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Just reading through the KoBe guide on the Wiki:

<http://crawl.chaosforge.org/index.php?title=Kobold_Berserker_guide>

...and was wondering about this:

"When first starting out, disable everything so you can get a couple levels in short blades. After you've gotten onto your feet, keep the following enabled at all times:
Fighting (Increases HP and combat ability)
Dodging (Extremely, extremely useful. Train it!)
Armor (It'll only rise if you wear armor with an EV penalty)
Traps & Doors (No need to explicitly train it early; just keep it on)
If you grab a buckler, then enable shields until it reaches level 5 or so. You can also grab a few levels in Throwing if you want (and it'll increase fast due to high kobold aptitude).
You can also train Unarmed a little bit to get some extra melee attacks. That's up to you.
You may notice, I do not want you to enable Short Blades. Its aptitude for kobolds is so high that it'll increase just fine while disabled. Also, it steals XP from the more important fighting and dodging."

Specifically, the advice to turn off Short Blades. I have a promising KoBe in 0.8 and find that Short Blades doesn't really seem to be advancing much (neither does Fighting for that matter), with the preceding advice being followed. Is it a 0.8 thing?

Also, if the above is about right, does it relate to the whole game, or just the early/mid game?

Thanks!

I think that guide is a bit outdated, you should keep shortblades on until you reach the skill needed for the minimum delay of your weapon then turn it off, pretty sure it is 8 for quickblades, 10 for knives and daggers, 12 for short swords and 14 for sabres.

I have ascended kobold berserker one time (0.7) and disabled short blades at skill level 14 or so. Never enabled it back, and still it was my first skill to maximize, soon before fighting. I don't think Kobold apts for SB have changed in 0.8.
At SB 14 there is not much point in keeping it enabled, since all the short blades will already be at their min delay. Much better to invest xp in fighting.

Edit: Ninja'ed.

What does increasing SB beyond 14 do? Does it apply additional chance to hit?

Dustbin wrote:I think that guide is a bit outdated, you should keep shortblades on until you reach the skill needed for the minimum delay of your weapon then turn it off, pretty sure it is 8 for quickblades, 10 for knives and daggers, 12 for short swords and 14 for sabres.

How is this determined? Hitting '@' and interpreting the status? Not really the place for it, but I see the idea of minimum delay pop up a lot on these forums and I can intuit what it means, but not specifically how to determine it.

smeej wrote:
Dustbin wrote:I think that guide is a bit outdated, you should keep shortblades on until you reach the skill needed for the minimum delay of your weapon then turn it off, pretty sure it is 8 for quickblades, 10 for knives and daggers, 12 for short swords and 14 for sabres.
How is this determined? Hitting '@' and interpreting the status?

If you look at the inventory description of a weapon, it will tell you the base delay (ex: Daggers are 100%). The minimum base delay is half of the maximum of any given weapon, barring speed branding I think. In order to knock off 10% of the delay, you need two points invested in the relevant skill. (So in order to get daggers from 100% down to 50%, you need 10 skill points invested, two for each 10% lost)

Someone correct me if I didn't get this right.

Megabass wrote:
smeej wrote:
Dustbin wrote:I think that guide is a bit outdated, you should keep shortblades on until you reach the skill needed for the minimum delay of your weapon then turn it off, pretty sure it is 8 for quickblades, 10 for knives and daggers, 12 for short swords and 14 for sabres.
How is this determined? Hitting '@' and interpreting the status?

If you look at the inventory description of a weapon, it will tell you the base delay (ex: Daggers are 100%). The minimum base delay is half of the maximum of any given weapon, barring speed branding I think. In order to knock off 10% of the delay, you need two points invested in the relevant skill. (So in order to get daggers from 100% down to 50%, you need 10 skill points invested, two for each 10% lost)

Someone correct me if I didn't get this right.

All the Short Blades have a minimum delay of 5 (except Q Blade). The minimum base delay is not always half of the maximum. Sabre is base delay 12, but min delay is 5 just like dagger.

My last KoBr had good success using M&F instead of short blades. It was nice to have better damage output but I don't know if it was really any better. Has anyone else tried this?

The guide is okay, but it could definitely use some work. I've played a few KoBe myself, and currently have the online high score for that combo. Granted, I am sure any of the real top end players could handily beat that score if they tried. I stuck with Trog the entire game, and even ended up one shot stabbing Mnoleg and Asmodeus.

My personal advice when it comes to skills, for most any character, is just to keep your important skills balanced. For the most part, I feel that advice of "get skill X to number Y and then turn it off" is unnecessary. If you notice any particular skill running away, throttle it back so that other skills can catch up. You'll never have to throttle back fighting or spellcasting on any characters, but the rest of the skills are all game. I find I often end up throttling dodging a little in the early game, despite the advice given. Once your melee skills get better, combats won't take as long, so dodging won't get as much time to train.

You'll likely need to power up shields a bit, once you get a buckler. I disagree with his "If you grab a buckler, then enable shields until it reaches level 5 or so". Once you get a buckler, I would suggest victory dancing shields a bit. Turn off dodging when you get some exp, and let some rats or whatever nibble your ass. You need a shield skill of 7 to negate penalties from a buckler. It will take 21 for a medium shield, but they become pretty wearable once you get to 14+ shield skill. I would suggest never turning shields off, as kobold shield skill isn't very good. It is very unlikely that your shield skill will be outpacing your other skills.

One thing I highly suggest, which that guide does not mention, is invokable invisibility. A big part of the KoBe game is stealth and stabbing, and getting a workable invis can really help with some areas. It helps you get to sleeping enemies without alerting them, and if alerted they can't see you. It makes vault easier, as most things can't see invis there. It really helps in zot, since draconian packs can't see invis. I used an invis ring quite a bit in the game I linked above.

smock wrote:My last KoBr had good success using M&F instead of short blades. It was nice to have better damage output but I don't know if it was really any better. Has anyone else tried this?

Demon whips are definitely a better brawling weapon than any short blade. When it comes to straight out fights a demon whip will win. For most KoBe though, stealth and stabbing are a large part of the game, and for that you really want a short blade.

FilthyApe wrote: A big part of the KoBe game is stealth and stabbing, and getting a workable invis can really help with some areas.

I take it that you wouldn't agree with "Disable anything else if you learn it. Due to aptitudes, stealth and stabbing will train whether you like it or not, but it's not something we want to encourage." then! :-)

I would definitely disagree with that, yes. If you want to play a KoBe while not encouraging stealth and stabbing, you should be using a demon whip instead of a short blade. Most KoBe will be stabbing, and should be gutting half of the monsters later on without being seen. Stabbing is very powerful.

My decision list for a KoBe is something like

1) Is it sleeping? If so, stab it.
2) Can it see invisible? If not, go invis and stab it.
3) Can you beat it in a straight fight? If so, do so.
4) Is it too hard to beat in a straight fight? If so, berserk.
5) Is it too tough to fight alone, even when berserked? If so, summon some brothers in arms for backup, and berserk.
6) Is it too hard for step 5? If so, run the hell away.

One thing to also consider for a KoBe is a ranged weapon. Crossbows are a good choice for kobolds as they have +2 attitude in it. You are very unlikely to run out of bolts between yaktaurs and Trog's gifts and silver bolts are especially awesome against undead enemies.

Sling bullets do lots of damage right now, with Trog gifting silver and steel ammo and all.

Would anyone recommend crossbows over slings? I mean, between the shield penalty (or not using a shield) and the relative abundance of stone and bullets before entering the vaults, I'm not sure what the excuse for crossbows is. Do they really do that much more damage?

Both can work okay. I wouldn't really say there is an abundance of bullets though. Sure, you are likely to find enough stones early on, but good bullets don't really seem all that much more common than finding crossbow bolts. One you start encountering yaktaur packs though, you are likely to be finding a whole lot more bolts than you are bullets of any sort. If Trog ends up gifting me a particularly balling sling or crossobow early on, I would probably make my choice based upon that.

Mostly, your ranged weapon as a berserker will serve three purposes.
1) Soften up melee dudes before they get into melee.
2) Take out runners.
3) Take out dangerous casters in open areas.

Enchanting up a large stack of silver/steel ammo is a good idea. In the 15 rune game I did, I didn't have access to any steel, so I enchanted 100+ silver bolts to +7. These were instrumental in finishing tomb. You often don't want to take the chance of needing to close in on something dangerous like a mummy priest or greater mummy. That would be a good way of eating a bunch of torments and getting surrounded by demon summons. A couple silver bolts to the noggin is a much better way of killing a pesky mummy priest. You could even take off your shield there, if you wanted. It isn't like melee is the big threat for a KoBe in tomb.

I didn't have rMut, so I also used bolts quite a bit to take out nexoqitcs (however you spell it) on the edge of my line of sight before they could mutate me.

FilthyApe wrote:Both can work okay. I wouldn't really say there is an abundance of bullets though. Sure, you are likely to find enough stones early on, but good bullets don't really seem all that much more common than finding crossbow bolts. One you start encountering yaktaur packs though, you are likely to be finding a whole lot more bolts than you are bullets of any sort. If Trog ends up gifting me a particularly balling sling or crossobow early on, I would probably make my choice based upon that.

As for the early game, the KoBe can train slings or crossbows (or throwing, I suppose) or neither. I'm assuming you train neither and wait for a nice launcher?

I probably wouldn't train ranged very hard at the start of the game, yeah. It is more important to build up your melee and survivability skills. Once your ranged skill gets up, Trog will start with a lot of ammo gifts too. Early on, you probably want your gift timer going towards melee weapons.

I am not saying 'don't use any ranged in the early game at all', but maybe keep it low at the start, and don't victory dance it up. Once you are sure you are going to stick with your choice, and the other important skills are developed, you can work on it more.

This is all just my personal experience though. I have no doubt somebody could make an early ranged-heavy KoBe and be successful with it.

Kokor Hekkus wrote:Specifically, the advice to turn off Short Blades. I have a promising KoBe in 0.8 and find that Short Blades doesn't really seem to be advancing much (neither does Fighting for that matter), with the preceding advice being followed. Is it a 0.8 thing?

The advice to turn off weapon skill early because it will train anyway is obsolete. Fighting trains about 4 times slower than weapon skills, and in 0.7, disabling a skill slows down it's training by 4. They end up advancing at the same rate. In 0.8, disabling a skill gets more effective as the skill raises. Exercise is skipped 1 time in (skill_level+3). At level 5, it's already twice slower than in 0.7.

What makes KoBe's so different than SpBe's?

Can't the advice be consolidated for them?

That and the main reason to play a SpBe is for the rain of gifts. With kobolds you actaully have to waste some of those corpses on eating.

When deciding which corpses to eat and which to grill for piety, does the number of chunks/size of the corpse matter? Is it optimal to pig-out on one n-chunk corpse every so often, sacrificing the small fry, or nosh on the n 1-chunk corpses as necessary and always sacrificing the big meals?

minmay wrote:SpBe almost never berserks. KoBe almost always berserks.

What, really?

I always berserk. Why wouldn't you?

XuaXua wrote:
minmay wrote:SpBe almost never berserks. KoBe almost always berserks.

What, really?

I always berserk. Why wouldn't you?

Lack of permafood at a given point, probably, whether it be an present absence or conservation in order to its absence later when it matters.

ohmi wrote:When deciding which corpses to eat and which to grill for piety, does the number of chunks/size of the corpse matter? Is it optimal to pig-out on one n-chunk corpse every so often, sacrificing the small fry, or nosh on the n 1-chunk corpses as necessary and always sacrificing the big meals?

While I am terribly familiar with all of the code, I gave the corpse sacrifice code a quick lookover. It eventually leads to this chunk.

Code:: 571 // XXX: this assumes that there's no overlap between 572 // item-accepting gods and corpse-accepting gods. 573 if (god_likes_fresh_corpses(you.religion)) 574 { 575 gain_piety(13, 19); 576 577 // The feedback is not accurate any longer on purpose; it only reveals 578 // the rate you get piety at. 579 if (x_chance_in_y(13, 19)) 580 relative_piety_gain = PIETY_SOME; 581 }

It looks like the arguments to gain_piety are constant, no matter what the corpse is you are sacrificing. If you really wanted to try to maximize your piety gain, I guess you could try to chop more of the large corpses and sac more of the small ones. I've never personally bothered trying to optimize to that level though. I generally just eat if I am hungry and there is a corpse.

Thanks, great info -- So this means piety game for corpses is exactly the same for all gods who accept them? Do the piety levels vary or are they fixed also?

ohmi wrote:Thanks, great info -- So this means piety game for corpses is exactly the same for all gods who accept them? Do the piety levels vary or are they fixed also?

Actually, I seem to recall reading something about corpse sacrifices being weight(aum) dependent, though that may just be for Nemelex. Code speaks louder than my frequently-proven-to-be-terrible memory though.

minmay wrote:
XuaXua wrote:I always berserk. Why wouldn't you?

Because if you're a spriggan and you always berserk, you'll starve to death in Lair.

Somehow I've never had that problem, but I abuse wands and hit hive as much as possible.

Also, berserk is dangerous. You lose a lot of strategic options- no scrolls, evocations, etc. Worse, it screws with your spriggan ability to run away safely when things get tough. It's hard to exploit spriggan speed and outrun everything when you have a 'zerk running out and slowing you 3 or 4 rounds after you stop mashing the attack key.

Then yes, there's the food issue. A single 'zerk pretty much equals one lost permafood. Pre-hive, that's quite the problem for a spriggan.

even after hive it's a problem if you get mobbed by like 5 harpies, not only do they hit disgustingly hard, but they destroy all your food too!

FlyingPants wrote:even after hive it's a problem if you get mobbed by like 5 harpies, not only do they hit disgustingly hard, but they destroy all your food too!

That's why you drop all your food at the entrance to The Shoals and run back when you have to. Spriggan speed.

It wasn't in the shoal, it was like D20 or something.

FlyingPants wrote:It wasn't in the shoal, it was like D20 or something.

Oh. That's when you run. Also when you see the hunger ghost room.

ohmi wrote:Thanks, great info -- So this means piety game for corpses is exactly the same for all gods who accept them? Do the piety levels vary or are they fixed also?

For now all corpses give the same piety with the blood gods. There's plan to change it, but piety will scale with monster difficulty (probably HP), not weight.

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