3 rune games, any reason to do harder branches?

[AzuredreamsXT]

Like elf, crypt, slime pits, hall of blades and tomb? I assume pandemonium and the hells are purely for extended, same with voluntary trips to the abyss, but as for the rest are there particular reasons to go there on a 3 rune game besides extra challenge?

[mopl]

No !

The (chance to die/loot) ratio is not good enough to have a trip there...
Except maybe Crypt:1-4...

Tomb and Slime are rune branches btw

[Siegurt]

All of the mentioned branches in general reduce, rather than increase your odds of winning (They do provide some loot, but on the whole the loot provided reduces your risk less overall than the risk of attempting said branches)


The (very) uncommon exceptions are:

1. When you don't have a bit of loot which would highly increase your odds of winning, and haven't found it in any of the branches you're going to explore anyway (Which is extremely uncommon)
AND
2. You can minimize the risks associated with those branches. (For example elf minimal risk is "has high AC/EV, repel and/or deflect missiles, a lot of HP, a dig wand, a non-spell way of killing stuff, and silence, obviously there's some flexibility there, but that's the general idea)

One other exception is if you are a jivya worshipper, then slime is no risk at all.

(Actually of the mentioned branches slime is the least risky, crypt and elf are pretty close (really it depends on what stuff you're using, most would say elf is slightly harder I think) And tomb is the hardest (But also the most predictable, so once you know what to expect it's not nearly so awful)

Hall of blades is probably the least worth it, the loot being particularly poor, and the risks not being worth it ever afaik.

And as pointed out there's a rune in both slime and tomb, although those would probably not be the easiest runes to get in a 3 rune game...

[AzuredreamsXT]

Yea I also meant are there circumstances where attaining your runes from something besides spider/snake, shoals/swamp and vaults becomes desirable (maybe you lack poison resistance but have good gear to do slime or crypt/tomb or something, I'm still quite new to the game, currently on my eighth or so attempt)

[moocowmoocow]

Yea I also meant are there circumstances where attaining your runes from something besides spider/snake, shoals/swamp and vaults becomes desirable (maybe you lack poison resistance but have good gear to do slime or crypt/tomb or something, I'm still quite new to the game, currently on my eighth or so attempt)

Without poison resistance you're still way safer in spider/snake than slime/tomb. Tomb especially is firmly in the "endgame branch" category. But you should try it out for yourself, that's half the fun.

[njvack]

Most common for me would be Elf if I'm missing good rF. The first two levels used to be pretty easy, but the top-tier elves like to show up there now. Pretty much any of them can spoil your day.

But they're more reasonable than Elf:3, and can have shops.

Tomb is an adventure.

[Igxfl]

The (chance to die/loot) ratio is not good enough to have a trip there...

Sounds like we need a YASD/$ branch desirability index.

Really, though, if you're going to do extra branches you might as well get extra runes for your trouble. Grabbing the Abyssal rune, say, isn't going to kill you more often than Elf:3 will.

[damiac]

Grabbing the abyssal rune will also probably not give you any nice randart rings, spellbooks, and the like. The elf vault always has a few worthwhile equipment swaps for me, if nothing else.

The abyssal rune is still infinitely more useful than any other rune in the game, since it does make future abyss trips less horrible.

[Igxfl]

Yeah, sparse Abyss loot is a good point. Elf loot is nice, and I'd generally grab it before extended, but I don't know if it's worth the risk for a three-runer.

[Klown]

What if you aren't confident about your character's chances on D:27 & Zot but you have 3 runes and D:26 all cleared?
Is there a safe place to go get some more EXP before attempting Zot?

[wheals]

Crypt certainly has the highest xp/danger ratio of the branches mentioned. The loot is mediocre to nonexistent outside the final level though.

[Lasty]

Crypt certainly has the highest xp/danger ratio of the branches mentioned. The loot is mediocre to nonexistent outside the final level though.

The loot outside of C:$ is normally generated, so it's roughly equivalent to the loot on a similarly-deep level of D.

[wheals]

The loot outside of C:$ is normally generated, so it's roughly equivalent to the loot on a similarly-deep level of D.

Except that late D, and definitely Depths, is going to have lots of vaults which often give above-normal loot. Crypt vaults are definitely rarer or feel that way to me.

[njvack]

Crypt used to be four floors of free XP (and then one with loot and ancient liches), but I've heard that is no longer true.

D:27 will probably not be worse than the end of Vaults. Zot:1-4 should not be too very much worse than that.

Unless you've been really unlucky with loot, getting more loot after clearing D and Vaults will rarely make your character stronger. The odds of a really great artefact for your character are low, and you've probably spent your enchant scrolls on armour and a weapon and you're not likely to do better.

Sometimes you're looking for the right enhancer staff a particular spell or something, and then going for that loot can make sense. But, thinking "hey maybe I'll find the hat of the alchemist or something" will probably make you sad.

[Magipi]

I think Elf 1-2 is not difficult, certainly easier than Zot 1-4, especially if you have Repel missiles. Not much XP, sadly, but the elves frequently drop good bucklers, robes and light armour, and there might be shops there, too.

[damiac]

What's this D27 crap anyway? Everyone knows D ends at 16, always has, always will...

I get jealous of those 11 floors of delicious XP we trunk players don't have anymore.

For me, the main benefit of elf is spellbooks and artifact jewelery. And XP I guess, like any other branch.

[crate]

I get jealous of those 11 floors of delicious XP we trunk players don't have anymore.

you mean the same amount of xp that's in depths?

[Klown]

Got blown away by an Orb of Fire of Zot:1
Was only level 23.

I see lots of 'too much exp' posts. Maybe I need to play Humans, or go for 4-5 runes to reach XL:27 :p

[moocowmoocow]

Got blown away by an Orb of Fire of Zot:1
Was only level 23.

I see lots of 'too much exp' posts. Maybe I need to play Humans, or go for 4-5 runes to reach XL:27 :p

Wow 23 is quite low... did you do all the floors of the lair branches? I would go ahead and do Crypt then Elf if Zot was too hard.

[Klown]

Got blown away by an Orb of Fire of Zot:1
Was only level 23.

I see lots of 'too much exp' posts. Maybe I need to play Humans, or go for 4-5 runes to reach XL:27 :p

Wow 23 is quite low... did you do all the floors of the lair branches? I would go ahead and do Crypt then Elf if Zot was too hard.

Cleared lair/orc/snake pit/swamp/vaults/and the normal 27 dungeon levels. MiBe.

Gonna try magic for now on...

[XuaXua]

Hall of blades is probably the least worth it, the loot being particularly poor, and the risks not being worth it ever afaik.

If you have excellent ranged weaponry / conjurations and escape abilities (extra speed), Hall of Blades can net you some extra XP with little effort.

[morik]

Hall of blades is probably the least worth it, the loot being particularly poor, and the risks not being worth it ever afaik.

If you have excellent ranged weaponry / conjurations and escape abilities (extra speed), Hall of Blades can net you some extra XP with little effort.

Yeah, till that anti-magic executioners axe chunks you for half your health and most of your mana...

[XuaXua]

Hall of blades is probably the least worth it, the loot being particularly poor, and the risks not being worth it ever afaik.

If you have excellent ranged weaponry / conjurations and escape abilities (extra speed), Hall of Blades can net you some extra XP with little effort.

Yeah, till that anti-magic executioners axe chunks you for half your health and most of your mana...

Well, you should have iron shot him out of the air from a distance before he even got to you.

[headcrab0803]

I go elf if i want a nice buckler cuz Elf:1~2 wont kill me anyway
slime is pretty hard but doable if you have 3 runes
tomb? i think tomb can be not that hard if you have silence

[cerebovssquire]

Hall of blades is ok if you are a stabber with invisibility, weapons don't sInv.
Tomb is good if you are a kiku worshipper, it then is easier than Zot if you are careful and you get a ton of exp and loot, and I guess if you were a mummy with dispel undead or the like you might want to go there too (but watch out for statrot, which will be annoying unless you kill as many mummies as possible with summons).

[Sar]

Blade also often has unique parties, in case fast monsters with huge damage and AC are not enough for you.

[tasonir]

2. You can minimize the risks associated with those branches. (For example elf minimal risk is "has high AC/EV, repel and/or deflect missiles, a lot of HP, a dig wand, a non-spell way of killing stuff, and silence, obviously there's some flexibility there, but that's the general idea)

Your list looks almost entirely different from mine...I mean, I like the high AC/EV and hp part, but after that I go for at least one pip rF, rC, and at least 2 sources of MR, possibly three. This can be adjusted down if your races get more than 3 magic resistance per level. Spriggans probably don't need any, but you could always bring one to be sure. Non-spell damage is automatic since I'm melee anyways. Digging is great to have but half the time I don't bother because I'm overconfident anyways. I don't think I've ever cast silence the spell, maybe I should do that sometime. Regeneration is a huge plus.

Elf I'd say I run fairly often, it's a good pile of loot, additional exp, and usually quite safe after you've gotten the hang of running it 2-3 times. I skip crypt out of habit, but it's not too terrible. It needs to be firmly separated from Tomb, which OP mentioned in the same list of branches above, because tomb is not even near the same league. Do not ever do tomb until you have 14 runes and a death wish, unless you're a very specific character (undead with torment immunity, for example). Even then, you probably still shouldn't.

Slime pits is fairly easy, IF you have the laundry list of items you need to deal with it safely. You want preservation and rMut - it's tough to be wearing resist corrosion and rMut amulets at once, so you really want the cloak ego. You could possibly wear full artefacts instead, but it's 1) very tough to have artefacts worth wearing in every slot, and 2) you still will take more acid damage this way, but with high enough stats that can work. Then you also need a way to deal with eyeball paralysis (smite or aoe damage spells that will kill them very quickly). Just melee is also okay, IF you have really buff stats and can handle being knocked out. You still need to use tactics to avoid this happening as much as possible. And finally don't be using any ranged weapons that don't fire stones. If you have all of that, slime is pretty easy. Otherwise, don't go. Also, you want at least rC+, more is helpful.

[nago]

but after that I go for at least one pip rF, rC

To resist what, fireball and freeze? rF and rC are pretty much useless in elf - MR is very good to have on the other hand (but that is true pretty much everywhere)

[tasonir]

True it isn't really required, it probably shouldn't mentioned in the same sentence as MR, which is much more mandatory. It's mostly the branded arrows that do decent elemental damage, but fireball, demon summons (ice devils, sun demons, etc) also can hurt without any resistance.

[and into]

You could possibly wear full artefacts instead, but it's 1) very tough to have artefacts worth wearing in every slot, and 2) you still will take more acid damage this way, but with high enough stats that can work. Then you also need a way to deal with eyeball paralysis (smite or aoe damage spells that will kill them very quickly). Just melee is also okay, IF you have really buff stats and can handle being knocked out. You still need to use tactics to avoid this happening as much as possible. And finally don't be using any ranged weapons that don't fire stones. If you have all of that, slime is pretty easy. Otherwise, don't go. Also, you want at least rC+, more is helpful.

For Slime Pits I'd say good AC/EV, rAcid, rC+, and as many armor slots filled as possible are the minimum requirements. Wear your best armor in each slot, going into Slime Pits with substandard gear because of corrosion is bad play.

rMut is very nice to have but secondary to the above. Be wary of all the eyes: Great orb of eyes, shining eyes, giant eyeballs and golden eyes (the latter come in packs and have high EV and you tend to run into them more often in Slime, so overall IMO they are more dangerous than giant eyeballs in practice unless you have really high MR or clarity.)

For someone who is going to the Slime Pits for the first time, I'd recommend good AC/EV, rAcid, rMut, and rC+, plus very good MR; if your HP isn't great then rC++. You can bring stasis and/or clarity on switch to be absolutely safe, too, if you like. The Slime Pits vary hardly at all between games, so once you've cleared it once or twice you will know what to expect, and can do fine with a good deal less than the ideal set up.

[sgrunt]

This is probably a non-factor in general, but I recently three-runed with Abyss solely because of a trove asking for the abyssal rune.

(Funnily enough, I don't think I even used anything from the trove.)

[AzuredreamsXT]

Just completed my current game, which was the reason I made this thread. Was my first crawl win, 4 runes from shoals, spider, slime and vaults. I found the slime pits to be fairly easy, but I did them last before heading to Zot. I swapped between an artefact rCorr amulet and an rMut amulet and it worked out well. The only thing that challenged me was the Royal Jelly, as well as the highly damaging walls. This char had great luck with MR gear though (incredibly resistant) so I swatted aside eyes like they were goblins, and the jellies couldn't get past my AC/EV really.

Cleared Crypt with only one hiccup, a floating skull that tormented me and summoned flayed ghosts who flayed me. Had to retreat and head back in with a few of Mahkleb's greater demons backing me.

Then, out of hubris, decided to pop my head into Tomb

Bad Idea

Barely made it out with my life lmao

[and into]

Just completed my current game, which was the reason I made this thread. Was my first crawl win, 4 runes from shoals, spider, slime and vaults. I found the slime pits to be fairly easy, but I did them last before heading to Zot. I swapped between an artefact rCorr amulet and an rMut amulet and it worked out well. The only thing that challenged me was the Royal Jelly, as well as the highly damaging walls. This char had great luck with MR gear though (incredibly resistant) so I swatted aside eyes like they were goblins, and the jellies couldn't get past my AC/EV really.

Cleared Crypt with only one hiccup, a floating skull that tormented me and summoned flayed ghosts who flayed me. Had to retreat and head back in with a few of Mahkleb's greater demons backing me.

Then, out of hubris, decided to pop my head into Tomb

Bad Idea

Barely made it out with my life lmao

Congrats! And yeah, as far as Tomb goes, what happened to you was basically identical for my first (several) experiences in there, as well. Eventually you'll get a character who can topple it though, and it changes even less than Slime Pits from game to game—so after that you'll at least know what to expect.

Do note that shining eyes and giant eyeballs do not check MR. However, the rest do. (Well eyes of devastation don't, obviously, but yeah.) I've also usually found that swapping rMut and rCorr and being careful is sufficient in Slime, especially if you have a few scrolls of fog just in case.

[duvessa]

Do note that shining eyes and giant eyeballs do not check MR. However, the rest do. (Well eyes of devastation don't, obviously, but yeah.)

great orb of eyes doesnt check mr when it bites you

[Lasty]

FWIW, you can do Slime w/ a longbow, as long as the following are true:

* The longbow is reasonably well-enchanted and you have decent skill with it
* You don't care about ammo being eaten.
* You either have apportation, or don't care about leaving ammo next to slime walls, or will carefully avoid shooting into tiles next to slime walls.

None of the ammo-eating monsters gain enough health back to prevent you from killing them dead with arrows. Reference: https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=9682&p=132805

[Galefury]

I think sometimes it makes sense to do Slime instead of V:$. It's much more predictable, but of course still a hellhole. But V:$ is a really good level, so usually you should just get the Vaults rune because it's more fun.

[Klown]

I've gotten wrecked in Slime in my two visits there. :s They were melee characters though.