Ring of strength or slaying

[mrthehoople]

Hi there

I'm trying to do my first 3 rune win with a MiBe and having a bit of a lucky time with it this go. I've just acquired a +0/+6 ring of slaying, a +5 ring of evasion and a +4 ring of strength. I'm guessing the slaying ring is better?

I'm running a 1 handed build with large shield. Mostly because I acquired a +6/+10 sling of flame with rElec and rF and a +4/+8 war axe of venom with str+1. I've also got a rod of demonology and feeling pretty good about progress so far. I'm only on lair 7 at the moment. I think the damage from ring of slaying will be better, but do the added bonuses of the ring of strength in any way give an extra bonus - higher firing rate and to hit bonuses?

Many thanks
Matt

[Azrael]

Use the slaying ring.

[Klown]

Slaying and Evasion.

[duvessa]

A +8 war axe of venom is not actually a great weapon. For example, a +4 broad axe of freezing would be better.

[daggaz]

Just so you know, everybody is saying slaying because slaying bonuses are pretty much the best thing that can happen for a melee orientated character. You might run into some rare situations where you want to switch out (temporarily) for some resistance instead.. but really you are almost always better off killing whatever it is that much faster.

Rings of strength/dex/int are junk for the most part. It can be nice if you get the bonus as an extra on a randart item, but really its not making a huge difference for your character, especially if its on your main stat. You probably wont even notice unless its at least +5 or +6. A +1 of strength is just total garbage.

[dck]

While you often have better things to wear than int rings, dex rings are good.

[Lasty]

+5 Evasion is a pretty decent ring, though, and better than most things that aren't slaying. Probably you want to wear that with your slaying ring.

Also, keep in mind that your sling is great against monsters that do not resist fire, but bad to terrible against monsters that do, because the damage it deals is 100% fire damage. I believe you can profit from up to 23 strength (IIRC) when wielding a +10 sling, but as a minotaur, you should get about that much without actively putting extra points into strength or wearing +str rings.

[pickled_heretic]

Disregarding accuracy, +5 str is going to be more average damage than +5 slaying, but this is going to be heavily reliant on the strength weight of your weapon, how strong you already are, and what kind of brand your weapon has.

Incoming shitstorm

[Sandman25]

Well, with 100% str weapon on initially Str 11 character +5 Strength ring
multiplies damage by (1+2*random2(5)/39).
With rolled damage N it will be superior to +5 ring of slaying if:
N*2*random2(5)/39 > random2(5)
N*2/39 > 1
N > 19

Not too hard with GSC IMHO

  Code:

int melee_attack::player_stat_modify_damage(int damage)
{
    int dammod = 39;
    const int dam_stat_val = calc_stat_to_dam_base();

    if (dam_stat_val > 11)
        dammod += (random2(dam_stat_val - 11) * 2);
    else if (dam_stat_val < 9)
        dammod -= (random2(9 - dam_stat_val) * 3);

    damage *= dammod;
    damage /= 39;

    return damage;
}

PS. Yes, slaying is overestimated along with running, swiftness, necromutation, death's door etc

[Siegurt]

Actually your mistaken.

That's because the extra damage done by strength is rolled and then the result is *also* rolled

5 strength is on average:

d(d(5/39))=3.2% for a max str-weight weapon (1.6% more damage with a min str-weight weapon)

5 slaying is on average 2.5 more points of damage

in order for 1.6% to be > 2.5, your base damage would need to be 152, in order for 3.2% to be greater than 2.5, your base damage would need to be 76..

In order to have a base damage of 76 with a GSC (The highest base damage weapon with the largest strength weight) you need to have a 245% bonus to damage from weapon skill and fighting, if you max both of those (to 27) you have a 205% bonus to damage from weapon and fighting skill

[Siegurt]

Oh, damn I forgot the stupid *2, it's 3.2 and 6.4% respectively, which puts the damage needed at 39 for a GSC, which is only a 75% bonus, which is entirely within the realm of possible.

[Sandman25]

I guess we should have used fsim instead

That strength ring would increase max inventory weight and could increase dodging for some body armours so basically ring of slaying is not a no-brainer, at least +0,+5 one.

[duvessa]

did you also know that this character isn't wielding a fucking gsc

[Sandman25]

Tr, Str 11, Dex 11, Fighting 27, M&F 27, +0 giant spiked club (freeze) vs Yak.

  Code:

           AvHitDam | MaxDam | Accuracy | AvDam | AvTime | AvSpeed | AvEffDam
Attacking:     27.2 |    106 |      78% |  21.3 |    70  |  1.43 |     30.4
Defending:      6.7 |     18 |      69% |   4.7 |   100  |  1.00 |      4.7
You feel stronger.
h - a +5 ring of strength (left claw)
           AvHitDam | MaxDam | Accuracy | AvDam | AvTime | AvSpeed | AvEffDam
Attacking:     29.8 |    115 |      79% |  23.8 |    70  |  1.43 |     34.0
Defending:      6.9 |     18 |      69% |   4.8 |   100  |  1.00 |      4.8
You remove your +5 ring of strength.
You feel weaker.
i - a +0,+5 ring of slaying (left claw)
           AvHitDam | MaxDam | Accuracy | AvDam | AvTime | AvSpeed | AvEffDam
Attacking:     29.7 |    108 |      79% |  23.7 |    70  |  1.43 |     33.9
Defending:      6.8 |     18 |      69% |   4.7 |   100  |  1.00 |      4.7

The same Tr with 27 UC.

  Code:

           AvHitDam | MaxDam | Accuracy | AvDam | AvTime | AvSpeed | AvEffDam
Attacking:     26.0 |     87 |      82% |  21.4 |    50  |  2.00 |     42.8
Defending:      6.7 |     18 |      68% |   4.6 |   100  |  1.00 |      4.6

           AvHitDam | MaxDam | Accuracy | AvDam | AvTime | AvSpeed | AvEffDam
Attacking:     28.1 |     96 |      82% |  23.1 |    50  |  2.00 |     46.3
Defending:      6.8 |     18 |      69% |   4.7 |   100  |  1.00 |      4.7

           AvHitDam | MaxDam | Accuracy | AvDam | AvTime | AvSpeed | AvEffDam
Attacking:     28.3 |    100 |      83% |  23.5 |    50  |  2.00 |     47.1
Defending:      6.9 |     18 |      68% |   4.7 |   100  |  1.00 |      4.7

So basically that ring of slaying is always better (I ignore 33.9 vs 34)

[Klown]

Seems complex.

[and into]

Seems complex.

Well it reduces down to a pretty easy piece of advice: In nearly all realistic scenarios, including the OP's, a ring of slaying with +dam is going to be better than ring of strength.

[Lasty]

PS. Yes, slaying is overestimated along with running, swiftness, necromutation, death's door etc

@OP, please ignore this off-topic comment. It is intensely misleading, but this thread isn't the place to discuss it.

[dck]

slaying, running, swiftness, necromutation, death's door

One of these things is not like the others.

[mopl]

slaying, running, swiftness, necromutation, death's door

One of these things is not like the others.

death's door, because it has 2 words...

[mrthehoople]

thanks for the advice everyone, I'm fairly new to this and still learning. I'm going with the +0/+6 ring of slaying and the +5 evasion with rings of protection to sub in if needed.

I appreciate that the slaying ring does more damage, but I wondered if ancillary bonuses from strength helped - i.e. bonus with Mi retaliatory headbutt.. encumbrance doesn't matter much to me I've got around 26 strength anyway (+2 mutation).

I was interested to hear that people didn't think much of the +4/+8 war axe of venom with str+1. I've trained shields a bit to use it with a large shield, alongside my sling (I can always use different ammo if facing fire resistant foes). But I have just been gifted a +2/+3 executioners axe (anti magic). Appreciate the damage from this is much better, but the to hit is terrible and I lose the shield bonus. Might be useful if and when I attempt elf (my only 2 rune game with a MiBe ended in elf 3 with me in the abyss - maybe I'll take 3 ranks of antimagic rather than 2 next time).

[Sar]

I have no idea how to-hit actually works in Crawl but I what I understand is that if you are using a two-hander and have enough skill to swing it at somewhat decent speed it pretty much does not matter.
Also anti-magic is not magic resistance (which prevents hostile enchantments like Banishment from affecting you):
http://crawl.develz.org/info/inline.php?q=anti-magic

[Sandman25]

Basically there is no need to worry about to-hit of executioner's axe (-6). If you have Str 21, Dex 21, Fighting 20, Axes 26 and the weapon enchantment is +5, to-hit is about
15 + 21 + d20 + d26 + d5 - 6, that's between 33 and 81, average 57. -6 is insignificant as you see.

[Lasty]

The reason people are saying the war axe of venom is unimpressive is severalfold. First, the war axe is not a particularly fast weapon, and its minimum delay is the same as the heaviest melee weapons (excluding the artifact dark maul). Overall, war axes are a fairly poor base weapon, requiring 16 Axes skill to hit 7 AUT delay, but only having 11 base damage to show for it. By contrast, a dire flail takes 14 M&F skill to hit 6 AUT delay and does 12 base damage, or a great sword takes 18 LB skill to hit 7 AUT delay and deals 16 base damage, or a halberd takes 16 Polearms to hit 7 AUT delay and deals 13 base damage. Granted, all these other weapons are two-handed, but there are also weapons like the scimitar, which takes 14 LB skill to hit 7 AUT delay and deals 12 damage.

Second, base damage gets multiplied by various things (weapon skill, strength, fighting skill), but slaying damage doesn't, so even high slaying damage isn't very exciting if it's on a weapon with low base damage -- unless that weapon also swings quickly, so that the slaying bonus is applied more often.

Third, venom is a brand that is best in the very early game, and best on very fast weapons. It's best in the early game because poison damage is constant throughout the game, but enemy health is much higher later, and so the amount of damage poison deals is increasingly poor relative to enemy hp. The amount of damage poison does depends on how often you hit with the weapon, so faster weapons are best for poison.

With moderate to high Axes skill, the executioner's axe will deal more damage over time than the war axe, and deal all of the damage immediately, and also have the powerful antimagic brand against spellcasting monsters, and all of that is without even enchanting it. Once the executioner's axe also has a high enchantment, it'll be even further ahead.

[and into]

I appreciate that the slaying ring does more damage, but I wondered if ancillary bonuses from strength helped - i.e. bonus with Mi retaliatory headbutt.. encumbrance doesn't matter much to me I've got around 26 strength anyway (+2 mutation).

I'm pretty sure strength damage bonus doesn't apply to auxiliary attacks but it doesn't really matter, as the strength bonus would be extremely small, because the base damage of those auxiliary attacks are low. Unless you are getting major improvements to EV from that strength ring, or desperately need the carrying capacity for some reason, the slaying ring is strictly better. Just put it on and enjoy, man.

(Slaying is additive, it just adds d(X) damage. The formula is somewhat complicated but strength damage bonus yields basically a % increase, so small base damage attacks get very bad returns. The FSIM above with a GSC of freezing is just about the most strength-favoring melee situation imaginable without getting into buffs or weird effects, and even then slaying is better.)

[duvessa]

Sandman25's calculation is completely wrong in multiple ways.
The actual accuracy will be 1d(15+floor(21/2)+1d20-1+1d26-1-6+5), which is between 0 and 68, average 23. If you exclude the base accuracy then it is between 0 and 74, average 26.

[Sandman25]

Sandman25's calculation is completely wrong in multiple ways.
The actual accuracy will be 1d(15+floor(21/2)+1d20-1+1d26-1-6+5), which is between 0 and 68, average 23. If you exclude the base accuracy then it is between 0 and 74, average 26.

Yes, I forgot to divide 21 by 2 and no roll for weapon enchantment. I am fine with other "errors", I am not going to write random2(X) or dX-1 and the final 1d(ToHit)-1 is obvious as everything is rolled in crawl.
My point still stands - that -6 penalty is neglectable, especially with final roll.

[duvessa]

You also got the effect of enchantment wrong; it doesn't have an extra roll like the skills. Usually I wouldn't be fine with an equation where 75% of the terms are wrong and an operation is missing, but different strokes for different folks, I suppose.

[Sandman25]

You also got the effect of enchantment wrong; it doesn't have an extra roll like the skills. Usually I wouldn't be fine with an equation where 75% of the terms are wrong and an operation is missing, but different strokes for different folks, I suppose.

Notice the words "is about" in my initial post. I wanted to show that -6 is neglectable when the result is about 25 + d46.

PS. Yes, I know d20 + d26 is not the same as d46.

[duvessa]

148% error is not "about"

[Sandman25]

148% error is not "about"

Where?

[duvessa]

It also occurs to me that I should correct this "everything is rolled in crawl" misinformation. Even in the context of accuracy it is wrong. Sure Blade, inaccuracy, invisibility, confusion, corona/halo, and umbra all add/subtract constant numbers from your final accuracy.

[Sandman25]

It also occurs to me that I should correct this "everything is rolled in crawl" misinformation. Even in the context of accuracy it is wrong. Sure Blade, inaccuracy, invisibility, confusion, corona/halo, and umbra all add/subtract constant numbers from your final accuracy.

It also occurs to me that I should elaborate that I meant player-monster interaction. To hit rolls, evasion rolls, shield block rolls, shield penetration rolls, stealth factor rolls, stealth detection rolls, damage rolls, AC rolls, MR rolls.
You don't say "this ring adds d5 to melee damage", you say "+5 ring of slaying", do you?

PS. It could be d5-1, I don't care.

[duvessa]

(it doesn't add either of those, it adds 5 to the damage roll which is completely different from adding d5 or d6-1 to the final damage)

(p.s. sorry about your thread)

[daggaz]

To get the thread back ontopic..

Waraxes are nice for two simple reasons: They are better than hand axes and they require less skill than a battle axe (or broad axe, which seem to be pretty rare so whatever). But they are just a stop on the road as you get your axe skill up. You should be picking up the next biggest axe as soon as you find one, and you should be using it as soon as your skill level lets you swing it at a comfortable rate. In this vein, a waraxe can be a better choice than an early battle axe, as you will swing it faster. A D:2 battleaxe can often get you killed if you use it immediately with low axe skill.

Most axe-wielding games for me, I'll find a waraxe after a few levels, run with that a bit, and then find a battle axe. If I dont find a battle axe or at least a good runed (any lesser) axe by the time I find lair entrance, I will often dip the first level or two of Orc to look for one. Eventually I'll find or receive an executioners axe, and then I will dump my enchant scrolls on it and go to town.

[and into]

A D:2 battleaxe can often get you killed if you use it immediately with low axe skill.

I used to think this myself but that's because I had been misinformed and then filtered all of my own experiences and conclusions through that. Seriously—start a game offline as a human gladiator, choose hand ax, then type

&Yo)battleax

and then hit enter/return twice. Pick up your 0/0 Battleax, equip it, and see how things go. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised.

Yes there is a chance for enemies to hit you twice, you do need to be aware of that until your ax skill gets higher, but you also kill things a lot faster, even at zero (or in this case, 3.0) skill. And it only gets better (for the battleax) from there.

[Sandman25]

Str 21, Dex 21, Fighting 20, Axe 26.

vs Orb of Fire

  Code:

a - a +5,+0 orcish hand axe (weapon)
           AvHitDam | MaxDam | Accuracy | AvDam | AvTime | AvSpeed | AvEffDam
Attacking:      2.2 |     29 |      63% |   1.4 |    60  |  1.67 |      2.4
Defending:      0.0 |      0 |       0% |   0.0 |    66  |  1.52 |      0.0
e - a +5,+0 executioner's axe (weapon)
           AvHitDam | MaxDam | Accuracy | AvDam | AvTime | AvSpeed | AvEffDam
Attacking:     13.0 |     73 |      56% |   7.3 |    70  |  1.43 |     10.5
Defending:      0.0 |      0 |       0% |   0.0 |    66  |  1.52 |      0.0


vs Yak

  Code:

a - a +5,+0 orcish hand axe (weapon)
           AvHitDam | MaxDam | Accuracy | AvDam | AvTime | AvSpeed | AvEffDam
Attacking:      5.8 |     28 |      84% |   4.9 |    60  |  1.67 |      8.1
Defending:      9.4 |     18 |      63% |   6.0 |   100  |  1.00 |      6.0
e - a +5,+0 executioner's axe (weapon)
           AvHitDam | MaxDam | Accuracy | AvDam | AvTime | AvSpeed | AvEffDam
Attacking:     19.0 |     75 |      82% |  15.6 |    70  |  1.43 |     22.3
Defending:      9.5 |     18 |      61% |   5.8 |   100  |  1.00 |      5.8


[mrthehoople]

Again thanks for all of the help.

I do understand that executioners axe will do more damage than war axe, but is there no compensation in being able to use a large shield?

[Sandman25]

I do understand that executioners axe will do more damage than war axe, but is there no compensation in being able to use a large shield?

Large shield is totally fine in 3-rune game, one of my DDFi used large shield after finding hand axe of pain early. Berserker does not have much to train so you can afford training shields all the way to 25. At least shield teaches players to fight in corridors unlike vampiric executioner's axe.

[daggaz]

My comments about early battle axes were from experience, not from anything I read or deduced.

Yes, you do more damage in a hit, but you do it awfully slowly if your skill is crap. This can be especially problematic if you are facing multiple enemies (axe users may be tempted to do this instead of using 1-on-1 tactics) or fast enemies. A miss or two, which is common if you have a low skill, can easily cost you the battle. These problems are compounded if the player is new and doesnt have a good feel for the way crawl handles action-turns. Hence my advice, seeing as how this is a forum full of new players asking questions.

To clarify, you dont need to hit 20 (min delay) before you use the battle axe, it will work just fine before that, but you should be very careful if your skill is 5. Okawaru's skill bonus is also perfect for axe users, as you can easily get to min delay for fights were you absolute must be at top form, for very little cost.

And finally: you are far more likely to find a war axe before you find any other kind of axe. Pick it up and use it until you can replace it. That should be a nobrainer.