What happens if chei uses boots of run?

[halbyc]

I found +6 boots of rElec and run, is it just a 1 time piety hit that i can live with, or will i get penance or abandoned by my god?

[duvessa]

Every time you move while wearing the running ego, you have a 10% chance of losing 1 point of Chei piety.

Also, you are aware that naga of Chei is one of the worst possible race/god combinations in the game, right?

[Klown]

Those boots are probably more valuable than Cheibriados.

If you think you can handle his snail-like wrath, I'd switch gods and throw on those boots.

[daggaz]

CTRL-q
yes

You won the game when those boots dropped. Getting the orb is just extra frosting on a giant cake.

[dpeg]

As you probably know, I am not a fan of all the Cheibriados dissing, but daggaz reply made me think of a fun tavern game:

List an item that you think is a game-winner (for you, not for the best Crawl player in the world).
How many of us can pull of a near-sure win when finding +6 rElec running boots on D:1?
Which item would you choose if forced to win a game of Crawl at gunpoint?

[Baldu3]

Which item would you choose if forced to win a game of Crawl at gunpoint?

I think I would go centaur conjurer of kiku with a cape of fog.

And you?

[Hirsch I]

+6 rElec running...
wait, is this the lightning scales boot version? the lightning greaves?

[duvessa]

As you probably know, I am not a fan of all the Cheibriados dissing

This subforum is called "Dungeon Crawling Advice." I am going to give the best advice I have, not stroke people's egos.

[pickled_heretic]

My first or second win ever was NaFi of Chei. Once I got past the early pre-lair hump I found the whole game to be so easy that my greatest challenge was to avoid tabbing myself to death. I didnt even use spells (not intentionally, I was just too lazy). Constriction is insane with chei stats and you can constrict the vast majority of things (pan lords etc.). The key to survival before you become literally invincible is using shields and having ranged options for when closing to melee is not practical. Also, judicious use of slouch.

[Hopeless]

As you probably know, I am not a fan of all the Cheibriados dissing

This subforum is called "Dungeon Crawling Advice." I am going to give the best advice I have, not stroke people's egos.

I am not sure how avoiding a negative tone is ego stroking but then I am new here and maybe there is some history I am missing. Personally Id like to see the reason why NaXX Chei is the worst combo in the game.

[duvessa]

https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=10031&p=138526#p138526

My first or second win ever was NaFi of Chei. Once I got past the early pre-lair hump I found the whole game to be so easy that my greatest challenge was to avoid tabbing myself to death. I didnt even use spells (not intentionally, I was just too lazy). Constriction is insane with chei stats and you can constrict the vast majority of things (pan lords etc.). The key to survival before you become literally invincible is using shields and having ranged options for when closing to melee is not practical. Also, judicious use of slouch.

See the thing is, basically every combo is just as invincible once it reaches lair. What you are noticing is simply the fact that the game is very easy past the first few dungeon levels.

[Siegurt]

Because the most basic tactics in the game is being able to walk away.

Being able to walk at the same speed or faster than a monster is *extremely* powerful, and the fewer monsters you can walk at the same speed or faster than, the larger the penalty you're taking, what's more the slower you are than a monster, the larger disadvantage you're at.

Being a naga is a movement speed disadvantage, Using Chei is a movement speed disadvantage, taking both penalties in combination is MUCH worse than taking either one individually.

It's a larger disadvantage than permanent Stasis (e.x. Fo), or permanent -Cast (e.x. Trog), or being unable to use wands or equipment (E.x. 0.13 Fe).

Additionally, while being a NaXX^Chei gives you a larger penalty than being any other sort of Chei worshipper, it gives you no additional benefits (Well, other than the possibly dubious benefit of being able to gain piety slightly faster)

It's not that it's an unwinnable combo, it's just that you're accepting one of the largest net penalties available in the game.

[Sar]

Sorry for pedantry, but Felids can use wands now.

[Siegurt]

Hehe, while true, NaXX^Chei movement penalty was a larger penalty than Felid's had when they *couldn't* use wands. Edited post for clarity

[Arkhan]

Because the most basic tactics in the game is being able to walk away.

Being able to walk at the same speed or faster than a monster is *extremely* powerful, and the fewer monsters you can walk at the same speed or faster than, the larger the penalty you're taking, what's more the slower you are than a monster, the larger disadvantage you're at.

This is exactly why I love spriggan so much. You are faster than nearly everything in the game, and there are plenty of buttons to press for the things you aren't since you didn't have to press them on anything else.

[diviton]

Those boots are absolutely amazing. Plus 6 is an insanely high enchantment for boots, elec is one of the rarest resistances and running is the best thing in the game.

My question is why are we talking about Naga's of Chei? Did the TC ever say anything about being a Naga? If he was a Naga, he couldn't even wear boots of running, so I'm thoroughly confused.

That said, my most recent win was a NaWr of Chei and I got it pretty fast. Not a bad combo, really. Far from my favorite, but it's not like you're worshipping Xom or something.

[Sar]

Because "+6 boots of running" is a fixedart naga barding "lightning scales", since randart boots can't get running ego.

[pickled_heretic]

Naga makes piety accrual faster and also ups slouch damage. Actually a pretty big advantage since you can slouch spam your way through encounters others might have to run from.

And again, cheibriados nagas are uniquely positioned to maximize their constriction effectiveness. Constriction is heavily reliant on Str and haste has no effect on damage so chei is all good and no bad here.

The whole bit about running away becomes irrelevant once nothing can kill you anyway. Another thing I haven't seen mentioned is the massive health pool nagas end up with, which when combined with the insane defensive stats the stat bonuses from Cheibriados will grant you, becomes a huge crutch that will probably teach you how to play very badly for how hard it is to actually die, even while eating a dozen yaktaur bolts every time you press O.

[diviton]

Because "+6 boots of running" is a fixedart naga barding "lightning scales", since randart boots can't get running ego.

I see. That makes sense. I didn't know randarts couldn't get running.

Thanks for the clarification.

[stickyfingers]

Because "+6 boots of running" is a fixedart naga barding "lightning scales", since randart boots can't get running ego.

I see. That makes sense. I didn't know randarts couldn't get running.

Thanks for the clarification.

Randart armours can never get an ego. Unlike weapons, which always get a brand.

[dck]

I'd like to take the chance to bring up xom is a miles stronger god than chei and in fact beneficial to worship as long as you are not in early D, which can't be said of chei.

[varsovie]

Which item would you choose if forced to win a game of Crawl at gunpoint?

Glaive of Prune, then fake my death by asphyxia.

[damiac]

See the thing is, basically every combo is just as invincible once it reaches lair. What you are noticing is simply the fact that the game is very easy past the first few dungeon levels.

Do you actually play this game past D10? I can get a lot of crappy characters to lair, then things get harder. Your advice boils down to "Get to lair. Win". I guess the viewpoint of "only pre-lair matters" explains a lot of the things you say that make no sense. Chei is worse than no god at all, pre lair, ranged weapons are incredibly OP, pre lair, having necromutation castable is worse than not having it, pre lair... it all starts to make sense

[Viashino_wizard]

See the thing is, basically every combo is just as invincible once it reaches lair. What you are noticing is simply the fact that the game is very easy past the first few dungeon levels.

Do you actually play this game past D10? I can get a lot of crappy characters to lair, then things get harder. Your advice boils down to "Get to lair. Win". I guess the viewpoint of "only pre-lair matters" explains a lot of the things you say that make no sense. Chei is worse than no god at all, pre lair, ranged weapons are incredibly OP, pre lair, having necromutation castable is worse than not having it, pre lair... it all starts to make sense

Pre-lair is, statistically, the hardest part of the game. It's not that post-lair isn't more dangerous (because it is), the thing is that by the time you reach lair you'll have the tools to deal with, avoid or escape almost any situation. Compare that to going down the stairs to D2 and end up standing between Grinder and Sigmund. Or for a less exaggerated example, encountering a kobold with a blowgun on D1.

[Sandman25]

I think the best way to analyze which part is the most dangerous is to get statistics from games of top players.

[damiac]

Well, think about it. Bad players are going to die before lair, because they're going to die quickly. If you started them with a character in lair, they'd die there, probably even faster. So just looking at overall deaths is not a sensible way to determine which part of the game is most dangerous. If a terrible players dies 1000 times in D1, and 0 times in zot5, does that mean D1 is more dangerous than Zot5? No, it means that player is really bad a crawl. He never got a chance to die anywhere else.

Anyway, I thought it was pretty well agreed zot5 is the most dangerous part of the game. I would consider that "Post lair"

Yes, I agree in early D cheap deaths are much more prevalent. But I wouldn't call that hard, it's mostly a matter of recognizing those "cheap death" situations ahead of time.

[Viashino_wizard]

Anyway, I thought it was pretty well agreed zot5 is the most dangerous part of the game. I would consider that "Post lair"

In absolute terms, Zot: 5 is more dangerous. In terms of relative difficulty, early D is often more dangerous for a low level character with their starting gear and a bunch of mostly-unidentified consumables than Zot: 5 is for a level 27 character with a bunch of good gear, a suite of resistances, stacks of ?blink, ?fog, ?tele, !heal, !cure, a source of Haste, some useful spells, etc. This depends largely on how strong your character combination is at the start of the game (TrMo vs. FeTm) and how well they're set up to deal with OOFs and ALiches by the time they reach Zot.

[dirtywick]

Because the most basic tactics in the game is being able to walk away.

Being able to walk at the same speed or faster than a monster is *extremely* powerful, and the fewer monsters you can walk at the same speed or faster than, the larger the penalty you're taking, what's more the slower you are than a monster, the larger disadvantage you're at.

Being a naga is a movement speed disadvantage, Using Chei is a movement speed disadvantage, taking both penalties in combination is MUCH worse than taking either one individually.

It's a larger disadvantage than permanent Stasis (e.x. Fo), or permanent -Cast (e.x. Trog), or being unable to use wands or equipment (E.x. 0.13 Fe).

Additionally, while being a NaXX^Chei gives you a larger penalty than being any other sort of Chei worshipper, it gives you no additional benefits (Well, other than the possibly dubious benefit of being able to gain piety slightly faster)

It's not that it's an unwinnable combo, it's just that you're accepting one of the largest net penalties available in the game.

You can't walk away anyway so it doesn't matter how bad you are at it.

Na get the Chei powers and stats faster, a powerful free melee ability based off of stats, have a large hp pool, an innate ranged attack that costs no skill to use, and lower shield skill requirement. These are all of particular benefit to a chei worshiper. Opinions on Chei aside, Na have what a chei needs with a downside of being bad at what you're going to be bad at.

[diviton]

Because the most basic tactics in the game is being able to walk away.

Being able to walk at the same speed or faster than a monster is *extremely* powerful, and the fewer monsters you can walk at the same speed or faster than, the larger the penalty you're taking, what's more the slower you are than a monster, the larger disadvantage you're at.

Being a naga is a movement speed disadvantage, Using Chei is a movement speed disadvantage, taking both penalties in combination is MUCH worse than taking either one individually.

It's a larger disadvantage than permanent Stasis (e.x. Fo), or permanent -Cast (e.x. Trog), or being unable to use wands or equipment (E.x. 0.13 Fe).

Additionally, while being a NaXX^Chei gives you a larger penalty than being any other sort of Chei worshipper, it gives you no additional benefits (Well, other than the possibly dubious benefit of being able to gain piety slightly faster)

It's not that it's an unwinnable combo, it's just that you're accepting one of the largest net penalties available in the game.

You can't walk away anyway so it doesn't matter how bad you are at it.

Na get the Chei powers and stats faster, a powerful free melee ability based off of stats, have a large hp pool, an innate ranged attack that costs no skill to use, and lower shield skill requirement. These are all of particular benefit to a chei worshiper. Opinions on Chei aside, Na have what a chei needs with a downside of being bad at what you're going to be bad at.

I agree with this. Neither Naga or Chei worshippers are going to be running away from things, so the fact that their weaknesses overlap is nice. I recently won with a NaWr of Chei and it was a surprisingly easy combo. Naga breath dealt with a lot of early threats and since you rack up piety super fast as a Naga, you have huge stat boosts before you even hit Lair. After that, you just have to not screw up since every spell is castable with all that Int.

[Viashino_wizard]

You can't walk away anyway so it doesn't matter how bad you are at it..

It does, actually. Accentuating your weaknesses is very dangerous. It's why Ely, Mahkleb and Fedhas are all such strong gods: their abilities can be used to cover a lot of species/background weaknesses while being universally useful. I'd argue that the only situation in crawl where making a weakness worse isn't bad is when you go Berserker as a species with bad magic aptitiudes (Tr, Mi, etc). But that's not even a clear-cut example, since the weakness is only being increased from one direction: the "no magic" conduct is completely unaffected by bad magic aptitudes, whereas Chei's "reduced movement speed" conduct stacks with Naga's slow movement speed.

Even if you can't run away regardless, you're giving enemies extra auts to do stuff every time you have to take a step in combat.

[Siegurt]

You can't walk away anyway so it doesn't matter how bad you are at it.

Na get the Chei powers and stats faster, a powerful free melee ability based off of stats, have a large hp pool, an innate ranged attack that costs no skill to use, and lower shield skill requirement. These are all of particular benefit to a chei worshiper. Opinions on Chei aside, Na have what a chei needs with a downside of being bad at what you're going to be bad at.

I agree with this. Neither Naga or Chei worshippers are going to be running away from things, so the fact that their weaknesses overlap is nice. I recently won with a NaWr of Chei and it was a surprisingly easy combo. Naga breath dealt with a lot of early threats and since you rack up piety super fast as a Naga, you have huge stat boosts before you even hit Lair. After that, you just have to not screw up since every spell is castable with all that Int.

If you are a Na not of Chei, and you spot something that moves normal speed at range 8, you can take 20 steps (away) before it's adjacent to you, or if you spit poison at it first, you can take 17 steps away. That's room to reposition yourself so you don't get attacked from multiple sides, or have it take a bunch of poison damage, or activate a teleport or do all kinds of things (Including getting to a staircase or behind a door much of the time)

If you are a Na of Chei (with max piety), you can take 4 steps away before they catch up with you.

If you are a Hu of Chei (with max piety) you can take 8 steps away.

(All subject to energy randomization of course)

Chei's piety builds *extremely* quickly, whether you're a Naga or not (It's more highly based on number of kills than speed difference).

[Siegurt]

Also if you are a Na of Not-Chei you can Haste and/or Swiftness and actually be faster than a normal speed creature.

[Sandman25]

At low piety Na of Chei is not much worse than Na of any other god.
At high piety Na has +15 Dex which is equivalent of 2.5 levels in Stealth (with high Stealth factor of Na 18) so I am sure there are situations where Na of Chei survives while Na of other god does not (banishment, paralysis, mutations). Na of Chei at max piety is much stronger than any other Na so there will be less fights which it should avoid. So I have mixed feelings, I don't see how Na of Chei is much harder than Na of Nemelex/Oka/Ash (these gods I tried with Na).

[and into]

If you think nagas can't or shouldn't ever move away from enemies, then (pardon the bluntness) you are playing Nagas poorly.

Nagas are worse at walking away than any other species, and they cannot retreat indefinitely from a much larger range of enemies than any other species. That's a liability, but saying that they can't reposition or engage in tactical retreats during fights is like saying that minotaurs should never cast spells just because their aptitudes are bad. These weaknesses or liabilities shift around the value of certain tactics relative to each other, but that doesn't mean those tactics are suddenly worthless.

Now, at high piety, Chei *so* strongly devalues movement that taking any step when enemies are in LOS (or sometimes even when they aren't!) is very dangerous, but that's really not the case for Nagas who aren't following Chei. Going from "slower than most enemies" (Naga) to "each 'move' for me equals nearly three turns for most enemies" (max piety Chei Naga) is a really, really big difference and I honestly just don't know what to say to someone who denies that, especially after Siegurt spelled out some realistic scenarios that highlight precisely this difference.

[Siegurt]

At low piety Na of Chei is not much worse than Na of any other god.

Immediately on joining, Chei gives a significant movement speed drawback (1.4->1.8, or double your speed deficit, immediately halving the number of movements you can take away from creatures), and no measurable benefits (+1 to str/int/dex typically have no measurable benefit, bend time is ok, but won't be very effective immediately with no invocations and no built-up piety).

At high piety Na has +15 Dex which is equivalent of 2.5 levels in Stealth (with high Stealth factor of Na 18) so I am sure there are situations where Na of Chei survives while Na of other god does not (banishment, paralysis, mutations). Na of Chei at max piety is much stronger than any other Na so there will be less fights which it should avoid. So I have mixed feelings, I don't see how Na of Chei is much harder than Na of Nemelex/Oka/Ash (these gods I tried with Na).

It's arguable that Chei at high piety when used properly with good invocations at high piety is a fairly powerful god. The problem with a Naga of Chei, particuarly (in comparison with other races), is that the weakness you get in exchange for that power is made significantly worse (in fact twice as bad) and Chei doesn't become significantly more powerful as a result.

[and into]

At low piety Na of Chei is not much worse than Na of any other god.
At high piety Na has +15 Dex which is equivalent of 2.5 levels in Stealth (with high Stealth factor of Na 18) so I am sure there are situations where Na of Chei survives while Na of other god does not (banishment, paralysis, mutations).

Sorry for double post, but:

In early game you have fewer consumables, so any additional slowness is relatively speaking a greater liability. Later in the game, you've almost certainly IDed a couple of potions of speed, and have a good shot at having found some kind of renewable or semi-renewable form of haste, which Chei blocks. In other words, Chei's drawback kind of sucks throughout the game. It is fine to like Chei and think playing Chei is fun, and once you get 15 invocations and max piety Chei does provide powerful tools and boosts. But his drawback never stops being a major liability, and that goes *more* so for Nagas than any other species.

Also not sure what paralysis and mutations have to do with equivalent of 2.5 levels of stealth, and being banished while worshiping Chei is probably the single scariest thing that can happen to you unless your character is so buff that you've basically already won the game short of some really bad, likely hubris-inspired misplay.

Ash gives you more than 2.5 stealth at much lower piety and without breaking both of your kneecaps, by the way.

[Sandman25]

2.5 extra levels in Stealth can allow to put exclusion on Erolcha, for example.

[Siegurt]

2.5 extra levels in Stealth can allow to put exclusion on Erolcha, for example.

And Oka gives you 5 extra levels of stealth at * for a minor piety and MP cost...

[crate]

2.5 extra levels in Stealth can allow to put exclusion on Erolcha, for example.

You can't actually prove that this is what happens. It's quite possible that you would have just not woken Erolcha up either way. Because of this it's very hard to tell how much stealth skill actually helps you out in most cases.

I think na of chei is bad compared to other races of chei in a majority of cases. If you want a race that is a good chei worshipper, try ghoul.

[Sandman25]

This is why I wrote "2.5 extra levels in Stealth can allow to put exclusion on Erolcha, for example."

[Sandman25]

2.5 extra levels in Stealth can allow to put exclusion on Erolcha, for example.

And Oka gives you 5 extra levels of stealth at * for a minor piety and MP cost...

Yes, it's possible too. But less likely since Heroism is activated ability and lasts not too long with low Inv.

[some12fat2move]

2.5 extra levels in Stealth can allow to put exclusion on Erolcha, for example.

At the price of potentially allowing Erolcha to put 3 casts of banishment on you before you can do shit about it, for example. For a non-Chei naga or a non-naga Chei worshipper in that situation, it would be at most two. Despite the extra stealth from dex, Chei makes your exploration more dangerous, not less.

[Sandman25]

Yes, I agree.

[diviton]

I'm not saying Na of Chei is great, but I found it surprisingly easy. Anecdotal? Sure. All I'm saying is that while, yes, your terrible movement does provide a problem, it is compensated to a fairly significant extent by a +15 to all stats, which can happen by Lair. In other words, when I got surrounded by 5 blink frogs as a NaWr of Chei, despite my inability to run, I handled them better than a character with normal movement speed would have. The main challenge is whether or not the early/mid game will provide you with the resources for the end game, since the end game monsters are much less impressed by your +15 to all stats.

Still, even Zot and tons of OoF's wasn't a problem. I really did feel pretty untouchable.

[Wasian]

As you probably know, I am not a fan of all the Cheibriados dissing, but daggaz reply made me think of a fun tavern game:

List an item that you think is a game-winner (for you, not for the best Crawl player in the world).
How many of us can pull of a near-sure win when finding +6 rElec running boots on D:1?
Which item would you choose if forced to win a game of Crawl at gunpoint?

The +∞, +∞ Axe of Woe from Meatsprint

[duvessa]

I would choose the Orb of Zot personally.

[Hirsch I]

congrats, now The Orb is guaranteed to generate in ALL of your games. a genie made your wish come true.

[siprus]

As you probably know, I am not a fan of all the Cheibriados dissing, but daggaz reply made me think of a fun tavern game:

List an item that you think is a game-winner (for you, not for the best Crawl player in the world).
How many of us can pull of a near-sure win when finding +6 rElec running boots on D:1?
Which item would you choose if forced to win a game of Crawl at gunpoint?

That depends how good randar it's possible to get. Vampiric Double sword +9, +9 (+++rF, +++rC, +++rN, rElec, rPois +6str, +6 dex, +6, int sINV) Might effect your winning chances in your favor (Though i'm not sure if that is possible weapon).