Quarterstaff or Lajatang?

[Psiweapon]

I know the question seems stupid, but I'd like some detailed explanations, if you have any.

I have a +4/+5 quarterstaff of Chaos (from Yiuf) and a +1 lajatang of speed (from okawaru)

The quarterstaff although risky, not only kills, it disables enemies too.

The lajatang is much less accurate but should have a much higher damage output.

Under exactly what circumstances would one of them outperform the other? How do the speed brand and Finesse attack speed boosts mesh together?

Oh, I also have a lajatang of distortion that I would LOVE to use, but won't be able to do so because I want to use rods too.

[Hirsch I]

a lajatang of speed is one of the best possible weapons, and I would instantly cum if one dropped in my game.
and chaos is much worse than going unarmed, it can mess you really bad.
lajatang of disto is what I used on my first win, is really powerful too.

[Psiweapon]

Thanks for the tips!

I've been nearly exclusively using Yiuf's quarterstaff up to this point, with just a couple of backup weapons (an artifact holy flail that also gives MR++ and an anti-magic flail)

It's pretty solid useful actually... venom, petrify, confuse... when it berserks or clones an enemy you can usually clobber it over the head again once or twice and it's dead anyways. That thing about moving staircases to under the monster you're attacking is nastier, though.

[Hirsch I]

hit it with a lajatang of speed, and you will not need to disable it's dead body.
EDIT: also, risking polymorphing an hydra into an Ice dragon, Gastronok into a Titan, and things like that is... not good.

[Sar]

I use Yiufstaff fairly often in early-mid game, it' an effective weapon. However, a lajatang of speed is one of the best upgrades for it you could possibly hope to get.

[Hirsch I]

I just ran Fsim. Lajatang of speed vs Claymore of freezing. vs stone giant (obvious advantage to the claymore, due to the giant's AC.) at 27 relevant skill, claymore did ~16, lajatang did ~15.
and the lajatangs curve is much better: the claymore only starts dealing more damage after skillvl 18. this against a monster that favours the claymore. that was surprising.

[Klown]

I'd keep the quarterstaff on you to deal with hydras, though.
Maybe a plain one, as mentioned above there's a chance chaos can screw you.

[Tiktacy]

A lajatang of speed is one of the best possible weapons, and I would instantly cum if one dropped in my game.

Agreed.

[dck]

Hitting anything with a chaos weapon at basically any point carries a (very) small chance of instant death and this chance of instant death increases with the threat level the thing you are hitting poses to you (but doesn't only depend on it at all and you can die hitting a ko at XL 10).

[Psiweapon]

Hitting anything with a chaos weapon at basically any point carries a (very) small chance of instant death and this chance of instant death increases with the threat level the thing you are hitting poses to you (but doesn't only depend on it at all and you can die hitting a ko at XL 10).

Instadeath as in "You club the kobold. You die" ? O_o

Or as in EXACTLY HOW.

[DracheReborn]

I guess you missed this thread. It was eye opening:

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=10448

I used to use Yiuf's staff pretty regularly, but not since reading that

[damiac]

I just ran Fsim. Lajatang of speed vs Claymore of freezing. vs stone giant (obvious advantage to the claymore, due to the giant's AC.) at 27 relevant skill, claymore did ~16, lajatang did ~15.
and the lajatangs curve is much better: the claymore only starts dealing more damage after skillvl 18. this against a monster that favours the claymore. that was surprising.

Is that damage per 10 aut?

That's rather shocking to see the Lajatang is just so much better than a claymore. Or is it that speed is just that much better than freezing?

Either way, I should rethink lajatangs on primarily melee characters. I always thought they were a good weapon for a low investment, not just the best weapon under all circumstances (except hydras)

[Siegurt]

The truth is that speed is really an exellent brand, a +0 lajatang of speed vs a +0 claymore of speed (Against a stone giant):

  Code:

Skill   Lajatang    Claymore
0         9.4         8.4
1         9.9         8.6
2         10.1        8.9
3         10.9        9.2
4         11.5        9.8
5         12.3        10.6
6         13.1        11.3
7         13.8        11.7
8         15.2        12.5
9         16.3        13.2
10        17.5        14
11        18.8        14.9
12        20.7        15.5
13        22.5        16.5
14        24.4        17.2
15        24.7        18.3
16        25.4        19.7
17        25.2        21.1
18        25.7        23.1
19        27.2        24.3
20        27.2        26.2
21        27.8        28.5
22        27.4        30.1
23        28.5        32.9
24        28.8        34.6
25        29.8        35.6
26        30.1        36.7
27        29.6        37.9


Here's a +0 claymore of speed vs a +0 claymore of flaming:

  Code:

Skill    Speed      Flaming
0         8.4         7.2
1         8.6         7.6
2         8.9         7.7
3         9.2         8.2
4         9.8         8.5
5         10.6        9
6         11.3        9.5
7         11.7        9.9
8         12.5        10.6
9         13.2        11.1
10        14          11.8
11        14.9        12.4
12        15.5        13.1
13        16.5        14
14        17.2        14.6
15        18.3        15.7
16        19.7        16.4
17        21.1        18.4
18        23.1        19.2
19        24.3        20.7
20        26.2        22.2
21        28.5        23.4
22        30.1        25.7
23        32.9        27.3
24        34.6        30.8
25        35.6        31
26        36.7        31.7
27        37.9        31.6



As you can see, speed is a better brand for a claymore than flaming/freezing against a stone giant.

[stickyfingers]

I just ran Fsim. Lajatang of speed vs Claymore of freezing. vs stone giant (obvious advantage to the claymore, due to the giant's AC.) at 27 relevant skill, claymore did ~16, lajatang did ~15.
and the lajatangs curve is much better: the claymore only starts dealing more damage after skillvl 18. this against a monster that favours the claymore. that was surprising.

Is that damage per 10 aut?

That's rather shocking to see the Lajatang is just so much better than a claymore. Or is it that speed is just that much better than freezing?

Either way, I should rethink lajatangs on primarily melee characters. I always thought they were a good weapon for a low investment, not just the best weapon under all circumstances (except hydras)

It's speed. After recent changes (2/3 of delay, randomly rounded, instead of halved delay rounded up then damage reduced by 10%), it gives you plain +50% damage output to everything. Freezing gives on average +25% to not resistant, vorpal +16,7% to everything. It only ever appears on short blades, staves and artefacts though.

[crate]

well lajatang is also the best weapon in the game so

[damiac]

Wait, speed no longer reduces base damage? That's huge.

Also, why is lajatang just better than a claymore across the board, when the claymore takes more skill investment? I understand the lajatang being better at comparatively low skill levels, but from the looks of that chart, the lajatang just gains more and more ground over the claymore the higher the skill goes.

[wheals]

  Code:

21        27.8        28.5

After that point the claymore is always better. Of course good luck getting a claymore of speed even if you worship Trog, while a lajatang of speed wouldn't be too unsurprising as a first weapon acquirement if you started with a staff.

[Viashino_wizard]

Wait, speed no longer reduces base damage? That's huge.

It also only reduces delay by 1/3 instead of cutting it in half. It's a net reduction in DPS by 1/6 (x1.5 instead of x1.8).

[damiac]

Haha, I didn't realize there were scroll bars on that, I feel dumb. Still, I'd expect the claymore to be better than the 'tang at lower skills levels, but oh well, 21 skill certainly isn't unreasonable for a character who expects to swing a claymore.

It also only reduces delay by 1/3 instead of cutting it in half. It's a net reduction in DPS by 1/6 (x1.5 instead of x1.8).

I don't think you're taking the base damage reduction of the old formula into account there. So seemingly speed isn't as good as it used to be on high base damage weapons, but is better than it used to be on low base damage weapons.

[Viashino_wizard]

I don't think you're taking the base damage reduction of the old formula into account there. So seemingly speed isn't as good as it used to be on high base damage weapons, but is better than it used to be on low base damage weapons.

As I understand it, the base damage reduction was 10%. 90% base damage attacking twice as fast gives you 180% of the pre-AC DPS, the current version gives you 150%. I should have specified that the 1.5 vs 1.8 DPS increase is before taking AC into consideration.

[Siegurt]

I don't think you're taking the base damage reduction of the old formula into account there. So seemingly speed isn't as good as it used to be on high base damage weapons, but is better than it used to be on low base damage weapons.

As I understand it, the base damage reduction was 10%. 90% base damage attacking twice as fast gives you 180% of the pre-AC DPS, the current version gives you 150%. I should have specified that the 1.5 vs 1.8 DPS increase is before taking AC into consideration.

Well, except it was only twice as fast if your non-speed delay would be even it was actually

  Code:

trunc((speed+1)/2)

so 6 became 3, but 5 *also* became 3, and 7 became 4, so on a lajatang it was actually 75% faster (not 100%), 90% damage at 75% faster is 67.5% more damage (167.5%) not 180%

A 5 speed weapon (short swords/dwhip) was actually 159%
A 6 speed weapon was the full 180%
and most weapons were 167.5%

Also had the odd effect of for non-even min-delay weapons, you got the same speed by training 2 less skill.

[damiac]

I don't think you're taking the base damage reduction of the old formula into account there. So seemingly speed isn't as good as it used to be on high base damage weapons, but is better than it used to be on low base damage weapons.

As I understand it, the base damage reduction was 10%. 90% base damage attacking twice as fast gives you 180% of the pre-AC DPS, the current version gives you 150%. I should have specified that the 1.5 vs 1.8 DPS increase is before taking AC into consideration.

Well, except it was only twice as fast if your non-speed delay would be even it was actually

  Code:

trunc((speed+1)/2)

so 6 became 3, but 5 *also* became 3, and 7 became 4, so on a lajatang it was actually 75% faster (not 100%), 90% damage at 75% faster is 67.5% more damage (167.5%) not 180%

A 5 speed weapon (short swords/dwhip) was actually 159%
A 6 speed weapon was the full 180%
and most weapons were 167.5%

Also had the odd effect of for non-even min-delay weapons, you got the same speed by training 2 less skill.

Someone give this man a blue name.

[Viashino_wizard]

I don't think you're taking the base damage reduction of the old formula into account there. So seemingly speed isn't as good as it used to be on high base damage weapons, but is better than it used to be on low base damage weapons.

As I understand it, the base damage reduction was 10%. 90% base damage attacking twice as fast gives you 180% of the pre-AC DPS, the current version gives you 150%. I should have specified that the 1.5 vs 1.8 DPS increase is before taking AC into consideration.

Well, except it was only twice as fast if your non-speed delay would be even it was actually

  Code:

trunc((speed+1)/2)

so 6 became 3, but 5 *also* became 3, and 7 became 4, so on a lajatang it was actually 75% faster (not 100%), 90% damage at 75% faster is 67.5% more damage (167.5%) not 180%

A 5 speed weapon (short swords/dwhip) was actually 159%
A 6 speed weapon was the full 180%
and most weapons were 167.5%

Also had the odd effect of for non-even min-delay weapons, you got the same speed by training 2 less skill.

Hmm, I assumed it used fractions with random rounding the way most delay calculations do. My mistake.

[crate]

Hmm, I assumed it used fractions with random rounding the way most delay calculations do. My mistake.

this was in fact one of the big reasons behind the change

[Hirsch I]

wow, learned a lot with this thread. but... claymore can generate with speed?

[duvessa]

any randart weapon can receive speed unless it is a quick blade

[Hirsch I]

oh. never happened to me. what are the chances?

[duvessa]

Randart demon weapons that pass a 7 out of 9 chance get draining, flaming, freezing, elec, vamp, pain, or venom (equal chances) and have "power level" increased by 1 (which is a bad thing, it makes them get fewer other properties). Other randart melee weapons, or randart demon weapons that fail this chance, get 24.3% vorpal, 11.3% flaming, 11.3% freezing, 8.67% dragon slaying, 8.67% venom, 8.67% draining, 4.33% holy, 4.33% elec, 4.33% speed, 4.33% vamp, 4.33% pain, 4.33% antimagic, and 1% distortion. Randart Slings/bows/longbows get 22.2% venom, 22.2% vorpal, 22.2% flame, 22.2% frost, 11.1% speed. Randart crossbows get 64% [pick from sling/bow/longbow list], 20% elec, 16% penetration. Randart blowguns get 50% speed, 50% evasion.

If an "invalid" brand is chosen, it retries. Dragon slaying is invalid on anything that is not a polearm, and speed is invalid on quick blades.

[Hirsch I]

thanks a lot!
damn, you know a lot of stuff. it is good that you are willing to share this knowlege.

[some12fat2move]

1.13% flaming, 1.13% freezing

I have a feeling that decimal is not in the right place, is it?