How to survive going down stairs as DECj?

[ggoDeye]

I've only been playing DCSS for a few weeks but have a lot of RL experience.

I can't wrap my head around how to avoid instant death from going down stairs. I'm going about my business blasting everything to death, clear a level then I go down some stairs, see that I'm completely surrounded on the first turn, I go back up and I get hit by 5 enemies am dead before I can move again. Has happened to every deep elf conjurer that I have played over the past week.

How can I avoid this?

[duvessa]

I am sure 100 people will tell you to get more fighting skill or something, but what is really important here is that you need to stop going back up when there are enemies next to you that can kill you. Going back up gives them around 1.5 turns to hit you, AND it reduces your EV.

[Sar]

Reduces EV, what.

[tedric]

Are the stairs you're talking about the ones leading to Vaults:5?

Seriously though, two things: first, it sounds like a run of bad luck. Second, Crawl is harder than your average roguelike.

If you post the morgue file (if you're playing on the web, it's in folder on the server -- something like http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/yourname -- offline I'm not sure) people can take a look at your game and possibly give advice.

[Magipi]

Are the stairs you're talking about the ones leading to Vaults:5?

I bet it's in the Orcish Mines.

[tedric]

I bet it's in the Orcish Mines.

If it is, then the answer ggoDeye's looking for is probably "Don't enter Orc the moment you find the entrance." Keep going until you find Lair, which is generally easier. And don't do Lair:8 or Orc:4 immediately on clearing the floors above, either (I usually do L:1-7, O:1-3, L:8, O:4). Some experienced players will tell you they do all of Lair, then all of Orc, including the branch ends; but it's not as always as easy as they make it sound. The branch ends have a bigger jump in difficulty than any of the floors above, and until you get to know the dangers it's better to wait until you're a bit stronger.

There could also be a question of defenses. DE are squishy, so any extra AC you can grab in the early dungeon will help. Even plain equipment like robes, hats/hemlets, gloves, boots, can be enchanted +1 or +2, so try stuff on (but be prepared to deal with the occasional cursed item). A buckler is a good find, too, and 5 skill levels in shields should eliminate the penalties to spellcasting and melee.

[Zwobot]

Do you have some Stealth? I know it seems counterintuitive when you're using loud blasty spells all the time, but a couple of levels in Stealth can help a lot. With an aptitude of +3 you should try and aim for 8-10 Stealth by end of lair and see how it plays for you.

It'll help by not waking up or avoid being noticed when coming down stairs or during normal exploration. Try it out. It also helps with running away as enemies loose track of you easier with higher stealth.

[TehDruid]

Place your feet on the next step one at a time.

[Arkhan]

It might feel a bit clumsy but if you can get defensive spells like Shroud of G, Repel/Deflect Missiles, and Blink online they could help. Shroud will need to be put on before you go down, but it could give you a turn to get back up and hopefully blink away from anything that followed you.

[ggoDeye]

Are the stairs you're talking about the ones leading to Vaults:5?

Seriously though, two things: first, it sounds like a run of bad luck. Second, Crawl is harder than your average roguelike.

If you post the morgue file (if you're playing on the web, it's in folder on the server -- something like http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/yourname -- offline I'm not sure) people can take a look at your game and possibly give advice.

Thank you for the link. http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/ggoDeye/ I really don't know what to do with any of this data though.

I have been largely avoiding everything but the main dungeon. I've read that a number of good players don't do any of the side dungeons until they will be easy and that's good enough for me.

I am sure 100 people will tell you to get more fighting skill or something, but what is really important here is that you need to stop going back up when there are enemies next to you that can kill you. Going back up gives them around 1.5 turns to hit you, AND it reduces your EV.

Thanks. I will give this a try.

There could also be a question of defenses. DE are squishy, so any extra AC you can grab in the early dungeon will help. Even plain equipment like robes, hats/hemlets, gloves, boots, can be enchanted +1 or +2, so try stuff on (but be prepared to deal with the occasional cursed item). A buckler is a good find, too, and 5 skill levels in shields should eliminate the penalties to spellcasting and melee.

I've got this part figured out so far, but thank you for the advice.

Do you have some Stealth? I know it seems counterintuitive when you're using loud blasty spells all the time, but a couple of levels in Stealth can help a lot. With an aptitude of +3 you should try and aim for 8-10 Stealth by end of lair and see how it plays for you.

It'll help by not waking up or avoid being noticed when coming down stairs or during normal exploration. Try it out. It also helps with running away as enemies loose track of you easier with higher stealth.

This makes sense but I've read that it's ultimately a waste of XP. I guess it wouldn't be in my case since I'll never get more XP without it.

It might feel a bit clumsy but if you can get defensive spells like Shroud of G, Repel/Deflect Missiles, and Blink online they could help. Shroud will need to be put on before you go down, but it could give you a turn to get back up and hopefully blink away from anything that followed you.

I generally make it to about character level 10. I have never found another spellbook with a DECj by this point. I find them all the time with my troll hunters by this point so my sample size is clearly just too small so far. I have tried Wizards instead to get a better start of defensive spells but I run out of mana instead without the battlesphere.

[moocowmoocow]

I've only been playing DCSS for a few weeks but have a lot of RL experience.

I can't wrap my head around how to avoid instant death from going down stairs. I'm going about my business blasting everything to death, clear a level then I go down some stairs, see that I'm completely surrounded on the first turn, I go back up and I get hit by 5 enemies am dead before I can move again. Has happened to every deep elf conjurer that I have played over the past week.

How can I avoid this?

You're only surrounded if all monsters are adjacent to you. I have a hard time believing that you're going down stairs and are actually surrounded on first turn. It would be very weird if that happened once, much less multiple times. As others said, just go back up the staircase if there's too many monsters in LOS. There's three downstairs on every level so just try a different stair. In the rare event that all three are bad, use teleportation, blinking, speed, invisibility etc to move to somewhere more favorable.

[mikee]

Do you have some Stealth? I know it seems counterintuitive when you're using loud blasty spells all the time, but a couple of levels in Stealth can help a lot. With an aptitude of +3 you should try and aim for 8-10 Stealth by end of lair and see how it plays for you.

It'll help by not waking up or avoid being noticed when coming down stairs or during normal exploration. Try it out. It also helps with running away as enemies loose track of you easier with higher stealth.

I think really, he is better off building (all of) his characters so that they can actually be next to monsters without dying. Regardless of whether or not anyone thinks stealth is a good skill, that would be a lot better for him as he would not actually have to know about noise/stealth, how to allocate that xp, etc - that and having dodging in lair is so much more important.

[jejorda2]

Maybe it has been changed, but once upon a time, the first time you took stairs into a level, you always got the first move. The next time you take stairs, enemies get to hit you while you are walking down. So it makes sense to use the initiative some while you have it. Sometimes a teleport scroll makes more sense than walking back up the stairs.

[Sandman25]

You can click on "Last modified" in http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/ggoDeye/ and then click on last .txt file.

[tedric]

Maybe it has been changed, but once upon a time, the first time you took stairs into a level, you always got the first move. The next time you take stairs, enemies get to hit you while you are walking down. So it makes sense to use the initiative some while you have it. Sometimes a teleport scroll makes more sense than walking back up the stairs.

I generally wouldn't recommend teleporting on an unexplored level Unless it's as a last resort.

AFAIK you do still get the first-move freebie -- but only the very first time you enter a level. If you don't think you can take the enemies in LOS, I think it's worth using your free move to retreat upstairs and try a different staircase. You won't get a free move at the new stairs, but you are likely to find less danger.

I have been largely avoiding everything but the main dungeon. I've read that a number of good players don't do any of the side dungeons until they will be easy and that's good enough for me.

I find that Lair is usually easy enough the moment I find the staircase. The main dungeon ramps the difficulty pretty quickly within a couple floors past the range in which Lair/Orc appear -- probably because by that time the player has discovered two branches full of XP and loot. So maybe instead of thinking "will Lair be easy yet?", think "is the Dungeon getting too dangerous yet?"

One of the most important skills in Crawl is learning to run away a lot.

[ggoDeye]

You're only surrounded if all monsters are adjacent to you. I have a hard time believing that you're going down stairs and are actually surrounded on first turn. It would be very weird if that happened once, much less multiple times. As others said, just go back up the staircase if there's too many monsters in LOS. There's three downstairs on every level so just try a different stair. In the rare event that all three are bad, use teleportation, blinking, speed, invisibility etc to move to somewhere more favorable.

It is absolutely happening. Though I am greatly relieved that you have a hard time believing it because that means that it is not normal. Time to get back to crawling.

[ggoDeye]

LOL.

Just started a character. I go down to D2 and there are 2 gnolls adjacent to the stairs and 2 more right near. I go back upstairs because there is nowhere that I can run to on D2. They start where only 1 of them will get a guaranteed hit when I start running. That was better than it could be. I run away, pick up a rat that is chasing as well, drag them through a hallway so that only 1 can be next to me and luckily it is the rat. Drag him back to some stairs and kill it leaving the gnolls on D1.

Hurrah for progress!

Edit: I would love for anyone to give me tips while I play. ggoDeye on http://crawl.akrasiac.org:8080/

[savageorange]

Well, having spectated your game (as 'kitlau'), I've gotta say it seems you have a pretty good sense of how to run a TrBe (it was nice to see an example of how well shields work for Tr), and generally solid tactics (as I expected, knowing your history with Brogue). Your approach to ID seems a little optimistic to me (mainly because !Mutation can really ruin your day if you happen to get berserkitis or shouting). I'm not sure how to translate what I saw to how you might play a DeCj.

[Hopeless]

It has been (much to my frustration) made very clear to me by experience that caster backgrounds are terribly hard compared to melee backgrounds. You start with low hitpoints, no armor to speak of and usually not much dodge (depending on race) and your spells are a critically finite (because beginning mana is severely low) source of damage that are likely to backfire some of the time leaving you open to retaliation. Also some spell types just don't work at all on some monsters (Necromancy on Undead, except Control Undead which is the last spell in the basic book). Yep blasting stuff is fun, but finding stuff that doesn't blast so easy is just down right aggravating when your options are so limited. Consumables are good for filling in the gaps but they don't cover everything.

So yeah developing fighting (fighting skill itself gives hp which helps and higher weapon skills mean faster attacks) skills doesn't seem that bad an idea in the light of all that. And dodging is critical. Stealth seems to be one of those skills that could be good if you concentrated in it but doesn't have much effect with just a few points. By the time you have the ability to use it to effect you have to sink a good deal of experience into it. I just avoid it unless I am running the auto skill selector and even then I tend to turn it off if I remember (selecting the letter until it is -). Mainly you want to find ways to not be squished and unfortunately that is 10x easier with a fighter type background.

Spells can be very powerful but you have to survive the casting of them to make them worthwhile. As for not finding books, the RNG is a really nasty and perverse entity. Hope for the best each time until shown otherwise. Also the more places you explore the more likely you will find a variety of things. That means if you are running away a lot and avoiding all situations where you might be cornered and unable to run you are more likely to survive long enough to see a new book. Imho casters aren't worth the effort until you have the solid skills to avoid being killed while playing them. (And then I question if they are going to be all that much fun.)

[duvessa]

For the most part the backgrounds under the "Mage" category are quite a bit better than the ones in the "Warrior" category. If you are having more trouble with them then there is something wrong...

[Sar]

I think most book backgrounds are stronger than most melee backgrounds. Being a caster does not stop your character from picking up a weapon and hitting monsters in their ugly faces, and the skill difference between an early game tabber and early game caster isn't that big - and caster can do things other than "hit dude" and "walk away from dude".

[tedric]

Imho casters aren't worth the effort until you have the solid skills to avoid being killed while playing them. (And then I question if they are going to be all that much fun.)

For the most part the backgrounds under the "Mage" category are quite a bit better than the ones in the "Warrior" category. If you are having more trouble with them then there is something wrong...

I think most book backgrounds are stronger than most melee backgrounds. Being a caster does not stop your character from picking up a weapon and hitting monsters in their ugly faces, and the skill difference between an early game tabber and early game caster isn't that big - and caster can do things other than "hit dude" and "walk away from dude".

You're all right, except for the part where Hopeless doubts the fun of casters. In my experience, casters are a lot harder when you're not good at Crawl generally. Melee types were a much easier way for me to learn the game, and it's how I got my first (offline) win. Then I started transitioning to casters -- and I loved it. My next win was with a DsCj and that run was some of the most fun I've had playing Crawl (MfIEs are also a treat). Because I'd used the simpler gameplay of melee builds to learn many painful lessons already, the learning curve for caster backgrounds was much smoother.

tl;dr: Casters are stronger, but only if you already know how to play well.

[ggoDeye]

Well, having spectated your game (as 'kitlau'), I've gotta say it seems you have a pretty good sense of how to run a TrBe (it was nice to see an example of how well shields work for Tr), and generally solid tactics (as I expected, knowing your history with Brogue). Your approach to ID seems a little optimistic to me (mainly because !Mutation can really ruin your day if you happen to get berserkitis or shouting). I'm not sure how to translate what I saw to how you might play a DeCj.

Thank you again for the help today. Do you have a handle on the Brogue forums?

[savageorange]

^ Yes ('tilkau'), but I never post, so far. I find Brogue easier to understand but significantly harder to play.

[XuaXua]

I've only been playing DCSS for a few weeks but have a lot of RL experience.

I can't wrap my head around how to avoid instant death from going down stairs. I'm going about my business blasting everything to death, clear a level then I go down some stairs, see that I'm completely surrounded on the first turn, I go back up and I get hit by 5 enemies am dead before I can move again. Has happened to every deep elf conjurer that I have played over the past week.

How can I avoid this?

Travel by shaft.

[Zwobot]

Do you have some Stealth? I know it seems counterintuitive when you're using loud blasty spells all the time, but a couple of levels in Stealth can help a lot. With an aptitude of +3 you should try and aim for 8-10 Stealth by end of lair and see how it plays for you.

It'll help by not waking up or avoid being noticed when coming down stairs or during normal exploration. Try it out. It also helps with running away as enemies loose track of you easier with higher stealth.

I think really, he is better off building (all of) his characters so that they can actually be next to monsters without dying. Regardless of whether or not anyone thinks stealth is a good skill, that would be a lot better for him as he would not actually have to know about noise/stealth, how to allocate that xp, etc - that and having dodging in lair is so much more important.

Conversly, what are good defenses to aim for by/during Lair? I'm playing the game mostly by ear and just sorta aim for 30/30 AC/EV by Zot. (More is better, sure, but I wouldn't put more into a skill over 15 to get 1 more point by then). In case this isn't clear, I'm actually curious

To the OP, ultimately you have to try things out for yourself. And sometimes it really is just bad luck - I personally can't remember going down stairs and land next to a hydra - though I have no doubt that it happens. Just to clarify - I mean training Stealth -after- offense and defense are online, and reasonably good.

[Sandman25]

I believe from mathematical point of view there is no "good defense to aim" with optimal play. If training Armour is optimal, player should do it, even if AC is already 60. Also note that achievable defenses really depend on species/god, I am not sure Sp, Gh or Gr should aim for 30/30.

[Zwobot]

I believe from mathematical point of view there is no "good defense to aim" with optimal play. If training Armour is optimal, player should do it, even if AC is already 60. Also note that achievable defenses really depend on species/god, I am not sure Sp, Gh or Gr should aim for 30/30.

Hehe, yeah optimal play. I've heard of that. I said I play Crawl by ear, didn't I? And obviously an OpMo (for example) would have (usually) too much trouble actually getting 30 AC to be worth it

I'm just curious what defenses more experienced players would judge 'good enough'. If the question is difficult and/or impossible to answer, that's fine, as well.

[Sandman25]

I'm just curious what defenses more experienced players would judge 'good enough'. If the question is difficult and/or impossible to answer, that's fine, as well.

Google it Seriously, when I am interested in some combo, I do a search on the combo with "+escaped" and analyze results. It is useful for learning how to train skills early game also.

[ggoDeye]

I've only been playing DCSS for a few weeks but have a lot of RL experience.

I can't wrap my head around how to avoid instant death from going down stairs. I'm going about my business blasting everything to death, clear a level then I go down some stairs, see that I'm completely surrounded on the first turn, I go back up and I get hit by 5 enemies am dead before I can move again. Has happened to every deep elf conjurer that I have played over the past week.

How can I avoid this?

Travel by shaft.

LOL. Yeah that would solve this problem, though my experience leads me to believe it will create worse ones.

^ Yes ('tilkau'), but I never post, so far. I find Brogue easier to understand but significantly harder to play.

I feel like Brogue is very much like chess, you can learn the rules in 15 minutes but the nuances of how those rules interact is incredibly complex. Once you understand the nuances it comes down to whether you have the stamina to make clever tactical decisions for 2-4 hours straight.

DCSS feels like Stratego to me right now. I'm sure that this is because I haven't internalized the rules yet. I know that I'm new to the game but it appears that DCSS would benefit enormously by incorporating some of Brogues design principles, specifically attempting transparency where possible.

[Senban]

specifically attempting transparency where possible.

This is called "being unspoilery" in crawl parlance and remains a tantalizing pipe dream. There are a bunch of advantages to crunching the game mechanics through formula that look like jokes from Big Bang Theory, but comprehensibility isn't one of them.

[mikee]

Conversly, what are good defenses to aim for by/during Lair? I'm playing the game mostly by ear and just sorta aim for 30/30 AC/EV by Zot. (More is better, sure, but I wouldn't put more into a skill over 15 to get 1 more point by then). In case this isn't clear, I'm actually curious

It is true that there isn't any correct number to always have, but on characters like the one in this thread I would usually have 20 or more EV in lair. This is just a rough number that I am comfortable with spending for, and I have a sense of being satisfied with how durable it makes me at that point in the game. Crawl, of course, is to a large extent a game of looking at what you have and trying to make the most of it, so this will vary.

I personally have no desire for stealth on most characters - I can plan better for encounters if I have a slightly stronger character and less variance in what is approaching me and how it is approaching.

[Zwobot]

It is true that there isn't any correct number to always have, but on characters like the one in this thread I would usually have 20 or more EV in lair. This is just a rough number that I am comfortable with spending for, and I have a sense of being satisfied with how durable it makes me at that point in the game. Crawl, of course, is to a large extent a game of looking at what you have and trying to make the most of it, so this will vary.

I personally have no desire for stealth on most characters - I can plan better for encounters if I have a slightly stronger character and less variance in what is approaching me and how it is approaching.

Yeah 20+ EV sounds about right.

Since I advocated stealth I just started a DEFE (on the halftone branch) to follow my own advice and check (again) how it matches up with reality. It's hardly comparable though, since I found an early good wizardry ring with +int - which let me use spillover XP rather freely - not to mention an elec dagger.

Still - I trained stealth to 9, dodging to 14 roughly around lair. And I did encounter several (three if I remember correctly) situations where, after going downstairs killerbees and a cyclops and such where in sight - and not all of them where awake, I'd like to think due to stealth.

So ggoDeye, try it out. In a fight the stealth is mostly wasted XP, true - but it does help with your specific problem - and in general to avoid getting swarmed. In my experience a few points are entirely worth it. And DEFE in particular have XP to waste, to try things out.

[Lasty]

I tended to value Stealth pretty little until I played a bunch of Dith characters; Dith's passive stealth boost to even fairly unstealthy characters showed me how different things are with stealth, and how valuable it can be. I still don't have a great theory for when to train stealth and how much, but I do think it's something worth keeping in mind.

[ggoDeye]

Thank you all for the advice. I have lead several more DECjs to the death since writing the first post and it appears that stealth is almost necessary (for me) IF I haven't found a utility spell book by D6 or so.

If only the Wz spellbook had battlesphere, or the Cj book had blink or call imp or conjure flame or mephitic cloud...

[Sandman25]

Well, Cj book is one of the most powerful starting books IMHO, it can bring character to Lair 8 without many problems, especially as DE. Consider posting your morgue files, maybe the deaths are caused by tactical/training mistakes and not by books limitations.

[ggoDeye]

Well, Cj book is one of the most powerful starting books IMHO, it can bring character to Lair 8 without many problems, especially as DE. Consider posting your morgue files, maybe the deaths are caused by tactical/training mistakes and not by books limitations.

I will do this.

You comment makes me wonder if I just don't understand how to use some of the spells in the starting book, specifically Dazzling Spray, Mystic Blast and Fulminant Prism.

Right now I learn Searing Ray and Battlesphere as soon as they are available. Then I just use these spells until I die. Are there tactical uses of the other spells that I am overlooking?

Edit: Thanks for the PM Sandman25. I'm trying your advice right now. Feel free to watch and give advice.

[Sandman25]

Dazzling Spray can blind enemy, I use it for escape mostly. Some players actually stab the blinded targets.
Mystic Blast is a very good spell, it deals much damage and also can explode occasionally damaging surrounding targets (but not player).
Fulminant Prism is tricky, I am not a big fan of it but it is very useful for killing statues out of LoS.
Also make sure you retreat after seeing orcs to fight them in explored territory or on upstairs, they usually come in bands with orc priests/wizards.

[Arkhan]

Fulminant Prism is tricky, I am not a big fan of it but it is very useful for killing statues out of LoS.

This applies more to early game than late, but creatures that aren't massively powerful sometimes take more than one hit to destroy a prism. If you're in a hallway and far enough away, you can sometimes block their path with it. (And sometimes they'll decide the prism is more important than you even when in the open anyway.) And obviously this works best if you can take several steps before it explodes. Also, the prism can block line of fire if used in that way correctly (or incorrectly since that goes both ways) as well.

[Sandman25]

Yes, this is why I used word "tricky"
Basically it works best when you know what AI will do, I don't know it that well.

[damiac]

The one time I tried using fulminant prism, I thought the damage seemed a bit low for the setup required, the danger of blowing yourself up, and the incredible noise generated.

It is useful at the very least for blocking a hallway temporarily. I wonder if it could be used as a delayed projected noise spell...

[ggoDeye]

Thanks again to everyone.

The wiki had a guide for DECj that I have been using and it states to not wear armor with encumbrance. I found a +1 leather armor of poison resistance and am wearing it. It didn't effect spell failure chance for any spells. Is there anything else that encumbrance creates problems for a caster?

[Sandman25]

Leather armour is ok for all casters IMHO. Armour decreases EV, spell success and to-hit for melee/launcher weapons.

[tedric]

Leather rPois is great for the early game and Lair, Spider/Snake, and maybe Swamp depending on your options at that point. But if you find a robe with an ego like MR, Archmagi, or Resistance (combines rF+ and rC+), those will usually be better for the rest of the game or if you find another source of rPois and have nothing better for the slot it fills. Don't worry about armour penalties with leather, they're small so it's not worth investing XP in armour skill.

In my opinion it's worth learning every spell in the Cj starting book. I usually learn Searing, Dazzling, IMB, Battlesphere, Prism in that order (reversing Battlesphere and IMB works too).

In addition to blinding for escape/stabbing, Dazzling Spray is great for taking out crowds of plain orcs, green rats, etc. especially at high spell power. The targeting system is not obvious -- it can hit up to three targets at once but to get it to hit the three that you want you often have to aim it at an empty square. (This is kind of annoying for Dith worshippers at high piety, because your shadow's mimic spell won't hit anything.)

Be aware that Fulminant Prism and Iskenderun's Mystic Blast make a lot of noise if/when they explode. So be ready to retreat if you use them near unexplored territory. Better to lure monsters into cleared areas before you start blowing things up. And before using Prisms to take out statues/plants around a corner, try to explore all of the area around them from other angles to ferret out mobile monsters.

[savageorange]

Re: Fulminant Prism:

Fulminant prism can be challenging to use correctly, but in general you can predict the enemy's movement if a) they are not batty and b) you understand how Bresenham's line algorithm works. I find that if I have a loose cluster of enemies, relatively open surrounds, and a clear line of retreat, I can heavily damage most enemies in the cluster via cast+retreat.. (and then perhaps pick them off in sets of 2-3 using DSpray).

It's actually one of the spells I would prefer not to learn, due to how much attention you need to pay to do just one cast, but it's undoubtedly useful.

I would also highlight the 'blocking a hallway temporarily' use that damiac mentions -- since this can cause enemies to choose a different path to you, it can be a decent escape tool.

If I found an appropriate book, I would probably go for Mephitic Cloud instead. Though my experience is that it's uncommon to get such a book at the time you would want it.

+1 on the use with statues. Statues are often pretty scary, so attacking them from just outside LOS is a very helpful thing to be able to do. That said, you often don't encounter very many statues in a game.

Iskenderun's Mystic Blast is good because in addition to dealing respectable damage to the initial target, it can explode and damage other adjacent enemies (by the same amount? certainly a significant amount).. You can hit up to 5 enemies at once. (that's what I notice about the current spell set you are using -- they both hit a single target each turn. Isolating individual targets is not always practically achievable though.)

[and into]

I guess hypothetically some situations exist in which using fulminant prism to make noise a few spaces away from where you were 20 auts ago could be better than just reading ?noise or something, but I don't think its worth the 4/5 spell slots just in case such a situation arises.

Fulminant Prism isn't necessary, though it is nice it was lowered to lvl 4 in trunk. Anyway, the way I use it, when I do use it, is placing it behind folks while I hit them with a weapon, placed such that the blast hits lots of enemies and not me. Works pretty great in corridors or cramped places or anytime when you can use allies or superior speed to prevent getting surrounded; corridors that are near the lip that opens up onto a room in particular are great. And when you do that, you don't need to over-think it, really. The smite targeting is what makes the spell, obviously.

[Zwobot]

Fulminant Prism synergizes also pretty well with Kiku. As soon as you have animate dead - or even just with animate skeleton you can hide behind your undead army and use the prism. I think for an OpCj going Kiku and then using prism and bold of draining from within a cluster of zombies is a relatively safe strategy to engage dangerous enemies... Especially banishers, for example.

[damiac]

I guess hypothetically some situations exist in which using fulminant prism to make noise a few spaces away from where you were 20 auts ago could be better than just reading ?noise or something, but I don't think its worth the 4/5 spell slots just in case such a situation arises.

Fulminant Prism isn't necessary, though it is nice it was lowered to lvl 4 in trunk. Anyway, the way I use it, when I do use it, is placing it behind folks while I hit them with a weapon, placed such that the blast hits lots of enemies and not me. Works pretty great in corridors or cramped places or anytime when you can use allies or superior speed to prevent getting surrounded; corridors that are near the lip that opens up onto a room in particular are great. And when you do that, you don't need to over-think it, really. The smite targeting is what makes the spell, obviously.

That's a great point, it's probably more useful on a hybrid character who does some melee than on a fragile glass cannon type, who's constantly running away. If you know where you'll be when the thing goes off, throwing it behind a bunch of enemies makes a lot of sense.

I'm going to have to give this spell another chance next time I see an opportunity.

[Siegurt]

I guess hypothetically some situations exist in which using fulminant prism to make noise a few spaces away from where you were 20 auts ago could be better than just reading ?noise or something, but I don't think its worth the 4/5 spell slots just in case such a situation arises.

Fulminant Prism isn't necessary, though it is nice it was lowered to lvl 4 in trunk. Anyway, the way I use it, when I do use it, is placing it behind folks while I hit them with a weapon, placed such that the blast hits lots of enemies and not me. Works pretty great in corridors or cramped places or anytime when you can use allies or superior speed to prevent getting surrounded; corridors that are near the lip that opens up onto a room in particular are great. And when you do that, you don't need to over-think it, really. The smite targeting is what makes the spell, obviously.

That's a great point, it's probably more useful on a hybrid character who does some melee than on a fragile glass cannon type, who's constantly running away. If you know where you'll be when the thing goes off, throwing it behind a bunch of enemies makes a lot of sense.

I'm going to have to give this spell another chance next time I see an opportunity.

Actually running away is a great time to use f.Prism, drop a couple along the path things chase you along and kill them while you run, it does decent damage, is't susceptible to EV (Good for killer bees)

[and into]

Oh also, like any smite spell, you can of course abuse tough monsters with fulminant prism if you get an enemy rat or whatever between you and them in a corridor.