Weapon choice

[Amnesiac]

I have a +1 Qb of freezing and a +5 SB of electrocution. I also have Dam+4 and 3 EWII. What should I use? I have 12 levels in SBs.

[mopl]

You reached the min dealy for both weapons (0.3 for QB, 0.5 for SB)
Elec is a very good brand, freezing is not bad since it's almost universal, but damage added is proportional to normal damage dealt...

I would use the fastest one : the qBlade.

[Bloax]

Unless you're fighting rElec enemies the shortsword would likely serve you better, especially against targets with substantial AC.

[Amnesiac]

Now that I think about it - yes, AC is to be taken into consideration. I was just trying to imagine what damage per turn I would do.

[zogre]

The DCSS Weapon Comparison spreadsheet (viewtopic.php?f=5&t=359) can tell you exactly what you're asking.

[daggaz]

Definitely most definitely boost the QB. Right now its underpowered compared to the SB, but in (short) time it will vastly out perform the other. Freezing is a fine brand, especially if you are a sneaky stabby type as electrocution makes a lot of noise now, if Im not mistaken. As you get more sources of slaying, the QB will just pull further and further ahead. The speed aspect is just superior for this.

You can just hang on to the SB for heavily armored foes and slimes for now.

[Siegurt]

as electrocution makes a lot of noise now, if Im not mistaken

Brand noise is still non-existent due to an oversight in the code.
https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=7526

[Amnesiac]

According to the spreadsheet, for my character the SB is better than the Qb against any enemy with AC above 5 that doesn't have rElec. (btw, does dam+ have the same effect as weapon enchantment?)

[Bloax]

Slaying is weapon enchantment (which also works on other things).
At some ancient point in time it wasn't, but that was changed a long time ago.

[Amnesiac]

I asked because I just entered +8 and +9 enchantment, instead of looking where I should put dam+4.

Anyway, if what this spreadsheet says is true, then it's pretty awesome that I can know what weapons do.

[duvessa]

Slaying is weapon enchantment (which also works on other things).

note: this is only true for melee weapons

[Amnesiac]

Wait a minute... It can't really be 3.6 damage per turn even against a skeletal warrior. Does this spreadsheet always roll the maximum AC?

[crate]

You should probably just use fsim. There are a few things it doesn't account for (most notably venom weapons) but the main benefit is the way fsim calculates damage is by actually taking your character and attacking the enemy. This is not likely to have significant bugs. Judging from the date of the weapon spreadsheet post, it is certainly less accurate.

[Magipi]

You should probably just use fsim. There are a few things it doesn't account for (most notably venom weapons) but the main benefit is the way fsim calculates damage is by actually taking your character and attacking the enemy. This is not likely to have significant bugs. Judging from the date of the weapon spreadsheet post, it is certainly less accurate.

I'm a bit afraid to ask, but: what is fsim and where is it?

[Sar]

A fight simulator in wizmode, accessible with &f and &F.

[Magipi]

A fight simulator in wizmode, accessible with &f and &F.

Thanks, but I think testing in wizmode is way beyond the limits of average players.

[Tedronai]

Thanks, but I think testing in wizmode is way beyond the limits of average players.

Don't be average then

[Amnesiac]

Yeah, I don't even bother getting into fsim. I just hit a monster with a weapon for a few turns and see if it's any good. I don't even think I've ever used fsim.

[Sar]

Well, not really! You can access it easily in offline builds, just press & and confirm. This will permanently affect your character, so make a new one or backup the save file of an existing character you want to run tests with. You can adjust your skills to any level, create different weapons and armours, etc. Just press ? for a list of commands.

[Sandman25]

Yeah, I don't even bother getting into fsim. I just hit a monster with a weapon for a few turns and see if it's any good. I don't even think I've ever used fsim.

You are Ds with Str 10 and Dex 14, you found +7,+8 crossbow "Uddoujul" {velocity, rElec rF+} in Lair. Will you train Crossbow skill?
I bet you will say "yes" but fsim shows it is a bad idea because even with Crossbows 27 it will take more that 1 turn per attack.

[DracheReborn]

Yeah, I don't even bother getting into fsim. I just hit a monster with a weapon for a few turns and see if it's any good. I don't even think I've ever used fsim.

You are Ds with Str 10 and Dex 14, you found +7,+8 crossbow "Uddoujul" {velocity, rElec rF+} in Lair. Will you train Crossbow skill?
I bet you will say "yes" but fsim shows it is a bad idea because even with Crossbows 27 it will take more that 1 turn per attack.

Um what? That's a heck of a xbow that you can use all game.

Why would it take more than 1 turn per attack? Do you have a shield on?

[Lasty]

You are Ds with Str 10 and Dex 14, you found +7,+8 crossbow "Uddoujul" {velocity, rElec rF+} in Lair. Will you train Crossbow skill?
I bet you will say "yes" but fsim shows it is a bad idea because even with Crossbows 27 it will take more that 1 turn per attack.

I would certainly consider it. Your premise that it's a bad idea because each attack will take more than 10 AUT is faulty.

Edit: Adding reasoning.

First, that weapon would be decent in many situations even untrained, regardless of delay. Second, not every character who would make use of the weapon would want to train it to 27 in any case. Third, by the time you go from 0 Crossbows to 27, you'll have several chances to adjust your strength.

[Amnesiac]

I would only consider elec xbow, probably. I acquired one on my weak stabber, but it was awesome, even though it took 1.2 to fire at like 10+ xbows.

[Sandman25]

Notice I didn't ask if you would use that crossbow. Of course I use it, killing Orc Sorcerer with 2 bolts is fun (I have 0 crossbows skill and don't use Heroism) but its AvEffDamage is not that high.
You would need 20 Str to get that Crossbow to min delay so Str matters for Crossbows too.

  Code:

Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.14-a0-2475-gac10382
Attack: Demonspawn Transmuter vs. yak (4000 rounds) (2014/02/11/23:57:46)
Demonspawn Transmuter: XL 1   Str 10   Int 14   Dex 17
Wielding: +7,+8 crossbow of velocity with 30 bolts of frost, Skill: Crossbows
yak: HD 7   AC 4   EV 7
 Crossbows | AvHitDam | MaxDam | Accuracy | AvDam | AvTime | AvSpeed | AvEffDam
         0 |     12.1 |     40 |      95% |  11.6 |   150  |  0.67 |      7.7
         1 |     12.6 |     39 |      94% |  11.9 |   149  |  0.67 |      8.0
         2 |     12.7 |     40 |      95% |  12.1 |   147  |  0.68 |      8.2
         3 |     13.1 |     41 |      95% |  12.5 |   145  |  0.69 |      8.6
         4 |     13.9 |     41 |      96% |  13.3 |   143  |  0.70 |      9.3
         5 |     14.3 |     42 |      95% |  13.6 |   141  |  0.71 |      9.6
         6 |     14.5 |     43 |      96% |  13.9 |   140  |  0.71 |      9.9
         7 |     14.8 |     48 |      96% |  14.2 |   138  |  0.72 |     10.3
         8 |     15.3 |     48 |      95% |  14.7 |   136  |  0.73 |     10.8
         9 |     16.0 |     47 |      96% |  15.4 |   134  |  0.75 |     11.5
        10 |     16.2 |     48 |      96% |  15.6 |   132  |  0.76 |     11.8
        11 |     16.2 |     57 |      96% |  15.6 |   130  |  0.77 |     12.0
        12 |     16.9 |     58 |      97% |  16.4 |   129  |  0.78 |     12.7
        13 |     17.0 |     50 |      96% |  16.3 |   127  |  0.79 |     12.8
        14 |     17.1 |     52 |      96% |  16.5 |   125  |  0.80 |     13.2
        15 |     17.2 |     52 |      96% |  16.6 |   123  |  0.81 |     13.5
        16 |     17.7 |     51 |      96% |  17.2 |   121  |  0.83 |     14.2
        17 |     18.0 |     56 |      96% |  17.4 |   119  |  0.84 |     14.6
        18 |     18.0 |     56 |      97% |  17.5 |   118  |  0.85 |     14.8
        19 |     18.2 |     55 |      96% |  17.6 |   116  |  0.86 |     15.2
        20 |     18.6 |     64 |      97% |  18.1 |   114  |  0.88 |     15.9
        21 |     18.8 |     58 |      97% |  18.2 |   112  |  0.89 |     16.3
        22 |     19.3 |     62 |      97% |  18.7 |   110  |  0.91 |     17.0
        23 |     19.2 |     63 |      96% |  18.6 |   109  |  0.92 |     17.1
        24 |     19.2 |     64 |      97% |  18.7 |   107  |  0.93 |     17.5
        25 |     19.9 |     64 |      97% |  19.4 |   105  |  0.95 |     18.5
        26 |     19.7 |     70 |      97% |  19.2 |   103  |  0.97 |     18.6
        27 |     20.0 |     66 |      97% |  19.6 |   101  |  0.99 |     19.4
-----------------------------------


[crate]

I would only consider elec xbow, probably. I acquired one on my weak stabber, but it was awesome, even though it took 1.2 to fire at like 10+ xbows.

Elec in practice is about the same goodness as velocity, or maybe worse (since you can't stack it with elemental ammo).

If I found a +7,+8 xbow of velocity and was going to use it, I would train xbow skill.

[Sandman25]

If I found a +7,+8 xbow of velocity and was going to use it, I would train xbow skill.

Obviously the xbow cannot be end game weapon (I have a GrBe with a similar crossbow but it is at min delay despite Crossbow skill only 20 and even it does not kill Draconians fast enough) so I use it until I branch into conjurations. So I believe "use it" does not always lead to "train for it".

PS. I still remember the following:
"everyone in this topic needs to do more 0 weapon skill melee" (c) crate

[crate]

Right, I personally just don't use ranged weapons at 0 skill since I don't like doing so. Using that xbow at 0 skill is fine, but not something I do.

+8 xbow of velocity is fine as an "end-game" weapon. It's basically as good a crossbow as you can get.

[Sandman25]

+8 xbow of velocity is fine as an "end-game" weapon. It's basically as good a crossbow as you can get.

Right, I should have been more specific. It is not end-game weapon for XL 15 character with Str 10 who found it. That's why fsim was very useful in this case.

[TheDefiniteArticle]

it is a bad idea because even with Crossbows 27 it will take more that 1 turn per attack.

So what?

Obviously the xbow cannot be end game weapon

Of course it can, I have several wins with worse weapons. A vorpal lajatang, for example, performs similarly, except the xbow has full-LOS attack range, and I only used plain bolts in fsim.

[Sandman25]

it is a bad idea because even with Crossbows 27 it will take more that 1 turn per attack.

So what?

Obviously the xbow cannot be end game weapon

Of course it can, I have several wins with worse weapons. A vorpal lajatang, for example, performs similarly, except the xbow has full-LOS attack range, and I only used plain bolts in fsim.

Vorpal lajatang requires skill 14 to attack at min delay (0.7)

  Code:

Crossbows | AvHitDam | MaxDam | Accuracy | AvDam | AvTime | AvSpeed | AvEffDam
       14 |     17.1 |     52 |      96% |  16.5 |   125  |  0.80 |     13.2

Would you use that as your main weapon? This is with elemental bolts, divide by 1.4 for usual bolts (below 10 AvEffDam). I suspect even Slings can be better, at least it could be at about min delay at skill 14.

[Lasty]

13.2 damage, or about the same as a +8/+7 vorpal QB with no extra slaying and 22 skill, according to the other thread. Doing as much damage as that at 14 skill over full LOS is perfectly acceptable at XL 15.

[Sandman25]

13.2 damage, or about the same as a +8/+7 vorpal QB with no extra slaying and 22 skill, according to the other thread. Doing as much damage as that at 14 skill over full LOS is perfectly acceptable at XL 15.

Yes, it is a legendary weapon because it is extremely superior to Darts at 27 Throwing
14 levels in Conjurations would be much better IMHO, especially with Augmentation the character has.

[Lasty]

13.2 damage, or about the same as a +8/+7 vorpal QB with no extra slaying and 22 skill, according to the other thread. Doing as much damage as that at 14 skill over full LOS is perfectly acceptable at XL 15.

Yes, it is a legendary weapon because it is extremely superior to Darts at 27 Throwing
14 levels in Conjurations would be much better IMHO, especially with Augmentation the character has.

Neither the sarcasm nor the misrepresentation of my comments add much here. I said it would be acceptable, not legendary.

Since the OP didn't post a char dump, why are you saying that this character has augmentation? Since the crossbow is purely hypothetical, why are you asking about it in context of a specific but unmentioned character? Perhaps 14 Conjurations would be better if the character has Augmentation and a good book. Perhaps the character should use the +25/+25 QB of electrocution instead.

Let me say this as clearly as possible to avoid further misunderstanding: the weapon you mention in your hypothetical is a good weapon, even on a character with low strength. Many such characters who stumble over it would find a use for it. Others would not. Some characters would profit from training Crossbows using it. Others would not. No evidence you've given bears up the claim that you should not train Crossbows while using this weapon.

[Sandman25]

Neither the sarcasm nor the misrepresentation of my comments add much here. I said it would be acceptable, not legendary.

Since the OP didn't post a char dump, why are you saying that this character has augmentation? Since the crossbow is purely hypothetical, why are you asking about it in context of a specific but unmentioned character? Perhaps 14 Conjurations would be better if the character has Augmentation and a good book. Perhaps the character should use the +25/+25 QB of electrocution instead.

Let me say this as clearly as possible to avoid further misunderstanding: the weapon you mention in your hypothetical is a good weapon, even on a character with low strength. Many such characters who stumble over it would find a use for it. Others would not. Some characters would profit from training Crossbows using it. Others would not. No evidence you've given bears up the claim that you should not train Crossbows while using this weapon.

Sorry, I was sarcastic because training QBlades to 22 is .. sub-optimal, mildly speaking, so I thought you were joking too.
This weapon has nothing to do with OP, I brought it up from my current game trying to show to Amnesiac that fsim can be very useful sometimes. Did you pay close attention to the fsim table I posted? Do you think it's worth it to train Crossbow to skill level 14 to increase AvEffDamage from 7.7 to 13.2 with bolts of frost provided it will never be an end-game weapon? fsim helped me to realize it is not a good idea to train Crossbows for my character and IMHO for about 90% other characters also (perhaps SpBe could be an exception because Longbows would be better but Sp cannot use them).

[Amnesiac]

Point is taken. This is interesting. But I still can't bring myself to do fsim instead of just playing and checking weapons in "real" battle This thread I started because it's somewhat unclear what to use if you forget to consider the AC (there are also some other points, though. Like resistances and the speed of stabbing), so I wanted to see if someone has some clear vision of the situation.

[Lasty]

Sorry, I was sarcastic because training QBlades to 22 is .. sub-optimal, mildly speaking, so I thought you were joking too.
This weapon has nothing to do with OP, I brought it up from my current game trying to show to Amnesiac that fsim can be very useful sometimes. Did you pay close attention to the fsim table I posted? Do you think it's worth it to train Crossbow to skill level 14 to increase AvEffDamage from 7.7 to 13.2 with bolts of frost provided it will never be an end-game weapon? fsim helped me to realize it is not a good idea to train Crossbows for my character and IMHO for about 90% other characters also (perhaps SpBe could be an exception because Longbows would be better but Sp cannot use them).

Fair enough, I didn't make my point about the QB clear. The point I was trying to make was that that QB is a fine end game weapon at 8 skill, but it doesn't hit the average damage you cited until you train to a completely unnecessary 22 skill; given that, the fact that this crossbow hits that damage at 14 skill seems fine.

More broadly, I still reject the premise that it's not worth training crossbows to some value (arbitrarily 14) simply because that won't allow the weapon to easily clear Zot:5 given the characters' stats at level 15. I reject it for the following reasons:

* training a weapon to 14 isn't that big of an investment over the course of the game, meaning that the weapon doesn't necessarily have to be your one end-game weapon.
* ranged weapons like crossbows are particularly suited to an auxiliary role, meaning that they're useful even if they aren't your main damage method.
* even if this weapon isn't very effective in Zot, it might well be very effective right now for this character.
* The fsim shows the effects of training this skill without changing any other aspect of this character. If this character wanted to make better use of this crossbow, it could get strength on level-ups or use +str equipment.

As for the particular character you're thinking of, maybe this crossbow isn't the right choice, but that depends sharply on a lot of contextual information which you didn't provide.

I agree with your general point that fsim can be useful and informative and help predict the outcome of certain choices. I have never felt a need to use it, because like others in the thread I have no trouble using a combination of understanding general principles of crawl attack mechanics and experiential data to make reasonable estimates. I'm sure I don't always make the best possible choice, but I'm also sure that I'm not that far off of the best choice on average.

[Sandman25]

Lasty,

I am still using the Crossbow on my character (my plans to hybridize into conjurations got broken by Wild Magic 2 mutation) but I am not going to train Crossbows despite I have the following currently:

  Code:

Action                   |  1- 3 |  4- 6 |  7- 9 | 10-12 | 13-15 | 16-18 || total
-------------------------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------++-------
Melee: Unarmed           |   160 |   297 |   523 |  1262 |  1608 |  1521 ||  5371
 Fire: Sling             |       |       |    42 |    81 |    11 |       ||   134
       Crossbow          |       |       |       |    26 |   509 |   263 ||   798
       Blowgun           |       |       |       |       |    13 |    12 ||    25

The reason is below:

  Code:

Crossbows | AvHitDam | MaxDam | Accuracy | AvDam | AvTime | AvSpeed | AvEffDam
         0 |     12.1 |     40 |      95% |  11.6 |   150  |  0.67 |      7.7
        14 |     17.1 |     52 |      96% |  16.5 |   125  |  0.80 |     13.2

I am not going to spend that much XP to improve accuracy by 1%, attack time by 16% (still far more than 1 turn per attack), max damage by 12, AvHitDam by 5 and AvEffDam by 5.5. That extra damage is almost useless. If using vanilla bolts instead of ones of frost, those AvEffDam values will be below 5 and 10 correspondingly.

Edit. Here is my char viewtopic.php?f=12&t=10933

[Siegurt]

Note that 5.5 damage is actually a fairly large margin, if you get 5 shots from LOS, that's going from 38.5 to 66 damage, which is enough to kill a lot of critters (Not quite enough to kill most stone giants, but enough to kill a hill giant, or tormentor, and reduces the number of shots it takes to kill a neqoxec.)

Not to say that it's 100% worth training 14 crossbows for, but I think it's a reasonable exchange to consider.

[Sandman25]

When doing those fsim simulations I also did tests for UC, this is why I am not that impressed by 13.2 AvEffDamage from frost bolts.

  Code:

Attack: Demonspawn Transmuter vs. yaktaur (4000 rounds) (2014/02/11/23:44:45)
Demonspawn Transmuter: XL 1   Str 10   Int 14   Dex 14
Unarmed, Skill: Unarmed Combat
yaktaur: HD 8   AC 4   EV 4

Unarmed Co | AvHitDam | MaxDam | Accuracy | AvDam | AvTime | AvSpeed | AvEffDam
         0 |      0.5 |      4 |      87% |   0.4 |   100  |  1.00 |      0.4
         1 |      0.9 |      7 |      85% |   0.8 |    98  |  1.02 |      0.8
         2 |      1.3 |      9 |      86% |   1.1 |    96  |  1.04 |      1.2
         3 |      2.0 |     11 |      86% |   1.7 |    94  |  1.06 |      1.8
         4 |      2.5 |     12 |      86% |   2.2 |    93  |  1.08 |      2.4
         5 |      3.2 |     20 |      86% |   2.8 |    91  |  1.10 |      3.0
         6 |      3.9 |     20 |      87% |   3.4 |    89  |  1.13 |      3.8
         7 |      4.4 |     20 |      86% |   3.8 |    87  |  1.15 |      4.4
         8 |      5.2 |     21 |      87% |   4.5 |    85  |  1.17 |      5.3
         9 |      5.9 |     25 |      87% |   5.2 |    83  |  1.20 |      6.3
        10 |      6.5 |     27 |      87% |   5.7 |    81  |  1.23 |      7.0
        11 |      7.2 |     32 |      87% |   6.3 |    80  |  1.26 |      7.9
        12 |      7.8 |     31 |      87% |   6.8 |    78  |  1.29 |      8.7
        13 |      8.8 |     33 |      87% |   7.6 |    76  |  1.32 |     10.0
        14 |      9.4 |     34 |      87% |   8.2 |    74  |  1.35 |     11.1
        15 |     10.3 |     39 |      87% |   9.0 |    72  |  1.38 |     12.5
        16 |     10.8 |     38 |      87% |   9.5 |    70  |  1.42 |     13.6
        17 |     11.7 |     42 |      88% |  10.4 |    68  |  1.46 |     15.2
        18 |     12.2 |     46 |      87% |  10.8 |    67  |  1.50 |     16.1
        19 |     12.8 |     45 |      87% |  11.3 |    65  |  1.54 |     17.3
        20 |     14.0 |     50 |      88% |  12.4 |    63  |  1.59 |     19.7
        21 |     14.6 |     49 |      87% |  12.9 |    61  |  1.64 |     21.1
        22 |     15.2 |     54 |      87% |  13.4 |    59  |  1.69 |     22.6
        23 |     16.0 |     59 |      87% |  14.0 |    57  |  1.74 |     24.6
        24 |     17.0 |     64 |      88% |  15.1 |    55  |  1.80 |     27.4
        25 |     17.5 |     62 |      88% |  15.5 |    54  |  1.86 |     28.8
        26 |     18.5 |     63 |      87% |  16.2 |    52  |  1.93 |     31.1
        27 |     18.7 |     59 |      89% |  16.7 |    50  |  2.00 |     33.3


[Siegurt]

When doing those fsim simulations I also did tests for UC, this is why I am not that impressed by 13.2 AvEffDamage from frost bolts.

  Code:

Attack: Demonspawn Transmuter vs. yaktaur (4000 rounds) (2014/02/11/23:44:45)
Demonspawn Transmuter: XL 1   Str 10   Int 14   Dex 14
Unarmed, Skill: Unarmed Combat
yaktaur: HD 8   AC 4   EV 4

Unarmed Co | AvHitDam | MaxDam | Accuracy | AvDam | AvTime | AvSpeed | AvEffDam
         0 |      0.5 |      4 |      87% |   0.4 |   100  |  1.00 |      0.4
         1 |      0.9 |      7 |      85% |   0.8 |    98  |  1.02 |      0.8
         2 |      1.3 |      9 |      86% |   1.1 |    96  |  1.04 |      1.2
         3 |      2.0 |     11 |      86% |   1.7 |    94  |  1.06 |      1.8
         4 |      2.5 |     12 |      86% |   2.2 |    93  |  1.08 |      2.4
         5 |      3.2 |     20 |      86% |   2.8 |    91  |  1.10 |      3.0
         6 |      3.9 |     20 |      87% |   3.4 |    89  |  1.13 |      3.8
         7 |      4.4 |     20 |      86% |   3.8 |    87  |  1.15 |      4.4
         8 |      5.2 |     21 |      87% |   4.5 |    85  |  1.17 |      5.3
         9 |      5.9 |     25 |      87% |   5.2 |    83  |  1.20 |      6.3
        10 |      6.5 |     27 |      87% |   5.7 |    81  |  1.23 |      7.0
        11 |      7.2 |     32 |      87% |   6.3 |    80  |  1.26 |      7.9
        12 |      7.8 |     31 |      87% |   6.8 |    78  |  1.29 |      8.7
        13 |      8.8 |     33 |      87% |   7.6 |    76  |  1.32 |     10.0
        14 |      9.4 |     34 |      87% |   8.2 |    74  |  1.35 |     11.1
        15 |     10.3 |     39 |      87% |   9.0 |    72  |  1.38 |     12.5
        16 |     10.8 |     38 |      87% |   9.5 |    70  |  1.42 |     13.6
        17 |     11.7 |     42 |      88% |  10.4 |    68  |  1.46 |     15.2
        18 |     12.2 |     46 |      87% |  10.8 |    67  |  1.50 |     16.1
        19 |     12.8 |     45 |      87% |  11.3 |    65  |  1.54 |     17.3
        20 |     14.0 |     50 |      88% |  12.4 |    63  |  1.59 |     19.7
        21 |     14.6 |     49 |      87% |  12.9 |    61  |  1.64 |     21.1
        22 |     15.2 |     54 |      87% |  13.4 |    59  |  1.69 |     22.6
        23 |     16.0 |     59 |      87% |  14.0 |    57  |  1.74 |     24.6
        24 |     17.0 |     64 |      88% |  15.1 |    55  |  1.80 |     27.4
        25 |     17.5 |     62 |      88% |  15.5 |    54  |  1.86 |     28.8
        26 |     18.5 |     63 |      87% |  16.2 |    52  |  1.93 |     31.1
        27 |     18.7 |     59 |      89% |  16.7 |    50  |  2.00 |     33.3


But.... Unarmed doesn't pass that 13.2 mark until 16 skill?? Are you saying you're not impressed with the crossbow because it's better than Unarmed combat until 15 skill? (Not to mention the fact that it's ranged...)

I'm genuinely confused how comparing it to unarmed combat would make you not impressed by it..

[Sandman25]

But.... Unarmed doesn't pass that 13.2 mark until 16 skill?? Are you saying you're not impressed with the crossbow because it's better than Unarmed combat until 15 skill? (Not to mention the fact that it's ranged...)

I'm genuinely confused how comparing it to unarmed combat would make you not impressed by it..

That was with bolts of frost, with plain bolts the crossbow is much worse.

13849 | Lair:2 | Reached skill level 10 in Unarmed Combat
17548 | Lair:6 | Got an ancient crossbow
17549 | Lair:6 | Identified the +7,+8 crossbow "Uddoujul" {velocity, rElec rF+} (You found it on level 6 of the Lair of Beasts)

This is why I compared it with UC.

Edit. I cannot run simulation now but with plain bolts it should be something like this

  Code:

Crossbows | AvHitDam | MaxDam | Accuracy | AvDam | AvTime | AvSpeed | AvEffDam
         0 |     8.6 |     28 |      95% |  8.2 |   150  |  0.67 |      5.5
        14 |     12.2 |     37 |      96% |  11.7 |   125  |  0.80 |     9.4

[Lasty]

So, with plain bolts and 14 skill and no extra strength it's as good as UC with 12-13 skill, but also ranged, and with the option of switching to better bolts against dangerous enemies, and also with the bonus of doing more damage at low levels than UC.

The data you're giving makes it look more and more like getting some skill with this crossbow is a good choice even on a low-strength character who chooses not to gain more strength.

[Sandman25]

So, with plain bolts and 14 skill and no extra strength it's as good as UC with 12-13 skill, but also ranged, and with the option of switching to better bolts against dangerous enemies, and also with the bonus of doing more damage at low levels than UC.

The data you're giving makes it look more and more like getting some skill with this crossbow is a good choice even on a low-strength character who chooses not to gain more strength.

Yes, I slightly changed my mind after this discussion. I have two main problems with this weapon:
1) It is not game end weapon.
I have another game in progress on another server: http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/Sandm ... dman25.txt
It is GrBe with Str 26 and +8 crossbow of velocity at min delay. It takes 5-6 attacks to kill a Yellow Draconian (maybe I should not fight them at all).
2) It gives monsters double attacks.
I lost 40+ HP to a single Stone Golem, I don't want to lose 80+ HP without a chance to react (not that I am going to have a duel with Stone Giants of course).
Perhaps I should train at least some Crossbows (5 would be relatively cheap now) because of Wild Magic 2 but I just can't stand it, I have another KoAm of Oka with Crossbows offline in progress, having 3 characters with Crossbows simultaneously is too much IMHO

[and into]

I am not going to spend that much XP to improve accuracy by 1%, attack time by 16% (still far more than 1 turn per attack), max damage by 12, AvHitDam by 5 and AvEffDam by 5.5. That extra damage is almost useless. If using vanilla bolts instead of ones of frost, those AvEffDam values will be below 5 and 10 correspondingly.

Edit. Here is my char viewtopic.php?f=12&t=10933

Well the 1% improvement in accuracy is against a low-EV opponent. And a difference in max damage of 12 and AED of 5.5 is very considerable, especially for a ranged weapon that can *potentially* be fired with greater frequency than spells. Plus bolts of penetration and steel bolts are things that exist in the game and stack with velocity. (Though I think steel was nerfed at some point in last few versions and, though still good, is not as great as it was.)

Now, the character in question has mediocre strength, so yes that puts a drag on the crossbow relative to other potential investments. Plus your guy is using UC (experience-heavy investment), so not wanting to put a decent amount of exp. into a supplemental attack (at least not until later in the game) is a reasonable decision. With UC, you aren't going to be using very heavy armor usually, so you won't have spell penalty—so maybe some damaging spells look a bit better on this particular character, though that also depends on what spells you have available obviously.

Now, if you *continue* using that crossbow fairly often, and you seem to be using it, there probably will come to be a point at which putting experience into it is worthwhile, due to how cheaply and easily getting a few levels in xbows would be. (But who knows, maybe by that point you'll have some strong elemental evocables and a couple of good rods, and so you decide to raise evocations and use your xbow a lot less.)

The point is that any of the above decisions should be based on an all-around analysis of the character. Not training xbows seems reasonable here, but that has to do with a lot of other factors than some read out of average damage.

Fsim is a great tool, but as with all statistical information one should be careful not to reify it. Fsim can tell you what the best choice for your character is only in the absolute simplest of comparisons; in all other cases, it will at best provide some useful data that might help you make better decisions.

[Sandman25]

And here we go again
Main problem with that crossbow is too slow attack for Str 10 character, having to train Crossbows to 27 to reach 1 turn attack speed is awful. Better I would learn Tornado: I have a book with it and Air aptitude is the same -1 as Crossbows aptitude