Unable to proceed past the early game

[Hopeless]

Hopeless: rPois+ is the most resist poison players can get under normal circumstances, so wearing extra rPois+ items doesn't help. You can see this on the % screen, where rPois is listed with a single pip of resistance.

Sar's advice about orb spiders is solid, but as for why you were having such troubles with poison otherwise, can you give more detail? What were your defenses like? Did you rest off the poison you had before fighting additional monsters w/ poison? Did you draw out spiders in the smallest groups you could?

I'm sure you're sick of questions like these, but they're the best way for the community to get a sense of what might be helpful advice at this point.

I've found that if I have a decent killing tool and good defenses (say 30+ AC and 10+ EV or 20+ AC and 30+ EV) poisoning isn't too awful in the spider's nest with careful play, though I prefer to either have rPois or regeneration (or ideally both) so that I can get back up to fighting shape more quickly after each fight.

I am aware of the fact that rPois doesn't stack. I think it should. Clearly poison can get through even if you have rPois so having more of it should be more helpful. (Imho.) Defenses:159 hp 33 AC 12 Ev 14Sh (buckler of protection giving +5 to ac). I played the game as I know how. There were tricky moments (ambush is a apparently word meaning "Spiders attack from all around you!") and definitely situations where I could have hid better or run better. And it is ALWAYS the case that it is my own damned fault for dying. Again. And Again. And again. No point in not blaming the victim, eh?

The poison was a nuisance mainly because whilst being jumped by spiders orbs of destruction would track me and make a mess of my hp so the small amounts lost to poison added up. And quaffing cures didn't help, nor did regen because theyd keep hitting with more. (it was mostly the zillions of redbacks coming out of nowhere that screwed me poison-wise. The multiple orbs at once did the rest. I did manage to let quite a few spiders jump to my rescue as orb blockers but that tactic only worked so much when there were 3+ orb spiders tossing them. In the past I have not had such trouble with spider at all. The worst mobs were the moths which I had a trident with sInv for, and Emperor Scorps who weren't so much a threat as a never dying menace. But didn't see either of those this run.

As for a morgue, I deliberately chose to not post one as I don't think critiquing my play at this point will help me at all except to increase my rage. because: CLEARLY IT IS MY DAMNED FAULT.

[and into]

(Realplayer DCSS Confessions: I don't blame you for being upset, spider is always a migraine and frankly I'm glad I was already decent at the game when it was added as a branch because goddamn webs, orbs, and constant poison. In terms of game play experience, spider is basically the first, training wheels version of the Hells branches, IMO; even has an elemental theme to go with the others.)

[Sar]

If Spider had less webs just lying around and being annoying it would be probably my favourite Lair branch. Open space + fast monsters = fun times.

Edit: from what I read it sounds like you were simply fighting too much things at once and not retreating far enough into safe territory to heal up.

[crate]

eh, I don't think spider layouts are really that interesting. Lair layouts, on the other hand, are most excellent for the variety of positioning situations they provide.

[tedric]

from what I read it sounds like you were simply fighting too much things at once and not retreating far enough into safe territory to heal up.

That's what I was thinking: this looks like a job for an especially careful application of crate's law (the better the player, the less often they move toward an enemy).

Because of the open layouts and fast monsters, it's hard to rely on normal positioning tactics. That means it's extra important to:
- not use autoexplore
- venture outward carefully, moving in spirals from each staircase
- try to reveal uncovered tiles as close to the edge of LOS as possible
- move directly back towards the nearest staircase as soon as an enemy appears

Most spiders will catch up with you long before you reach the stairs, but at least you can minimize the chances of waking up lots of them and getting surrounded. And one-on-one, you can probably handle letting the spider hassle you while you continue retreating all the way to the stairs in lots of cases.

[Sar]

I don't think some benefit you can possibly get from not using autoexplore is worth the hassle of not using autoexplore. It's not orb vault or similar area. And yes, moving backwards when some spiders noticed you is a good idea.

[tedric]

TBH, I do often use auto-explore in Spider. But I've gotten into many situations where autoexplore takes me on some winding, snakelike path deep into the middle of an unexplored region, where direct retreat to the stairs is cut off by still-unexplored tiles and fighting anywhere along the path back risks waking and drawing enemies from multiple directions. It's a recipe for getting surrounded and/or being unable to stair-dance, especially when most of the enemies are faster than me.

[Hopeless]

TBH, I do often use auto-explore in Spider. But I've gotten into many situations where autoexplore takes me on some winding, snakelike path deep into the middle of an unexplored region, where direct retreat to the stairs is cut off by still-unexplored tiles and fighting anywhere along the path back risks waking and drawing enemies from multiple directions. It's a recipe for getting surrounded and/or being unable to stair-dance, especially when most of the enemies are faster than me.

I stopped using Auto-explore outside the dungeon a while ago because of this (and sometimes in it too). It invariably chooses a path I would not even if it is marginally faster than shift-arrow. (OK sometimes when there is nothing around it is insanely fast but that doesn't happen much in the branches.)

I was being as careful as I know how, though perhaps I should have been more wall walking than usual because of the nature of spider. It was a case of stuff appearing out of nowhere, in multiple instances. I almost decided to skip it with this character (after seeing how difficult the first level was) but then I realized what I had left would be infinitely harder (swamp, vaults, depths, zot. Assuming I wasn't doing Abyss, Pan, Hell or whatnot.) My feeling is that the game increases exponentially in difficulty between the end of Lair/Mines and Depths/Vaults/etc. If you aren't totally geared up and properly set for the later game it just kills you. I am sure there will be some naysaying to this and I know that the game is winnable (as so many of you have shown) but the knack is beyond me. It is very very very upsetting to spend so much time only to be ruthlessly harassed to death by the end game(I don't mean to imply that I have gotten TO the end game but that the stages are much more end-gamish), every single time.

[crate]

So one thing that is not obvious and yet actually quite important is that getting webbed in spider is basically the same as being marked, for the duration of you being in the web.

This is because spiders have "web sense".

I don't know why this exists.

[vulsuck]

So one thing that is not obvious and yet actually quite important is that getting webbed in spider is basically the same as being marked, for the duration of you being in the web.

This is because spiders have "web sense".

I don't know why this exists.

Well I learned something today. Is this documented in the game when you look at a web or are caught in a web?

Hopeless:
I wouldn't say that there's an exponential increase in difficulty through the rest of the game, but it's certainly true that there are large jumps in difficulty between Lair/Orc and the lair branches or between the lair branches and Vaults/Depths.

There's a few milestones in the game such as getting to the temple or getting to Lair. The next one (which you are approaching) is getting your first rune. Honestly, I don't think you're that far off. As others have mentioned, your positioning starts to become more important after you've cleared the main dungeon. This is partly because the branches usually don't have layouts that let you retreat to a corridor to easily fight enemies 1v1 so you are more likely to be in a fight with multiple dangerous enemies, particularly if you are not very careful.

[moocowmoocow]

So one thing that is not obvious and yet actually quite important is that getting webbed in spider is basically the same as being marked, for the duration of you being in the web.

This is because spiders have "web sense".

I don't know why this exists.

What the fuck???

[tasonir]

Well that's quite odd. Does that mean that if I'm in a safe spot in spider, and I want to pull more spiders, I could just step into a web and pull spiders to me? Does web sense cover the entire floor? If so it would probably be easy to get way too many spiders if you have only cleared your section, but if you've cleared most of the level it might be nice to get the leftovers...

[1010011010]

Spiders feel vibrations in their webs which tell it when it's caught prey, some spiders are so good a recognizing various vibrations that it can tell what animal is in it's web (it might be something that bites back).

The in game spider web sense not being documented is ridiculous, and the mechanic itself is also arguably bad.

[tasonir]

To those who think I should be able to bring a MiBe to victory, apparently you are dead wrong.

This doesn't surprise me. Nagas, especially of Chei, are about as non-standard of a build as you can get. There's a decent amount of relearning to be able to switch back and forth between them and other characters. If you're getting far (multiple runes) with one, I'd stick with it until you win. After you get the win, jump over to the other side and stay there until you get a win.

Eventually jumping back and forth isn't too hard, but doing it when you haven't yet won just makes getting that first win harder.

[Quazifuji]

As for a morgue, I deliberately chose to not post one as I don't think critiquing my play at this point will help me at all except to increase my rage. because: CLEARLY IT IS MY DAMNED FAULT.

If you don't want people telling you what mistakes you made and how you could have prevented your death, why are you posting here for advice. You're getting better as a player, that's obvious. It seems like the help people have given as part of it. Getting better doesn't mean you never have any more YASDs, and obviously you still end up with some "learning deaths" where you get killed by an enemy you weren't used to fighting or you're playing an character you're not used to and make a mistake simply because you didn't know better. That doesn't mean you're not getting better.

Don't take people's critiques as criticism, I don't think they're meant that way. You came here for help, so people are offering help. Now you're complaining that the help people are offering makes you angrier. I don't see why the death being your fault makes it more rage-inducing. If the death's your fault, then that means you get to learn something and try again. I'd much rather learn a lesson and die with a promising character than get killed because of something stupid I couldn't have prevented.

And finally, when I said you could probably win with a MiBe, I shouldn't have made it sound easy. I didn't mean it would be effortless. As someone else pointed out, a NaTm of Chei is a very unique playstyle, so, while MiBe is an easier playstyle, that doesn't mean the transition was effortless. If you were able to learn how to play a NaTm of Chei well enough to get one to Vaults, I believe, with some practice and effort, you could learn to play a MiBe well enough to win. It may still take a good number of tries and a good number of YASDs, but I think you've got it in you. You just need to be more patient.

Spiders feel vibrations in their webs which tell it when it's caught prey, some spiders are so good a recognizing various vibrations that it can tell what animal is in it's web (it might be something that bites back).

The in game spider web sense not being documented is ridiculous, and the mechanic itself is also arguably bad.

Can a spider sense something in its web if it is not itself in a web? It makes sense that a spider can tell when its web catches something when it's elsewhere in the web, I assume it can't sense the vibrations of it catching something if it's across the room as is the case in crawl.

At the very least, the mechanic is definitely absurdly spoilery right now and needs something to indicate it - I often deliberately run through webs in corridors when no enemies are around so they don't trip me up later. But it also seems like an awkward mechanic in general that may not need to be there at all. This obviously isn't the place for this discussion, though.

[Eyesburn]

It invariably chooses a path I would not even if it is marginally faster than shift-arrow. (OK sometimes when there is nothing around it is insanely fast but that doesn't happen much in the branches.)

You can customize autoexplore with these options:

  Code:

travel_delay = 20 (defaults to -1 for online servers)
        How long travel waits after each move (milliseconds), and also
        how long auto-explore waits after each move unless explore_delay
        is set. Depends on platform. Setting to -1 will jump to end of
        travel - you will not see the individual moves.

explore_delay = -1
        How long auto-explore waits after each move (milliseconds). Depends on
        platform. In particular, setting travel_delay = -1 and
        explore_delay = 20 means you will see the invividual moves of
        autoexplore, but not the invidivual moves of other forms of travel.
        Setting to -1 means the auto-explore delay will be the same as
        travel_delay.

explore_wall_bias = 0
        Adjusts how much autoexplore favours attempting to discover room
        perimeters and corners. At higher values, autoexplore will more
        heavily favour visiting squares that are next to walls; at 0 it
        will not favour them at all.

explore_improved = false
        If set to true explore will attempt to reduce zig-zagging during
        auto-explore. On average it increases the number of turns taken
        by about 0.9%, sometimes actually speeding it up slightly and
        sometimes increasing the turns taken by up to 5%, with
        pathological cases causing a 13% increase.

travel_key_stop = true
        If set to true then travel will stop at any keypress.

If your autoexplore is too fast, as you say insanely fast, maybe set explore_delay to 5 or higher.
I like my travel delay to be lower, but my explore delay higher (10-20) so actually I can see what Im exploring and where Im going.
And I think explore_wall_bias can have max value ~70 (sometimes I set it to 10-35, and sometimes I like it 0).
If you autoexplore an open area, maybe it is ok to set explore_improved=true (to reduce zig-zag movement) and explore_wall_bias to higher values so you hug walls (also notice that both explore_improved and explore_wall_bias will increase your turns count).
Anyway try variuos values and see what fit you.

[arielle]

So instead of giving you lots of advice and overwhelming you with information, I will provide instead this single, not-as-simple-as-it-sounds piece of information I use to tell apart good players from not-good players: You should almost never move toward an enemy that is in your line-of-sight. Once you understand this you will improve.

I don't know if the Original Poster was able to implement this deceptively-simple piece of advice, but I'm finding my attempts to do so greatly improving my results. Thank you!

[Hopeless]

Bombed out again this time on v4 after getting through shoals and spider for the runes. This will be the last time. Thanks for the help.

[WalkerBoh]

If it makes you feel any better, I have 90 wins and a 5% win rate and still consistently lose characters in lair branches, vaults, elf, Zot, extended... just about everywhere really. Can be incredibly frustrating, but it only makes it that much sweeter when you do finally triumph.

[Hopeless]

If it makes you feel any better, I have 90 wins and a 5% win rate and still consistently lose characters in lair branches, vaults, elf, Zot, extended... just about everywhere really. Can be incredibly frustrating, but it only makes it that much sweeter when you do finally triumph.

My beef isn't with losing. (Seems inevitable and consistently repeatable.) It is that I keep dying to op stuff in the same way. Either I am an idiot (very possible) or the game is rigged to make it nearly impossible for those who aren't entirely spoilered to get past this stage. I know, I know. Thousands of people have won. Of course that is out of millions of characters, but hey I am just not in that .1%.

What is irksome more than anything is the huge time "investment" all those non-wins have cost me to no avail. I am not learning anything more from this. Just stuck. So that was my last game. I'll post the dump for posterity.

  Code:

Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.15-a0-60-g2d7d1c5 (webtiles) character file.

253145 Hopeless2 the Impaler (level 18, -1/163 HPs)
             Began as a Lava Orc Gladiator on Apr 4, 2014.
             Was the Champion of Beogh.
             Shot with an arrow by something (22 damage)
             ... led by an ironheart preserver
             ... on Level 4 of the Vaults on Apr 5, 2014.
             The game lasted 09:54:40 (55822 turns).

Hopeless2 the Impaler (Lava Orc Gladiator)         Turns: 55822, Time: 09:54:40

HP  -1/163       AC 31     Str 24      XL: 18   Next: 95%
MP  24/29        EV 14     Int 14      God: Beogh [******]
Gold 1187        SH  0     Dex 15      Spells:  4 memorised, 11 levels left

rFire  + + .     SeeInvis .     a - +5,+6 demon trident (freeze)
rCold  + . .     Clarity  .     o - +2 ice dragon armour
rNeg   . . .     Conserve .     (no shield)
rPois  .         rCorr    .     q - +2 helmet {Int+3}
rElec  .         rRot     .     d - +1 cloak of the Salamander {Dam+4}
SustAb . .       Spirit   .     O - +2 pair of gloves {Str+3}
rMut   .         Warding  .     T - +1 pair of boots
Gourm  +         Stasis   .     l - amulet of the gourmand
MR     ++...                    V - ring of protection from magic
                                g - ring of regeneration

@: repel missiles, drained, very resistant to hostile enchantments, extremely
unstealthy
A: walk on water, clever 1, conserve scrolls, saprovore 1, spit poison 1
a: Spit Poison, Smiting, Recall Orcish Followers, Renounce Religion
}: 2/15 runes: barnacled, gossamer


You were on level 4 of the Vaults.
You worshipped Beogh.
Beogh was exalted by your worship.
You were very full.

You visited 7 branches of the dungeon, and saw 42 of its levels.
You also visited: Sewer and Bailey.

You collected 3894 gold pieces.
You spent 2707 gold pieces at shops.

Inventory:

Hand weapons
 a - a +5,+6 demon trident of freezing (weapon)
 h - a +2,+4 eveningstar of draining
 m - a +2,+0 sling of velocity
 Z - the +2,+2 mace "Pairi" {flame, -Tele +Inv rPois}
   (You bought it in a shop on level 4 of the Orcish Mines)   
   
   It emits flame when wielded, causing extra injury to most foes and up to
   double damage against particularly susceptible opponents.
   
   It protects you from poison.
   It lets you turn invisible.
   It prevents most forms of teleportation.
Missiles
 e - 11 throwing nets (quivered)
 F - 34 sling bullets of flame
 I - 19 poisoned sling bullets
 N - 6 darts
 W - 17 sling bullets of frost
Armour
 d - the +1 cloak of the Salamander (worn) {Dam+4}
   (You bought it in a shop on level 4 of the Orcish Mines)   
   
   It affects your damage with ranged weapons and melee attacks (+4).
 n - a +2 fire dragon armour
 o - a +2 ice dragon armour (worn)
 q - a +2 helmet of intelligence (worn)
 y - a +2 buckler of protection
 O - a +2 pair of gloves of strength (worn)
 T - a +1 pair of boots (worn)
Magical devices
 c - a wand of cold (10)
 j - a wand of draining (3)
 k - a wand of fire (3)
 v - a wand of fire (7)
 x - a wand of disintegration (22)
 B - a wand of digging (6)
 R - a wand of enslavement (13)
Comestibles
 b - an apple
 f - 3 meat rations
 i - 9 bread rations
 p - 2 chokos
 z - 2 rotting chunks of warg flesh
 G - 5 chunks of yaktaur flesh
 H - 7 chunks of yaktaur flesh
Scrolls
 s - 2 scrolls of fear
 t - 4 scrolls of remove curse
 w - 2 scrolls of fog
 C - 10 scrolls of teleportation
 K - a scroll of amnesia
Jewellery
 g - a ring of regeneration (left hand)
 l - an amulet of the gourmand (around neck)
 V - a ring of protection from magic (right hand)
Potions
 r - a potion of haste
 u - a potion of restore abilities
 A - a potion of curing
 L - a potion of brilliance
Miscellaneous
 D - an ornate deck of war
 E - an ornate deck of war
 J - a disc of storms


   Skills:
 + Level 15.3(13.7) Fighting
   Level 12.0(10.6) Axes
 - Level 15.0(13.5) Maces & Flails
 * Level 15.7(14.1) Polearms
   Level 3.1(1.9) Staves
 - Level 2.0(0.9) Throwing
 - Level 15.0(13.5) Armour
 + Level 11.9(10.5) Dodging
   Level 3.4(2.2) Shields
   Level 4.7(3.5) Hexes
 - Level 10.0(8.6) Charms
 - Level 4.6(3.4) Necromancy
 - Level 6.2(4.9) Translocations
 + Level 2.5(1.4) Air Magic
 - Level 8.0(6.7) Invocations


You had 11 spell levels left.
You knew the following spells:

 Your Spells              Type           Power        Failure   Level  Hunger
b - Repel Missiles        Chrm/Air       ##....       10%         2    ###....
c - Blink                 Tloc           N/A          10%         2    ###....
d - Animate Skeleton      Necr           N/A          14%         1    ##.....
e - Apportation           Tloc           ##........   6%          1    ##.....


Dungeon Overview and Level Annotations

Branches:
Dungeon (15/15)            Temple (0/1) D:7             Orc (4/4) D:9
    Elf (0/3) Orc:4          Lair (8/8) D:9          Shoals (5/5) Lair:5
 Spider (5/5) Lair:5        Slime (0/6) Lair:8       Vaults (4/5) D:14
  Blade (1/1) Vaults:3      Crypt (0/5) Vaults:2     Depths (0/5) D:15

Altars:
Dithmenos
Elyvilon
Fedhas
Makhleb
Nemelex Xobeh
Sif Muna
Trog
Xom
Yredelemnul
Beogh

Shops:
D:13 [   D:15 *   Orc:1 (*!   Orc:4 ([[(   Shoals:1 =   Vaults:1 (

Portals:
Trove: D:10 (give +5,+5 demon whip)


Innate Abilities, Weirdness & Mutations

You have stony skin.
Your flesh is almost immune to the effects of heat.
Your fire spells are more powerful.
Your flesh is vulnerable to cold.
Your heat harms attackers.
You bathe your surroundings in blazing heat.
You are too hot to use scrolls.
You are very good at protecting items from fire.
You can tolerate rotten meat.
You can walk on water.
Your mind is acute. (Int +2)
You can spit poison.


Message History

The arrow misses you.
Your orc warrior throws a tomahawk of returning.
The tomahawk of returning hits the vault warden.
The vault warden hits you from afar with a glowing glaive!
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
The yaktaur shoots a poisoned bolt. The poisoned bolt hits Rocco.
The ogre hits Rocco with a giant club!
Rocco hits the ogre with a glowing dire flail!
Drink which item? (? for menu, Esc to quit)
You feel better. The ogre hits you with a giant club.
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
The ogre is singed by your heat.
The ogre is lightly wounded.
Your orc warrior throws a tomahawk of returning.
The tomahawk of returning hits the vault warden.
The weapon returns to your orc warrior! Your yaktaur skeleton hits the ogre.
The ogre dies!
You hear a loud twanging sound.
The arrow hits you!
You die...

(..#      #....Z)c...#
@..#    ########o#####
.###    #......)o#
%#      #......)(#
..      #......Z(#
..      #.......(#
.#      #......@@#
O       #......@O#
        #.......@#
        #........#
        #........#
        ####+#####


You could see 2 vault wardens, an ironbrand convoker, a yaktaur, an ogre, the
friendly Rocco the orc warlord, a friendly orc warrior (frenzied) and 2 friendly
yaktaur skeletons.

Vanquished Creatures
  Margery (Vaults:3)
  Xtahua (Blade)
  Asterion (Vaults:3)
  A sphinx (Vaults:3)
  Agnes (Spider:5)
  2 frost giants
  A vault warden (Vaults:3)
  3 emperor scorpions
  A ghost moth (Spider:4)
  4 stone giants
  A deep elf death mage (Vaults:3)
  4 yaktaur captains
  A jiangshi (Vaults:2)
  3 fire dragons
  A siren (Shoals:1)
  A vault guard (Vaults:2)
  2 merfolk impalers (Shoals:5)
  A merfolk javelineer (Shoals:5)
  8 ironheart preservers
  2 ravenous item mimics (Vaults:4)
  2 hydras
  Erica (Orc:3)
  2 merfolk aquamancers
  3 ogre magi
  7 dancing weapons
  A tengu warrior (D:15)
  4 hell knights (Vaults:3)
  3 orc high priests (Orc:4)
  6 centaur warriors
  2 skeletal warriors (Vaults:1)
  A deep elf knight (Vaults:1)
  An unseen horror (D:15)
  A fire crab (Vaults:4)
  An orb spider (Spider:5)
  2 hill giants (D:12)
  5 harpies
  3 orc knights
  Pikel (D:5)
  6 ironbrand convokers
  4 water nymphs
  2 deep elf summoners (Vaults:3)
  A lindwurm (Lair:4)
  A deep elf conjurer (Vaults:3)
  A wizard (Vaults:3)
  A draconian (shapeshifter) (Vaults:3)
  11 wolf spiders
  3 griffons
  8 manticores
  2 cyclopes (D:15)
  4 elephants
  A moth of wrath (Spider:5)
  2 gargoyles (D:13)
  A black mamba (Lair:4)
  A vault sentinel (Vaults:3)
  4 mermaids
  8 spiny frogs
  13 yaktaurs
  A silent spectre (Vaults:2)
  A tengu conjurer (D:15)
  4 efreet
  3 demonic crawlers
  A komodo dragon (Lair:4)
  2 deep elf priests
  11 jumping spiders
  11 merfolk
  6 trolls
  5 blink frogs
  6 freezing wraiths
  5 two-headed ogres
  2 boulder beetles
  4 slime creatures (D:12)
  2 shadows
  2 ravens (D:15)
  8 trapdoor spiders
  A human (D:7)
  A flying skull (Vaults:2)
  A wraith (D:14)
  8 snapping turtles
  A spriggan (shapeshifter) (Vaults:4)
  A wyvern (Lair:7)
  A fire dragon skeleton (D:14)
  13 redbacks
  9 water elementals
  A hog (shapeshifter) (Vaults:2)
  12 tarantellas
  2 sharks
  14 yaks
  4 deep elf fighters
  A golden eye (shapeshifter) (Vaults:3)
  6 vampire mosquitoes
  A hungry ghost (D:15)
  12 ugly things
  2 wolves (Lair:4)
  2 hippogriffs
  2 mottled dragons
  A water moccasin (Lair:7)
  2 wargs
  14 spiders
  A soldier ant (shapeshifter) (Vaults:3)
  6 orc warriors
  17 ogres
  3 slaves (D:5)
  3 porcupines
  A phantom (D:6)
  3 sky beasts
  3 yellow wasps
  5 ice beasts
  2 black bears
  An ogre (shapeshifter) (Vaults:3)
  A giant goldfish (D:9)
  2 crocodiles
  5 centaurs
  Sigmund (D:4)
  A boring beetle (Lair:6)
  3 big kobolds (Sewer)
  4 giant slugs
  10 giant frogs
  5 scorpions
  An eye of draining (D:14)
  5 killer bees
  2 electric eels
  6 crimson imps
  2 jellies
  2 big fish (Lair:8)
  3 giant frog zombies
  3 goliath beetles
  Crazy Yiuf (D:7)
  A centaur skeleton (D:8)
  12 orc priests
  3 hounds
  2 giant frog skeletons
  6 iguanas
  11 orc wizards
  2 orange rats (Vaults:3)
  9 sheep
  6 worker ants
  Jessica (D:3)
  3 gnolls (D:8)
  27 green rats
  An orc skeleton (Orc:2)
  21 adders
  A giant mite (D:1)
  A shadow imp (D:6)
  4 worms
  An adder zombie (D:7)
  2 giant eyeballs
  5 giant geckos
  7 oozes
  39 orcs
  7 ball pythons
  25 bats
  6 giant cockroaches
  23 goblins
  24 hobgoblins
  18 jackals
  6 quokkas
  A giant gecko zombie (D:6)
  13 giant newts
  2 giant spores
  A goblin zombie (Orc:2)
  A hobgoblin skeleton (Orc:2)
  12 kobolds
  2 quokka zombies
  26 rats
  5 ballistomycetes
  A crawling corpse (Vaults:3)
  A fungus (Lair:5)
  3 plants
790 creatures vanquished.

Vanquished Creatures (collateral kills)
  Frederick (Blade)
  Arachne (Spider:2)
  A lich (Vaults:4)
  Rupert (Shoals:1)
  Roxanne (Spider:1)
  Ilsuiw (Shoals:5)
  2 fire giants (Vaults:3)
  Donald (Spider:3)
  A ghost moth (Spider:5)
  Louise (D:14)
  4 vault wardens
  4 emperor scorpions
  Snorg (Lair:7)
  A crystal guardian (Vaults:4)
  11 merfolk impalers
  5 merfolk javelineers
  2 vault guards (Vaults:2)
  Josephine (Orc:2)
  3 yaktaur captains
  2 fire dragons
  2 sirens
  An ice dragon (Vaults:1)
  9 hydras
  6 merfolk aquamancers
  A rakshasa (D:15)
  2 satyrs (Shoals:3)
  7 orc high priests (Orc:4)
  2 centaur warriors
  A hell knight (Vaults:3)
  13 dancing weapons (Blade)
  A catoblepas (D:14)
  2 deep elf knights (Vaults:4)
  9 sea snakes
  An ice devil (D:14)
  2 skeletal warriors (Vaults:1)
  Erolcha (D:10)
  The ghost of celly00 the Conjurer, an experienced DsVM of Makhleb (D:6)
  7 hill giants
  A flayed ghost (Vaults:4)
  12 orb spiders
  4 ironbrand convokers
  5 water nymphs
  14 harpies
  6 orc knights
  A necromancer (Vaults:2)
  A phantasmal warrior (Vaults:2)
  A salamander (shapeshifter) (D:15)
  4 fauns (Shoals:3)
  5 manticores
  5 griffons
  18 wolf spiders
  8 elephants
  5 mermaids
  A cyclops (D:14)
  A black mamba (Lair:7)
  A moth of wrath (Spider:3)
  2 vault sentinels
  A smoke demon (D:14)
  2 drowned souls
  2 fire drakes
  17 yaktaurs
  An iron troll zombie (Orc:2)
  3 trolls
  12 spiny frogs
  3 freezing wraiths
  10 komodo dragons
  12 demonic crawlers
  43 merfolk
  25 jumping spiders
  Sonja (Spider:1)
  A wind drake (Shoals:5)
  3 boulder beetles
  7 snapping turtles
  6 slime creatures (D:12)
  4 two-headed ogres (Vaults:2)
  25 blink frogs
  2 giant leeches (Lair:8)
  A human simulacrum (Vaults:2)
  4 basilisks
  A grizzly bear (Lair:6)
  11 water elementals
  2 wyverns
  18 trapdoor spiders
  10 sharks
  2 deep elf magi
  2 elephant slugs
  A hill giant zombie (D:12)
  51 redbacks
  24 tarantellas
  A wraith (D:14)
  46 yaks
  7 ugly things
  3 shadows
  A deep elf fighter (Vaults:3)
  6 wargs
  A yaktaur simulacrum (Vaults:1)
  An ogre zombie (D:15)
  9 vampire mosquitoes (Lair:8)
  6 hippogriffs
  A chaos spawn (Orc:4)
  13 wolves
  A human skeleton (D:14)
  A necrophage (D:11)
  9 orc warriors
  9 water moccasins
  6 porcupines
  2 sky beasts (D:8)
  A mottled dragon (D:13)
  8 centaurs
  A black bear (Lair:3)
  30 spiders
  9 ogres
  8 yellow wasps
  3 boring beetles
  6 giant goldfish
  An ice beast (D:9)
  A hill giant simulacrum (D:15)
  25 giant frogs
  11 crocodiles
  6 giant slugs
  A big kobold (D:14)
  A lost soul (Vaults:3)
  Blork the orc (D:8)
  An ogre simulacrum (D:14)
  A glowing shapeshifter simulacrum (Vaults:1)
  A warg zombie (Orc:4)
  A komodo dragon skeleton (D:11)
  5 scorpions
  5 killer bees
  6 electric eels
  A quasit (D:13)
  5 crimson imps
  5 goliath beetles
  A centaur zombie (D:7)
  6 hounds
  12 orc priests
  3 iguanas
  8 big fish
  2 worker ants
  10 orc wizards
  A killer bee zombie (D:9)
  23 sheep
  A scorpion zombie (D:8)
  3 orc zombies
  9 adders
  47 green rats
  A shadow imp (D:15)
  5 orc skeletons
  4 white imps (D:14)
  6 worms
  An adder zombie (D:7)
  A giant eyeball (D:11)
  61 orcs
  4 bats
  4 goblins
  A hobgoblin (Orc:4)
  10 jackals
  4 kobolds
  7 quokkas
  A giant spore (D:9)
  3 rats
  7 ballistomycetes
  A bush (Lair:2)
  12 fungi
  30 plants
1071 creatures vanquished.

Vanquished Creatures (others)
  3 orc warlords
  An orc high priest (D:14)
  16 orc warriors
  13 orc knights
  3 wolf spider zombies (Spider:5)
  2 orc sorcerers
  7 drowned souls
  5 redback zombies
  6 merfolk skeletons
  A sea snake skeleton (Shoals:1)
  6 harpy skeletons
  A trapdoor spider zombie (Spider:5)
  A tarantella zombie (Spider:5)
  2 jumping spider zombies
  2 griffon skeletons
  An ugly thing skeleton (Vaults:2)
  A hill giant skeleton (D:14)
  A raven skeleton (D:15)
  An orb spider zombie (Spider:5)
  3 spiny frog skeletons (Lair:8)
  2 water nymph skeletons
  6 human skeletons
  An ogre (Orc:4)
  A manticore skeleton (Shoals:2)
  A fire drake skeleton (Lair:8)
  3 blink frog skeletons (Lair:8)
  5 spider zombies (Spider:5)
  3 komodo dragon skeletons
  7 yaktaur skeletons
  A hippogriff skeleton (Shoals:5)
  A yak skeleton (Lair:7)
  A giant goldfish skeleton (Lair:8)
  7 giant frog skeletons
  37 orc priests
  13 orc wizards
  An adder skeleton (Lair:8)
  2 centaur skeletons (Vaults:3)
  3 elf skeletons
  5 ogre skeletons
  147 orcs
  A jackal (D:9)
  2 giant spores
  4 green rat skeletons (Lair:8)
  An orc skeleton (Shoals:5)
  A quokka (D:9)
  A ballistomycete (D:7)
  4 fungi
  2 plants (Lair:6)
339 creatures vanquished.

Grand Total: 2200 creatures vanquished

Notes
Turn   | Place    | Note
--------------------------------------------------------------
     0 | D:1      | Hopeless2, the Lava Orc Gladiator, began the quest for the Orb.
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 1. HP: 18/18 MP: 1/1
    42 | D:1      | Reached XP level 2. HP: 25/25 MP: 2/2
    87 | D:1      | Reached skill level 3 in Staves
   651 | D:1      | Reached XP level 3. HP: 28/30 MP: 3/3
  1180 | D:2      | Reached XP level 4. HP: 36/38 MP: 4/4
  1275 | D:2      | Found a sparkling altar of Nemelex Xobeh.
  1807 | D:3      | Became a worshipper of Beogh the Brigand
  1822 | D:3      | Reached skill level 4 in Dodging
  2206 | D:3      | Reached XP level 5. HP: 45/45 MP: 5/5
  2440 | D:3      | Reached skill level 1 in Maces & Flails
  2755 | D:3      | Noticed Jessica
  2767 | D:3      | Killed Jessica
  3016 | D:3      | Noticed a centaur
  3035 | D:3      | Killed a centaur
  3035 | D:3      | Reached XP level 6. HP: 10/53 MP: 6/6
  3936 | D:4      | Acquired Beogh's first power
  4064 | D:4      | Found a basalt altar of Yredelemnul.
  4105 | D:4      | Reached skill level 5 in Fighting
  4307 | D:4      | Reached skill level 5 in Dodging
  4398 | D:4      | Noticed Sigmund
  4416 | D:4      | Reached XP level 7. HP: 49/61 MP: 7/7
  4429 | D:4      | Killed Sigmund
  4778 | D:4      | Found a shadowy altar of Dithmenos.
  5182 | D:5      | Entered Level 5 of the Dungeon
  5668 | D:5      | Reached skill level 6 in Fighting
  6006 | D:5      | Got a slimy hand axe {antimagic}
  6007 | D:5      | Identified the +3,+8 hand axe of Yeast {antimagic, rElec rN+} (You took it off an orc on level 5 of the Dungeon)
  6028 | D:5      | Acquired Beogh's second power
  6469 | D:5      | Reached skill level 1 in Axes
  6586 | D:5      | Noticed Pikel
  6602 | D:5      | Killed Pikel
  6602 | D:5      | Reached skill level 7 in Fighting
  6602 | D:5      | Reached XP level 8. HP: 18/74 MP: 2/8
  6976 | D:6      | Reached skill level 8 in Fighting
  7378 | D:6      | Found a glowing drain.
  7385 | Sewer    | Entered a sewer
  7574 | Sewer    | Reached XP level 9. HP: 77/82 MP: 3/9
  7876 | D:6      | Reached skill level 5 in Axes
  8040 | D:6      | Acquired Beogh's third power
  8040 | D:6      | Reached skill level 9 in Fighting
  8283 | D:6      | Noticed celly00's ghost (experienced DsVM)
  8417 | D:6      | Killed celly00's ghost
  8774 | D:6      | Found a roughly hewn altar of Beogh.
  8857 | D:6      | Reached skill level 10 in Fighting
  9373 | D:7      | Found a shimmering altar of Xom.
  9464 | D:7      | Gained Morbeogh as an ally
  9560 | D:7      | Found a staircase to the Ecumenical Temple.
  9682 | D:7      | Acquired Beogh's fourth power
  9683 | D:7      | Reached XP level 10. HP: 87/94 MP: 3/10
  9763 | D:7      | Noticed Crazy Yiuf
  9770 | D:7      | Killed Crazy Yiuf
 10488 | D:8      | Noticed Blork the orc
 10496 | D:8      | Reached skill level 11 in Fighting
 10499 | D:8      | Killed Blork the orc
 10670 | D:8      | Gained Boderik as an ally
 10852 | D:8      | Got a fine ring mail
 10864 | D:8      | Identified the cursed +3 ring mail "Mecrouto" {+Fly} (You found it on level 8 of the Dungeon)
 10897 | D:8      | Found a deep blue altar of Sif Muna.
 10897 | D:8      | Found a shimmering altar of Xom.
 10991 | D:8      | Reached skill level 1 in Invocations
 11159 | D:8      | Reached skill level 1 in Armour
 11285 | D:9      | Paralysed by a giant eyeball for 3 turns
 11331 | D:9      | Found a burning altar of Makhleb.
 11472 | D:9      | Found a white marble altar of Elyvilon.
 11739 | D:9      | Found a bloodstained altar of Trog.
 11861 | D:9      | Found a staircase to the Lair.
 11879 | D:9      | Acquired Beogh's fifth power
 11879 | D:9      | Reached skill level 5 in Invocations
 11888 | D:9      | Gained Alork as an ally
 12126 | D:9      | Found a staircase to the Orcish Mines.
 12286 | Orc:1    | Entered Level 1 of the Orcish Mines
 12291 | Orc:1    | Gained Zorug as an ally
 12599 | Orc:1    | Found Ciagefot's General Store.
 12600 | Orc:1    | Found a roughly hewn altar of Beogh.
 12633 | Orc:1    | Bought a scroll of identify for 28 gold pieces
 12633 | Orc:1    | Bought a potion of heal wounds for 42 gold pieces
 12633 | Orc:1    | Bought a scroll of remove curse for 42 gold pieces
 12704 | Orc:1    | Found Fisk's Antique Weapon Boutique.
 12704 | Orc:1    | Gained Bogbarth as an ally
 12797 | Orc:1    | Found Skueb's Distillery.
 12815 | Orc:1    | Bought a potion of beneficial mutation for 595 gold pieces
 12816 | Orc:1    | Gained mutation: Your mind is acute. (Int +2) [potion of beneficial mutation]
 13189 | Orc:4    | Entered Level 4 of the Orcish Mines
 13191 | Orc:4    | Noticed an orc knight
 13192 | Orc:4    | Noticed an orc sorcerer
 13200 | Orc:4    | Gained Olfik as an ally
 13214 | Orc:4    | Noticed an ice devil
 13218 | Orc:4    | Killed an orc knight
 13223 | Orc:4    | HP: 2/95 [warg zombie[an orc knight] (6)]
 13228 | Orc:4    | an orc sorcerer (ally) was killed
 13564 | Orc:4    | Found a staircase to the Elven Halls.
 13605 | Orc:4    | Noticed an orc high priest
 13614 | Orc:4    | Noticed a soul eater
 13615 | Orc:4    | Killed an orc high priest
 13615 | Orc:4    | Reached XP level 11. HP: 85/102 MP: 7/22
 13726 | Orc:1    | Bought a potion of beneficial mutation for 595 gold pieces
 13727 | Orc:1    | Gained mutation: You can spit poison. [potion of beneficial mutation]
 13893 | Orc:2    | Found a roughly hewn altar of Beogh.
 13893 | Orc:2    | Noticed Josephine
 13901 | Orc:2    | Your ally Bogbarth died
 13901 | Orc:2    | Killed Josephine
 13909 | Orc:2    | Reached skill level 10 in Axes
 14296 | Orc:4    | Noticed an orc knight
 14305 | Orc:4    | Killed an orc knight
 14305 | Orc:4    | Gained Ognian as an ally
 14307 | Orc:4    | Gained Orgrim as an ally
 14481 | Orc:4    | Found a roughly hewn altar of Beogh.
 14482 | Orc:4    | Noticed an orc high priest
 14493 | Orc:4    | Killed an orc high priest
 14557 | Orc:4    | Noticed an orc high priest
 14564 | Orc:4    | Reached skill level 5 in Armour
 14565 | Orc:4    | Noticed an orc high priest
 14569 | Orc:4    | Killed an orc high priest
 14570 | Orc:4    | Killed an orc high priest
 14571 | Orc:4    | Found a roughly hewn altar of Beogh.
 14870 | Orc:4    | Found Udukyfac's Weapon Shop.
 14870 | Orc:4    | Noticed an orc high priest
 14870 | Orc:4    | Noticed an orc high priest
 14876 | Orc:4    | Killed an orc high priest
 14886 | Orc:4    | Killed an orc high priest
 14931 | Orc:4    | Found Siunoj's Armour Shoppe.
 14931 | Orc:4    | Noticed an orc high priest
 14938 | Orc:4    | Killed an orc high priest
 15226 | Orc:4    | Noticed an orc high priest
 15226 | Orc:4    | Found Brepam's Weapon Shoppe.
 15226 | Orc:4    | Found Heyg's Armour Shop.
 15226 | Orc:4    | Noticed an orc high priest
 15226 | Orc:4    | Noticed an orc high priest
 15229 | Orc:4    | Killed an orc high priest
 15231 | Orc:4    | Killed an orc high priest
 15235 | Orc:4    | Killed an orc high priest
 16192 | Orc:3    | Gained Bogward as an ally
 16412 | Orc:3    | Noticed Erica
 16420 | Orc:3    | Killed Erica
 16992 | D:9      | Upgraded the game from 0.15-a0-41-g38725a9 to 0.15-a0-55-g79b3258
 17019 | Lair:1   | Entered Level 1 of the Lair of Beasts
 17067 | Lair:1   | Learned a level 6 spell: Haste
 17464 | Lair:1   | Reached skill level 1 in Charms
 17586 | Lair:1   | Gained Boldo as an ally
 17680 | Lair:1   | Noticed an eight-headed hydra
 17689 | Lair:1   | Killed a ten-headed hydra
 18434 | Lair:2   | Learned a level 2 spell: Repel Missiles
 18437 | Lair:2   | Learned a level 2 spell: Blink
 18693 | Lair:2   | Reached XP level 12. HP: 110/110 MP: 23/23
 18859 | Lair:2   | Reached skill level 10 in Armour
 18976 | Lair:2   | Noticed an eight-headed hydra
 18984 | Lair:2   | Killed a nine-headed hydra
 19068 | Lair:2   | Noticed a five-headed hydra
 19085 | Lair:2   | Killed a five-headed hydra
 20380 | Lair:3   | Identified Deod's Grimoire of Protection
 20381 | Lair:3   | Identified a scroll of acquirement
 20505 | Lair:3   | Your ally Boldo died
 20570 | Lair:3   | Noticed a five-headed hydra
 20584 | Lair:3   | Killed a six-headed hydra
 20638 | Lair:3   | Reached skill level 5 in Charms
 21469 | Lair:3   | Noticed a four-headed hydra
 21476 | Lair:3   | Killed a four-headed hydra
 22735 | Lair:4   | Gained Learuk as an ally
 23123 | Lair:5   | Gained Bogwik as an ally
 23136 | Lair:5   | Reached XP level 13. HP: 109/116 MP: 8/25
 23519 | Lair:5   | Reached XP level 14. HP: 124/124 MP: 8/25
 23824 | Lair:5   | Found a staircase to the Shoals.
 23882 | Lair:5   | Found a hole to the Spider Nest.
 24299 | Lair:6   | Reached skill level 12 in Armour
 24387 | Lair:6   | Reached skill level 10 in Charms
 24438 | Lair:6   | Learned a level 1 spell: Animate Skeleton
 24440 | Lair:6   | Learned a level 1 spell: Apportation
 24451 | Lair:6   | Got a transparent ring mail
 24523 | Lair:6   | Identified the cursed +2 ring mail "Tupig" {Stlth++} (You found it on level 6 of the Lair of Beasts)
 24552 | Lair:6   | Reached skill level 1 in Translocations
 25997 | Lair:7   | Noticed Snorg
 26002 | Lair:7   | Killed Snorg
 26874 | Lair:8   | Entered Level 8 of the Lair of Beasts
 26971 | Lair:8   | Found a staircase to the Slime Pits.
 27059 | Lair:8   | Your ally Olfik died
 27623 | Lair:8   | Reached skill level 1 in Necromancy
 27740 | Lair:8   | Reached skill level 5 in Translocations
 28229 | D:10     | Entered Level 10 of the Dungeon
 28392 | D:10     | Found a portal to a secret trove of treasure.
 28535 | D:10     | Noticed Erolcha
 28543 | D:10     | Killed Erolcha
 28778 | D:10     | Found a blossoming altar of Fedhas.
 29002 | D:11     | Found a flagged portal.
 29012 | D:11     | Paralysed by a giant eyeball for 2 turns
 29017 | Bailey   | Entered a bailey
 29136 | Bailey   | Gained Morbeogh as an ally
 29161 | Bailey   | Got a twisted cutlass
 29485 | D:11     | Identified the cursed +0,+0 cutlass "Sut Uti" {freeze, +Fly rC+ MR++ SInv Stlth--} (You found it in a bailey)
 31127 | D:12     | Found a blossoming altar of Fedhas.
 31696 | D:13     | Found Ziniapih's Armour Emporium.
 31714 | D:13     | Reached XP level 15. HP: 107/129 MP: 8/26
 32507 | D:14     | Noticed Louise
 32519 | D:14     | Killed Louise
 32519 | D:14     | Reached skill level 13 in Armour
 32726 | D:14     | Bogwik the orc high priest (ally) was killed
 32726 | D:14     | Your ally Bogwik died
 32797 | D:14     | Found a basalt altar of Yredelemnul.
 33256 | D:14     | Found a gate to the Vaults.
 33819 | D:15     | Entered Level 15 of the Dungeon
 33854 | D:15     | Gained Brandogh as an ally
 33954 | D:15     | Reached skill level 14 in Armour
 34412 | D:15     | Found Skuhaffa's General Store.
 34428 | D:15     | Bought a +2 pair of gloves of strength for 387 gold pieces
 34734 | D:15     | Found a staircase to the Depths.
 35760 | Spider:1 | Entered Level 1 of the Spider Nest
 35778 | Spider:1 | Reached skill level 15 in Armour
 36197 | Orc:4    | Bought the +1 cloak of the Salamander {Dam+4} for 532 gold pieces
 36231 | Orc:4    | Bought the cursed +2,+2 mace "Pairi" {flame, -Tele +Inv rPois} for 486 gold pieces
 36660 | Spider:1 | Reached skill level 5 in Maces & Flails
 36728 | Spider:1 | Noticed Roxanne
 36763 | Spider:1 | Your ally Boderik died
 37054 | Spider:1 | Noticed Sonja
 37059 | Spider:1 | Killed Sonja
 37415 | Spider:1 | Killed Roxanne
 37415 | Spider:1 | Gained Arbolt as an ally
 37619 | Spider:2 | Gained Bogmar as an ally
 37704 | Spider:2 | Noticed Arachne
 37719 | Spider:2 | Killed Arachne
 37719 | Spider:2 | Reached skill level 10 in Maces & Flails
 38478 | Spider:3 | Your ally Brandogh died
 39139 | Spider:5 | Entered Level 5 of the Spider Nest
 39289 | Spider:5 | Reached XP level 16. HP: 137/137 MP: 27/27
 40049 | Spider:5 | Noticed Agnes
 40056 | Spider:5 | Your ally Orgrim died
 40065 | Spider:5 | Killed Agnes
 40076 | Spider:5 | Gained Bogward as an ally
 40142 | Spider:5 | Gained Arbeogh as an ally
 40154 | Spider:5 | Got a gossamer rune of Zot
 40593 | Spider:4 | Reached skill level 15 in Maces & Flails
 40999 | Spider:3 | Noticed Donald
 41016 | Spider:3 | Killed Donald
 41126 | Spider:3 | Your ally Bogmar died
 41132 | Spider:3 | Your ally Morbeogh died
 41722 | Spider:1 | Your ally Bogward died
 41907 | Shoals:1 | Entered Level 1 of the Shoals
 42077 | Shoals:1 | Reached skill level 1 in Polearms
 42494 | Shoals:1 | Noticed Rupert
 42512 | Shoals:1 | Killed Rupert
 42514 | Shoals:1 | Reached skill level 5 in Polearms
 42517 | Shoals:1 | Your ally Morbeogh died
 42785 | Shoals:1 | Found Ujur's Jewellery Boutique.
 44881 | Shoals:2 | Gained Judas as an ally
 45070 | Shoals:3 | Reached XP level 17. HP: 120/148 MP: 28/28
 45433 | Shoals:4 | Your ally Zorug died
 45433 | Shoals:4 | Your ally Judas died
 45630 | Shoals:4 | Your ally Bogward died
 45638 | Shoals:4 | Your ally Alork died
 45681 | Shoals:4 | Reached skill level 10 in Polearms
 45899 | Shoals:5 | Entered Level 5 of the Shoals
 45905 | Shoals:5 | Your ally Ognian died
 45990 | Shoals:5 | Noticed Ilsuiw
 46372 | Shoals:5 | Your ally Arbolt died
 46382 | Shoals:5 | Your ally Arbeogh died
 46760 | Shoals:5 | Gained Bogwik as an ally
 47040 | Shoals:5 | Killed Ilsuiw
 47164 | Shoals:5 | Got a barnacled rune of Zot
 47264 | Shoals:5 | Reached skill level 10 in Dodging
 47276 | Shoals:5 | Gained Worak as an ally
 47438 | Shoals:5 | Got a dazzling lajatang
 47442 | Shoals:5 | Identified the +10,+3 lajatang "Giantbane" {drain, rC+ rN+} (You found it on level 5 of the Shoals)
 47622 | Shoals:5 | Your ally Bogwik died
 48213 | Shoals:1 | Upgraded the game from 0.15-a0-55-g79b3258 to 0.15-a0-60-g2d7d1c5
 49558 | Vaults:1 | Entered Level 1 of the Vaults
 49563 | Vaults:1 | Found Shryryukh's Weapon Emporium.
 49687 | Vaults:1 | Gained Grimold as an ally
 49687 | Vaults:1 | Gained Ogrik as an ally
 49692 | Vaults:1 | Gained Morbeogh as an ally
 50654 | Vaults:2 | Found a staircase to the Crypt.
 50981 | Vaults:2 | Gained Bogric as an ally
 51915 | Vaults:2 | Reached XP level 18. HP: 160/160 MP: 29/29
 52101 | Vaults:3 | Found a staircase to the Hall of Blades.
 52153 | Blade    | Entered the Hall of Blades
 52153 | Blade    | Noticed Frederick
 52167 | Blade    | Your ally Worak died
 52168 | Blade    | Your ally Bogric died
 52173 | Blade    | Killed Frederick
 52173 | Blade    | Gained Rocco as an ally
 52180 | Blade    | Your ally Grimold died
 52214 | Blade    | Noticed Xtahua
 52221 | Blade    | Killed Xtahua
 52691 | Vaults:3 | Noticed Asterion
 52713 | Vaults:3 | Your ally Ogrik died
 52723 | Vaults:3 | Killed Asterion
 53529 | Vaults:3 | Reached skill level 15 in Polearms
 53657 | Vaults:3 | Reached skill level 1 in Air Magic
 53762 | Vaults:3 | Noticed Margery
 53777 | Vaults:3 | Killed Margery
 53789 | Vaults:3 | Your ally Learuk died
 53795 | Vaults:3 | Your ally Morbeogh died
 54327 | Vaults:3 | Reached skill level 15 in Fighting
 54827 | Vaults:3 | Gained Wardok as an ally
 55333 | Vaults:4 | Your ally Wardok died
 55822 | Vaults:4 | Shot with an arrow by something


Action                   |  1- 3 |  4- 6 |  7- 9 | 10-12 | 13-15 | 16-18 || total
-------------------------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------++-------
Melee: Quarterstaff      |    80 |    69 |       |       |       |       ||   149
       Whip              |       |   184 |   222 |    88 |    24 |       ||   518
       Hand axe          |       |       |   334 |   556 |  1022 |    45 ||  1957
       Cutlass           |       |       |       |       |     4 |       ||     4
       Mace              |       |       |       |       |   204 |   407 ||   611
       Demon trident     |       |       |       |       |       |  1126 ||  1126
       Eveningstar       |       |       |       |       |       |    56 ||    56
 Fire: Sling             |    63 |     3 |       |     4 |       |       ||    70
Throw: Throwing net      |     4 |       |     1 |     3 |     6 |     4 ||    18
       Tomahawk          |       |       |       |   239 |    19 |       ||   258
       Dart              |       |       |       |       |    46 |    26 ||    72
       Javelin           |       |       |       |       |       |     2 ||     2
 Cast: Repel Missiles    |       |       |       |     1 |     2 |    11 ||    14
       Animate Skeleton  |       |       |       |       |    74 |   113 ||   187
       Blink             |       |       |       |       |       |     3 ||     3
Invok: Convert to Beogh  |       |     1 |       |       |       |       ||     1
       Recall Orcish Fol |       |       |       |     7 |    13 |    28 ||    48
       Stop Recall       |       |       |       |     7 |    13 |    13 ||    33
       Smiting           |       |       |       |     1 |       |     2 ||     3
Evoke: Wand              |       |       |       |     7 |    17 |    14 ||    38
       Deck              |       |       |       |       |     3 |       ||     3
       Disc of storms    |       |       |       |       |       |     1 ||     1
  Use: Scroll            |       |    15 |    12 |     8 |    24 |    26 ||    85
       Potion            |       |       |     1 |     4 |     8 |    13 ||    26
 Stab: Distracted        |       |       |     1 |    10 |    26 |    30 ||    67
       Held in net/web   |       |       |       |       |     1 |       ||     1
       Paralysed         |       |       |       |       |       |     4 ||     4



[basil]

Wardens, preservers, and convokers aren't "op," if they're what you are referring to.

I'm not quite sure what happened there, but if it went down like I suspect it did, I would have either tried to break line of sight with the convoker (closing doors is very good at this) to minimize the amount of time it has to convoke, with the goal of killing the convoker before it can actually summon friends; or, failing that, teleport while you are able to and before you lose a lot of HP, which makes random teleports substantially more dangerous. Or don't teleport and buff up for a tough fight: haste potion, might potion, agility potion are very good for these things, and you had none of that active.

Oh, one other thing: you had scroll of fear. That is very effective on convokers and wardens and likely whatever shot you. It even interrupts a convoker's chant, as does curare.

[WalkerBoh]

If you take away the right lessons from your deaths and then actually implement what you learned, there are not really that many different mistakes you can make before you're able to win. I suspect you are failing to properly use the advice you've been given...

[Hopeless]

If you take away the right lessons from your deaths and then actually implement what you learned, there are not really that many different mistakes you can make before you're able to win. I suspect you are failing to properly use the advice you've been given...

I think this goes without saying.

[Kaeoschassis]

Hopeless, look. Crawl - and games like it - are not for everyone. People enjoy different kinds of things, people look for different things in their entertainment, and that's fine. It really is. But if you aren't getting enjoyment out of this - if it's just frustrating and upsetting you - well, it's a game.
It's not worth it. Walk away for awhile. Play something that makes you happy, something you get enjoyment out of. Mayhap after awhile you'll come back with a fresh perspective and be able to get some fun out of crawl, and that'll be fine too. Either way, please don't let it get to you, it's just not worth it.

[KoboldLord]

One thing I appreciate about the devteam's recent work that a relative beginner in your position might not is that in the last few versions a lot of work has been done to even out the threat level of the game. Back when I started, if you heard the assertion that anybody who can get to Lair is probably only two or three characters from their first ascension, it was probably literally true. There were very few uniques and monsters at that point that were genuinely interesting and distinct from threats that had already been introduced, so if you had a character that could handle death yaks and centaur packs you really only ever had to contend with monsters that had slightly higher numbers than the ones you saw before. Now, however, the mid-game branches are developing their own character that need to be learned and handled somewhat different than other branches that are accessible at the same time, and while those challenges aren't necessarily harder they aren't necessarily straightforward extensions of what you already know from the early game.

It might not be obvious to you from your perspective on the inside, but you probably are getting better. You are probably recognizing dangerous situations earlier and dealing with them a bit more skittishly. You may or may not have any big breakthroughs left, but the game is winnable and you can see the ending from where you stand.

[Firion]

Something stuck out to me in the chardump you posted.

Level 12.0(10.6) Axes
- Level 15.0(13.5) Maces & Flails
* Level 15.7(14.1) Polearms
Level 3.1(1.9) Staves

It's generally not a good idea to train two weapon schools. It is a terrible idea to train four weapon schools.

[Hopeless]

Something stuck out to me in the chardump you posted.

Level 12.0(10.6) Axes
- Level 15.0(13.5) Maces & Flails
* Level 15.7(14.1) Polearms
Level 3.1(1.9) Staves

It's generally not a good idea to train two weapon schools. It is a terrible idea to train four weapon schools.

Generally lots of things are terrible that become practical. In this case, having been stuck with lousy weapons for the early game I switched to crosstrained weapons when good ones became available. I agree that it isn't a great idea if you plan to win and want to maximize your experience but as you can see it didn't matter.

[Sar]

You know, while I do think those skills are bad, your character probably did die because of tactical errors. Still, if all that XP spent on superficial weapon skills was put in, say, Fighting, that character might have survived despite those errors.

[Quazifuji]

It might not be obvious to you from your perspective on the inside, but you probably are getting better. You are probably recognizing dangerous situations earlier and dealing with them a bit more skittishly. You may or may not have any big breakthroughs left, but the game is winnable and you can see the ending from where you stand.

I think this is a big thing. You can get better without feeling like you're getting better. My first win was a GrFi of Nemelex who found a +11 vampiric demon trident in lair and basically tabbed through the entire game with it. It felt like it was pure luck, I just had gear that let me tab through situations no character should survive in. I splatted a bunch of characters before the end of the lair after that, figured that confirmed it was just luck, and took a break for a while.

A couple months later, I came back to the game. Splatted a few more characters early on, a few more promising characters, and then had a character who got a 15 rune win. That one still had some great gear finds, so I was proud but not fully convinced. Then, not too many tries later, another win, with 6 runes. Now I've got another character who has two runes and has cleared depths, ready to grab a 3rd rune and take on Zot. So clearly, I'm better than I think. I kept feeling like all my good runs were due to luck or easy combos, and to some extent those things helped, but I wouldn't have 3 wins and a potential fourth coming up if I wasn't getting better at this game.

So you may still feel like you're not improving, like you've plateaued and every death is just a completely uneducational death to something OP, but I guarantee that's not true. You are getting better. You can't get multiple characters to vaults without being pretty good at this game. And you're probably improving in subtle ways you're not even realizing.

Granted, if you're finding the game more frustrating than fun right now, it might be worth taking a break. Play some games you enjoy more and come back to it with a clear mind. Losing a promising character can be immensely frustrating. But if you want to keep playing, you have to stop telling yourself that you've plateaued and stop declaring everything that kills you OP. That's just making excuses. I'm not saying this to criticize you, it's just that your attitude is clearly leading to a lot of demoralization. If you want to make it through, you've got to keep the right attitude. You have to treat every death as a chance to learn from your mistakes and try another character, rather than as a failure. It's hard, but I think it's the only way to enjoy this game. I once lost a promising character because I accidentally hit Ctrl-Q instead of Ctrl-S (yes, I actually typed out "yes" and hit enter before realizing my mistake). The next day, I started several similar characters, determined to recreate the character I had enjoyed and killed off so stupidly. One of them ended up being my 15 rune win. You can bounce back from your YASDs.

[crate]

Something stuck out to me in the chardump you posted.

Level 12.0(10.6) Axes
- Level 15.0(13.5) Maces & Flails
* Level 15.7(14.1) Polearms
Level 3.1(1.9) Staves

It's generally not a good idea to train two weapon schools. It is a terrible idea to train four weapon schools.

Here's what I recommend, in general, with weapons (and this is something I generally follow myself):
Once you choose a weapon type (at game start for things like fi/be/gl, when you start training one for book backgrounds), don't ever pick up or identify weapons that are not that weapon type. This will entirely prevent situations like you training both axes and maces despite a battleaxe/great mace existing in your game (note that these weapons exist in effectively 100% of all games by the end of orc, and often even exist before lair) and thus wasting lots of xp.

My strategic advice in general is just aimed at preventing the big mistakes I see a lot of players make (training multiple weapon types, training both armour and dodging in a bad manner, etc.). If you just avoid making the really-easy-to-avoid big mistakes with your skill training, then you will do fine and are free to focus on the important parts of the game (the manner in which you engage and deal with enemies).

A ton of players dramatically overvalue equipment in crawl, imo. A weapon is a weapon is a weapon, for the most part, and the differences between weapons are more akin to "it's a bit sharper" instead of "it's a sword instead of a butter knife". Same with armour.

[Hopeless]

To be clear. I am moving on for now. (Which is why I said "for posterity" on that dump in the last post. Not to invite more criticism.)

I have MTGO, Shadowrun Returns (dragonfall), FTL, and a number of other games that I have been neglecting to play this. Given a bit of perspective I may spend more time playing Crawl but right now it just seems like good "money (time)" spent after bad. That doesn't reflect on the game itself but on my own personality. It is obvious that the game's random element + my own ability to suddenly lose a grasp on the screen situation have lead to my frustrations.

Just so you understand, I don't think anything in the game is OP except where the synergy makes things hard or impossible to stop once they start. DOTS (damage over time effects) are a good example of how this can get way out of hand. For the person who is always logical and always methodical this ceases to be a problem but for the rest of us who may be inconsistent at our finest, it is a huge stumbling block. Yes I have gotten through pretty much everything in the game except Hell, Pan, Zot, the Abyss and thus have shown I can play lucidly but I seem to be unable to detect when I am going off the rails.

That particular game I felt like the whole weapons selection thing was a big hose (though I was bonused with armor parts, especially with gloves, hat and cloak and then eventually an ida). FYI for those decrying the skill exp spent on various weapons I have seen a number of people doing the same. I don't think it is good play but it somewhat makes sense if you DO find something that is badass that you lose a little exp to make it viable. AND that is the advice I have seen and recieved from a number of players whilst playing webtiles. (Which is the main reason I chose to play on the Webtiles, and yet many games I spent most of of the game unobserved and unadvised.)

A special shout out to Notcluei who despite having some rather oddball comments helped me through my hair raising encounter with TLH in a prior game. As I said before... he smashes through trees! Who knew? (Not me...) Also thanks to the others who stopped by for a bit to either ask "why are you using such a bad weapon??" or throw other tidbits my way. I'd be fine with this thread being locked if that is doable without inconveniencing anyone.

[crate]

A special shout out to Notcluei

oh dear

[KoboldLord]

That particular game I felt like the whole weapons selection thing was a big hose (though I was bonused with armor parts, especially with gloves, hat and cloak and then eventually an ida). FYI for those decrying the skill exp spent on various weapons I have seen a number of people doing the same. I don't think it is good play but it somewhat makes sense if you DO find something that is badass that you lose a little exp to make it viable. AND that is the advice I have seen and recieved from a number of players whilst playing webtiles. (Which is the main reason I chose to play on the Webtiles, and yet many games I spent most of of the game unobserved and unadvised.)

I would trust crate much more readily than I would trust anyone and everyone on webtiles. You may be mid-judging the benefit of incremental upgrades to your equipment. A reasonably-enchanted battleaxe in the hands of a melee-focused character will kill most things in Vaults and Depths in around three or four solid hits. Very occasionally more or less. A similarly-enchanted executioner's axe will kill things in three hits somewhat more often, but many times the extra damage just goes to waste because it doesn't matter if you reduce that deep troll to 0hp or -20hp. The precise value of your damage output is therefore much less important than making sure you don't have any deep troll shamans dumping Might or Haste effects onto the deep troll you're trying to kill, or similar complicating factors. This is unlike many other games where monsters have tens of thousands of hit points and you have to chip them down, which leads to every bit of extra damage being important over the course of the fight as a whole.

[Turukano]

@ Hopeless:

Please keep in mind that developing your skills is one of the most important points in crawl. You have been told by experienced players that it's better to focus on one weapon skill, and I'll give an example.

You want to participate in a motor race. Your only opponent has car X with maximum speed 80 mph. You have three cars, A, B and C. Your mechanics can do a lot of work before the start. What will you tell them to do?

a) Pushing car A, B and C to 70 mph maximum speed
b) Pushing car A to 90 mph maximum speed

What do you think, in which case will you usually win the race?

[Hopeless]

Please lock this thread.

[Hirsch I]

if you want a thread locked, please push the "report" button, or PM a mod.
but locking a thread is not very useful, as many people might still benefit from it.

[Hopeless]

if you want a thread locked, please push the "report" button, or PM a mod.
but locking a thread is not very useful, as many people might still benefit from it.

I think people will benefit from it (or not) regardless of what is posted hence forth. And it is irritating to have people jump on the bandwagon late (having likely not even read through the whole thread) and start adding things that don't help.

[Hirsch I]

well, then, if you think so, just report it.
you can also just stop visiting the thread, and let it go the natural way to oblivion, when nobody else thinks it is useful.
that being said, there is lots of good advice in there.

[Kaeoschassis]

There's some truly excellent advice in here. It's exactly the sort of advice that has made a huge difference to my crawling progress recently. I think, as politely as I can manage, there is a big difference between 'advice that doesn't help' and 'advice that isn't being heeded'.
As a fellow rookie striving through that mid-game wall, I definitely think this thread - and all the others like it - is very useful.

[Grimm]

Locked at request of OP.