Unarmed Combat While Wielding Weapons

[chowderhaus]

Greetings!

I am wondering if unarmed attack speed (or anything else UA related) is affected adversely by wielding weapons? And if so, what aspect of the weapon is a factor, e.g. weapon speed, base attack delay, weight, etc. In my particular case, I have UC=11, LB=9 and am wielding a scimitar.

Bonus question: I am wearing leather armor, but am wondering how adversely upgrading to ring mail will affect my unarmed combat? According to the Wiki attack speed defaults to the base attack speed of 10 for most attacks? What armor skill do I need to negate the adverse affects of ring mail heavy armor? (I have armor skill 5 right now--training armor skill with leather armor is so slow... not playing trunk by the way).

[mikee]

I'm a little confused. How do expect to be 'fighting unarmed' at all when you are wielding a weapon? Are you referring to auxiliary attacks (e.g., headbutts, kicks)? Those are just a small bonus and have no great effect on melee with a scimitar.

If you are looking for advice on how to build this current character, though, I would suggest dropping the scimitar and punching things as your primary attack. With 11 UC, you would be doing decent damage that will only increase as your skill goes up. Since you're in 0.7, do not wear any armour heavier than leather.

[chowderhaus]

> I'm a little confused. How do expect to be 'fighting unarmed' at all when you are wielding a weapon? Are you referring to auxiliary attacks \
> (e.g., headbutts, kicks)? Those are just a small bonus and have no great effect on melee with a scimitar.

Okay, maybe I was a little confused. Yes, I am referring to auxilary attacks. I'm playing a DSNe and I just want to try and take advantage of the big ol' talons that I've got. I also managed to find a nice spiked helmet. In this situation are auxilary attacks are not worth it? My initial thinking was that a branded bladed weapon would be better than two naked fists.

> If you are looking for advice on how to build this current character, though, I would suggest dropping the scimitar and punching things as your primary
> attack. With 11 UC, you would be doing decent damage that will only increase as your skill goes up. Since you're in 0.7, do not wear any armour heavier > than leather.

Yeah, I guess I need advice on how to proceed from here. I have not found any low level transmutation spell books, nor any spell books with blade hands. So are you saying that my current strategy (long blades with auxiliary attacks) is a doomed one?

[mikee]

It's not necessary a doomed strategy, but it's certainly suboptimal. As I mentioned, auxiliary attacks don't have a great impact on your melee output, especially not compared to the huge amounts of xp you're pouring into them. Also, your fists are already better than the scimitar.I can give you an idea with some numbers probably.

* unarmed base damage for characters without claws is 3 + sklev. This is then multiplied a little bit by fighting skill and a negligible amount by strength.

* attack delay for unarmed attacks in light armour is 10 - (sklev/5). So with 11 skill, you would be punching for a little more than 14 damage, and it would take you 8/10 as long to hit as a normal speed monster with no weapon.

* attacking with a weapon uses the base damage of the weapon and is multiplied a little bit by fighting, weapon skill, and a negligible amount by strength. You can then expect +.5 more damage to be added for each damage enchantment. Finally, the damage is multiplied a little bit if your weapon has an appropriate brand. Notice that increasing weapon skill has a much lesser effect on damage than increasing unarmed skill.

* attack delay for weapons is the base delay of the weapon (examine it in game for this) - (sklev/2). Minimum delay is capped at 7 for a scimitar, and I'll explain why if you're interested. So with 9 skill, you will be hitting for about the same damage as with fists but with the same delay as a normal speed monster with no weapon.

So just by comparing these two types of attack, your fists would already outperform your scimitar. And as you put more xp into unarmed combat, they would become much more effective than the scimitar could ever be.

[chowderhaus]

Okay, so unarmed combat is generally better than weapons in every conceivable way?

Not to complicate things, but I just found a demon blade of flaming (don't know the enchantments yet). I'm a DS so this weapon seems rather swell to me. Should I still stick with unarmed combat?

[Megabass]

Well no, not really. You can't get brands, resistances, evocable abilities, or extra stats on your fists.

[mikee]

Okay, so unarmed combat is generally better than weapons in every conceivable way?

Not to complicate things, but I just found a demon blade of flaming (don't know the enchantments yet). I'm a DS so this weapon seems rather swell to me. Should I still stick with unarmed combat?

Not in every conceivable way. At high skill levels, unarmed combat will do more damage, and generally faster, than any weapon. There are two major drawbacks to it, though. It is very weak at low skill levels, and it requires a lot of xp to get it high enough to use it well. You already have it at 11, which is why I suggested you start using it.

The demon blade is also fine... it's probably about the same as or maybe a little better than your fists right now. But no matter which you choose, train *one* and not *both* skills.

[mikee]

Well no, not really. You can't get brands, resistances, evocable abilities, or extra stats on your fists.

Sure, these balance the two types of melee somewhat (mostly the branding - that other stuff is not really a big deal). Also, note that you can brand your fists with freezing or draining if you'd like via transmutations.