Skald and -cast...

[mopl]

I have this

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+13,+13 sword of the Doom Knight {pain, -Cast MR+}

available in shop for ~3000gp
I'm at the beginning of an HESk, relying on Spectral Weapon to deal with foes...
I intend to worship Oka

Should this weapon make pe play this game more as a fighter ?

[dck]

You probably won't have the money for it in a good while.
It's a great weapon, although it's also annoying because casting buffs means hitting ' a lot more often.
I'd just keep playing as I intended to; judge it by the time you have 3k gold (and don't overlook anything immediately useful to buy in the meantime).

[duvessa]

It takes 0.3 turns to wield or unwield a weapon. -Cast on Doom Knight is not really a big deal aside from being kind of annoying, and it's a pretty ridiculous weapon for this sort of character so you probably want to buy it when you can.

[Siegurt]

It does forbid spectral weapon unfortunately though.

[dck]

+13 gs of pain is well worth spectral though.

[pickled_heretic]

-cast is a deal breaker for a skald. Spectral weapon is too good. And pain brand, seriously? I would rather have slicing.

[Hirsch I]

what are you talking about? Pain is just awesome! but you'd need to train necromancy for it, of course.

[pickled_heretic]

RN+ negates pain brands. Its fine in the early game but by the time he can afford the price tag he may as well spend it on wands or something.

[Hirsch I]

most stuff does not have rN until the ascension so it is always useful. unless you are doing extended, but that does not matter.

[pickled_heretic]

If I spend 3000 on a branded weapon that I will be using for a 3 rune game I will want it to be a little better than worthless against OoF and aliches.

[Sar]

+13 gs is hardly what I would call worthless.
If you get lucky enough you will also find Dispel Undead, which solves alich problem just nicely.

[pickled_heretic]

You would probably deal more damage with an unbranded longsword and spectral weapon against OoF.

Like I said... Worthless

[Sar]

The problem with using spectral vs. oofs is that one oof fireball and you have no spectral anymore.
Doom Knight deals almost twice as much damage vs. an oof as a +9 long sword of slicing, though (5.3-5.5 vs. 9.9 at 18 LBlades and 18 Fighting), so here's that. I would like to test it with spectral but I don't know how to, is having spectral active when you initiate fsim enough?

[Hirsch I]

the damage the spectral weapon takes is shared with you, so casting it against an OoF will turn you into badly burnt dead meat fast. and it wont last enough to actually hit the damn thing.

[cerebovssquire]

Not to mention that judging weapons by how well they perform in Zot when you can buy them well before Zot makes no sense. Zot is not some monumental challenge you need to specifically prepare for, especially on a character that casts spells. Here is how you do zot on a character that casts spells but can't kill OoFs: buff, haste, teleport, apport orb, teleport. That being said, a +13 great sword kills OoFs just fine.

[XuaXua]

R-R-R-RISE FROM THE DEAD!

[battaile]

Not to mention that judging weapons by how well they perform in Zot when you can buy them well before Zot makes no sense.

My strategy makes no sense.

[pickled_heretic]

For a 3 rune game when exactly do you expect to have 3000 gold if not nearly when you are ready to enter zot? Spectral weapon is the closest this game has to dual wielding and is by far the largest damage increase available for a single spell used by a melee character. The 25% additional damage you take from the occasional fireball is a joke compared to the nearly doubled damage potential. An orb of fire can't fireball you if it is dead.

[Hirsch I]

man, there are very experienced players telling you that you are wrong. please, just move on.

[cerebovssquire]

For a 3 rune game when exactly do you expect to have 3000 gold if not nearly when you are ready to enter zot?

Before I get my first rune probably. Right after Orc if I get an acquirement scroll and don't get lucky with gold acquirement (Min=220, Max=5520, Mean=1218, Median=880, Std=911), which is a reasonable option if the gold is going to buy you doom knight.

[pickled_heretic]

No spectral weapon on a skald is like a transmuter without blade hands. Can you win the game? Of course... But it is beyond asinine.

I learned enough from fsim and the str/Dex discussion to realize that most 'experienced players' are clearly speaking from experience of a different era of crawl.

[dck]

Just for sanity's sake I'll assume this thread is just for laughs and no one is really saying a plus THIRTEEN great sword of PAIN is anything short of amazing for anyone.

[cerebovssquire]

Just for sanity's sake I'll assume this thread is just for laughs and no one is really saying a plus THIRTEEN great sword of PAIN is anything short of amazing for anyone.

just imagine if it was a great sword of slicing, hoo boy

[pickled_heretic]

Here comes the troll patrol. Be sure to read the title of the thread, too.

[cerebovssquire]

Here comes the troll patrol. Be sure to read the title of the thread, too.

If you are referring to -cast that is not an issue. Weapon wielding/unwielding does not take a long time, it's just annoying. I could see an argument not to use it because you don't want to put up with pressing w- or a macro all the time, but the weapon's power level is barely diminished by -cast.

[pickled_heretic]

Spectral weapon dissipates as soon as you switch weapons. That's what the whole gripe was about, if you had actually read the thread, but I guess a blue name exempts you from having to read.

[dck]

So, just out of curiosity. Have you just never wielded a well enchanted great sword or a badly enchanted great sword of pain?
Because this is the perfect mix of both and likely the best weapon the OP will find in his game.

[Hirsch I]

if I found this on any char capable of wielding it I would have a crawlgasm, for sure. not being capable of using a level 3 spell to use this thing is not a big deal, really. pain is awesome even if it is on a 0 -5 club, in a +13 GS it is... oh yeah.

[pickled_heretic]

Have you ever wielded a decently enchanted weapon while using spectral weapon?

[dck]

Indeed, it's very much inferior to both things I mentioned and more annoying.

[pickled_heretic]

Yeah. Nearly doubling your damage output is clearly inferior to +5 slaying and a pain brand.

[Volteccer_Jack]

Against targets that are pain-vulnerable, which is the majority of monsters even in Zot, Doom Knight is far and away better than any weapon you are likely to find. And even if you find something better than a +13 great sword to hit orbs of fire with, nothing is stopping you from hitting ' so I have no idea why you are even trying to maintain this argument.

[moocowmoocow]

Pickled heretic can you stop turning every advice thread into a drawn out argument please. Even if you are right (I don't agree in this case), you've already given your advice so it's available to help or hinder whoever wants it. There's no need to contradict every critical response you get.The fact that you get so many should tell you that maybe your position isn't so certain as you make it.

[pickled_heretic]

Because, for the third fucking time, ' kills your spectral weapon and spectral weapon with a fucking sharpened butter knife does more damage.

[wheals]

Because, for the third fucking time, ' kills your spectral weapon and spectral weapon with a fucking sharpened butter knife does more damage.

What spectral weapon? The one you made while wielding Doom Knight? How about pressing ', THEN zc or whatever key spectral weapon is bound to. Also, I think you're overestimating Spectral Weapon. It is amazing, but a bad weapon * 2 is very often worse than just one amazing weapon.

[pickled_heretic]

Why would you even waste the gold if you knew you could do more damage with a piece of dungeon scrap you found on the floor and enchanted a few times?

[Hirsch I]

I just discovered that the foes list is awesome to keep your sanity. now I'm a happier man.

[wheals]

I decided to fsim this (vs stone giant). +6 Great sword of slicing, 12 fighting and 20 long blades, XL 17 (around the time you'll get 3000 gold):

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            AvHitDam | MaxDam | Accuracy | AvDam | AvTime | AvSpeed | AvEffDam
 Attacking:     11.9 |     45 |      93% |  11.2 |    70  |  1.43 |     15.9
 Defending:     21.0 |     44 |      68% |  14.4 |   100  |  1.00 |     14.4


Sword of the Doom Knight, 20 necro:

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            AvHitDam | MaxDam | Accuracy | AvDam | AvTime | AvSpeed | AvEffDam
 Attacking:     22.3 |     58 |      94% |  21.1 |    70  |  1.43 |     30.1
 Defending:     21.3 |     44 |      69% |  14.9 |   100  |  1.00 |     14.9


Doom Knight does approximately twice as much damage. A spectral weapon is not quite going to double your damage, though, because to-hit and AC are applied twice, and it takes a while to get where it needs to be, and because it can die, and so on. The spectral weapon is probably better in the short term, but it's clear that once you get some Necro skill Doom Knight is better.

[dck]

20 necro is a ton of necro though. 12 would be a more realistic amount and still beat it by far.
I mean, it's obvious for anyone who thinks for a minute that DK is leagues better, there's not need to tweak the numbers into making it look better than it already is.
Also, hasted pain weapons are quite something and it's more realistic to assume a HE has a +13 gs of pain, haste and 12 necro than 20 necro and no haste.

[pickled_heretic]

So its going to roughly tie at 20 necro against a high AC, pain vulnerable target against a +6 great sword of slicing?

...Spectral is even better than I thought. Fuck -cast

[Hirsch I]

not to say it does not increase the damage you take by 25% and will not suddenly reduce its damage to a half.
and works in corridors. and when silenced. and do not need you to spend a turn casting it every time the weapon dies.

[pickled_heretic]

Dealing damage quickly is the best defense, except for this exception right here for reasons.

[dirtywick]

not to say it does not increase the damage you take by 25% and will not suddenly reduce its damage to a half.
and works in corridors. and when silenced. and do not need you to spend a turn casting it every time the weapon dies.

It doesn't increase the damage you take by 25%, only when its hit. Considering monsters tend to ignore allies and move towards the player that's a bit misleading IMO. And there's like two things in the game that use silence and one of them is usually around a bunch of undead. Further haste works with the spell as it attacks when you do.

It seems to me the two are comparable. If there were other things available for purchase that would be immediately useful instead of saving the 3000g the amount of offense you're missing is pretty marginal and as the game progresses pain becomes less useful.

[Arrhythmia]

Personally, I wouldn't buy the pain-sword, mostly because 3000g is a big chunk of cash, and frankly I just find -cast too annoying to deal with, even though it's not actually a big deal on a weapon. If you do decide to buy it though, it'll probably be a better weapon than anything else you'll find, even without spectral weapon.

[Siegurt]

A spectral weapon is not quite going to double your damage, though, because to-hit and AC are applied twice, and it takes a while to get where it needs to be, and because it can die, and so on. The spectral weapon is probably better in the short term, but it's clear that once you get some Necro skill Doom Knight is better.

Actually AC and to-hit are already in the result "AvEffDam" so doubling that *would* be roughly accurate, if you were casting Spectral weapon at near-max spellpower (higher spellpower uses a larger percentage of your weapon skill)

Even so, it probably doesn't change the "doom sword is probably better" statement.

[damiac]

This is why debate is a good thing.

We just went from:

it's very much inferior to both things I mentioned and more annoying.

to:

So its going to roughly tie at 20 necro against a high AC, pain vulnerable target against a +6 great sword of slicing?

We went from saying a 3k gold sword was FAR SUPERIOR to the alternative of a less powerful weapon with spectral.
The "experienced players" repeatedly say that's true, and you'd be a moron to think any differently.
Then test data shows actually, they're pretty close to equal, and really with the high gold cost, the practical advice was the first advice given,

It's a great weapon, although it's also annoying because casting buffs means hitting ' a lot more often.
I'd just keep playing as I intended to; judge it by the time you have 3k gold (and don't overlook anything immediately useful to buy in the meantime).

This is what I keep talking about. These "experienced" players need to stop exaggerating so much. We get this echo chamber result, where "ever so slightly better, in the right circumstances" becomes "You're an idiot if you don't think this is the best thing ever"

Just because the guy disagreeing with your is rather... caustic... doesn't mean you should have the knee jerk reaction of just taking the far opposite viewpoint of his. Otherwise it makes you look less reliable.

I keep putting "experienced" in quotes only because that's the title being given to a certain group of players, not because I doubt their experience, by the way. I didn't mean that to be sarcastic.

[moocowmoocow]

They're "pretty close to equal" only on pain immune enemies. Those are few and far between unless your goal is extended, which the OP never said. It is highly annoying that pickled heretic says very questionable things as if they are absolutes: "-cast is deal breaker for Sk" "sword is worthless (against OoF)" "no spectral weapon is like transmuter without blade hands, both are asinine".

Crawl is very complex and it's easy to get confused by what is marginally better than what. The experienced players "exaggerating" I think is an attempt to simplify into generally sound principles. This is extremely helpful for inexperienced players. A general principle in this case might be: if you find a powerful weapon, use it. To argue that this weapon is not powerful is idiotic and unhelpful. If it had an insurmountable downside for this character, sure. But "you can't cast spectral weapon" does not qualify as a severe handicap.

[Sar]

spectral weapon with a fucking sharpened butter knife does more damage

Clearly it is experienced players that are exaggerating.

[dck]

"players"

[crate]

personally I would basically never spend 3k on a weapon but if i happened to find doom knight on a character that was using long blades I would very nearly always use it.

Also, there seem to be an awful lot of assumptions about spectral weapon being made in this topic. I don't know how it works, so I'll admit that. But does anyone else here actually know how much damage it deals? It would surprise me very much if it's as good as a second hit with your weapon.

(then again this is from the same mastermind who thought infusion was a good spell so perhaps I shouldn't be surprised if that turns out to actually be true)