Distortion: Bardiche or Demon Trident?

[diviton]

My current DrAK found a random +1, +0 Demon Trident in the Lair. Normally with this build, I've waited until the Orcish Mines and usually found a Bardiche to corrupt, but I've been wondering if a Demon Trident + shield might be better. The wiki says that Distortion damage is not based on the weapons base damage and as such, says it's best when faster weapons are branded with distortion. This is of course an advantage for the Demon Trident. Especially since damage itself isn't as important since more attacks means more chance of enemy banishment occurring... right? Lastly, the biggest problem I've been having with Draconians is their lack of armor makes them squishy. Fortunately I found Ozocubu's armor, but if I could also equip a shield, this means I'd be able to survive a little easier. Unless, of course, the added damage provided by a Bardiche would be preferred, since in Crawl, killing things fast is the best defense. Oh and there's also the nice fact that getting polearms to 14 instead of 26 frees me up to train other skills.

Anyway, everything I'm saying is purely theoretical as I've never used a Demon Trident. The DT seems preferable to the Bardiche on paper, but this is a decision I'd like to leave to you guys. Which should I corrupt on this kind of character?

[pratamawirya]

The wiki says that Distortion damage is not based on the weapons base damage and as such, says it's best when faster weapons are branded with distortion. This is of course an advantage for the Demon Trident.

Well. both can only be "quite fast", AFAIK, so speed isn't an issue here.

[headcrab0803]

I think if youre going bardiche you should go for the better brands like freezing flaming etc.. that works well with it's high base damage.

[Sandman25]

I would go with Demon Trident. There are too many good skills and Dr's polearms aptitude is not that good.

[diviton]

It's true that DT and Bardiche are both "quite fast" but that's after you get your polearms skill to 26 with the Bardiche. My Polearm skill is already 14, so I wouldn't need to raise it at all for the DT. And even with them both at "Quite fast" the DT is still faster by a bit.

Yeah, I'm going with Distortion, just because I want to fit the theme of this character. I'm playing an Abyssal Knight and I like the idea of using Distortion to match that flavor. Plus banishing things is always fun.

Good point about Draconian polearms skill being mediocre. Still want to hear more opinions but I think I'm gonna go DT.

[duvessa]

The wiki says that Distortion damage is not based on the weapons base damage and as such, says it's best when faster weapons are branded with distortion. This is of course an advantage for the Demon Trident.

Well. both can only be "quite fast", AFAIK, so speed isn't an issue here.

This is wrong. It is true that both are described as "quite fast" when at minimum delay, however, that descriptor is used for multiple different delays. A demon trident has a minimum delay of 6, and a bardiche has a minimum delay of 7. Similarly, every delay from 16 to 19 is described as "very slow."
When something in the game gives you identical information about two things, that does not mean those two things are themselves identical.

[diviton]

The wiki says that Distortion damage is not based on the weapons base damage and as such, says it's best when faster weapons are branded with distortion. This is of course an advantage for the Demon Trident.

Well. both can only be "quite fast", AFAIK, so speed isn't an issue here.

This is wrong. It is true that both are described as "quite fast" when at minimum delay, however, that descriptor is used for multiple different delays. A demon trident has a minimum delay of 6, and a bardiche has a minimum delay of 7. Similarly, every delay from 16 to 19 is described as "very slow."
When something in the game gives you identical information about two things, that does not mean those two things are themselves identical.

duvessa, what do you think? I just cleared Orc and found a Bardiche, so I have both options available. Which would you suggest I corrupt?

[duvessa]

If you actually have a demon trident then you should probably use that unless you already have a lot of polearms skill. Not because shields are particularly great but because 26 skill is a lot especially on a 0 apt species.

[pickled_heretic]

I like bardiches. I think the distortion brand should be treated like icing on the cake. Rather than thinking 'I should find a way to maximize Distortion's effectiveness' you should instead think 'I should deal the most damage possible' and treat the distortion like a nifty bonus.

The skill requirement for min delay is a good point, but I suppose it depends how you are building your drac. I tend to find that dracs have skill experience to spare in spite of poor apts, what with being unable to wear armor.

On the other hand I might just try using the demon trident for the fun of it since you have never used one before. You should be able to win with either one.

[wheals]

I don't really see how you can call draconians' skills "poor," what with having above-average apts in almost all skills. Also, as someone said earlier, if you're using a bardiche flaming/freezing might be a better brand than distortion especially versus ranged opponents; if you want to maximise bardiche damage, I'm not convinced the best way to that is using distortion.

[diviton]

I like bardiches. I think the distortion brand should be treated like icing on the cake. Rather than thinking 'I should find a way to maximize Distortion's effectiveness' you should instead think 'I should deal the most damage possible' and treat the distortion like a nifty bonus.

The skill requirement for min delay is a good point, but I suppose it depends how you are building your drac. I tend to find that dracs have skill experience to spare in spite of poor apts, what with being unable to wear armor.

On the other hand I might just try using the demon trident for the fun of it since you have never used one before. You should be able to win with either one.

That's a good point about being able to deal as much damage as possible, regardless of what is maximizing the effectiveness of Distortion. A Bardiche might have been more ideal, but I've decided to make this Draconian more defensively oriented because I've realized how frail they can be end game. I had a powerful Bardiche, with two Slaying Rings (+6, +4 and +5, +3) so if things were near me, they died, but the increase in ranged threats became a big problem late game. Yaktaur bolts and ranged magic was giving me a hard time in open areas because my Drac couldn't take a hit. Hopefully a decent SH value coupled with a more magically oriented Draconian (thanks to less skill investment in Polearms) will help me with those ranged threats. Especially since power really isn't that important with Distortion, since most things either get banished, or just teleport away and leave me alone. I'm working on Bolt of Cold to compliment this different DrAK method.

I went with the DT. I don't have access to any good shields. Just a little buckler, but getting shields to 5 shouldn't take long, so it'll do for now.

[Klown]

Dodging and stealth should help a bit.

quick side question, slightly on-topic for AK, if you banish, say, Rupert. If you end up in the abyss later, is there a chance to see him? Or is it just 'mwhahaha you're gone' ?

[variouselite]

Oh yeah you can meet banished enemies in abyss for sure

[diviton]

I got Banished by Louise and almost immediately encountered Nessos and Harold. I just left the Abyss with Lugonu's ability, so I didn't have to fight them. Interestingly enough, when I hit "ctrl + o" and look at the location of uniques, Nessos and Harold are no longer listed as being in The Abyss. Why is that? I didn't kill them.

Also, another question about distortion. Do you gain full experience when your weapon banishes an enemy, or is it diminished? If it is diminished, by how much?

Also, Lugonu's banishing ability. I know it's success scales with Invocations, but defensively, what stat does it check on the monsters end? Is their likelihood of resisting based on HD, MR, or something else?

[Zenonira]

According to the knowledge bots, Lugonu's banish checks monster MR, and banishing is basically considered killed by summons for purposes of experience (as in, the more damage you did before the banish, the more experience you get, up to 100%). I think minimum experience is 50%

[Tiktacy]

If you actually have a demon trident then you should probably use that unless you already have a lot of polearms skill. Not because shields are particularly great but because 26 skill is a lot especially on a 0 apt species.

I have never seen you give such a kind response to something minmay, was your mother watching or something?

[rebthor]

Why do you think minmay is mean? He's not, he's just brusque.

[Baldu3]

I have never seen you give such a kind response...

Comon, the guy has thousands of posts between accounts, vast majority are useful and/or funny.

I want a frown button besides the thank button for posts that focus on wrong things. Also a barf button for posts I strongly disagree with. Or maybe i should make super duper emoticon posts because my internet feeeliiinngsss maattteerr!!!

Back on topic: distortion is pretty fun on bardiche and demon trident, reaching really helps deal with the downsides of distortion. How is it working out for you?

[diviton]

It's working all right, but I'm underleveled because of all the involuntary banishing. I'm definitely noticing the difference in power from DT to Bardiche, but ah well. I managed to clear Snake Pits and get the rune at only level 17, which might be the lowest level I've ever grabbed a rune, but the way the dungeon is set up in 14, I don't have much of a choice. vaults are sealed and the Depths are scary.

I almost died. Got down to 1Hp and had to banish myself TWICE. Blew through quite a few consumables, but I survived after dropping to *** piety. Working on getting it back now. Some nasties in Shoals including Mara on one floor and another floor with Norris, Frances AND Polyphemus. Definitely afraid to explore that floor.