I want to win with every God

[diviton]

My favorite aspect of DC:SS has always been the variety, specifically the variety offered with god selection. My long term goal with Crawl has been to win a game using every god. I've knocked 10 of them down, but now I'm getting into some of the less straight forward gods. I've made a topic like this a while ago, but I'd like advice on how to approach the remaining gods and what species/backgrounds would be good for each. The Gods I have yet to win with:

Lugonu
Nemelex Xobeh
Cheibriados
Jiyva
Elyvilon
Zin
Beogh
Xom

Now, the catch is, while I'm knocking down God victories, I'd also like to keep adding to the list of species/backgrounds I win with. This means I'd rather not use species/backgrounds I've already won with. I'm not 100% dead set on not reusing species or backgrounds, but it would be ideal unless I'm really limiting myself. Those species/backgrounds include:

Kobold Berserker
Deep Dwarf Necromancer
Mummy Summoner
Spriggan Enchanter
Deep Elf Wizard
Minotaur Fighter
Octopode Transmuter
Merfolk Ice Elementalist
Ghoul Monk

Since some Gods seem more suited for late game, or even extended (Jiyva, Zin) I'm thinking some of these wins will be 15 runers. My MuSu, SpEn, DEWz and MiFi were all 15 runers and the latter involved switching Gods. So, all that said, here are some ideas I had and some questions to go with them:

1. I was thinking Hill Orc Healer for Elyvilon and then switching to Zin for extended. Hill Orcs seem natural for both since each God really benefits from a Hill Orc's aptitude for Invocations. From what I understand, Ely is the most powerful and reliable God to win with, but I don't know if this includes extended, which is why I considered switching to Zin as an option, especially since I'd receive no punishment for switching. My main concern with this is that I might become reliant on healing myself and really start to miss it after switching to Zin. Maybe it would be a better idea to just play 3 runers with each God individually?

2. For Beogh, I was thinking Lava Orc. I initially thought this would be dumb because my fire would hurt my allies, but apparently Beogh suppresses your heat aura? Does this mean it would be impossible for me to hit my allies? Also, does swinging an axe hit nearby allies, or are they impervious to your weapon, for some reason? I'm guessing the former, but hoping for the latter.

3. For Chei, I was thinking Naga... something. Maybe a warper. I know people say that while Naga's seem like an obvious choice for Chei worship, they're actually not very good at it. Fitting the theme of playing a slow character and worshipping a slow God is appealing to me, but I realize such themes don't matter much in Crawl. Open to ideas here.

4. Jiyva seems like an extended god also. Unlikely I'll find an early altar and it's my understanding that converting to him early on isn't exactly a good idea. I remember reading some fun tricks with jellies consuming stacks of items causing you to recover tons of HP while wailing on Pan Lords. Seems kinda fun. I have no idea what to pick with this character, but Demonspawn seems like a fun one for all the random mutation goodness.

I know this topic is long and a lot of you might find the idea of sitting around and thinking of species/background combinations for my remaining gods not worth your time and that's fair enough. I just like consulting this board for just about every Crawl related thing that pops into my mind and if it's worth your time, I'd appreciate any input on all, or just some of the Gods and what combinations I should use.

[Sar]

Chei in my experience works "well" (as in, it's not the best choice but it's okay) with backgrounds that start with a book that contains damage-dealing spells and high-HP races - conjurers benefit from Int bonus a lot and everybody benefits from Dex bonus. Oh, and with AM, I guess.
Jiyva is actually really good early, the problem is finding an altar.
Nemelex works with pretty much anything, but you'll probably want to pick something with a decent start because it takes some time to build Evo and piety to get some decks.
Shame you already won a Mummy, MuCK is great fun!

[XuaXua]

Try Xom first and between every win till you get frustrated.

[diviton]

I was actually considering reusing Mummy for my eventual Chaos Knight win since winning with Xom is obviously a challenge run kind of thing and if you're gonna do a challenge run, you might as well go big. If I do decide to not reuse Mummies, I was also thinking Human.

As for winning with him first, I have this tendency to beat my head against a wall until I finally win with a combo. Eveny single combo I've won with, I never played anything besides said combo until I actually won. The one exception to this is DrAK, which I still haven't won with. I switched to GhMo for some reason and stuck with it because I liked it.

[Arrhythmia]

I think it's a shame you've won a kobold, as KoAK was one of my favourite wins. The distortion quickblade was, while definitely not the best weapon I could have used, very fun.

[Hirsch I]

I love going HOMo, it really expands your possibilities.
but seriously, HOMo of Beogh is interesting: you can leave every weapon to your followers, focus on UC, and lead them like a true messiah, smiting and punching like true orcs once did.
Zin is pretty nice for a HOMo, because less money matters little, the extra piety is pretty nice, and UC can kill pretty much everything you cripple with recite, so it is not thaaaaat hard. the early game is a little tough, tho.

[tompliss]

3. For Chei, I was thinking Naga... something. Maybe a warper. I know people say that while Naga's seem like an obvious choice for Chei worship, they're actually not very good at it. Fitting the theme of playing a slow character and worshipping a slow God is appealing to me, but I realize such themes don't matter much in Crawl. Open to ideas here.

You don't need to play a Naga to get soemthing out of Chei. Nagas clearly aren't the easiest race (low dodging AND armor skill). And chei really doesn't make the early game easier (slowing you while you don't get anything out of the low early stat bonus, not dealing high damage with abilities because of low invo,...).
I would advice going for a "easy early" specie with chei, preferably something tanky melee (Gr or Tr are obvious melee choices) or a ranged/caster so you don't get penalized by taking more turns to go in melee.

Oh, and by the way, when first read your thread title and introduction, I though you wanted to win a game in which you would go for all the gods one after the other.
THAT would be a real challenge

[Lasty]

If you want Xom to be less of a challenge, try TrCk. Trolls are strong enough to survive a bit of chaos, and unarmed combat means avoiding some of Xom's most frustrating pranks.

As for Zin, he makes a decent early-game god as well. Recite is decently powerful now, Vitalization is a decent buff, and Sanctuary and Imprison are two very powerful lifesavers. He's great for formicids, if you want to try that race out.

Logonu is decent for any race, but works particularly well for races that need a bit of time to get going, since you start with a better-than-average weapon and get to banish early-game threats like dangerous uniques and hydras.

Ely and Nemelex are both very strong and can be used with just about any race without particular trouble.

Others have already given reasonable advice on Chei.

[Klown]

Lugonu (Gargoyle AK, tank everything, banish everything.)
Nemelex Xobeh (DDAr, pure evo card blaster.)
Cheibriados (DEFE)

[dirtywick]

I like GhAr of Nemelex. It's an easy early game with the wands you have and strong UC. Blind drawing destruction is OK because the only thing you have to worry about is legendary spark until you get rElec. If you go UC you can sac basically everything including food and EW scrolls and potions of cure/beneficial/mutation. Believe it or not, there are a lot of chunks in the game. Only eat enough chunks to keep rot off and you still get plenty of summoning too.

[1010011010]

I'm also doing a almost identical challenge: win with every god + no god, each with a different species.
So far I've won all but Xom and an atheist run (Xom must be CK)

just some combination ideas
so far I've won (in score order):
MuWz of Sif Muna
TrMo of Jiyva
SpVM of Vehumet
DrAK of Lugonu
OgHu of the Shining One
DsSk of Makhleb
LOFi of Zin
DEFE of Cheibriados
FoFi of Okawaru
VpEn of Ashenzari
HaBe of Trog
MiFi of Nemelex Xobeh
DjDK of Yredelemnul
MfGl of Kikubaaqudgha
GrHe of Elyvilon
HOPr of Beogh
FeCj of Fedhas

mind you I tried to match "easy" species with "harder" gods so some may look sub optimal and there has been changes to the game since I started.

[Tiktacy]

Based off of my experience, a NaVM of Chei is probably your best bet. Venom mages have very easy early game and chei's boost in strength and dex will make fighting in melee much easier(I would use unarmed combat or a polearm).

If you do choose to go venom Mage, being prepared for poison resistant enemies is essential, so training some weapon skill early is a requirement. Use bend time to slow spiny toads, save slouch and powerful wands for emergencies and hydras. Having at least 5 invocations by or part way through lair is a good idea. I usually stop at around 8-ish invocations and then start investing in other things, I try to go for 10-14 by zot though.

Using a different elemental magic besides poison is probably best, I usually only invest enough into poison magic to get toxic radiance then start investing in melee and defense unless I found a really good book(like book of fire or book of ice) that I think can get me through the rest of the game. You might want to consider getting a shield before vaults since you only need 15 skill to get rid of the large shield penalties for a naga.

I don't quite remember when I usually start, but building up dodging is huge for this character since he will have stupid amounts of dexterity. Use dragon armor late game, fire dragon is probably the one you will want since your default armor likely won't have more than just rF+.

Never forget you have slouch or his other abilities, utilize them if you ever think their is a chance you won't survive the next few turns.

I probably missed a lot of stuff since I haven't played it in 5ever, so feel free to add add in something.

[TehDruid]

There's a huuuge difference between playing A MuCK and a CK of any other race. It's not about going big, it's about going boom (because your head will explode out of pure frustration trying the combo). You have to be extremely lucky to win a MuCK imo, because one long confusion (or chain confusions) will utterly destroy you if it happens at the worst possible situation. I'm saying this after winning 4 non Mummy characters that spent A LOT of time under Xom... I've tried MuCK (without scumming on D:1) and it's just pure frustration. Even if you get a good rod from Xom, or luck into an early powerful fixedart or randart, or even something more basic, like a whip of electrocution, the odds are so against you it's not even funny.

[Tiktacy]

There's a huuuge difference between playing A MuCK and a CK of any other race. It's not about going big, it's about going boom (because your head will explode out of pure frustration trying the combo). You have to be extremely lucky to win a MuCK imo, because one long confusion (or chain confusions) will utterly destroy you if it happens at the worst possible situation. I'm saying this after winning 4 non Mummy characters that spent A LOT of time under Xom... I've tried MuCK (without scumming on D:1) and it's just pure frustration. Even if you get a good rod from Xom, or luck into an early powerful fixedart or randart, or even something more basic, like a whip of electrocution, the odds are so against you it's not even funny.

Going for a pure stabber strategy makes MuCK much easier. You spend much less time in combat(less time you are vulnerable to a poorly timed confusion) and chaos short swords work wonders with the combination. I get at LEAST to orc:4 and lair:8 with that strategy in most of my games. Also, you can find "stabbing hexes" in at least half the books in crawl, and they are usually really cheap to get online too.

[TehDruid]

Good but I can't stand backstabbers. -.- They require too much patience, I think. xD

[dck]

I can't help but to mention tictacky's post is complete bollocks. CKs that want to win shouldn't use their chaos weapons past the time virtually anything else becomes available and MuCK being the weakest of all CKs does not change this. Chaos weaponry isn't good until you have the power to deal with its possibly horrible outcomes (as a Mu it is unclear you'll ever be really ready to deal with these).

Also I think the "best" way to win MuCK is using almost literally everything moderately advantageous the dungeon throws your way and hoping it'll be actually a lot of things so you can be tough enough to survive things xom may do. Another important thing is to rely on chance as little as possible: simple things that should be available to you and are good like dire flails, tla etc will help you massively because they bring you to a moderate standard of power and from there you can only go up.
Efficient use of things you find aside, what keeps MuCKs alive is being aware of things Xom may do at any point. He could teleport you while you're in Snake: $, he could confuse you with a titan and a fire giant in sight, he could flat our paralyze you for a bit while fighting. Try to be aware of these things and do your best to not stay for a long time in situations where a single xom action can screw you up.

Oh and this is fairly obvious but evokers in general can be used under confusion and are absolutely great, particularly sacks of spiders and fans.

[Tiktacy]

I can't help but to mention tictacky's post is complete bollocks. CKs that want to win shouldn't use their chaos weapons past the time virtually anything else becomes available and MuCK being the weakest of all CKs does not change this. Chaos weaponry isn't good until you have the power to deal with its possibly horrible outcomes (as a Mu it is unclear you'll ever be really ready to deal with these).

Also I think the "best" way to win MuCK is using almost literally everything moderately advantageous the dungeon throws your way and hoping it'll be actually a lot of things so you can be tough enough to survive things xom may do. Another important thing is to rely on chance as little as possible: simple things that should be available to you and are good like dire flails, tla etc will help you massively because they bring you to a moderate standard of power and from there you can only go up.
Efficient use of things you find aside, what keeps MuCKs alive is being aware of things Xom may do at any point. He could teleport you while you're in Snake: $, he could confuse you with a titan and a fire giant in sight, he could flat our paralyze you for a bit while fighting. Try to be aware of these things and do your best to not stay for a long time in situations where a single xom action can screw you up.

Oh and this is fairly obvious but evokers in general can be used under confusion and are absolutely great, particularly sacks of spiders and fans.

I can't help but mention dck has actually never tried a stabbing strategy with MuCK before, so his opinions on it are completely theoretical and not practically accurate.

The rest of his post took the words right out of my mouth, use everything the game gives you and you eventually succeed.

[Tiktacy]

For nemelex, I would recommend VpEn of nemelex. I play that combo whenever I'm sick of losing.

(Message me if you are interested in more in depth ideas on utilizes nemelex with Vp)

[njvack]

Chei-wise, I'll once again bang the drum for TrEE^Chei. The stat boosts are super useful (you'll actually have decent EV and getting Shatter up isn't too hard and both dex and str help with unarmed). The ranged attacks are essential for Chei, and it's probably the best way to make Statue Form actually good should you find it. And in the beginning when Chei's drawbacks are upon you but the benefits not so much, you're still a troll.

[Siegurt]

Yeah, one of my most fun Chei runs was a Tr (I played a transmuter, but similar logic applies)

[Tiktacy]

Chei-wise, I'll once again bang the drum for TrEE^Chei. The stat boosts are super useful (you'll actually have decent EV and getting Shatter up isn't too hard and both dex and str help with unarmed). The ranged attacks are essential for Chei, and it's probably the best way to make Statue Form actually good should you find it. And in the beginning when Chei's drawbacks are upon you but the benefits not so much, you're still a troll.

I have actually had a lot of trouble with this combo for some reason, I don't really get why though, maybe it's just bad luck.

[dck]

never tried a stabbing strategy

I wouldn't be generous enough to call "hit things with a chaos weapon and hope they get confused or paralyzed instead of berserk or invis, then hope I find the books I want" a strategy.
Nor do I think anyone should try such an abomination.

[One-Eyed Jack]

Maybe you like xomscum upper floors until everything falls asleep again

[njvack]

I have actually had a lot of trouble with this combo for some reason, I don't really get why though, maybe it's just bad luck.

Hm, what generally kills you? I felt like once I got used to essentially never trying to move in combat, it was pretty straightforward. Bend time is quite good -- it's like haste versus melee threats.

[Tiktacy]

never tried a stabbing strategy

I wouldn't be generous enough to call "hit things with a chaos weapon and hope they get confused or paralyzed instead of berserk or invis, then hope I find the books I want" a strategy.
Nor do I think anyone should try such an abomination.

Are you high? You use the initial chaos weapon to supplement for your lack of stealth until you get high enough skill to get stabs regularly or acquire something else to supplement it(like wands or spells). You then replace it with a branded short blade, optimally one of elec or distortion. Using a short sword of chaos in lair sounds completely bollocks, using a stabbing strategy to help work out several kinks in your armor does not.

[Tiktacy]

I have actually had a lot of trouble with this combo for some reason, I don't really get why though, maybe it's just bad luck.

Hm, what generally kills you? I felt like once I got used to essentially never trying to move in combat, it was pretty straightforward. Bend time is quite good -- it's like haste versus melee threats.

Usually confusion or early uniques. Bees also hurt a lot too.

[battaile]

Are you high?

being polite is always the optimal choice.

[dck]

So you start games over and over until you get the specific weapon you want and optimally an early ring of invis or a cloak of darkness or an En book, meanwhile use your short sword of chaos to hit and berserk things as a MuCK to "compensate your lack of stealth". And if none of the specific things you want show up by D: 9 I guess you just continue onwards to become the mummy ninja, master of chaotic stabbing strategies, berkserker of manticores.
While entertaining, I think I'm done with this bullshit.

[njvack]

Usually confusion or early uniques. Bees also hurt a lot too.

Bees do suck until you have Slouch online. Bend Time, wands, and such. For god's sake don't try to move; remember only your movespeed is ruined, action speed is normal.

I don't know how you're dying much to confusion -- curing should work normally for you and early confusion isn't *that* common.

[diviton]

TrEE of Chei sounds pretty cool. Never used any of those.

Also, Vampire of Nemelex sounds cool, but is there a different background, since I've already won with an Enchanter?

[One-Eyed Jack]

VpAr sounds ok. You get wands to help out earlygame and you can use the evo skill on nemelex

[Tiktacy]

So you start games over and over until you get the specific weapon you want and optimally an early ring of invis or a cloak of darkness or an En book, meanwhile use your short sword of chaos to hit and berserk things as a MuCK to "compensate your lack of stealth". And if none of the specific things you want show up by D: 9 I guess you just continue onwards to become the mummy ninja, master of chaotic stabbing strategies, berkserker of manticores.
While entertaining, I think I'm done with this bullshit.

After carefully weighing my options and reading some of your recent posts, I have concluded that the best thing for me to do is put you on my foe list. You just make strawman arguments and purposely misinterpret what I say, it will be better this way.

Usually confusion or early uniques. Bees also hurt a lot too.

Bees do suck until you have Slouch online. Bend Time, wands, and such. For god's sake don't try to move; remember only your movespeed is ruined, action speed is normal.

I don't know how you're dying much to confusion -- curing should work normally for you and early confusion isn't *that* common.

Hmm, maybe it wasn't confusion and bees then? I haven't played that combo in a while. I think it was just getting swarmed on wide open levels, I never had that problem with other Chei combos though.

[crate]

just btw i dont think naga of chei is very good.

As far as races which benefit the most from chei go, ghoul is probably at the top of the list, but since ghoul is kind of bad to start with it's not actually the easiest. Troll of chei is almost certainly the easiest since it's a troll.

[njvack]

The one nice thing about Na^Chei is the innate ranged attack. But yeah, just take a background that gives you a ranged attack.

[Tiktacy]

The one nice thing about Na^Chei is the innate ranged attack. But yeah, just take a background that gives you a ranged attack.

After doing some testing, I can confirm TrEE^chei is ndeed a powerful(but incredibly boring) combination. Now that I think about it, I think it was DDEE of makhalib that was giving me trouble, I never played a TrEE before apparently. X3

Nagas are a good species aptitude and stats wise, they also start with poison resistance, and are inherently big yet still stealthy. Chei is good with them because he takes out their weaknesses and turns them into strengths. Nagas are by no means the best species, but a naga of Chei is some of the most fun I've ever had in crawl.

Are you high?

being polite is always the optimal choice.

... You are right battaile, that was rude of me. I apologize, I guess my frustration with dck was getting the better of me and I'll do my best to prevent that in the future.

[WalkerBoh]

Trolls are great candidates for jiyva also. Easy to survive godless through lair and convert to jiyva at the slime entrance.

[Hirsch I]

Are you high?

being polite is always the optimal choice.

... You are right battaile, that was rude of me. I apologize, I guess my frustration with dck was getting the better of me and I'll do my best to prevent that in the future.

well, being an optimal player is kinda hard, anyway

[Tiktacy]

Beogh is the worst god in the game IMO. Not really even because he isn't powerful, but because the gameplay becomes slow and tedious by midgame.

I would just ignore trying to level up early casters and go for just melee guys, they are easier to use and you don't have to always be a stressing out over not losing them.

I don't think this is optimal play, but I would do it just for the sake of keeping your sanity. This of course, does come down to opinion, so feel free to do otherwise if you don't feel the same way.


And yeah, slime trolls are pretty neato.

[Sar]

I usually only invest enough into poison magic to get toxic radiance then start investing in melee and defense unless

While getting some Dodging early sounds like a good idea with Chei, not getting Venom Bolt ever doesn't, as it's a pretty good spell in my experience for killing things that are not outright poison immune. It deals enough damage to spinies and hydras to be an effective option against those things, for example.

I can't help but mention dck has actually never tried a stabbing strategy with MuCK before, so his opinions on it are completely theoretical and not practically accurate.

I can't help but mention that Tiktacy has never actually won a MuCK before (while dck won one online, on his first try even), so his opinions on it are completely theoretical and not practically accurate.

[Tiktacy]

I usually only invest enough into poison magic to get toxic radiance then start investing in melee and defense unless

While getting some Dodging early sounds like a good idea with Chei, not getting Venom Bolt ever doesn't, as it's a pretty good spell in my experience for killing things that are not outright poison immune. It deals enough damage to spinies and hydras to be an effective option against those things, for example.

I can't help but mention dck has actually never tried a stabbing strategy with MuCK before, so his opinions on it are completely theoretical and not practically accurate.

I can't help but mention that Tiktacy has never actually won a MuCK before (while dck won one online, on his first try even), so his opinions on it are completely theoretical and not practically accurate.

This is correct, I've never won a MuCK before. It is not completely theoretical though, I've used it and gotten quite far before dying a stupid death that was entirely my fault.

As far as practically accurate, I'm speaking from experience, so I don't know how it could be any more practically accurate.

[Sar]

"I have this really good strategy, I never managed to win with it (for totally unrelated reasons, of course), but it's really good" is not very convincing, sorry.

[Tiktacy]

"I have this really good strategy, I never managed to win with it (for totally unrelated reasons, of course), but it's really good" is not very convincing, sorry.

Good thing I never said that or anything like it then.

(I would put you on my foe list, but unlike dck, you usually have something useful to say, you just don't seem to like me very much)

[Sar]

"I have this really good strategy, I never managed to win with it (for totally unrelated reasons, of course), but it's really good"

Going for a pure stabber strategy makes MuCK much easier.

I've never won a MuCK before

I've used it and gotten quite far before dying a stupid death that was entirely my fault

Yes you did.

[Tiktacy]

"I have this really good strategy, I never managed to win with it (for totally unrelated reasons, of course), but it's really good"

Going for a pure stabber strategy makes MuCK much easier.

I've never won a MuCK before

I've used it and gotten quite far before dying a stupid death that was entirely my fault

Yes you did.

"I have a really good strategy that has worked for me really well in the past. I'm not a very good player, so I lose regularly due to bad decision making, but even this strategy has gotten me far."

Anybody can make things sound exactly the way you want them too.

[Sar]

So you admit you are not a very good player. Okay. Better players than you explained, multiple times, why that strategy is not actually very good. Yet you are convinced it is good.

Hey, can you just ignore me, like you did with dck? This way I can attack your badvice (so that no one would be tempted to waste their time following it) without getting into those tiresome semantics arguments with you. Win/win!

[Tiktacy]

So you admit you are not a very good player. Okay. Better players than you explained, multiple times, why that strategy is not actually very good. Yet you are convinced it is good.

Hey, can you just ignore me, like you did with dck? This way I can attack your badvice (so that no one would be tempted to waste their time following it) without getting into those tiresome semantics arguments with you. Win/win!

These better players you speak of have shown multiple times that they have no idea what I'm talking about. You, for example, don't seem to have the slightest idea how to work a MuCK stabbing strategy, based off of what you've shown me.

[Arrhythmia]

You, for example, don't seem to have the slightest idea how to work a MuCK stabbing strategy, based off of what you've shown me.

Well it's a good thing that you very clearly don't too.

[Sar]

That is because that "strategy" is pure garbage, like any "strategy" that works on an assumption RNG will be kind enough to spawn some very specific items.

[Tiktacy]

That is because that "strategy" is pure garbage, like any "strategy" that works on an assumption RNG will be kind enough to spawn some very specific items.

I've never had a game where a branded shortblade didn't spawn before lair. Ever.

[Sar]

You need more than a branded short blade to be a "pure stabber". You need some form of invisibility, and ideally some way of dealing with SInv enemies.