Thinking too far ahead gets me killed

[monty]

I've noticed that my deaths often are a result of risky moves that I make with the subconscious justification that it will make my character stronger later on. For instance, I might run past a somewhat dangerous enemy to find a labyrinth, thinking that the loot will give me a better chance of overcoming later challenges. Or, I might hesitate to use summons until it's absolutely critical for fear of ending up under-leveled.

Of course, I get killed by these kinds of mistakes way more often than I find myself weak in the late game (never). Crawl is my first real roguelike, and I think these ideas are stuck in my head from playing RPGs. In most RPGs, you need to plan carefully for the endgame to end up not being weak. You choose the path that will result in the strongest max level character, without much consideration for how to get to max level. This mentality is horrible for Crawl but hard to break for a longtime gamer and new RL player.

Has anyone else thought about this?

[Sprucery]

One of the key issues is Crawl is learning to use consumables and other available resources before it is too late to use them. You can't develop a dead character.

[Sandman25]

Yes, I am still struggling with similar problems:
1) Saving piety for Oka's gifts instead of activating Heroism
2) Butchering a corpse when I am hungry instead of sacrificing it
3) Exposing myself trying to save permanent allies (somewhat related to XP penalty also)
4) Saving consumables in dangerous fights. Just yesterday I didn't quaff any potions and attacked Enchantress about 25 times (0.3 turn per attack, dire flail of speed is fun) trying to hit her just once (GrBe can survive that long easily despite BiA were confused and died very fast). Her EV is amazing. Escaped at half HP and easily killed her next time with Might + Speed + Agility.

But DCSS is different from typical RPG, no matter how weak you are you still can win with 3 runes (I had some funny Zot5 runs where I was a bloodless vampire, or where I didn't use haste, or where I used random teleports to get the orb, or where I was a pretty weak Fe) and no matter how powerful you are you can still die fast in extended if you are not careful (except Dj under Necromutation I suppose).

Edit: But DCSS is different from typical RPG

[Amnesiac]

My thoughts are a bit less specific... I think, everyone has their own problems. My style is to not leave anyone alive/moving. Even if I'm playing a character that can easily just steal everything and leave. This often kills me or nearly does so. Still, it's fun and thrilling, so I think that everyone should just do what they want to and if they have a strong wish to improve, they'll do it eventually.
I, for example, just don't have wish to improve or to win, so I still make the same mistakes while having a lot of fun playing. Actually I even have a feeling that fun and calculating play(the correct way for winning) are conflicting with each other. You can gamble and either lose your character or win some experience, loot and satisfaction or you can just... turn and leave for some easier parts of the game, there are always some or your character is screwed up anyway.

These are thoughs of a bad player, btw. Who won just a couple of times out of thousands of games. Do I regret it? No.
(btw, I'm bragging, but those two games were a 15-runer with zigs and a kind-of-a-challenge-game where I didn't train defensive skills and weapons, so you could get the idea that I have a bit different aims rather than just winning)

[and into]

1.) Yeah you shouldn't worry about saving piety for Oka's gifts. Apart from the fact that Okawaru's non-ammo gifts are nothing to hang your hat on, ever, there is also the fact that heroism is so cheap you will probably lose more piety on average from resting to refill the extra HP you needlessly lost from not having that +5 to all physical skills. For fights that are totally trivial, don't bother, for everything else either a.) run away or b.) use heroism (plus whatever other buffs, as appropriate).

2.) Assuming you aren't spriggan, you should butcher a corpse and eat chunks when you are hungry, unless you are hard up for allies via necromancy.

3.) Yes, you shouldn't put your character into any real danger in the name of permanent allies. If it helps just assume that your allies are totally useless without your leadership (Crawl AI makes this easy to believe) and if you die, all of them will be mercilessly slaughtered in short order. Sometimes you gotta sacrifice a few soldiers to save the platoon.

4.) Yes, use consumables against tough stuff.


It isn't so much "thinking too far ahead," I think, but learning to trust yourself and your ability to use what the RNG will provide down the line. When I was newer to the game there was a pretty long period where I would be like, "no I want to save this for when I might need it even more than I do now." The problem there isn't that I was thinking too far ahead, per se, but rather I didn't have enough experience to trust that, if I ensure my survival now using my last ?blinking (e.g.), then before the next time comes when I need that ?blinking, I will have had a pretty good chance of finding stuff that gives me more options in a similarly tricky situation. Not necessarily another ?blinking, but maybe some wands, or ?fog, or better armor, or what have you. Early on consumables are scarce, but every moment you survive, your character is becoming significantly better established and more likely to continue surviving. That is why you need to be willing to use everything and anything to stay alive and advance further. (If that weren't the case with Crawl, being stingier with consumables early on would be a more viable strategy.)

[TheDefiniteArticle]

One of the big advantages of roguelikes is that every battle is life-or-death.

If you bet on "I can handle this situation without using all I've got" you'll be right plenty of times. But you can't afford to be wrong EVER.

In Crawl in particular, bad situations are ridiculously bad. The single most important skill is identifying bad situations before they occur, and getting out of them before they become bad (this is why movement speed is so utterly dominating in Crawl, while in other games it is merely 'very good'). Even in potentially bad situations, a consumable is often warranted to nip problems in the bud. So when you find yourself in actual trouble, pulling out all the stops should not even require a decision.

[Sandman25]

1.) Yeah you shouldn't worry about saving piety for Oka's gifts. Apart from the fact that Okawaru's non-ammo gifts are nothing to hang your hat on, ever, there is also the fact that heroism is so cheap you will probably lose more piety on average from resting to refill the extra HP you needlessly lost from not having that +5 to all physical skills. For fights that are totally trivial, don't bother, for everything else either a.) run away or b.) use heroism (plus whatever other buffs, as appropriate).

2.) Assuming you aren't spriggan, you should butcher a corpse and eat chunks when you are hungry, unless you are hard up for allies via necromancy.

3.) Yes, you shouldn't put your character into any real danger in the name of permanent allies. If it helps just assume that your allies are totally useless without your leadership (Crawl AI makes this easy to believe) and if you die, all of them will be mercilessly slaughtered in short order. Sometimes you gotta sacrifice a few soldiers to save the platoon.

4.) Yes, use consumables against tough stuff.


It isn't so much "thinking too far ahead," I think, but learning to trust yourself and your ability to use what the RNG will provide down the line. When I was newer to the game there was a pretty long period where I would be like, "no I want to save this for when I might need it even more than I do now." The problem there isn't that I was thinking too far ahead, per se, but rather I didn't have enough experience to trust that, if I ensure my survival now using my last ?blinking (e.g.), then before the next time comes when I need that ?blinking, I will have had a pretty good chance of finding stuff that gives me more options in a similarly tricky situation. Not necessarily another ?blinking, but maybe some wands, or ?fog, or better armor, or what have you. Early on consumables are scarce, but every moment you survive, your character is becoming significantly better established and more likely to continue surviving. That is why you need to be willing to use everything and anything to stay alive and advance further. (If that weren't the case with Crawl, being stingier with consumables early on would be a more viable strategy.)

1) Yes, I know all this, it's irrational "decision".
2) I learned from spectating minmay that wandering at nearly starving is not that bad because when you butcher some large corpse you can eat several chunks in a row, that maximizes piety. Though it's "thinking too far" indeed

Some of my latest deaths were caused by running out of fear/teleportation/blink and then I realize perhaps I should have saved some of them earlier. But then it contradicts to "escape early". Crawl is cruel, no matter what you do it could be wrong depending on what monsters/loot you find later.

[and into]

I haven't spectated minmay running around at near starving, though I do not doubt that *he* can get away with doing that sort of thing. I would, uh, not recommend other players trying it. Yes, you don't need to obsess about staying at full, true. It is probably better play to wait until "Very Hungry" for most non-berserking characters, though I really doubt it would matter very much either way. Needlessly wandering around at near starving is really dangerous though, especially as you are saving yourself, what? A few turns on average (or 1 if you have animate skeleton) for every Satiated --> Near Starving cycle?

[TheDefiniteArticle]

2) I learned from spectating minmay that wandering at nearly starving is not that bad because when you butcher some large corpse you can eat several chunks in a row, that maximizes piety. Though it's "thinking too far" indeed

Thinking about this at all is overthinking because both of the resources in question are very plentiful.

Some of my latest deaths were caused by running out of fear/teleportation/blink and then I realize perhaps I should have saved some of them earlier. But then it contradicts to "escape early"

What is meant by "escape early" is "preferably so early that you escape by walking". If you need to use fear/tele, It is likely because you have already allowed the situation become worse than it needed to be.

[tedric]

Yeah, the inclination not to use what I've got because I might need it even more in the hypothetical "next" fight is something I've been trying to overcome for a very, very long time with only moderate success. I think the problem for me is part overconfidence, and part laziness. I end up getting lots of chars through lair and orc only to splat them somewhere else because it just feels easier to try to power through a less-than-optimal situation rather than pause and think hard about my options and figure out the best thing to do. It's all well and good for folks to repeat the advice that consumables are use-'em-or-lose-'em, but the fact is it's not that simple. You have to know which consumables to use, and when, and in what order -- and all of that depends on the situation. There are times when I manage the self-control to pause and work out a plan, and it feels great when those plans work out, but it's also clear that it's as much art as science.

You also have to consider that maybe your poor tactical choices are splatting you in a situation where better strategic choices earlier on would have made you more able to pull through. I've been splatting lots of HOFEs recently, and though I know tactics are a big part of the problem, I think my skilling decisions may be screwing me over. In my experience, no amount of tactics can save a character who's dumped too much XP into the wrong skill, and as such can't earn enough new XP to compensate before the damage ratio shifts too far in the Dungeon's favor.

[ackack]

With a lot of the recent changes in trunk, I'd say consumables are even more important than they already were. This means that a) you should definitely be willing to use them if you need them, but b) you should make sure you actually need them before you use them because you will probably need them later. Picking this up requires a good sense for what is dangerous (and also how the danger of specific situations can be lessened.) That's probably the single most important Crawl skill and it is the one that is least communicable.

If you're underusing consumables (and you probably are), try going the other way for a bit. Just be conscious that it's definitely possible to swing the needle back too far in the other direction. Also remember that there are lots of different kinds of consumables and you should make sure that you're availing yourself of all of them.