Short blades/weapon damage

[Amnesiac]

I though it would be nice to have a thread for small questions like the following.

Are there whips of distortion(excluding lugonu followers?). And I'm not sure I've seen blades of distortion besides daggers and short blades.

The second question is - can I stab well with a claymore or I'll still often get bad rolls multiplyed. And how often.

[Siegurt]

Distortion can be generated on a whip, it's not very likely though, there are some base types with more or less likelihoods of different brands (And not all brands can generate on all weapons)

You can stab with a claymore. Longswords (and spears and tridents) get a an extra percentage added to their stabbing, you have just as much chance of rolling badly with a claymore stab as you do with any other claymore attack (Short blades are the only thing that gets damage directly added, all other weapons only get a multiplier on whatever damage would be done)

Specifically stabbing goes "If it's a shortblade, add some to the damage done" then "If it's a shortblade, longblade, or spear, trident, or felid claws, multiply the damage done by a percent" then "Multiply the damage done by another percent"

It's also notable that stabs bypass AC.

[duvessa]

Almost every base type has a 4% chance to get distortion, however this can be overwritten by another brand. A normally generated whip has a 1.75% chance to be distortion.

[Amnesiac]

I don't use whips that often, but still, I get hit be them and still, I don't think I've seen any whips of distortion in thousands of games...

About stabbing with a long blade. So is it possible to roll like 1 base damage or is it somehow biased towards the average damage?

[SublimeSnake]

Here's one: I know vorpal damage is multiplicative, but does it take into affect dam enchantments on the weapon and/or slaying bonuses, or is it just the weapons base damage?

[Siegurt]

I don't use whips that often, but still, I get hit be them and still, I don't think I've seen any whips of distortion in thousands of games...

About stabbing with a long blade. So is it possible to roll like 1 base damage or is it somehow biased towards the average damage?

It's possible to roll 1 (although not 0) as your base damage, no bias. (Although base damage and slaying damage are rolled separately, which does reduce the odds that you'll actually end up at 1.)

[Amnesiac]

Here's one: I know vorpal damage is multiplicative, but does it take into affect dam enchantments on the weapon and/or slaying bonuses, or is it just the weapons base damage?

It multiplies all the damage of your hit, but still gets reduced by target's AC, unlike flaming/freezing.

[Siegurt]

Here's one: I know vorpal damage is multiplicative, but does it take into affect dam enchantments on the weapon and/or slaying bonuses, or is it just the weapons base damage?

It multiplies the net result (After bonuses and AC), so it includes any rolled slaying and damage bonuses, and, for that matter bonus stabbing damage.

[Siegurt]

Here's one: I know vorpal damage is multiplicative, but does it take into affect dam enchantments on the weapon and/or slaying bonuses, or is it just the weapons base damage?

It multiplies all the damage of your hit, but still gets reduced by target's AC, unlike flaming/freezing.

That's incorrect, Flaming/Freezing also multiply the result of damage done (that is to say, after AC has been applied) All damage brands are applied "at the end" (In a single function call) so after your final damage is calculated. All damage done by multiplicative brands is effected by AC (Because what it's multiplying is effected by AC) only additive brands ignore AC (They just roll a set amount, regardless of what AC did to your damage)

Vorpal doesn't get AC subtracted again.

[Amnesiac]

I remember bots saying that freezing and flaming damage is not reduced by AC. Probably just some misleading info, though, now that I think about it.

[Siegurt]

I remember bots saying that freezing and flaming damage is not reduced by AC.

They don't say that currently.

In case you're extra curious, here's what the relevant bits from the code that handles a hit is:

  Code:

bool melee_attack::handle_phase_hit()
{
    did_hit = true;
    perceived_attack = true;
    bool hit_woke_orc = false;

    if (attacker->is_player())
    {
.....
    damage_done = calc_damage();
.....
    // Check for weapon brand & inflict that damage too
    apply_damage_brand();


Here's how calc_damage figures out how much damage is done, you'll note AC is applied here:

  Code:

int melee_attack::calc_damage()
{
    // Constriction deals damage over time, not when grabbing.
    if (attk_flavour == AF_CRUSH)
        return 0;

    if (attacker->is_monster())
    {
....
    }
    else
    {
        int potential_damage;

        potential_damage =
            !weapon ? calc_base_unarmed_damage()
                    : calc_base_weapon_damage();

        potential_damage = player_stat_modify_damage(potential_damage);

        damage_done =
            potential_damage > 0 ? one_chance_in(3) + random2(potential_damage) : 0;

        damage_done = player_apply_weapon_skill(damage_done);
        damage_done = player_apply_fighting_skill(damage_done, false);
        damage_done = player_apply_misc_modifiers(damage_done);
        damage_done = player_apply_slaying_bonuses(damage_done, false);
        damage_done = player_apply_weapon_bonuses(damage_done);
        damage_done = player_apply_final_multipliers(damage_done);

        damage_done = player_stab(damage_done);
        damage_done = apply_defender_ac(damage_done);

        set_attack_verb();
        damage_done = max(0, damage_done);

        return damage_done;
    }


And here's where apply_damage_brand adds the brand damage, note it's working with the damage_done after AC has been applied:

  Code:

bool melee_attack::apply_damage_brand()
{
    bool brand_was_known = false;
    int brand = 0;
    bool ret = false;

    if (weapon)
    {
        if (is_artefact(*weapon))
            brand_was_known = artefact_known_wpn_property(*weapon, ARTP_BRAND);
        else
            brand_was_known = item_type_known(*weapon);
    }

    special_damage = 0;
    obvious_effect = false;
    brand = damage_brand == SPWPN_CHAOS ? random_chaos_brand() : damage_brand;

    if (brand != SPWPN_FLAMING && brand != SPWPN_FREEZING
        && brand != SPWPN_ELECTROCUTION && brand != SPWPN_VAMPIRICISM
        && !defender->alive())
    {
        // Most brands have no extra effects on just killed enemies, and the
        // effect would be often inappropriate.
        return false;
    }

    if (!damage_done
        && (brand == SPWPN_FLAMING || brand == SPWPN_FREEZING
            || brand == SPWPN_HOLY_WRATH || brand == SPWPN_DRAGON_SLAYING
            || brand == SPWPN_VORPAL || brand == SPWPN_VAMPIRICISM
            || brand == SPWPN_ANTIMAGIC))
    {
        // These brands require some regular damage to function.
        return false;
    }

    switch (brand)
    {
    case SPWPN_FLAMING:
        calc_elemental_brand_damage(BEAM_FIRE, defender->res_fire(),
                                    defender->is_icy() ? "melt" : "burn");
        defender->expose_to_element(BEAM_FIRE);
        noise_factor += 400 / max(1, damage_done);
        break;

    case SPWPN_FREEZING:
        calc_elemental_brand_damage(BEAM_COLD, defender->res_cold(), "freeze");
        defender->expose_to_element(BEAM_COLD, 2, false);
        break;

    case SPWPN_HOLY_WRATH:
        if (defender->undead_or_demonic())
            special_damage = 1 + (random2(damage_done * 15) / 10);

        if (special_damage && defender_visible)
        {
            special_damage_message =
                make_stringf(
                    "%s %s%s",
                    def_name(DESC_THE).c_str(),
                    defender->conj_verb("convulse").c_str(),
                    special_attack_punctuation().c_str());
        }
        break;

    case SPWPN_ELECTROCUTION:
        noise_factor += 800 / max(1, damage_done);
        if (defender->res_elec() > 0)
            break;
        else if (one_chance_in(3))
        {
            special_damage_message =
                defender->is_player()?
                   "You are electrocuted!"
                :  "There is a sudden explosion of sparks!";
            special_damage = 10 + random2(15);
            special_damage_flavour = BEAM_ELECTRICITY;
        }

        break;

    case SPWPN_DRAGON_SLAYING:
        if (is_dragonkind(defender))
        {
            special_damage = 1 + random2(3*damage_done/2);
            if (defender_visible)
            {
                special_damage_message =
                    make_stringf(
                        "%s %s%s",
                        defender->name(DESC_THE).c_str(),
                        defender->conj_verb("convulse").c_str(),
                        special_attack_punctuation().c_str());
            }
        }
        break;

    case SPWPN_VENOM:
        if (!one_chance_in(4))
        {
            int old_poison;

            if (defender->is_player())
                old_poison = you.duration[DUR_POISONING];
            else
            {
                old_poison =
                    (defender->as_monster()->get_ench(ENCH_POISON)).degree;
            }

            // Weapons of venom do two levels of poisoning to the player,
            // but only one level to monsters.
            defender->poison(attacker, 2);

            if (defender->is_player()
                   && old_poison < you.duration[DUR_POISONING]
                || !defender->is_player()
                   && old_poison <
                      (defender->as_monster()->get_ench(ENCH_POISON)).degree)
            {
                obvious_effect = true;
            }

        }
        break;

    case SPWPN_DRAINING:
        drain_defender();
        break;

    case SPWPN_VORPAL:
        special_damage = 1 + random2(damage_done) / 3;
        // Note: Leaving special_damage_message empty because there isn't one.
        break;

    case SPWPN_VAMPIRICISM:
    {
        if (x_chance_in_y(defender->res_negative_energy(), 3))
            break;

        if (!weapon || defender->holiness() != MH_NATURAL || damage_done < 1
            || attacker->stat_hp() == attacker->stat_maxhp()
            || !defender->is_player()
               && defender->as_monster()->is_summoned()
            || attacker->is_player() && you.duration[DUR_DEATHS_DOOR]
            || !attacker->is_player()
               && attacker->as_monster()->has_ench(ENCH_DEATHS_DOOR)
            || (x_chance_in_y(2, 5) && !(weapon->special == UNRAND_LEECH)))
        {
            break;
        }

        obvious_effect = true;

        // Handle weapon effects.
        // We only get here if we've done base damage, so no
        // worries on that score.
        if (attacker->is_player())
            mpr("You feel better.");
        else if (attacker_visible)
        {
            if (defender->is_player())
            {
                mprf("%s draws strength from your injuries!",
                     attacker->name(DESC_THE).c_str());
            }
            else
            {
                mprf("%s is healed.",
                     attacker->name(DESC_THE).c_str());
            }
        }

        int hp_boost = weapon->special == UNRAND_VAMPIRES_TOOTH
                     ? damage_done : 1 + random2(damage_done);

        dprf(DIAG_COMBAT, "Vampiric Healing: damage %d, healed %d",
             damage_done, hp_boost);
        attacker->heal(hp_boost);

        attacker->god_conduct(DID_NECROMANCY, 2);
        break;
    }
    case SPWPN_PAIN:
        pain_affects_defender();
        break;

    case SPWPN_DISTORTION:
        ret = distortion_affects_defender();
        break;

    case SPWPN_CONFUSE:
    {
        // This was originally for confusing touch and it doesn't really
        // work on the player, but a monster with a chaos weapon will
        // occasionally come up with this brand. -cao
        if (defender->is_player())
            break;

        const int hdcheck =
            (defender->holiness() == MH_NATURAL ? random2(30) : random2(22));

        if (mons_class_is_confusable(defender->type)
            && hdcheck >= defender->get_experience_level()
            && !one_chance_in(5)
            && !defender->as_monster()->check_clarity(false))
        {
            // Declaring these just to pass to the enchant function.
            bolt beam_temp;
            beam_temp.thrower =
                attacker->is_player() ? KILL_YOU : KILL_MON;
            beam_temp.flavour = BEAM_CONFUSION;
            beam_temp.beam_source = attacker->mindex();
            beam_temp.apply_enchantment_to_monster(defender->as_monster());
            obvious_effect = beam_temp.obvious_effect;
        }

        if (attacker->is_player() && damage_brand == SPWPN_CONFUSE
            && you.duration[DUR_CONFUSING_TOUCH])
        {
            you.duration[DUR_CONFUSING_TOUCH] -= roll_dice(3, 5)
                                                 * BASELINE_DELAY;

            if (you.duration[DUR_CONFUSING_TOUCH] < 1)
                you.duration[DUR_CONFUSING_TOUCH] = 1;
            obvious_effect = false;
        }
        break;
    }

    case SPWPN_CHAOS:
        chaos_affects_defender();
        break;

    case SPWPN_ANTIMAGIC:
        antimagic_affects_defender(damage_done);
        break;
    }

    if (damage_brand == SPWPN_CHAOS && brand != SPWPN_CHAOS && !ret
        && miscast_level == -1 && one_chance_in(20))
    {
        miscast_level  = 0;
        miscast_type   = SPTYP_RANDOM;
        miscast_target = coinflip() ? attacker : defender;
    }

    if (attacker->is_player() && damage_brand == SPWPN_CHAOS)
    {
        // If your god objects to using chaos, then it makes the
        // brand obvious.
        if (did_god_conduct(DID_CHAOS, 2 + random2(3), brand_was_known))
            obvious_effect = true;
    }
    if (!obvious_effect)
        obvious_effect = !special_damage_message.empty();

    if (needs_message && !special_damage_message.empty())
    {
        mprf("%s", special_damage_message.c_str());

        special_damage_message.clear();
        // Don't do message-only miscasts along with a special
        // damage message.
        if (miscast_level == 0)
            miscast_level = -1;
    }

    if (special_damage > 0)
        inflict_damage(special_damage, special_damage_flavour);

    if (obvious_effect && attacker_visible && weapon != NULL)
    {
        if (is_artefact(*weapon))
            artefact_wpn_learn_prop(*weapon, ARTP_BRAND);
        else
            set_ident_flags(*weapon, ISFLAG_KNOW_TYPE);
    }

    return ret;
}


[Amnesiac]

Ok, then to sum it up, SublimeSnake, multiplicative brands multiply the final damage done, it seems.

This is pretty cool for stabbing, btw, especially with holy wrath against dead/demonic stuff.

[SublimeSnake]

Thanks Siegurt for all the info. So basically this just explains why for weapons bigger is better and use flame/freezing unless the enemy is resistant to it.

[daggaz]

Why aren't Pan gates guaranteed to load in the lower dungeon (on latest stable version or previous)? Super annoying to have to scum around in abyss to find one.

[XuaXua]

I though it would be nice to have a thread for small questions.

So did I once, but it got closed for being too unwieldy.

[Amnesiac]

Uh, can you find one in Abyss?.. I don't think I've seen any

[daggaz]

I seem to remember finding them there before, and I sure hope I am not mistaken in my recollection! So far Ive done every single branch except slime and hells and not found one. I dont feel like doing slime as the majority of my slots are not artifacts for once, but I may have to..

[Amnesiac]

I think you are... Because I don't remember finding any there in past few years. And I think there should be gates in lower dungeon. On like 20-27 levels. Check all the stairs.

[daggaz]

Oh. One more quick question. How much extra damage will I get from boosting my short blades skill from 14 to 20? How about to 27? Ive got a QB of stabbing +8+7 (which is REMARKABLY resistant to enchantment scrolls ), and not that it matters but Ive got another +20 in slaying bonuses. My KoAs has 12 str and 22 dex if that fits in somewhere.

As for the gate. Well that stinks. There are definitely zero in the main dungeon, this is not the first time by any means this has happened, either.

[Magipi]

Henzell says...
Pan entries have a 25% chance of generating on each of D:21-27, and one is guaranteed on D:24.

[Amnesiac]

(Check out my edited post). Yeah some sections of levels may be separate, so you might need to use different stairs

[daggaz]

B-but... I always use every staircase! =(

Will go back and triple check D:24 then. EDIT: There it was, then, squeezed between two zot traps on D:24. Why didnt it show up on the speed walk menu then? The tile was uncovered..

[Amnesiac]

might as well use magic mapping And sorry for a stupid question, but did you check ctrl+o/ctrl+f?

B-but... I always use every staircase! =(

me too... I wish the day comes when I don't need to and stairs link to each other, after you see both ends. But then you'll still need to check them to be sure there are no unexplored sections.

[daggaz]

me too... I wish the day comes when I don't need to and stairs link to each other, after you see both ends.

Why isnt that a thing already? Damn. Hmm, never occured to me to ctrl-f a portal. Nice. As for ctrl-o.... :facepalm:

[Sar]

stairs link to each other, after you see both ends

...but they do?

[daggaz]

He means for purposes of autotravel. Currently you have to use the stairs in order to include it in the pathfinding routine. Its super fun!

[Sar]

Oh, that is correct, yeah.

[Magipi]

Hmm, never occured to me to ctrl-f a portal. Nice. As for ctrl-o.... :facepalm:

Other options you missed: checking the bots, checking the wiki, asking on the forum. Wandering around instead in the Abyss is awesome, the story of the month

[daggaz]

I checked the wiki of course, given its reputation as extremely accurate, factual, and utterly infallible on all things crawl. Then I figured it was wrong. The abyss was also a bit of a shopping trip, needed some more artifacts and might as well round out my spellcasting while I am at it... hmm running low on triple chocoloate chunky chip road icecream, too.

[Amnesiac]

Why isnt that a thing already?

think it's worth a proposal thread?

[Lasty]

Oh. One more quick question. How much extra damage will I get from boosting my short blades skill from 14 to 20? How about to 27? Ive got a QB of stabbing +8+7 (which is REMARKABLY resistant to enchantment scrolls ), and not that it matters but Ive got another +20 in slaying bonuses. My KoAs has 12 str and 22 dex if that fits in somewhere.

I haven't done the math, but your damage gain will be very, very small relative to your current damage level. You'll gain something like 2% of the QB's 5 base damage per level, IIRC. Your current slaying bonuses are so large that this increase will be unnoticeable.

[Tedronai]

Oh. One more quick question. How much extra damage will I get from boosting my short blades skill from 14 to 20? How about to 27? Ive got a QB of stabbing +8+7 (which is REMARKABLY resistant to enchantment scrolls ), and not that it matters but Ive got another +20 in slaying bonuses. My KoAs has 12 str and 22 dex if that fits in somewhere.

  Code:

Attack: Kobold Assassin vs. ettin (4000 rounds) (2014/02/12/17:23:35)
Kobold Assassin: XL 22   Str 12   Int 9   Dex 22
Wielding: +8,+7 quick blade of stabbing, Skill: Short Blades
ettin: HD 12   AC 9   EV 4

Short Blad | AvHitDam | MaxDam | Accuracy | AvDam | AvTime | AvSpeed | AvEffDam
         0 |      3.5 |     18 |      88% |   3.1 |    70  |  1.43 |      4.4
         1 |      3.6 |     18 |      88% |   3.2 |    65  |  1.54 |      4.9
         2 |      3.6 |     18 |      89% |   3.2 |    60  |  1.67 |      5.3
         3 |      3.4 |     18 |      89% |   3.1 |    55  |  1.82 |      5.6
         4 |      3.6 |     17 |      88% |   3.2 |    50  |  2.00 |      6.4
         5 |      3.5 |     18 |      89% |   3.1 |    45  |  2.22 |      6.9
         6 |      3.6 |     20 |      90% |   3.2 |    40  |  2.50 |      8.1
         7 |      3.6 |     19 |      90% |   3.3 |    35  |  2.87 |      9.3
         8 |      3.6 |     18 |      89% |   3.2 |    30  |  3.33 |     10.8
         9 |      3.7 |     20 |      90% |   3.4 |    30  |  3.33 |     11.2
        10 |      3.8 |     20 |      89% |   3.3 |    30  |  3.33 |     11.1
        11 |      3.8 |     19 |      90% |   3.4 |    30  |  3.33 |     11.4
        12 |      3.7 |     20 |      90% |   3.4 |    30  |  3.33 |     11.2
        13 |      3.9 |     22 |      90% |   3.5 |    30  |  3.33 |     11.6
        14 |      4.1 |     19 |      89% |   3.7 |    30  |  3.33 |     12.2
        15 |      3.9 |     19 |      91% |   3.6 |    30  |  3.33 |     11.9
        16 |      4.1 |     24 |      90% |   3.7 |    30  |  3.33 |     12.2
        17 |      4.1 |     20 |      90% |   3.7 |    30  |  3.33 |     12.2
        18 |      4.1 |     21 |      90% |   3.7 |    30  |  3.33 |     12.3
        19 |      4.3 |     24 |      91% |   3.9 |    30  |  3.33 |     13.1
        20 |      4.3 |     23 |      90% |   3.9 |    30  |  3.33 |     12.9
        21 |      4.3 |     22 |      90% |   3.9 |    30  |  3.33 |     13.1
        22 |      4.5 |     26 |      91% |   4.2 |    30  |  3.33 |     13.9
        23 |      4.4 |     23 |      91% |   4.0 |    30  |  3.33 |     13.2
        24 |      4.6 |     23 |      91% |   4.2 |    30  |  3.33 |     13.9
        25 |      4.6 |     25 |      90% |   4.2 |    30  |  3.33 |     13.8
        26 |      4.6 |     26 |      91% |   4.2 |    30  |  3.33 |     14.1
        27 |      4.7 |     23 |      90% |   4.3 |    30  |  3.33 |     14.2


[Amnesiac]

This looks sad. I would like weapons skill to do something... This is very strange that you gain the most from first 8 levels for which you don't even need much xp.

[Amnesiac]

what's the fastest server to play from the UK?

[Hirsch I]

I was thinking about proposing unique bonuses for mastering each skill. currently, there is no need to, the bonuses are minimal. having the player aim for skill 27 in their main skill would possibly solve the min delay thing, but idk.
the bonus would be something like:
Staves: gives a chance of hitting another time when landing a hit. the chance rises trough levels 20-27, leading to 50% on skill lvl 27.
Maces & Flails: Gives a chance of mini-stunning the target, like Freeze. the chance and amount of auts stunned raise with Skill lvl, reaching 50% for 5 auts on lvl 27.
things like this. would be cool...

[Lasty]

Oh. One more quick question. How much extra damage will I get from boosting my short blades skill from 14 to 20? How about to 27? Ive got a QB of stabbing +8+7 (which is REMARKABLY resistant to enchantment scrolls ), and not that it matters but Ive got another +20 in slaying bonuses. My KoAs has 12 str and 22 dex if that fits in somewhere.

  Code:

Attack: Kobold Assassin vs. ettin (4000 rounds) (2014/02/12/17:23:35)
Kobold Assassin: XL 22   Str 12   Int 9   Dex 22
Wielding: +8,+7 quick blade of stabbing, Skill: Short Blades
ettin: HD 12   AC 9   EV 4

Short Blad | AvHitDam | MaxDam | Accuracy | AvDam | AvTime | AvSpeed | AvEffDam
         0 |      3.5 |     18 |      88% |   3.1 |    70  |  1.43 |      4.4
         1 |      3.6 |     18 |      88% |   3.2 |    65  |  1.54 |      4.9
         2 |      3.6 |     18 |      89% |   3.2 |    60  |  1.67 |      5.3
         3 |      3.4 |     18 |      89% |   3.1 |    55  |  1.82 |      5.6
         4 |      3.6 |     17 |      88% |   3.2 |    50  |  2.00 |      6.4
         5 |      3.5 |     18 |      89% |   3.1 |    45  |  2.22 |      6.9
         6 |      3.6 |     20 |      90% |   3.2 |    40  |  2.50 |      8.1
         7 |      3.6 |     19 |      90% |   3.3 |    35  |  2.87 |      9.3
         8 |      3.6 |     18 |      89% |   3.2 |    30  |  3.33 |     10.8
         9 |      3.7 |     20 |      90% |   3.4 |    30  |  3.33 |     11.2
        10 |      3.8 |     20 |      89% |   3.3 |    30  |  3.33 |     11.1
        11 |      3.8 |     19 |      90% |   3.4 |    30  |  3.33 |     11.4
        12 |      3.7 |     20 |      90% |   3.4 |    30  |  3.33 |     11.2
        13 |      3.9 |     22 |      90% |   3.5 |    30  |  3.33 |     11.6
        14 |      4.1 |     19 |      89% |   3.7 |    30  |  3.33 |     12.2
        15 |      3.9 |     19 |      91% |   3.6 |    30  |  3.33 |     11.9
        16 |      4.1 |     24 |      90% |   3.7 |    30  |  3.33 |     12.2
        17 |      4.1 |     20 |      90% |   3.7 |    30  |  3.33 |     12.2
        18 |      4.1 |     21 |      90% |   3.7 |    30  |  3.33 |     12.3
        19 |      4.3 |     24 |      91% |   3.9 |    30  |  3.33 |     13.1
        20 |      4.3 |     23 |      90% |   3.9 |    30  |  3.33 |     12.9
        21 |      4.3 |     22 |      90% |   3.9 |    30  |  3.33 |     13.1
        22 |      4.5 |     26 |      91% |   4.2 |    30  |  3.33 |     13.9
        23 |      4.4 |     23 |      91% |   4.0 |    30  |  3.33 |     13.2
        24 |      4.6 |     23 |      91% |   4.2 |    30  |  3.33 |     13.9
        25 |      4.6 |     25 |      90% |   4.2 |    30  |  3.33 |     13.8
        26 |      4.6 |     26 |      91% |   4.2 |    30  |  3.33 |     14.1
        27 |      4.7 |     23 |      90% |   4.3 |    30  |  3.33 |     14.2


Tedronai, is that with the extra 20 slaying taken into account? It doesn't look like it . . .

[Tedronai]

Tedronai, is that with the extra 20 slaying taken into account? It doesn't look like it . . .

This was just the plain quickblade. Here is the same with 15 additional slaying (I will not tinker in wiz-mode to get exactly 20):

  Code:

Attack: Kobold Assassin vs. ettin (4000 rounds) (2014/02/12/19:18:57)
Kobold Assassin: XL 22   Str 12   Int 9   Dex 22
Wielding: +8,+7 quick blade of stabbing, Skill: Short Blades
ettin: HD 12   AC 9   EV 4

Short Blad | AvHitDam | MaxDam | Accuracy | AvDam | AvTime | AvSpeed | AvEffDam
         0 |     11.6 |     37 |      91% |  10.7 |    70  |  1.43 |     15.3
         1 |     11.8 |     37 |      92% |  10.9 |    65  |  1.54 |     16.7
         2 |     11.7 |     40 |      92% |  10.8 |    60  |  1.67 |     18.0
         3 |     11.8 |     38 |      91% |  10.8 |    55  |  1.81 |     19.6
         4 |     11.5 |     36 |      91% |  10.5 |    50  |  2.00 |     21.0
         5 |     11.7 |     36 |      91% |  10.8 |    45  |  2.22 |     23.9
         6 |     11.3 |     36 |      91% |  10.3 |    40  |  2.50 |     25.8
         7 |     11.7 |     37 |      92% |  10.8 |    35  |  2.87 |     30.9
         8 |     11.9 |     37 |      91% |  10.9 |    30  |  3.33 |     36.2
         9 |     11.6 |     36 |      92% |  10.7 |    30  |  3.33 |     35.5
        10 |     11.8 |     39 |      92% |  10.8 |    30  |  3.33 |     36.1
        11 |     12.2 |     37 |      91% |  11.2 |    30  |  3.33 |     37.4
        12 |     11.9 |     36 |      92% |  11.0 |    30  |  3.33 |     36.8
        13 |     12.1 |     37 |      91% |  11.1 |    30  |  3.33 |     36.9
        14 |     12.0 |     41 |      91% |  11.1 |    30  |  3.33 |     36.9
        15 |     12.3 |     40 |      92% |  11.4 |    30  |  3.33 |     37.9
        16 |     12.4 |     39 |      91% |  11.4 |    30  |  3.33 |     38.0
        17 |     12.5 |     38 |      92% |  11.5 |    30  |  3.33 |     38.3
        18 |     12.3 |     40 |      91% |  11.3 |    30  |  3.33 |     37.8
        19 |     12.3 |     40 |      92% |  11.3 |    30  |  3.33 |     37.6
        20 |     12.4 |     43 |      92% |  11.5 |    30  |  3.33 |     38.3
        21 |     12.6 |     40 |      92% |  11.7 |    30  |  3.33 |     38.9
        22 |     12.7 |     39 |      92% |  11.8 |    30  |  3.33 |     39.4
        23 |     12.9 |     45 |      92% |  12.0 |    30  |  3.33 |     40.0
        24 |     12.8 |     39 |      91% |  11.7 |    30  |  3.33 |     39.1
        25 |     12.7 |     39 |      92% |  11.8 |    30  |  3.33 |     39.2
        26 |     12.6 |     41 |      92% |  11.6 |    30  |  3.33 |     38.8
        27 |     12.9 |     41 |      92% |  11.9 |    30  |  3.33 |     39.8


[Sar]

I like how it peaks at 23 skill.

[daggaz]

Shit. I knew it wasnt much but I always thought it was worth something. Guess I should have put that into charms and gotten haste even lower. Or worked on firestorm or something. Oh well, it was cheap enough with that kobold bonus. Thanks for running numbers for me guys.

This looks sad. I would like weapons skill to do something... This is very strange that you gain the most from first 8 levels for which you don't even need much xp.

Well that would be the weapon delay coming down, of course. And while its 'cheap' xp at those levels, its also offset by the fact that you dont have any xp anywhere else, as well as being at your most vulnerable versus monsters, which makes it very valuable xp.. I agree tho that it would be nice if it did something, Hirsch's idea about a capstone ability is not bad at all.

[crate]

I like how it peaks at 23 skill.

Randomness is great, isn't it.

27 skill still gives more damage than lower skill, on average, for a qblade. But as the fsim output shows, this increase is not very large; in fact it is small enough that even over howevermany attacks fsim does (1000?) the randomness of melee combat damage can overwhelm the increase.

[daggaz]

27 skill still gives more damage than lower skill, on average, for a qblade. But as the fsim output shows, this increase is not very large; in fact it is small enough that even over howevermany attacks fsim does (1000?) the randomness of melee combat damage can overwhelm the increase.

Yeah, needs +- standard deviation on those statistics to make any real sense of them.

[Tedronai]

in fact it is small enough that even over howevermany attacks fsim does (1000?)

  Code:

Attack: Kobold Assassin vs. ettin (4000 rounds)

Variance is a great thing, isn't it

[Amnesiac]

Ridiculous. Why not just give short blades min delay from the start and remove the skill entirely. I mean, with 20 slaying you get from 36 dmg to 40 by training from 8 to 27...

[Sar]

Why even mention slaying? Weapon skill only multiplies base damage.

[daggaz]

Why even mention slaying? Weapon skill only multiplies base damage.

True, but I mentioned it because its quite easy to equal or even surpass the average, unmodified base damage with only a single good source of slaying. Which just compounds the whole problem of shortblades being more or less pointless except for getting an optimal blade to min-delay, which happens very early in comparison to say, the best axes..

[Siegurt]

Currently there's a plan to change the way delay is calculated so that there's always some return (Speed-wise) for training more weapon skill, if the kinks are worked out, it will give you some speed returns for training past current delay settings.

Also currently, there are no "bonuses" for mastering any skill (Other than nifty titles) to me it looks like this is by design, as it's sub-optimal to encourage people rushing to master skills at the exclusion of others. (It might be a neat idea, but doing so without generating degenerate behavior isn't so simple)

Beyond the point at which speed is maxed, training weapon skills yeilds d(1/25) or roughly 2% more damage per point, this percentage increase is applied to the base damage of the weapon (As are the percentage increases from fighting (d(1/30), 1.6%) per point, and str/dex (d(1/39), 1.3%) per point of both str & dex) Slaying and weapon damage bonuses (And additive brands) are *not* multiplied by your weapon skill.

So for a quick blade (base damage 5) going from 14 to 20 would be an average of 12% of 5 (about .6 of a point) multiplied by all the rest of your multipliers, probably you'd be looking at between 2/3 and 1 point, maybe as high as 1.5 points, if you already have very high str+dex and very high fighting. You'll note that the fsim tests done by Tedronai bear this out (They show an increase of .6 of a point after AC)

Note that slaying damage is uneffected by weapon skill (except by virtue of increasing weapon speed) once speed is maxed, weapon skill has no bearing on slaying damage done.

[Sar]

shortblades being more or less pointless except for getting an optimal blade to min-delay

I don't get it, really. Short blades require less skill generally. They also generally do less damage, unless you are stabbing. But they do more damage if you are stabbing. But to stab, you need to train other skills.
You also need to find that "optimal blade".

[Siegurt]

Also the shortblades skill past min delay does still improve stabbing damage by a reasonable amount.

[Lasty]

Shit. I knew it wasnt much but I always thought it was worth something.

It's worth more on high base-damage weapons, though still not a huge amount, considering how expensive those later levels are.

[daggaz]

Also the shortblades skill past min delay does still improve stabbing damage by a reasonable amount.

Sure you up stabbing damage, but really its not an issue once you have SB to 12 and Stealth to 12 or higher. Stabbing is strong enough that you one-shot pretty much everything regardless. Maybe the stabbing bonuses need to be scaled back, actually..

It's worth more on high base-damage weapons, though still not a huge amount, considering how expensive those later levels are.

You also need those levels to gain min-delay for heavy weapons like executioners axe or triple swords. That alone pays the player back.

I fully understand the drawbacks and benefits of shortblades and their damage output. The point remains however, that boosting your SB skill to 27 is essentially pointless. This is problematic not only because you are getting nothing for quite a large investment, but because it is the kind of thing a new player would automatically think is a smart if not optimal thing to do. "Max out my main weapon skill? Thats a no-brainer."

Its not like its difficult to tweak, either. Add a better scaling factor so that all weapons get somewhat appreciably better with skill, keeping shortblades still at the bottom of the list. The capstone idea is a cool one as well, if interesting rewards can found.

EDIT: just saw your post seigurt on the speed idea and cons on capstones. food for thought.