Lots of Questions From a Returning Player

[Cheetah]

Hi guys. I am a returning player who has been experimenting with some of the trunk builds recently. Love all the new features, feels like quite a jump from 0.8! Been playing using the online client for a while now and someone suggested I should try a Felid since I found the game so easy. Well I've been doing Felid runs for around 3 weeks now and I feel like I'm missing something. I can get up to 2/3 runes pretty easily but then I just... die whenever I go elsewhere. So I have a few questions because I haven't read up on everything new yet and I have this insatiable urge to win with this really gimped class.

1) Had a good run recently, but I'm wondering just how useful Stealth is. I know that Felids get a bonus to this but even though stabbing has been merged with Stealth it doesn't seem very useful past the lair even at high levels. (Had 16 stealth and dragon form so I didn't make any footsteps and they'd still wake up way before I strolled up to them for a stab) Is it even worth training Stealth above 5 for the early game stabs and trap spots? Noticed there's not actually many traps around these days.

2) Jump Attacks with Felid, they don't appear to stab? Is this a bug?

3) Quaffing a potion of beneficial mutation while having beastly appendage running (As Felid you only get horns) almost always results in horns growing and then disappearing when spell expires. Is this a bug?

4) Do Felid winners rely mostly on mutation gambles and if so, is early Jiyva a good idea as opposed to Sif Muna for the early books/MP restores?

5) Most runs I've been tempted to go into conjurations to hybrid, (usually from getting Fireball book) Is it worth forsaking melee skills to do this and can it be effective in the later game?

6) Noticed that some runs I'd either get scrolls of Acquirement of Experience potions as early as D2, is this bug? It seems really weird. I even have screenshots of how often this occurs and no they're not from Ossury or Sewer, they're just sitting there on the ground, not even in vaults.

7) What's the best way to bulk up a Felid's AC? I get murdered by anything even with 30+ evade by the time I get to the Vaults. Only methods I know of is the ice spell, stoneskin, rings of protection and form changes. (which kills my evade instead) How can I deal with the 40% hp reduction?

8) Is Summonings worth going into as Felid? Any run I train Summonings up to 10 I die horribly.

9) What's the best way to kill early 8 headed hydras? I know ignite poison is fantastic in the lair but I rarely get it when I run. Ice form doesn't appear to work and Dragons create new heads on the hydras. Felids have no way to even use ranged so how can I even deal with these apart from kiting them everywhere and hoping I don't explore into a dead end?

10) How do I deal with merfolk javelineers? (The ones that escort the unique who always seems to appear in Shoals) They can 2 shot me no matter what I do. Even with Repel Missiles up and 10 dodge they hit very often.

11) What should I wish for as a Felid Transmuter when I find acquirement? I usually go for books in the hopes I can get a usable manual but usually it gives me something like an Armour manual which I can't even use.

12) Do ANY Felid equippables other than jewellery exist? I noticed Naga and Centaurs can get barding but I have noticed nothing at all for Felid? Why can't felids wear at least a hat?

13) I've had this very unfair Snake Pit end 3 times now. How can I even deal with these? You can step into the teleport traps but it throws you into the dozens of other greater nagas and guardian serpents that scattered elsewhere on the level. It seems impossible without dying once or twice, even if you have a good spell selection.



14) Is earth magic even worth going into? Noticed Felids have -2 Apt with Earth Magic yet it's absolutely essential to even cast Statue Form at a reasonable level.

15) Does Unarmed Combat even affect combat speed? I don't really notice any difference here. The wiki says that it can potentially lead to some of the highest damage potential in the game, but I've had 15 Unarmed Combat and have hardly noticed any difference.

16) Is invisibility based on stealth at all and why can creatures still spot me instantly even though I have very low magic contamination?

[tasonir]

That's a lot of questions. I'll probably miss some, but this should cover most of it.

I've won one Fe, and it was a FeMo of Trog. You could just play FeBe instead, and start with Trog. Trog is seriously amazing for felids, and I'd recommend you try one, unless you're really opposed to being spell-less. My morgue: http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/tasonir/mor ... 055250.txt

1) Stealth is helpful, and you don't have that much else to train, but I wouldn't expect to ever be able to walk up to things reliably and stab them. You'll have to melee most things with normal damage.

2) Jump attacks are new since my run, I don't think they can stab, but in any case, I wouldn't play felids looking to get all the stabs you can. You do high damage in melee as well, unarmed scales far better than short blades.

3) sounds like a bug. I've never tried it. Quaff the potion when you don't have BA running.

4) I don't think mutation gambles are common, no. If you can get jivya, she's great on felids, but she's rather hard to find. You can start the game with trog.

5) Caster felids are absolutely possible, lots of people run them that way, I've seen a fair amount of summoners also, but summoning has had a bunch of other nerfs since .8, so might not be as strong as you're expecting it to be (caps on the number of monsters you can have at once is the big one).

6) Not sure; if you can get them, it's probably intended.

7) There isn't really a way to get high AC. You could go statue form if you really wanted ac, but that'll kill your EV as you said. Just really max out your dodging, rely on your EV, and you will die a few times from cheap two shotting. You have extra lives. My felid ended the game with 3 ac (fur) and 55 EV (slightly cheating with a potion of agility because I like to see what the max EV record I can set, I'm not trying to mislead).

8) Certainly can be good to get summonings, but I haven't done it personally. I generally melee.

9) Berserk and melee them. This is pretty much the answer to everything, by the way. Your claws won't cut off heads. However, if you say *early* 8 headed hydras, run away. You're faster than they are. Come back when berserking them is no question of success.

10) Have more than 10 dodge. You should really be focusing #1 on unarmed, #2 on dodging. Dodging should be well, well above 10 by this point. You don't need transmutations on a felid imho.

11) edit: just jewelery - no on wands. Silly me.

12) no equipment.

13) I'd stardance it, but there are other ways to go. Notice there's only 2 stairs there - Find out which downstair from snake:4 goes to the third staircase, it'll be safe.

14) I'd recommend trog and no earth magic, but there are lots of ways to go about felids.

15) yes, it does. Weapon skills take 2 skill levels for -.1 turn speed, unarmed takes 5.4 levels for -.1 speed. Because the devs hate unarmed. It goes from 1 turn unskilled to .5 turns at 27 skill.

16) If you go invis while in sight of the monsters, they use your last known location and try to hit you. This usually succeeds. Go invis before they are in LOS and they'll be a lot worse at hitting you. They still have some chance.

TL;DR: Go trog, don't use stealth or magic, and just claw the hell out of everything.

EDIT: Almost forgot! Get guardian spirit if you're going trog, it's seriously amazing now. It no longer takes all your magic first, but splits up the damage between hp and magic. it's basically an extra 30 hp on a felid, which you really, really need. I got lucky on my run with a randart guardian spirit amulet. Very, very worth it.
Edit2: also, since you get zero gifts from trog, you'll always have 6* piety, and can really spam the hell out of brothers in arms. Just BIA anything remotely dangerous.

[Siegurt]

Some comments:

Felids are a challenge race. They cannot use wands, nor any armour or weapons (They can't wield anything except arrows, and those are only for sticks to snakes)

Summons are harder to use now, not just for felids. Summons now have a cap of "total number of things you can summon" so you can summon a couple things and have them around for a while, or you can summon several things and have them last through just part of the combat, or you can summon a crap ton of stuff and watch it all go poof before it has a chance to do anything at all (hint, don't do this) Note also with high stealth and unarmed combat, when a creature takes a swipe at one of your summons you can potentially stab it.

Jump attacks don't stab (for anyone) this is not a bug (It's a good way to kill centaurs though)

Beneficial mutation + BA shouldn't have a bad interaction, that's likely a bug

Stealth is a decent skill, both because it lets you walk away from combats you don't want to get into and because it sometimes lets you stab stuff. It also functions as half of the old stabbing skill (your stab damage is done proportional to the average of your stealth and whatever your weapon skill is)

Unarmed combat reduces your attack delay by 1 for every 5.4 skill points you have (Taking you from 10 to 5 by the time your UC is 27) it also directly adds to your base damage and to hit, it's consistently more damage the higher you train it.

Mutation gambles aren't really a very good way to win, most players either use trog or offensive spells.

Acquirement and expirence are both very rare drops, but even very rare drops can happen in early levels, just very rarely.

There's no good way to build up felid AC outside of the methods you mentioned, that's one of the reasons they're a challenge race high EV is good, and higer EV is better, but the main thing to do is use Felid's speed to control how much you are in combat in at a time (hint, if it's more than one thing you'll often regret it)

Repel missiles and sufficient dodge is fine for javelineers, 10 is not sufficent, also take advantage of your jump attack.

That unfair snake ending has two staircases that drop you into the horrible zone, and one staircase that drops you elsewhere, if you get the icky ending, just go back upstairs and come down a different way.

Earth magic has powerful offensive single target spells, Stoneskin, and one of the few ways to break through walls, it has as much appeal as any elemental school

Invis doesn't have anything to do with stealth (Stealth does still contribute to damage done when stabbing even when using invis) However some creatures (Including all Nagas) see invisible naturally, use x to examine creatures, you'll be able to tell if they can see invis or not

[headcrab0803]

14. statue cat is ok and if you have access to the spell i think its good to learn it. however, if you dont have statue form dont dip into earth

[Sar]

Some stuff about your screenshot, if you don't mind. I understand it was a FeTm, correct? Well, then:
1. My highest skill as an XL17 Tm would not be Transmutations. I assume you went for Dragon Form? I'm not sure I would prioritize it, even if I decided to get it, though I understand it can be good with Fe (never tried it).
2. 26 EV? That's pretty low for an XL17 Felid. Looks like you put levelup stats in Int, I would put them in Dex, and try to get much more EV than that.
3. I would not go Sif on Tm, there are much better choices (Makh and Oka being the more obvious ones, Fedhas is great, Nemelex is pretty fun and strong but can be a bit overwhelming at first).
4. You have a lot of mana, what was your Spellcasting? That skill is usually low priority on my Tms, and Fe have built-in gourmand so hunger is even less of a concern (or annoyance) for them.

[Cheetah]

Well given that you gave your time to answer so many of my questions, it's only nice if I responded to all the pertinent ones. So here goes.

That's a lot of questions. I'll probably miss some, but this should cover most of it.

I've won one Fe, and it was a FeMo of Trog. You could just play FeBe instead, and start with Trog. Trog is seriously amazing for felids, and I'd recommend you try one, unless you're really opposed to being spell-less. My morgue: http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/tasonir/mor ... 055250.txt

I may try a Trog run a bit later, your morgue is pretty impressive. I'm not sure if I could live without the adaptability that spells offer though. If one thing, I think I'll actually consider Evocations with Rage amulet if I were to find it. The thought of going berserker in Dragon form with haste makes me smile.

1) Stealth is helpful, and you don't have that much else to train, but I wouldn't expect to ever be able to walk up to things reliably and stab them. You'll have to melee most things with normal damage.

I'm not convinced, mainly due to my most recent run where I had 16 stealth due to a manual of stealth on D4, all the snakes in that screenshot woke up straight away. I'm not sure if going down stairs makes extra noise or not, but I would expect for such an early branch, 16 would be enough not to wake some of them up. I did appreciate the fact that Trolls would just blunder straight past me not having noticed me though!

3) sounds like a bug. I've never tried it. Quaff the potion when you don't have BA running.

Unfortunately this happens way too much for me, given that if I see early Grinder or what not I lead them to a staircase, put my horns up and quaff what I think might be a potion of might... I'll report this just in case it's a bug, if not, very annoying.

5) Caster felids are absolutely possible, lots of people run them that way, I've seen a fair amount of summoners also, but summoning has had a bunch of other nerfs since .8, so might not be as strong as you're expecting it to be (caps on the number of monsters you can have at once is the big one).

Yeah I noticed the nerfs. I did give summoning one more shot after someone informed me of this while I was playing online. "Why are you not using canine familiar from book of beasts" He said. I was like "Why?". Then I tried it out against a hydra and Sonja and was sold. I guess it might be a good substitute in lair. As a bonus it requires 0 summoning A few of my poor hounds got banished though. Poor guys.

9) Berserk and melee them. This is pretty much the answer to everything, by the way. Your claws won't cut off heads. However, if you say *early* 8 headed hydras, run away. You're faster than they are. Come back when berserking them is no question of success.

I may try berserk in Ice form against 8 headed hydras. I haven't ever added berserk as part of a transmuter run but this seems like it might be a good idea if I find the appropriate amulet.

10) Have more than 10 dodge. You should really be focusing #1 on unarmed, #2 on dodging. Dodging should be well, well above 10 by this point. You don't need transmutations on a felid imho.

I find Dragon Form to be just too good to ignore. The fact that it kills Stone Giants in 2 hits with 10 unarmed combat and that gives you fR++ is too amazing to ignore. So I usually just get Transmutations to 13 to use that. Spell hunger not being any problem means Dragon Form is best suited for felid than any other class I feel. Not to mention that ignite poison, a transmutations spell ANNIHILATES everything in the spider lair with amazing results.

13) I'd stardance it, but there are other ways to go. Notice there's only 2 stairs there - Find out which downstair from snake:4 goes to the third staircase, it'll be safe.

The issue I have with this end is that you have a 2 in 3 chance of choosing the wrong choice. Once you take that choice, the teleport traps will scatter all that nastiness throughout the level and as I found out, (To my death) Guardian Serpents have probably one of the most anti felid abilities in the game. Not to mention that Greater Nagas seem to spawn with dragon slay alot. Which led to an 'ooops' moment when I realised I had just taken 50 damage in one hit. Suffice to say, I'll probably leave Snake Pit finale until after Vaults from no on...

15) yes, it does. Weapon skills take 2 skill levels for -.1 turn speed, unarmed takes 5.4 levels for -.1 speed. Because the devs hate unarmed. It goes from 1 turn unskilled to .5 turns at 27 skill.

Seems like a long time until kiting becomes effective enough to effectively negate any chance of something slow hitting you.

16) If you go invis while in sight of the monsters, they use your last known location and try to hit you. This usually succeeds. Go invis before they are in LOS and they'll be a lot worse at hitting you. They still have some chance.

The thing is, in this particular death, I actually moved way back, anticipating that this would be my end once I had drunk my invisibility pot. I must've been 6 squares away, very little magic contamination and of course a siren mesmerised me even though I was invisible and not even close to where I used invisibility. Suffice to say this caused a little rage that wasn't evoked in the game. None of them had see invisibility which made me go 'lolwut' all over the place. After 2 javelins of penetration I lost my run. around 50 damage per each even with dragon damage reduction, why are javelins this powerful?

EDIT: Almost forgot! Get guardian spirit if you're going trog, it's seriously amazing now. It no longer takes all your magic first, but splits up the damage between hp and magic. it's basically an extra 30 hp on a felid, which you really, really need. I got lucky on my run with a randart guardian spirit amulet. Very, very worth it.

Guardian Spirit is amazing, but I prefer the ring of regeneration. For felids it has absolutely no set back given that you can just engorge yourself on the nearest kill. Now if I had both of these... muhahahaha.

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Some comments:

Felids are a challenge race. They cannot use wands, nor any armour or weapons (They can't wield anything except arrows, and those are only for sticks to snakes)

Yeah I noticed felids could wield arrows in their mouth. I actually lol'd when I noticed this. I don't actually use Sticks to Snakes though. I found it unnecessary.

Note also with high stealth and unarmed combat, when a creature takes a swipe at one of your summons you can potentially stab it.

Yeah I abused this on my high stealth run earlier with Hounds, it made Sonja much less dangerous

Jump attacks don't stab (for anyone) this is not a bug (It's a good way to kill centaurs though)

That's too bad. I was hoping for cheesy stabs against adders to avoid the poison

Stealth is a decent skill, both because it lets you walk away from combats you don't want to get into and because it sometimes lets you stab stuff. It also functions as half of the old stabbing skill (your stab damage is done proportional to the average of your stealth and whatever your weapon skill is)

It just didn't do much when I tried it out in Snake Pit, so I'm a little wary about raising it past 4-8 or so. I mean I might as well get some stealth with that +4 Apt.

Acquirement and expirence are both very rare drops, but even very rare drops can happen in early levels, just very rarely.

Weirdly it happens often for me. I wonder if acquirement spawns can happen along with normal loot generation and because Felids are a limited class... but yeah one run I had 3 Acquirement scrolls before lair, I found that crazy. Spectators thought I was cheating lol

Repel missiles and sufficient dodge is fine for javelineers, 10 is not sufficent, also take advantage of your jump attack.

So I should train past 10 before I sub branch? Hrmmm. Jump attack would have been bad in my situation given that unique has some annoying spells and was nearby with her little entourage. I actually had to go back up during that encounter. But I died later due to them coming back with sirens who didn't care that I was invisible

Earth magic has powerful offensive single target spells, Stoneskin, and one of the few ways to break through walls, it has as much appeal as any elemental school

I'll try Earth, never went Air anyway except for airstrike. (Which is really darn good I have to say)

Invis doesn't have anything to do with stealth (Stealth does still contribute to damage done when stabbing even when using invis) However some creatures (Including all Nagas) see invisible naturally, use x to examine creatures, you'll be able to tell if they can see invis or not

Yeah except I went invisible against merfolk who didn't have it. It didn't end well, I should have used a teleport

Thanks for the advices from you both. I think I can add some of this knowledge to my runs. if I ever win I'll be sure to post the morgue

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Some stuff about your screenshot, if you don't mind. I understand it was a FeTm, correct? Well, then:
1. My highest skill as an XL17 Tm would not be Transmutations. I assume you went for Dragon Form? I'm not sure I would prioritize it, even if I decided to get it, though I understand it can be good with Fe (never tried it).
2. 26 EV? That's pretty low for an XL17 Felid. Looks like you put levelup stats in Int, I would put them in Dex, and try to get much more EV than that.
3. I would not go Sif on Tm, there are much better choices (Makh and Oka being the more obvious ones, Fedhas is great, Nemelex is pretty fun and strong but can be a bit overwhelming at first).
4. You have a lot of mana, what was your Spellcasting? That skill is usually low priority on my Tms, and Fe have built-in gourmand so hunger is even less of a concern (or annoyance) for them.

1) I think my highest skill was like 14 Transmutations, for reliable dragon form + ignite poison, trust me, ignite poison basically trivialised the whole lair for me until this point. I did have unarmed at around 12 by this time, 10 dodge and I think 8 fighting or so, mainly for the hp boost. Oh and 12 stealth (I had +8 Apt for it lol) You really must try Dragon Form though and jump attack on anything, they explode with blood everywhere. It's that good!

2) 2 strength, rest in Intelligence in that build. Intelligence was needed because I had the big 3 spells that I like to have at that point. (Ignite poison, Dragon + Haste) If it helps, I did have 40 evade on the run I did afterwards. +6 evasion ring is yummy.

3) I may try other Gods, I am getting a bit sick of Sif Muna truth be told. I'll take your advice and try all the ones you have listed.

4) I think my spellcasting was 7 there. I had a ring of magical power equipped because I had just got done spamming ignite poison on the floor above. Is spellcasting really that bad to raise?

[Siegurt]

Spellcasting is not a terrible skill, you just don't want to overemphasize it, Train it when you need more spell slots, don't train it to increase your success or reduce your hunger costs.

It's secondary effect (increased MP) isn't very helpful for transmuters since you usually only cast 1-2 spells per combat, generally you'll only train extra spellcasting to get more MP if you're playing a very blasty-oriented character

[Cheetah]

Spellcasting is not a terrible skill, you just don't want to overemphasize it, Train it when you need more spell slots, don't train it to increase your success or reduce your hunger costs.

It's secondary effect (increased MP) isn't very helpful for transmuters since you usually only cast 1-2 spells per combat, generally you'll only train extra spellcasting to get more MP if you're playing a very blasty-oriented character

Isn't having a conjuration or two as a back up a good thing for Transmuters? Or do you think I could live without them maybe?

[Sar]

One time I had Ignite Poison on my Tm I was following Chei (don't follow Chei, btw) and had stupidly high Int so I could get a decent success/spellpower without heavy investment and I wanted to try that spell out. Wouldn't go out f my way to get it, though.

[Bloax]

The problem about pumping transmutations for dragon form is that dragon form is a pretty rare spell, and won't help you with anything until you find it.

Dodging and unarmed will always help you as a felid, however. And you really need that help as a felid.
Of course you're going Sif to get dragon form, but that's a risky move when you could get a more reliably useful god.
(And speaking from experience, Cheibriados is an attractive choice - but too damn suicidal for Fe. Although if you have Chei-bladehands and >40 EV, mmm..)

[cerebovssquire]

Spellcasting is not a terrible skill, you just don't want to overemphasize it, Train it when you need more spell slots, don't train it to increase your success or reduce your hunger costs.

It's secondary effect (increased MP) isn't very helpful for transmuters since you usually only cast 1-2 spells per combat, generally you'll only train extra spellcasting to get more MP if you're playing a very blasty-oriented character

Isn't having a conjuration or two as a back up a good thing for Transmuters? Or do you think I could live without them maybe?

No, it's not a good idea. You already have so many skills you need to invest in as Tm (Fighting and Dodging, especially as a Felid, Unarmed Combat which requires high skill levels, and some Spellcasting and Transmutations. Charms and Translocations are also very useful, and then depending on god choice you might need Invocations or Evocations), you probably won't have the exp to spare to get decently powered conjurations.

[Lasty]

I think the most important thing you should take out of these responses is that your UC and Dodging skills should be raised much earlier than you are currently doing. Having at least 16.2 UC and 15 Dodging by the end of Lair should be feasible, and will make you way more powerful offensively and defensively.

Regarding hydrae, if you have decent UC and Dodging, you can kill them in ice beast form without too much trouble. You can use berserk or haste if you're worried about it. Another alternative if you have decent UC is to use a potion of lignification. It'll give you a very large AC boost, but completely strip your dodging and ability to escape. The AC boost is large enough that the hydra will on average do no damage to you at all, though if you get sufficiently unlucky in your AC rolls and hydra damage rolls you can still see damage spikes.

Regarding invis, when monsters are awake and didn't see you go invis, they'll still try to attack you, and they have a chance of correctly guessing where you are. It sounds like that siren correctly guessed where you were.

Earth is a fine skill investment if you're planning to go for Stoneskin / LRD / Iron Shot, and a -2 aptitude doesn't matter that much. If you're playing as a transmuter, you'll probably want to get at least 16 UC, 15 Dodging, ~10 Fighting and ~10 Transmutations before you put any XP into Earth, because it's better to get your primary offense and defense skills to a decent level before branching into secondary offense skills.

Because the devs hate unarmed. It goes from 1 turn unskilled to .5 turns at 27 skill.

That's absurd. AFAIK, no dev actually hates unarmed, and in fact unarmed is one of the best weapons in the game. The only catch is that it takes a big investment to become awesome. It needs to take a large investment because all characters start with the ability to use it and at high levels it is one of the more powerful weapons in the game; if it was also good without significant investment, there would be virtually no reason for weapons to exist because they would almost always be the wrong choice.

[duvessa]

Because the devs hate unarmed. It goes from 1 turn unskilled to .5 turns at 27 skill.

That's absurd.

First time talking to tasonir?

I don't get why you'd want conjurations on a transmuter, you already have a way to do damage.

[Lasty]

Well, they're definitely not necessary, since your primary form of damage is extremely powerful. I've come to like getting an alternate form of primary damage on some of my characters, though -- while it takes away somewhat from the power of your primary damage source, it allows you more to handle a wider range of situations safely, and often it doesn't take that much XP to get to a helpful level.

If I were going to get a conjuration on a FeTm, I'd probably get bolt of cold rather than iron shot for these reasons:
* it would at least give you extra AC on ice form and Ozo's armour (also Ozo's armour is better than stoneskin for characters which don't/can't wear armour heavier than leather)
* it can hit multiple targets in a single action, which neither transmutations nor iron shot can do
* it has better range than iron shot

I think I may have done that with my Tm win, but it looks like I didn't post it here, so I can't check.

[crate]

well for tm in particular ... it's kind of hard to cast conjurations with blade hands active; and for most transmuters you want to be using blade hands a large portion of the time

[duvessa]

If you're getting ice magic on a transmuter I'd be interested in refrigeration first, for what it's worth (ice form!)

[Lasty]

If you're getting ice magic on a transmuter I'd be interested in refrigeration first, for what it's worth (ice form!)

Agreed, though it's harder to find.

[Cheetah]

The problem about pumping transmutations for dragon form is that dragon form is a pretty rare spell, and won't help you with anything until you find it.

Funnily enough I always find Dragon Form on Transmuter runs. Most of the time it's in L8. (Last time I had the dire elephant one and used Teleport Other on the anaconda, lol. If I don't find it I usually use Acquirement to get a book. I have actually had "Transmutations book of Cheetah" in a few runs with Dragon Form/Ignite Poison inside. Didn't know Acquirement could pull stuff like that from Morque files.

I don't get why you'd want conjurations on a transmuter, you already have a way to do damage.

I find that in certain circumstances, it's best to have at least one ranged attack. Felids really struggle here and while Dragon Form's breath is really excellent, there's some times where I need the Felid's naturally high running speed.

well for tm in particular ... it's kind of hard to cast conjurations with blade hands active; and for most transmuters you want to be using blade hands a large portion of the time

I personally skip Blade Hands most of the time. For Felids it basically wakes up everything near you when you're walking around. Which makes escape attempts that much more difficult.

If you're getting ice magic on a transmuter I'd be interested in refrigeration first, for what it's worth (ice form!)

Used this combo in one of my runs and loved it. Also ice spells have alot of nice buffs, which makes me think I should focus in ice if anything.

I think the most important thing you should take out of these responses is that your UC and Dodging skills should be raised much earlier than you are currently doing. Having at least 16.2 UC and 15 Dodging by the end of Lair should be feasible, and will make you way more powerful offensively and defensively.

Tried taking this advice and I have to say, it works. I found killing Death Yak herds to be much easier with these skills. (Didn't even need to kite that much!)

[duvessa]

well for tm in particular ... it's kind of hard to cast conjurations with blade hands active; and for most transmuters you want to be using blade hands a large portion of the time

I personally skip Blade Hands most of the time. For Felids it basically wakes up everything near you when you're walking around. Which makes escape attempts that much more difficult.

Blade hands reduces felid stealth by 50 unless they are flying. This means very little since you are presumably not stabbing and presumably not casting blade hands before exploring.

[Cheetah]

Well hey it looks like you guys have given sound advice. I've worked what you have said into my current build and I'm currently XL26 with everything done except Slime Pits, Hell portals, Zot 5 and Tomb. I do have a few more questions though about the late game. (Yes I'm still getting dragon form, but 1 hit KOing Ancient Liches is hilarious.)

1) Haven't found rMutate yet. Is it necessary for fighting Orbs of fire? Is it possible to just jump on them and overwhelm them? (I have dragon form and rF+++ on normal form and maxed dodge and unarmed combat)

2) Are any of the Hell portals viable for a Transmuter? I've never tried.

3) Is tomb viable either? I got statue form and can get rN+++. Also I should note that I got some experience with dealing with greater mummies due to Crypt 4 trolling me.

4) Is 50 evade, 15 AC, 11 SH, 0.8 move speed enough for the ascent after getting the orb?

5) If I dump a character with the # command on webtiles, where does it save to? I'm playing on crawl.akrasiac.org

Thanks to all for the advices

[Bloax]

1) Haven't found rMutate yet. Is it necessary for fighting Orbs of fire? Is it possible to just jump on them and overwhelm them? (I have dragon form and rF+++ on normal form and maxed dodge and unarmed combat)

If you plan on ascending, it likely doesn't matter. If you're going for a 15-runer then it's just tough luck.

4) Is 50 evade, 15 AC, 11 SH, 0.8 move speed enough for the ascent after getting the orb?

Oh, far more than enough. Just don't forget that you get -cTele and delayed teleports after you pick up the orb.
don't forget the fact that you're winning already and thus flight is much preferred over fight (don't waste time killing everything you meet if you can outrun it, you're just letting more demons spawn)

5) If I dump a character with the # command on webtiles, where does it save to? I'm playing on crawl.akrasiac.org

Get on ##crawl and say "!dump [charactername]" (for other server prefixes look up "bots" here), some bot (likely Henzell in this case) should spit out a link.

[nago]

1) in a 15 runes you'll meet many mutators enemies - learn to break LOS through walls, fog, summon etc. It's kinda boring but you should end with very little mutations. In zot:5 it depends on how many oof you'll have to face, but as you're going to end the game it matters very little.

2) As much as any other "melee" build (yes)

3) As much as any other "melee" build (yes). If you use statue form (which is good for fe, and good against tormentor when punching them) always haste yourself

4) yes, just haste and run away from anything remotely dangerous, fight only things you can't really really avoid. Use dig and any other means to block LoS of things who can hurt you badly.

5) http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/yourUSerID is the morgue folder for akrasiac

[Yermak]

Cheetah, how in the hell did you get rF+++ mutation?

[Cheetah]

Just won :>

4 rune. I tried the tomb etc but I didn't feel comfortable. The ascent was absolutely boring. lol

Thanks for all the help guys.

[blackcustard]

(Had 16 stealth and dragon form so I didn't make any footsteps and they'd still wake up way before I strolled up to them for a stab)

I just wiztested this. At least as felid, dragon form reduces your stealth.

Which makes sense, you know, seeing as you are transforming from a lithe and nimble, naturally stealthy housecat into a FRACCING DRAGON.

[Cheetah]

(Had 16 stealth and dragon form so I didn't make any footsteps and they'd still wake up way before I strolled up to them for a stab)

I just wiztested this. At least as felid, dragon form reduces your stealth.

Which makes sense, you know, seeing as you are transforming from a lithe and nimble, naturally stealthy housecat into a FRACCING DRAGON.

I thought fly increased your stealth since you're not making any footsteps? Or at least it did in Zot 5, I was stabbing pretty much every Orb Guardian with around 14 stealth in dragon form.

[duvessa]

Flight increases your stealth by 10 and nullifies the bonuses/penalties for boots (20 for elven, 50 for stealth), and felid blade hands (-50). Note that it doesn't affect the penalty from hooves. Dragon form sets your racial stealth modifier to 6, lower than any species (felid has 18). Since stealth is increased by (racial modifier)*(stealth skill), and being an untransformed felid gives you an extra 20 stealth, dragon form will only increase your stealth if your skill is extremely low, and it can never increase stealth for a felid.

[Cheetah]

Flight increases your stealth by 10 and nullifies the bonuses/penalties for boots (20 for elven, 50 for stealth), and felid blade hands (-50). Note that it doesn't affect the penalty from hooves. Dragon form sets your racial stealth modifier to 6, lower than any species (felid has 18). Since stealth is increased by (racial modifier)*(stealth skill), and being an untransformed felid gives you an extra 20 stealth, dragon form will only increase your stealth if your skill is extremely low, and it can never increase stealth for a felid.

Oh so that's how stealth works, racial modifier multiplied by level + bonuses? Like MR?

[rebthor]

That's a lot of questions. I'll probably miss some, but this should cover most of it.

I've won one Fe, and it was a FeMo of Trog. You could just play FeBe instead, and start with Trog. Trog is seriously amazing for felids, and I'd recommend you try one, unless you're really opposed to being spell-less. My morgue: http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/tasonir/mor ... 055250.txt

I just want to say that my experience with FeBe of Trog was the exact opposite. I hated it and pretty much suicided the character out of not caring once I had burned all my piety in Zot. This was with high fighting, dodging and unarmed and pretty subpar stealth looking at the morgue. Maybe I would have found it better had I raised stealth to 20+ and dropped some fighting but I found it immensely frustrating that I generally couldn't pull monsters to favorable locations without first exposing myself to everything in the monster's LOS or shouting.