Formicids (twohanders/shields)

[karphead]

Can someone confirm if formicids count as a larger species when training Shields (3/9/15 to overcome penalties for buckler/shield/large)?

[damiac]

So, formicids have raised an interesting new question. What's better, standard twohander with a shield, or GSC without shield?

[Bloax]

Unless you like taking damage with your pretty low hp pool. then definitely twohander/shield.
Because while damage is good, a good amount of SH will serve you all the way down to Zot:5 and block some crystal spears while it's down there too.
Not to mention that 'standard two-hander' includes triple swords/claymores - which now have a base damage of 20; only two base damage less for a much more substantial third defensive axis.

[pubby]

Can someone confirm if formicids count as a larger species when training Shields (3/9/15 to overcome penalties for buckler/shield/large)?

They have normal shield penalties (5/15/25)

What's better, standard twohander with a shield, or GSC without shield?

Twohander+shield seems better in the long run, as Bloax said, but GSC is far more consistent. It's like the decision between platemail and dragon armour. While dragon armour is better, you're not guaranteed to find it, and so sometimes it's better to enchant the first platemail you find and use it.

Also, if you worship Trog then you're going to get lots of GSC gifts, so that might influence your decision.

[damiac]

I sort of figured that was the case. A standard 1 handed weapon loses a lot of damage capability vs a 2 handed version, but only losing 2 base damage is probably worth the shield.

Plus, like you said, if you're not following a gifting god you're only gonna get vanilla GSCs.

So I guess the ability to wield GSCs is made semi-pointless when they can also wield 2 handers and shields. But extra options never hurt.

[Sar]

Well if you are using shields on a Fo you also need to train Shields, that can be a pretty big investment.

[damiac]

True enough, the skill training should be taken into consideration.

OK then, let me rephrase the question. When would it be a good idea to take a GSC with a FO instead of a standard 2 hander and shield?

[pubby]

OK then, let me rephrase the question. When would it be a good idea to take a GSC with a FO instead of a standard 2 hander and shield?

If you're training maces and you haven't found both a 2h mace and a shield by lair, then enchanting a GSC is a good decision.

Also, the best Fo weapon by far is lajatang. Too bad they're extremely rare.

[duvessa]

Using G(S)Cs is practically a no-brainer if you worship Trog, the gifts are so good.

[damiac]

Why is the lajatang so good for Fo?

And duvessa, would you take a GSC of whatever over a triple sword of whatever and a shield? Meaning as a FO troglodyte, would it make more sense to take swords instead of clubs? Or are trog's GSC gifts just better than his triple sword gifts in some way?

[duvessa]

And duvessa, would you take a GSC of whatever over a triple sword of whatever and a shield?

Pretty often, yeah. 2 more base damage and more importantly, 22 skill instead of 26.

Or are trog's GSC gifts just better than his triple sword gifts in some way?

  Code:

            if (is_giant_club_type(doodad.sub_type))
            {
                if (!one_chance_in(25))
                    make_item_randart(doodad, true);
            }

[Kate]

Split some advice stuff (shield vs two-hander) from GDD.

[damiac]

Thanks Marvin.

That's interesting, so all trog gifted G(s)Cs are almost guaranteed to be artifacts? Am I reading that !one in 25 correctly as meaning you have a 1 in 25 chance of it NOT being an artifact?

Does oka have similar treatment?

[duvessa]

Yes.

[tasonir]

Whoa...I'm playing an ogre now and I had no idea trog would give out that many randart clubs. It's too bad I'm already with another god and training magic...I should try OgBe out...

[and into]

Why is the lajatang so good for Fo?

I don't think this was answered above: Lajatangs are two-handed weapons with good base damage (16), plus a very low delay (1.4). They only require 14 skill levels in staves for you to swing them at min-delay. So you get very good melee damage with fairly low skill investment.

[wheals]

Another minor reason is that they are the highest base damage weapon that can get the speed brand on a non-artefact. Even more minor is the fact that they can have the vamp and pain brands, which are not available on all weapons.

[damiac]

Good to know. I never understood why people talked about lajatangs as if they were the ultimate weapon in the game. I guess they're more like a whip of elec, a very good weapon for a very low skill investment, but still not as good as a big twohander with high skill.

[and into]

Good to know. I never understood why people talked about lajatangs as if they were the ultimate weapon in the game. I guess they're more like a whip of elec, a very good weapon for a very low skill investment, but still not as good as a big twohander with high skill.

Yeah, that's the main thing.

I think a while ago "Lajataurs" were a thing on SA forum, as I recall. Aside from this, and what wheals pointed out, I think part of the idea was also that when Trog or Okawaru gives you a gift and rolls staves, they will only give you either a quarterstaff or a lajatang. Even though I think the weighting is unequal, and not in the lajatang's favor, you are fairly likely to get the "ultimate" weapon gift for you weapon class somewhat faster compared to axes, polearms, long swords, or short blades. On the other hand you can just go M&F, and pick up a great mace by D8 half the time—and the other half, on Orc:1 or 2. And then you can worship any god you want—or none at all.

So yeah long story short: Quarterstaff is good but somewhat uncommon, lajatangs are excellent weapons but very rare. But if you really want to go in for god-given weapon abuse, start an Ogre Hunter with large rocks, worship Trog, and pick up the first GC or GSC you come across.