Should you do Elf:3 and Crypt:5?

[duvessa]

Actually nobody interested in winning should do crypt 5 or elf 3 nowadays.

[reaver]

I was rather surprsied to see this on the rune lock thread:

Actually nobody interested in winning should do crypt 5 or elf 3 nowadays.

Could I get some elaboration on this? Does this mean doing those branches at all has too large a risk/reward ratio, or does it just mean the branch ends? How does going for 15 runes/having the forest spawn/being particularly prepared for those branches change the equation? What does the "nowadays" mean, after the XP change? after the runelock? for the past several versions?

[Azrael]

Well, neither elf nor crypt have runes. Elf:3 is one of the more dangerous places in the game, what with all the crystal spears and banishment spells flying around, and crypt has ancient liches at the end. The exp and loot is nice, but the reward is, as you implied, not worth the risk, especially when they're not required to win (again, no runes).

[dck]

Basically yes, there is nothing in those branches you want if you can do them and doing them when you "need" a shot an various pieces of random loot which may or may not be complete arse is very risky and not worth it.

[crate]

Crypt doesn't exist to me, at least until curse skulls become something other than the most awful monster in the entire game. (Maybe this happened and I missed it.) (Forest also doesn't exist to me but it has many more problems.)

There are some times where doing elf is ok, but you should always be looking for something specific that you are likely to find in the elf loot. If that's not the case then you're in the wrong place.

[MrPlanck]

I usually do C5 and E3.

edit: but skip forest entirely unless I need to find Tomb

[Arrhythmia]

I feel Blade as a whole occupies the same design space that Crypt:5 and Elf:3 do and is open to the same criticisms they are.

[dirtywick]

Elf 3 often contains manuals, and various books and staves if you're looking for something of that nature and haven't found it yet. I don't find it particularly difficult to clear past XL 20 or so but it's layout is boring and elves are elves. Crypt is a bit of a loot crapshoot and can have some nasty ends. Neither is necessary at all, but if you haven't seen all the crypt ends there are some cool ones and worth checking out whether it's optimal or not.

[daggaz]

Elf 3 is really an easy job if you are decently prepared, I do it pretty much every game eventually. Lots of MR, rF, and conservation if you got it. Be able to deal lots of damage really fast, without waking up half the floor. Then just be good and cautious as usual, and the vaults are yours. Its usually worth while, I mean it happens but its pretty damn rare to not get a single item of use out of all that gear.

Honestly I think the fear is a bit overblown.. Banishment? By the time you are in Elf3, abyss is a joke. Crystal Spear? Is that a thing that elves cast? Usually they are bleeding out of their eyesockets the moment they come into sight..

[Sandman25]

Well, there can be exceptions.
1) bloodless uncannily stealthy uncannily resistant Vp with invisibility and silence.
2) spider rune is guarded by Arachne and swamp rune is guarded by Lernaean Hydra and you don't have rPois/!resistance/apportation/cTele.
These are not theoretical examples.

[dck]

A 3d34 conjuration casted by HD 15 guys who have blink isn't a risk you should downplay for people who are actually wondering when it is a good idea or not to do elf.
rF is completely useless against every one of the vault elves.
Hellfire hurts, the new life offering thing high priests do and bolts of draining from death mages/sorcs hurt, blademasters and particularly master archers are really dangerous as well.

[dck]

A Vp certainly has no need of anything from elf when he already has all of that.
Arachne's MR is shit and lerny doesn't sInv (and with ?vuln has shit MR as well).

[Sandman25]

I have just checked and unfortunately I don't have sources of invisibility. I think I will try to paralyze LH, I have one scroll of vulnerability in a shop.

Sorry for offtopic.

[Lasty]

Actually nobody interested in winning should do crypt 5 or elf 3 nowadays.

Really? I think I've lost a grand total of something like 2 characters to Elf:3 ever, and maybe 3 to Crypt:5, and I usually do both (when Crypt exists). Are you saying that the area is too dangerous, or that the rewards aren't good enough, or both, or something else?

[Lasty]

I do Elf:3 and Crypt:5 in almost every game (when they spawn), and I have lost maybe 2 characters to Elf ever, and maybe 3 to Crypt:5. Neither of these areas is all that hard if you prepare well and know what to expect.

Or maybe I just get absurdly lucky all the time.

[Sandman25]

I believe doing Elf 3 and Crypt 5 is a no-brainer in 15-rune game. Yes, I know that getting 4+ runes decreases chance of winning.

[Volteccer_Jack]

Actually nobody interested in winning should do crypt 5 or elf 3 nowadays.

Really? I think I've lost a grand total of something like 2 characters to Elf:3 ever, and maybe 3 to Crypt:5, and I usually do both (when Crypt exists). Are you saying that the area is too dangerous, or that the rewards aren't good enough, or both, or something else?

both

[Volteccer_Jack]

the value of loot is severely overrated and the danger of elves is severely underrated

[daggaz]

I still dont get all the hooplah, even with the new updates, Elf isnt that difficult. And no, I dont need a an ungodly level of stealth, either. Done it plenty of times with a full plate, axe wielding tank type character, for example. I mentioned fire resistance because there are plenty of fire based spells or ammo that get slung at you, its a useful thing to have in elf.

I honestly think Snake 5 is far more dangerous, at least if you are going to melee.

[Hurkyl]

The danger of Elf:3 is only underrated by people who underrate the danger of Elf:3.

Some builds have a much easier time. With Freezing Cloud and Conjure Flame, you can clear many endings without even seeing most of the elves.

[dck]

Literally no vault elf has any fire spell.

[crate]

Literally no vault elf has any fire spell.

need rF for the balrugs that get summoned, clearly

[duvessa]

  Code:

tsouns the Sorcerer (L18 DEFE), worshipper of Vehumet, slain by a warrior statue (a +4,+5 dwarven battleaxe of flaming) on Elf:3, with 182953 points after 31818 turns and 1:50:24.

[rebthor]

Where is NOPE when you need him?

[Konedar]

Sorry buy how can you compare Crypt 5 (ancient liches, curse skulls,... / small loot) with Elf 3 (super fragile elves / big loot)?
Elves die like flies to so many builds! Fireballs (+Vehumet = cakewalk), freezing clouds, LRD, antimagic weapon + hiding behind corner, silence, just to name the most obvious. Bolt spells are also ok.
With some MR and what I just mentioned the only dangerous ones are the master archers.

I'm not a top player but I clear elf 3 in every single game and I can't remember being killed by them even once. Ok when I was more noob and did it without any MR their banishment indirectly killed me a couple of times.

[Sandman25]

Sorry buy how can you compare Crypt 5 (ancient liches, curse skulls,... / small loot) with Elf 3 (super fragile elves / big loot)?
Elves die like flies to so many builds! Fireballs (+Vehumet = cakewalk), freezing clouds, LRD, antimagic weapon + hiding behind corner, silence, just to name the most obvious. Bolt spells are also ok.
With some MR and what I just mentioned the only dangerous ones are the master archers.

I'm not a top player but I clear elf 3 in every single game and I can't remember being killed by them even once. Ok when I was more noob and did it without any MR their banishment indirectly killed me a couple of times.

There are different ways to die in Elven Halls
1) Get 100+ damage from Deep Elf Annihilator
2) Get drained to red and have spells miscast too often
3) My recent death in Elven Halls - got Ice Fiend adjacent and Balrug adjacent on the opposite side so I am blocked and have no way to run (teleport is dangerous as I barely started clearing end vault), killed the summoner, the summoner got resurrected by Lost Soul (the Ice Fiend didn't disappear), killed the Ice Fiend, got Brimstone Fiend next turn, died in a couple of turns despite 59 AC, 25 EV and 200+ HP.

[Volteccer_Jack]

Elves die like flies to so many builds!

Elves die to literally any build, because they have low HP. This is the main contributor to the delusion that going to Elf is a good idea. The problem is that they also have things like Hellfire and Crystal Spear and Ice Fiends, things that kill any build.

Also Crypt 5 has good loot, and the number of monsters there that can single-handedly end you is usually considerably lower than Elf3.

I'm not a top player but I clear elf 3 in every single game and I can't remember being killed by them even once.

I do zot every single game and I've only died to an orb of fire once. Does that make orbs of fire easy?

[Lasty]

The question isn't "are elves easy?", it is "is going to elf 3 during a game a mistake?". Your reframing is "are orbs of fire easy?", and the answer is no, but the answer to "is going to zot 5 during a game a mistake?" is also no. Similarly, those of us who are saying we haven't lost characters to Elf:3 are saying that going there during a game is not a mistake because we get some loot and are not killed by elves, even if those elves are, in fact, dangerous.

The nastier elves and orbs of fire have this in common: they are dangerous and can kill unprepared players quickly, but their danger can be ameliorated and made tolerable by preparation and tactics.

[Sar]

Oh look, an annihilator, let me just put on my rCrystal ring...

[Sandman25]

Actually mistake does not necessarily include a death. I remember my character who almost died and was drained to red in Elven Halls 3. Eventually he cleared the whole level, cured draining and even got some nice loot but I still believe going to Elven Halls 3 was a mistake.

[Lasty]

Oh look, an annihilator. Let me stay out of LCS range and hit it with something longer-ranged, and/or use minions to block line of fire.

C'mon, Sar. You can do better than that.

[Sar]

I can't, I usually just hit them in the face and hope it works.
Well, and I mostly wanted to point out that oofs can be made much easier by a very obvious resistance (and one not so obvious one).

[Volteccer_Jack]

but the answer to "is going to zot 5 during a game a mistake?" is also no.

Only because going to Zot is MANDATORY. The whole point here is that Elf 3 is a giant pile of risky monsters that is completely unnecessary and with rewards that do not even come close to justifying the risk.

Let me stay out of LCS range

don't forget to stay out of Hellfire Burst range, too

or maybe you'll just put on your rF ring

[Lasty]

Only because going to Zot is MANDATORY. The whole point here is that Elf 3 is a giant pile of risky monsters that is completely unnecessary and with rewards that do not even come close to justifying the risk.

That's a valid point, but the counterpoint is that a few players have offered that if they have died in Elf:3, it is a distant memory from their early days playing the game, which undercuts the idea that the rewards don't justify the risk. These two competing points seem like the interesting part of this discussion.

Let me stay out of LCS range

don't forget to stay out of Hellfire Burst range, too

or maybe you'll just put on your rF ring

And this represents the less-interesting part of the conversation. I am certain that you understand that two different enemies may present risks that are best handled by different tactics, so I'm not sure why you're pretending that you don't. In case you genuinely do mean that you don't understand, the elves that throw hellfire do not also throw LCS, and for those particular elves, you are better off doing one of the following:

* Minimize time spent in LOS of a deep elf sorcerer or deep elf high priest. Both can summon dangerous demons as well as use hellfire.
* Try to engage deep elf high priests at melee range: if they hellfire you, they hit themselves as well, often killing them. They do 3d15 (avg 24), so if your health total is reasonably high, you can probably take at least 3 hits from this. This is basically just a high-damage smite that the smiter can't use when adjacent to you without dying.
* The same advice more or less applies to deep elf sorcerers, but sorcerers need LOS to hellfire you and thus can be screened by minions. Sorcerer hellfire does 3d20 (avg 31.5), making it more dangerous, but at melee range it also tends to kill the elf using it.

Like most other parts of the game, if you use the wrong tactics to manage an enemy or to manage how many enemies you interact with at once then you will probably have trouble. Pointing out that there are multiple different types of dangerous enemies in Elf:3 is not productive for this discussion.

[dirtywick]

What kind of character can't clear elf but can clear a Zot lung?

[crate]

It's not that you can't clear elf ... it's that the more game you play the more you are banking on not making a mistake, and the rewards for elf often aren't even going to realistically improve your character so there's no reason to go there. Hence my first post in this topic.

[dpeg]

crate: would removing 50% of the loot from D, Lair and Orc (say) sway your verdict about Elf and Crypt?

[sage]

crate: would removing 50% of the loot from D, Lair and Orc (say) sway your verdict about Elf and Crypt?

If you survived that far, odds are good that you don't need anything for Zot (save maybe if you're hard up for rF++). That said, making the hardest part of the game harder to cajole people into an optional lategame branch seems a little odd.

[Volteccer_Jack]

Like most other parts of the game, if you use the wrong tactics to manage an enemy or to manage how many enemies you interact with at once then you will probably have trouble. Pointing out that there are multiple different types of dangerous enemies in Elf:3 is not productive for this discussion.

In most other parts of the game, if you use the wrong tactics, you don't end up adjacent to an Executioner with 10 hp left on a level where scroll of blinking is random. Saying "as long as you're really, really careful and don't make any mistakes there's no problem" is a waste of time because that's basically always true.

crate: would removing 50% of the loot from D, Lair and Orc (say) sway your verdict about Elf and Crypt?

The only way you could change my opinion of Elf would be to make elves significantly less dangerous. Loot just isn't that important in the scheme of things. Not unless it's specifically tailored to my character's wishlist, but we all know how crawl doesn't like guarantees.

[crate]

crate: would removing 50% of the loot from D, Lair and Orc (say) sway your verdict about Elf and Crypt?

I do elf when doing elf is good for my character. I see nothing wrong with this state of affairs. It is good to do sometimes. It is probably more often than not a bad idea to clear elf but it is something like 75-25 or so. What's wrong with that? It's still much more lucrative than Blade.

I would not set foot in crypt if it had the Orb of Zot until curse skulls are changed.

edit: I've entered elf:$ 61 times in online games (55 wins, 1 quit, 5 deaths), and I have 151 official online wins. This seems fine to me.

edit2: To actually answer the question, yes I would do elf more often if loot elsewhere is decreased, since I would more often have a specific item (often ring of rF) that I am looking for in elf (kind of amusing that one of the items I most often look for in elf is one that others in this topic have suggested is a "prerequisite" of sorts for going into elf to begin with!). But I'm not sure this is actually a problem at all.

[rebthor]

Good thing elf is so safe and necessary... viewtopic.php?p=139326#p139326

[damiac]

Good thing elf is so safe and necessary... viewtopic.php?p=139326#p139326

OMG! One anecdotal death in elf:3?! That certainly proves your point.

I'd say Elf is worthwhile when you feel you have a strong enough character to survive a long abyss trip.
Is elf ever necessary? No. Neither is orc. But it's worthwhile (to me) when I feel I have a good chance at survival, since it's a huge EXP and loot pool. I've never been to the end of elf and not found at least one piece of equipment worth wearing.

[Mankeli]

crate: would removing 50% of the loot from D, Lair and Orc (say) sway your verdict about Elf and Crypt?

I do elf when doing elf is good for my character. I see nothing wrong with this state of affairs. It is good to do sometimes. It is probably more often than not a bad idea to clear elf but it is something like 75-25 or so. What's wrong with that?

This.

I don't understand at all why one should be forced to enter every branch in every game. (And this is coming from someone who actully thinks getting 15-runes is often pretty fun.)

[daggaz]

I don't understand at all why one should be forced to enter every branch in every game. (And this is coming from someone who actully thinks getting 15-runes is often pretty fun.)

The voice demands it.

[asdu]

On a tangentially related note, I remember reading somewhere that teleports in elf:3 were recently changed to make it more likely to land into the vault. Can anyone confirm this or was it just someone talking out of his ass?

[Volteccer_Jack]

On a tangentially related note, I remember reading somewhere that teleports in elf:3 were recently changed to make it more likely to land into the vault. Can anyone confirm this or was it just someone talking out of his ass?

Yes it was. Although due to the nature of end vaults -- big open areas containing lots and lots of squares you don't want to be standing on -- random teleportation is more likely to leave you in a fatal situation than on a normal level.

[battaile]

OMG! One anecdotal death in elf:3?!

Scathing wit.

[Tristian]

Once I feel well prepared for it, I like to clear Elf:3. I've only died there 4 or 5 times, usually by my own carelessness. And I've always walked away with at least a few very helpful items.
As far as Crypt, however, usually gives me enough trouble that I rarely bother with it.

[skyspire]

Quick comments on Elf:3 .. i've died there and cleared it out there enough times to tell you. In fact, in a recent build I cleared Elf 3 before getting any of the runes. Elf 3 is definitely worth it for the awesome randart equipment that you will find there, not to mention the spell books and rod(s)

The main danger here are Deep Elf Annihilators (who cast Lehudib's Crystal Spear), Deep Elf Blademasters (who are very fast and hit quickly and hard) and Deep Elf Master Archers. Oh, and Deep Elf High Priests will smite you too. And Deep Elf Demonologists will summon some pretty powerful demons.

With caution, Elf 3 is not difficult if you have some or all of the following:

Deflect Missiles or good shield with high SH (not a buckler) - at minimum you should have Repel Missiles if you don't have a good shield or Deflect.
Curare for Deep Elf Blademasters
Freezing Cloud or Poison Cloud
High EV
Extremely or Extraordinarily Magic Resistant - to avoid banishment/polymorph/paralyze/confuse/slow
Amulet of Warding is helpful to protect against summons
Amulet of Clarity is helpful if your MR is not high (not recommended though, because clarity will not prevent banishment)

At least 1 pip of resistance in cold and fire.. rElec can be helpful too, as some of their weapons will be branded with it. Ideally rNeg too, for the Death Mages and the possibility of tormenting demons.
potions or wand of heal wounds
potion(s) or spell of haste

Even with the above, you don't go charging into the vault room, you lure them out in small groups and take them out in corridors. Never fight the demons, target the demonologist(s) and the demons will disappear of course. Freezing Cloud/Poison Cloud makes Elf 3 very easy.

Elf 3 is suicide if you have only high AC and low EV and no way to deflect/block missiles. High AC alone will just lull you into overconfidence and you will die from Lehudib's Crystal Spear.

Invisibility is not important or needed for Elf 3 because many of the uber elves can see invisible. Stealth skill is not helpful there either because they will wake up and see you when you enter the vault area. (at least i tried this at Stealth level 15, maybe if your stealth is maxxed you will get better results)

[and into]

Well, whether or not you *should* do it, I have to disagree with some of what was just said about how to do it. Not trying to be harsh, but there was some very misleading stuff.

The main danger here are Deep Elf Annihilators (who cast Lehudib's Crystal Spear), Deep Elf Blademasters (who are very fast and hit quickly and hard) and Deep Elf Master Archers. Oh, and Deep Elf High Priests will smite you too. And Deep Elf Demonologists will summon some pretty powerful demons.

Also, the high priests can hit you with (3d15) Hellfire directly. So can Deep Elf Sorcerers (but for even more: 3d20), an enemy that you don't even bother to mention. In truth, *any* of the high level elves are really nasty and dangerous.

Amulet of Warding is helpful to protect against summons

Unless it was buffed recently in Trunk, Warding is not that helpful, because physical attacks from summons should be basically the least of your worries. Warding is better than nothing but it is not good, and even then the rN+ that warding gives is more likely to be helpful in Elf than the actual warding effect.

Amulet of Clarity is helpful if your MR is not high (not recommended though, because clarity will not prevent banishment)

If it is not recommended, why do you recommend it? Again, Clarity is better than an empty slot, but confusion is not really the main issue in Elf. I think one time I had to deal with an orange crystal statue vault on Elf 2, but that's not a usual thing. You just want high MR in Elf.

At least 1 pip of resistance in cold and fire.. rElec can be helpful too, as some of their weapons will be branded with it.

rF, rC, and rElec can be helpful, but for rElec that's entirely because elves cast lightning bolt, not because of the tiny chance one spawns with a dagger of electricity. Frankly, it is in your best interest if one of the non-blademaster vault elves uses its turn to prod you with a weapon of electricity, even if it procs, because that's a waste of a turn compared to summoning a fiend or hitting you with a strong bolt attack or a crystal spear. In any case, though they certainly help, none of these resistances is as important as having good AC.

Freezing Cloud/Poison Cloud makes Elf 3 very easy.

I can't help but point out the irony in your saying that high AC will lull you into overconfidence right after you make this claim. Cloud spells are indeed a great way to kill elves, but that does *not* make Elf 3 very easy, because cloud spells don't make you immune to the punishment the high end elves can dish out. Freezing or Poisonous Cloud will take out your enemies really well, but a few lucky shots from the vault elves will lay you low regardless, so you must still be very careful. Claiming that any spell makes Elf 3 "very easy" is incorrect.

Elf 3 is suicide if you have only high AC and low EV and no way to deflect/block missiles. High AC alone will just lull you into overconfidence and you will die from Lehudib's Crystal Spear.

Elf 3 is arguably a bad idea no matter what, and it is definitely a bad idea if you don't have good AC/EV. That being said, doing Elf with really high AC but lowish EV is probably less worse than doing it with really high EV and crap AC, because the latter means that nearly the full force of any spell or arrow is likely to hit if you fail a single EV roll. So what you said about overconfidence applies more to the reverse case, high EV with bad AC. Fortunately AC and EV are not mutually exclusive, and hopefully your dodgy character is wearing a mottled dragon armor or something along those lines, and is thus well protected beyond a single spin of the RNG (even if you stack the odds highly in your favor with phase shift and deflect missiles).

Stealth skill is not helpful there either because they will wake up and see you when you enter the vault area. (at least i tried this at Stealth level 15, maybe if your stealth is maxxed you will get better results)

Stealth is as helpful in Elf as it is everywhere else, which is, "very," and it doesn't need to be anywhere near max level to be extremely effective. If you go in carefully, having good stealth ("very stealthy" or better) means that it will be much easier to draw elves out one at a time. Of course, if you throw clouds all over the place or cast noisy spells, you are going to wake everything up and stealth won't do as much for you. In leather armor, troll leather, or MDA, most characters will be very stealthy at like 6 or 7 levels in stealth, give or take.