Skill training/Priority

[Thirtyeight]

Hello all,

I'm a fairly new player to this game, and I am having a lot of trouble. While I have a lot of questions, what I'd like to ask about in this thread is skill training. Specifically, when should I switch my main combat skill off and what should I focus on next? Should I just focus on one skill at a time or develop fighting/armor/shields simultaneously?

Say I'm making a MiBe. My first priority to get my weapon skill up to min-delay, right? Some weapons have an incredibly high skill requirement for that, won't I be unnecessarily squishy in the meantime? When should I turn on fighting or armor? Is it better to use a simple weapon like a mace and just hold on to flails until my skill is higher?

I appreciate any insight you can provide me, and I beg you please forgive my noobishness.

[savageorange]

Have you read the learndb entry?

skills

Here is how you train skills. First you train the skills that you use to kill dudes. Once you are killing dudes well enough, then you train the skills you use to not die to dudes. If you later run into problems killing dudes, you switch back to killdudes skills.

Or in other words, it is best to kill your enemies quickly. When you are killing them quickly enough, train your defensive skills.

You should generally aim to wield a weapon that matches your current skill level (approximately). There are some exceptions, but you usually want to wield the weapon that is both decent and does not require too much more skilling to get to min delay. The counter situation would involve wielding a too-heavy weapon, occasionally hitting slow+hard but the rest of the time missing. STR is also a factor here IIRC (more str -> better performance with heavier weapons), but that works out similarly since you usually will have more STR by the time you have the skill to make wielding heavy weapons an attractive proposition.

You need to prioritize skill training. this may not mean training exactly -one- skill at a time, but training many is rarely a good proposition. The learndb entry really summarizes it well: you pay attention to what you are failing at and train that.

EDIT: Also, please delete the other post you made which duplicates this one.

[HenryFlower]

http://crawl.develz.org/info/index.php?q=skills

With a weapon class that requires high skill, if you are feeling squishy, take a break to train up fighting/armor until you don't feel squishy, then go back to training main weapon.

[Wahaha]

With a MiBe you might just want to leave skills on autotraining and concentrate on your tactics instead.

[and into]

I have to disagree with savageorange. In general—but especially with a MiBe—you should just wield the most damaging weapon available of the appropriate type and hit stuff with it. Keep a good antimagic weapon of appropriate weapon type once you get one.

As for skill training, for MiBe just keep it on automatic honestly. If you understand min delay, you can check your skill menu every now and then if you want to, and if you already have min delay, toggle weapon skill off. If you switch to a weapon that needs more skill to achieve min delay, toggle weapon skill back on. In either case don't worry too much about it though.

[Siegurt]

Have you read the learndb entry?

skills

Here is how you train skills. First you train the skills that you use to kill dudes. Once you are killing dudes well enough, then you train the skills you use to not die to dudes. If you later run into problems killing dudes, you switch back to killdudes skills.

Or in other words, it is best to kill your enemies quickly. When you are killing them quickly enough, train your defensive skills.

You should generally aim to wield a weapon that matches your current skill level (approximately). There are some exceptions, but you usually want to wield the weapon that is both decent and does not require too much more skilling to get to min delay. The counter situation would involve wielding a too-heavy weapon, occasionally hitting slow+hard but the rest of the time missing. STR is also a factor here IIRC (more str -> better performance with heavier weapons), but that works out similarly since you usually will have more STR by the time you have the skill to make wielding heavy weapons an attractive proposition.

You need to prioritize skill training. this may not mean training exactly -one- skill at a time, but training many is rarely a good proposition. The learndb entry really summarizes it well: you pay attention to what you are failing at and train that.

EDIT: Also, please delete the other post you made which duplicates this one.

Strength has nothing whatsoever to do with swinging a weapon in crawl (In contributes to a very minor degree to damage done, but not enough to factor in weapon wielding selection or even to a degree you should think about at all, ever)

Generally for most weapons larger weapons (that is to say higher base damage weapons) do more damage regardless of skill level (The exceptions are quick blades, demon weapons and lajatang)

I find that for a MiBe I want to keep my fighting and one of either dodging or armour skills (Depending on whether I'm using light or heavy armour at a minium of 2/3 of my weapon skill. (I usually train those in increments of 5 just for convenience) I also typically train the other of Dodging|Armour to about half of the "primary".

Generally shields aren't as valuable as a two handed weapon, unless you happen across one of the really excellent one-handed weapons early enough to use it (or are using short-blades which are all one handed). If you should happen across a demon blade/whip, eveningstar, or double sword (bastard sword in .14) use that and train for a shield, 5 for a buckler, 15 for a regular shield, technically you should put in 25 shield skill for a large shield, but I don't think it comes up very often that you both have that much exp to spare, a large shield, and a good enough one handed weapon that it's worth using a shield.

[savageorange]

you should just wield the most damaging weapon available of the appropriate type and hit stuff with it.

Historically, that has been the problem when I did that.. being unable to actually hit stuff with it (overall result -- I take longer to kill stuff and come out of fights more damaged). Has that changed recently?

[Hirsch I]

also, if you find a good item that needs a skill, feel free to dump some points in it aswell.

[Thirtyeight]

OK, first off: I want to thank everyone for replying. I apologize about the double forum post, that was a dumb mistake.

I'm surprised to hear people endorse auto skill training, I thought I needed to focus one skill at a time?

Generally shields aren't as valuable as a two handed weapon, unless you happen across one of the really excellent one-handed weapons early enough to use it (or are using short-blades which are all one handed). If you should happen across a demon blade/whip, eveningstar, or double sword (bastard sword in .14) use that and train for a shield, 5 for a buckler, 15 for a regular shield, technically you should put in 25 shield skill for a large shield, but I don't think it comes up very often that you both have that much exp to spare, a large shield, and a good enough one handed weapon that it's worth using a shield.

Wouldn't shields make me far more likely to survive? Whats the advantage of a two-handed weapon?

[crate]

Wouldn't shields make me far more likely to survive? Whats the advantage of a two-handed weapon?

Shields block damage, right? You know what else blocks damage, and in fact does so even more effectively? Killing the things that are damaging you. 2h weapons deal more damage per turn.

[Thirtyeight]

  Code:

 Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.13.1 (tiles) character file.

Minos the Basher (Minotaur Berserker)              Turns: 11682, Time: 01:06:58

HP  85/85        AC 22     Str 24      XL: 10   Next: 47%
MP   1/1         EV 12     Int  6      God: Trog [*****.]
Gold 569         SH  0     Dex  9      Spells:  0 memorised,  9 levels left

Res.Fire  : . . .   See Invis. : +   S - +1,+6 dire flail (antimagic)
Res.Cold  : . . .   Warding    : .   N - +1 orc plate armour
Life Prot.: . . .   Conserve   : .   (no shield)
Res.Poison: .       Res.Corr.  : .   (helmet restricted)
Res.Elec. : .       Clarity    : .   R - +1 dwarf cloak
Sust.Abil.: . .     Spirit.Shd : .   H - +2 pair of gloves
Res.Mut.  : .       Stasis     : .   (no boots)
Res.Rott. : .       Flight     : .   W - amulet of the gourmand
Gourmand  : +                        m - ring of see invisible
                                     t - +6 ring of evasion

@: slightly resistant to hostile enchantments, extremely unstealthy
A: retaliatory headbutt, horns 2
a: Burn Spellbooks, Berserk, Trog's Hand, Brothers in Arms, Renounce Religion


You are on level 9 of the Dungeon.
You worship Trog.
Trog is extremely pleased with you.
You are not hungry.

You have visited 1 branch of the dungeon, and seen 10 of its levels.

You have collected 549 gold pieces.

Inventory:

Hand weapons
 e - a +4,+4 flail of draining
 x - an uncursed blowgun
 P - a +0,+1 anti-magic great mace
 S - a +1,+6 anti-magic dire flail (weapon)
Missiles
 k - 81 bolts
 y - 37 poisoned needles
 F - 35 stones (quivered)
 M - 7 curare-tipped needles
Armour
 z - a +2 ring mail of fire resistance
 H - a +2 pair of gloves (worn)
 N - a +1 orcish plate armour (worn)
 R - a +1 dwarven cloak (worn)
Magical devices
 n - a silver wand
 C - a sharpened glass wand
 E - a copper wand
 K - a brass wand
 O - a wand of polymorph {recharged}
Comestibles
 c - 2 bread rations
 i - 5 meat rations
 L - 10 sultanas
 Q - an apple
Scrolls
 f - a scroll of blinking
 p - 12 scrolls of remove curse
 A - 3 scrolls of teleportation
 G - a scroll of fog
Jewellery
 m - a ring of see invisible (right hand)
 t - a +6 ring of evasion (left hand)
 v - a small ruby ring
 B - an uncursed amulet of clarity
 I - an uncursed amulet of guardian spirit
 U - a blackened opal ring
 W - an amulet of the gourmand (around neck)
Potions
 d - a potion of heal wounds
 g - 3 potions of speed
 h - a viscous silvery potion
 j - 3 slimy brown potions
 l - 2 potions of restore abilities
 o - 6 potions of curing
 s - a viscous purple potion
 u - a smoky red potion
 w - a fizzy white potion
 J - a brown potion


   Skills:
 + Level 8.4 Fighting
 + Level 13.2 Maces & Flails
 + Level 11.2 Armour
 - Level 2.1 Dodging


This is the MiBe I'm running right now. I have been gifted two strong weapons, but I miss fairly often with them. What should I be training right now?

[Siegurt]

OK, first off: I want to thank everyone for replying. I apologize about the double forum post, that was a dumb mistake.

I'm surprised to hear people endorse auto skill training, I thought I needed to focus one skill at a time?

Generally shields aren't as valuable as a two handed weapon, unless you happen across one of the really excellent one-handed weapons early enough to use it (or are using short-blades which are all one handed). If you should happen across a demon blade/whip, eveningstar, or double sword (bastard sword in .14) use that and train for a shield, 5 for a buckler, 15 for a regular shield, technically you should put in 25 shield skill for a large shield, but I don't think it comes up very often that you both have that much exp to spare, a large shield, and a good enough one handed weapon that it's worth using a shield.

Wouldn't shields make me far more likely to survive? Whats the advantage of a two-handed weapon?

A two handed weapon will (usually) kill things more quickly than a one handed weapon, which means less turns for them to attack you, which means less damage taken. Shields block attacks which means less damage taken.

So it's a question of which one will do *more* for you. Generally shields don't block enough damage to make taking a lot of extra turns to kill stuff worth it (notably because there's kinds of attacks shields can't block, and because shields get worse at blocking the more things that attack you in a given round) So it comes down to "How many more attacks will this creature get because I'm using a shield" if you only find the common sorts of both two handed and one handed weapons, usually that balance will be in favor of the two-handed weapon, if you find rarer, more top-end one-handed weapons it can swing in the direction of the one-hander with a shield.

[Moanerette]

I'm surprised to hear people endorse auto skill training, I thought I needed to focus one skill at a time?

I think auto-training is semi-recommended for new players because, while it is not optimal, you're unlikely to go too far wrong with it and it leaves you free to concentrate on learning other aspects of the game without worrying overmuch about your skills.