EV + Shield


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Blades Runner

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Post Thursday, 9th January 2014, 18:44

EV + Shield

I definitely see the value of a good shield on high AC, low EV characters through the main game. However, a couple of times recently I've found a good buckler or whatever on a 1-H weapon EV character and made the small investment in Shields. I end up with something like 19 EV, 13 SH. I'll get "You block the foo" messages, but I'm not sure if those were attacks I would probably have dodged anyway. How much real benefit is there to a SH score if it's lower than your EV?
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Swamp Slogger

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Post Thursday, 9th January 2014, 19:07

Re: EV + Shield

i would expect dodge to be checked before shield, but im not sure on that at all. seems like it should be.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Thursday, 9th January 2014, 19:59

Re: EV + Shield

Blocking is checked before dodging.

Shoals Surfer

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Post Thursday, 9th January 2014, 22:09

Re: EV + Shield

It means you get 2 rolls. + shield loses some efficiency as it blocks more attacks. I'm not sure about forumla though. (there is only 25% chance to get under 50% of average score for both)

Shoals Surfer

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Post Thursday, 9th January 2014, 22:16

Re: EV + Shield

AC is only checked if SH fails to block(just like EV), so I don't see a practical difference between AC and EV in this context.

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Shoals Surfer

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Post Thursday, 9th January 2014, 22:29

Re: EV + Shield

pickled_heretic wrote:AC is only checked if SH fails to block(just like EV), so I don't see a practical difference between AC and EV in this context.


The thing that matter is that each block makes next block harder in same turn. If you eat 3 centaur arrows you have high chance to block the first, but lower chance to block the rest. If block didn't have this mechanic EV and SH would essentially work the same way, and order in which game checks them wouldn't matter as the dodged+blocked attack would be same no matter which you count first. AC work in completely different way reducing damage instead of giving chance to avoid damage based upon accuracy of the foe.
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Pandemonium Purger

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Post Friday, 10th January 2014, 07:00

Re: EV + Shield

If EV had precedence before SH then shields would be ridiculously good, since the malus of multiple blocks per turn would be significantly reduced with high EV. (Simply because you'd dodge a shitload of the attacks before they get to check SH.)
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Friday, 10th January 2014, 07:24

Re: EV + Shield

I'm not sure "ridiculously good" would be what they would become. "Better than they are now" certainly.

As is, *most* of the time I am only being attacked once per action.
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Post Friday, 10th January 2014, 10:57

Re: EV + Shield

Shields are already pretty good (better now Depths exist and great onehanders are that much more common) so if EV was checked before then they would indeed be a heck of a lot better, to the point of silliness.
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Friday, 10th January 2014, 13:05

Re: EV + Shield

Conceptually, checking EV first makes sense; is EV ability reduced in the same fashion as SH when used?
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Dungeon Master

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Post Friday, 10th January 2014, 13:44

Re: EV + Shield

XuaXua wrote:Conceptually, checking EV first makes sense; is EV ability reduced in the same fashion as SH when used?


No.
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Friday, 10th January 2014, 18:02

Re: EV + Shield

Lasty wrote:
XuaXua wrote:Conceptually, checking EV first makes sense; is EV ability reduced in the same fashion as SH when used?


No.


If it was swapped in position with shields, it should be.
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Dungeon Master

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Post Friday, 10th January 2014, 18:22

Re: EV + Shield

Though that would be a massive nerf to dodging on characters w/o shields.
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Friday, 10th January 2014, 22:50

Re: EV + Shield

Lasty wrote:Though that would be a massive nerf to dodging on characters w/o shields.


Then give everyone a +1 skill attribute to compensate.
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Dungeon Master

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Post Monday, 13th January 2014, 13:35

Re: EV + Shield

Massive nerf as in, dodging would no longer be an effective primary defense for characters, and thus all characters would need to go for AC defense. Increasing the amount of EV given by dodging wouldn't fix the problem, as it would just make the character absurdly invincible against situations that require the character to dodge once per turn, but still much more vulnerable against situations that force more than one dodge per turn.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Monday, 13th January 2014, 15:10

Re: EV + Shield

Well, if such a change was made it could be such that the "secondary dodges" could get less of a step-down than shields currently do.
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Dungeon Master

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Post Monday, 13th January 2014, 15:23

Re: EV + Shield

True, but fundamentally the effect of changes in this vein is to make EV worse against multiple attacks and (probably) better against single attacks. Is that desirable? If so, why? Is the goal to push people towards AC over EV more than the game already does? To make EV more of a niche defense? To make sure high-EV characters must kite more?

Also, if the stepdowns time out each time the player gets an action (correct me if I'm wrong), then faster actions would increase the effectiveness of dodging, further buffing haste and fast melee combat (especially quickblades). This may already be an issue with shields, but since shields are a secondary defense at best, it's less glaring.
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Pandemonium Purger

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Post Monday, 13th January 2014, 16:01

Re: EV + Shield

Lasty wrote:Massive nerf as in, dodging would no longer be an effective primary defense for characters, and thus all characters would need to go for AC defense. Increasing the amount of EV given by dodging wouldn't fix the problem, as it would just make the character absurdly invincible against situations that require the character to dodge once per turn, but still much more vulnerable against situations that force more than one dodge per turn.

Except high AC/EV is already the best out of very high AC or very high EV, and so it would only serve to cripple octopodes and felids.
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  Code:
!lg * won !DD-- min=turns -log
<Sequell> 20749. Bloax, XL24 VSTm, T:13320: http://crawl.lantea.net/crawl/morgue/Bloax/morgue-Bloax-20140907-000920.txt

Did you know that I like ruining crawl every now and then? Go check it out.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Monday, 13th January 2014, 17:16

Re: EV + Shield

Lasty wrote:True, but fundamentally the effect of changes in this vein is to make EV worse against multiple attacks and (probably) better against single attacks. Is that desirable? If so, why? Is the goal to push people towards AC over EV more than the game already does? To make EV more of a niche defense? To make sure high-EV characters must kite more?

Also, if the stepdowns time out each time the player gets an action (correct me if I'm wrong), then faster actions would increase the effectiveness of dodging, further buffing haste and fast melee combat (especially quickblades). This may already be an issue with shields, but since shields are a secondary defense at best, it's less glaring.

You're correct, currently the step down of shields gets reset on every player action. I've always felt like that was a pretty silly mechanic, it really should just reset every 1.0 AUT, regardless of how quickly you attack (Although I do understand the rationale, code-wise it's much less complex the way it's done currently).

What if a "stepdown" applied to all three of EV, SH, and AC each separately? that wouldn't push the players towards one build over the other, but would make shields have a slightly more level playing ground (Although frankly right now it's not the stepdown that makes shields worse, it's the fact that they don't have any effect on a lot of attacks you face late-game)
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Monday, 13th January 2014, 17:22

Re: EV + Shield

having several monsters attacking you is already very bad and doesn't need to be made worse; i also see no reason to nerf ac and ev in the first place, let alone so strongly (and in a spoilery way at that)

if i were going to make a change to sh the first thing i would do is change the formula so that the number actually corresponds to a similar block chance as the ev number does to a dodge chance (currently it is rare for this to be the case); this would also make shield enchantment less useless. i wouldn't really be opposed to just removing the penalty for already blocked attacks, either, although making sh stronger does exacerbate many of the existing problems with the way shield penalties work

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