to be using Animate Dead in every situation that doesn't involve me being hungry. Even if I am hungry, I'm only going to use Animate Skeleton on one corpse and then use Animate Dead on all of the rest. So once I get Animate Dead, Animate Skeleton gets a whole different purpose, and it's for that reason that I don't think it should be grouped with the other spells in the OP's list. (EDIT: Er, well I suppose I'm the OP now, so... nevermind.)
and into wrote:1.) There are lots of things to do with chunks using necromancy other than eating. Really the whole question of hunger is a red herring and a distraction to talking about how to use these spells, which is dck's main point.
It's not a red herring at all. When my character is hungry,
he's hungry, and ignoring that doesn't make the problem go away. So if I'm going to butcher a corpse to solve the problem and make my hunger go away, I'd rather do it with Animate Skeleton than do it normally, because Animate Skeleton only takes one turn and gives you free minions. Yes, obviously necromancy isn't about eating, and I never said or even implied that it was, so I don't know where you're coming from with that.
and into wrote:2.) The differences between a level 1 necromancy spell and a level 4 necromancy spell are not trivial for many characters. Even if you have access to animate dead, it may be reasonable (or even possible) only to cast animate skeleton.
There's not much of a difference between not being able to cast something and not having something memorized. In either case, you're not going to be casting the spell, so I thought it would be assumed that I was talking about having both castable. Yes, obviously if you can't cast animate dead, you're going to be using Animate Skeleton. However, if you have it memorized then I should assume you plan on getting Animate Dead online at some point (and if you don't then why did you even memorize it), and once that happens Animate Skeleton becomes a butchering tool.
and into wrote:3.) Aside from the irrelevance of hunger, raising every single thing you kill as either a skeleton or a zombie is just poor minion management. It actually isn't the case that getting more minions is always better. Getting more strong zombies or skeletons is *almost* always better (but even then not strictly, always better). Weak minions can sometimes distract a dude for a turn, yes, but too many weak minions can stop your hill giant zombies from getting in hits and killing stuff, including perhaps stuff that can cast spells like lightning bolt that can hit you and your stronger minions, the latter of which are having trouble killing the enemy because a rat skeleton you brought into your service in late dungeon for inscrutable reasons is blocking the way. Especially if you are casting recall, you want to make sure that nearly all the stuff you bring in is tough and can actually tank the stuff you are fighting. But if a bunch of your hobgoblin skeletons are roaming around on the level, those might be placed in the most critical spots when recalled and put you in a very bad position. So yeah there are plenty of times when I would butcher a corpse rather than raising it—basically any time I want chunks but feel that raising the skeleton would actually *weaken* rather than strengthen the effectiveness of the minions I have on the floor.
I never said that you should raise every single monster you ever kill ever, so I don't understand how this has anything to do with Animate Skeleton. Butchering isn't done so often that it has to be done to every single enemy you kill, and having one or two rat skeletons in a group of five hill giant zombies isn't really that big of a problem. I can see how having lots of them could get in the way, but really if you're only butchering when you need to then there shouldn't be much need for concern. Your weak rat skeleton is going to bite the dust long before your hill giant zombie comes close to dying.