Usefullness of ranged weapons on a melee character?

[LIX]

Hey, everyone. New guy here. Playing 0.13.

I'm currently trying to finish game for the first time with a melee character. MiBe or MiFi of Trog - not much difference. I've been reading some threads here and I've got impression that ranged weapons are rather useful even for otherwise heavy melee champion. So far I've tried throwing weapons and slings and none of them really had impact on my game - or at least I didn't feel so. About the best use of ranged weapons for me was killing electric eels when I had no rElec, and sirens. (God, do I hate sirens.) Most of the time though at best they're making my life a little bit more convenient (finishing off fleeing low hp enemies), at worst - just take slots in my inventory.

Here's the problem as I perceive it:
If I encounter easy opponent(s) switching to and from ranged weapon is but a hassle since I can as well just tab my way through them.
If I encounter a dangerous ranged opponent I don't want to engage in a shootout since they will outdamage me/flood me with summons/banish.
If I encounter a dangerous melee opponent I can't deal significant amount of damage before they get in melee range anyway, kiting isn't really an option unless I have boots of speed and most of the time I can just go berserk anyway.
On top of that with my ranged skill around 8 or so Trog starts to send a lot of ammuntion which I don't really use.

So the questions are:
Does a melee character need a ranged weapon for a modest 3-4 rune run?
Which kind then? Slings with shield otherwise something else? Is throwing useful at all past Lair?
Is a standard +1-3 (branded?) weapon good enough or do need an artifact?
And while we're at that - any particular brand?
How high should I level my ranged skill?
Screw it Imma get me some wands?

Sorry if was already asked. (Meh, 'course is was).
Tried to search this forum and skimmed through the first 3 pages. Thanks in advance guys.

[Senban]

While having powerful ranged weapons with highly invested skills isn't important, having a viable throwing weapon to hand is somewhere between indispensable and worth the inventory slot. A decent javelin (steel or branded) and about level 5 throwing skill will take out a fleeing dragon, intercept spores and so on. Also when melee only enemies are closing your turns are likely best spent softening them up. Nets are also well worth being able to use reliably, even when they only last 1 turn getting to the stairs with a space between you and the hungry, hungry hydras is always nice.

Crossbows are also great fun with 0 skill, because you tend to miss the first couple of guys in the que you can often take out orc priests and wizards with them while their minions press their faces against your shield.

[Wahaha]

You don't need a ranged weapon at all, if you want to play a MiBe and smack things in melee. It's a waste of time. Note that ranged weapons are very strong for characters that want to use a ranged weapon a lot. But if you're considering a ranged weapon as a backup to melee, and you are, then don't get one. If you want some kind of backup to melee, training evocations to 5-10 is a better idea, but still something I usually wouldn't do.

There's one situation that you missed: an easy to kill enemy that does bad things from range: boggart, moth of wrath, tormentor. This is the situation where ranged damage is possibly useful (or you could just walk away). It's still not that helpful especially for the first two and tormentors don't exist in a 3-4 rune.

In the first half of the game you can carry lots of wands, they do good ranged damage at this point for no investment. Later in the game I usually carry one or two wands of fire/ice for ranged damage, and usually never use them. I also carry a wand of fireball just for boggarts and spriggans, but this one is good because it doesn't miss, not because it's ranged.

In the very early game, it can be a good idea to pick up a sling. If your character is weak, it can help kill some enemies (adders to not die to them, phantoms because they're annoying). With a MiBe a sling is pointless because you can kill anything.

[rchandra]

the 5-10 evo helps a lot with wand power at very little cost, I'd always get it for Spider and convokers and such (you'll be able to use status wands on them).
My Bes get high crossbow or throwing skill for extended because why not, and penetration can be great. For a 3-rune game you can just get your wasteful 27 skills sooner.

[Siegurt]

So early on throwing with 0 skill does pretty good damage (darts and stones aren't too hot, but bigger thrown weapons can be very effective), slings do even more (even at 0 skill) crossbows do more damage than that, but ammo is rare early, and bows do good damage at 0 skill, but are better when skill points are invested.

However, doing damage isn't the number one reason to use ranged weapons. It's not a bad thing to use, but the major reasons to use it have to do with positioning.

1. You can use thrown *anything* at high level to get the attention of a single member of a pack and draw them apart to murder them without bringing down the whole pack down on your head. Admittedly that's less important for your average Trog-worshipper than for most other characters, but it's still a very powerful technique.
2. Nets are awesome, they can disable spellcasters for a short while, cause a chasing creature to lose a turn, and can let stabbers stab stuff.
3. Having a powerful enough ranged attack to kill a dangerous low-hps threat like boggarts, tormentors, convokers, and neqoxec to name a few, these things become more dangerous the longer you are in their LOS, therefore killing them right away, at range, is very powerful, Note that ranged *weapons* are viable, but not the only possibility here (Wands and rods for example are valuable with evocation)
4. Even on "tough" melee creatures post lair, with little to no skill and an only-ok thrown weapon, I find that I can often chip away roughly half of a creature's hit points (From full LOS), which means when you do melee them, you take half the attacks you otherwise would. Keeping your hit points high is a good survival tactic.

So I guess the question is: Do you mean *using* ranged attacks or *training* lots of ranged combat skill, since the former is very valuable, whereas the latter isn't so useful on a MiBe (Although eventually you'll run out of things to train, so you might as well, since it will provide some benefit)

[LIX]

Thanks everyone. Indeed I missed the case with boggarts/convokers/what have you. And I see how ranged weapon may prove useful, maybe even life-saving in a situation like that. I guess I'll try to get evo/throwing up to 5-7 on my next suicide mission. Well, after I got at least 15 in my primary skill.

[damiac]

2. Nets are awesome, they can disable spellcasters for a short while...

Is this a recent change? In my experience, casters still cast just fine when netted. Of course, they die extra fast due to being netted, but it really doesn't disable them.

[Siegurt]

Being caught in a net takes time from all monsters (While they struggle to escape), so while they don't really "disable" spellcasters they are slowed down (They are good to *use* on spellcasters, because those are the things that usually extra actions are ones that you don't want them taking). Nets do prohibit monster throwing though, which also may be what I was thinking of.

[damiac]

This is true, early on nets, even with low throwing skill, are a great tool. Anything to make that early wizard or priest waste a turn is good, and you can kill enemies in nets very quickly. I just remember being surprised when netted spellcasters would just cast spells from inside the net, so don't expect to be able to throw a net on an orc wizard and walk away with 5 hps or something. You have to plan that escape a little earlier.

[some12fat2move]

I always assumed that turns that enemies spend struggling out of a net are turns that they would have spent walking or hitting you.

[damiac]

But sometimes they won't spend their turn struggling out of the net, sometimes they'll just cast a spell at you. I'm just pointing out that unlike melee enemies, you're not immediately safe just because the caster is in a net.

But like you say, even casters will sometimes waste turns trying to get out of the net instead of killing you, so it's still a good idea to do so.

[some12fat2move]

Actually I was responding to this

They are good to *use* on spellcasters, because those are the things that usually extra actions are ones that you don't want them taking

I think that the action-stopping aspect is pretty useless on spellcaster enemies, since I really don't mind if they walk towards me or try to poke, the only thing I'm afraid of them doing is casting spells, and they will cast just as many spells in a net as out of a net (as far as I know). Of course reducing their EV is a good thing because you can beat them up better, but that has nothing to do with stopping their actions (well, killing them stops their actions, but that's a different story).

[Sandman25]

IMHO nets are almost useless vs casters without high stabbing i.e. high Weapon skill or high Stealth or both. If I can kill a caster in 2-3 hits with melee (warrior background vs early Orc Priest, for example), I don't want to waste a turn on net which can miss (the same situation with Haste, you need at least 3 turns to make hasting have any sense). If I can't kill a caster in 2-3 hits in melee but decide to fight it anyway, the monster is not that dangerous in the first place.
Late game nets are very good indeed because player usually has high weapon skill at this point, I've spectated players use nets effectively vs Ancient Lich even without any stealth.

[Siegurt]

they will cast just as many spells in a net as out of a net (as far as I know).

Actually they take half as many actions (spells included). Creatures caught in a net have an extra "movement" after every action as they struggle to break the net.

If you are a melee user and need to close with something particularly dangerous, using a net's not a bad plan to reduce the amount of damage you take. Of course it's better to not be in that situation (and force them to come into your melee range around a corner or something) but having tools at your disposal is better than not. Really nets are a good tool to reduce ranged damage while you close, get away from a pursuing enemy, or stab things, they're quite powerful.

[and into]

Nets are also, uh, really good in early and into mid-game. I've never really bothered with them very late, I guess because I don't feel I need them, maybe I'll try them out though, I may be missing out.

You can use nets against whatever, making stuff not able to hit you or follow you is good. Yes don't expect a priest to stop smiting completely once you net him; however breaking LOS stops further attacks of any kind, including smite, and nets can make breaking LOS a hell of a lot easier.

[Sandman25]

I use nets more often vs early Ogre, not vs Orc Priest. Ogre has lower EV usually so it's more likely to be caught in net, also it does not have any spells

[damiac]

Nets reduce EV and SH to 0 as well, don't they? So even without stabbing they're a big help early on.

[dck]

Ogres have the spell "being large and breaking your net in 2 turns" which is a pretty powerful spell against nets.
Also nets negate mon SH but not EV (although they seem to screw with it somewhat).
I haven't read the rest of the thread but nets are fantastic at all points of the game, overpowered in fact since they were allowed to catch flying monsters.