Unable to proceed past the early game


Ask fellow adventurers how to stay alive in the deep, dark, dangerous dungeon below, or share your own accumulated wisdom.

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Blades Runner

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Post Tuesday, 18th February 2014, 09:19

Re: Unable to proceed past the early game

"DCSS kind of "pushes" you deeper into the dungeon, if you spend too long on a given floor, the odds of getting a nasty overpowered creature spawning increase dramatically. Killing everything on a floor, or indeed exploring every nook and cranny of each level actually lowers your chance of survival (Which is very different from many games where "missing something" can result in you being underpowered, and running around trying to kill as many things as possible in an area before moving on is par for the course, don't do either of these things in DCSS)"
Well THIS is quite new information. Nowhere else have I seen this. Very valuable thing to know too. It explains a lot and confirms what I suspected already. Thanks very much! I will try and shorten my trips on dungeon levels to be practical for leveling without overstaying my welcome...What would you say is the threshold turn countwise before you are risking instadeath or at least a really hard fight on any given level? Or does it just increment as you descend? Is there a point where it doesn't really matter anymore?

Sar

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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Tuesday, 18th February 2014, 09:34

Re: Unable to proceed past the early game

You can probably autoexplore any level twice before running into that, you should not worry about it unless you are doing silly things like scumming (because it's designed to punish exactly that).

Also you can use quote tags to quote people, makes posts quite a bit readable.
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Blades Runner

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Post Tuesday, 18th February 2014, 09:58

Re: Unable to proceed past the early game

Sar wrote:You can probably autoexplore any level twice before running into that, you should not worry about it unless you are doing silly things like scumming (because it's designed to punish exactly that).

Also you can use quote tags to quote people, makes posts quite a bit readable.


Yeah just forgot them. :) Thanks for the concise answer. So does that mean that DCSS doesn't punish you for completely searching a level? Because that seems to be the implication of your answer and it seems to conflict directly with what Siegurt said. If it means both then I guess I am a little confused. I admit I am a bit of a completionist in that I feel the need to explore everything but if youd need to go around 2x then that isn't why I've died to an OP foe almost every other run (though I admit to plenty of YASDs.) In fact the main reason I started this thread was because I was dying to one or two mobs out of the blue who were ten times more powerful than their colleagues. This seemed consistent so Siegurt's note about stalling seemed to confirm what I was observing.

Also by "scumming" I assume you mean Stairs scumming vs harder monsters?

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Tuesday, 18th February 2014, 10:01

Re: Unable to proceed past the early game

Most players more-or-less clear every floor they go to in the dungeon, at least (not necessarily in other places like Pan). Crawl is designed to let you do this most of the time.

Even at original floor generation there is some chance of getting "out of depth" monsters.

Sar

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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Tuesday, 18th February 2014, 10:04

Re: Unable to proceed past the early game

By scumming here I mean just staying on the level and waiting for enemies to respawn, killing them and repeating that.
Back when OoD timer did not exist and monsters respawned infinitely, a mummy could stay on D1-2 and max all skills. Now, after some time strong OoD monsters will spawn and then spawns will stop completely.

Cocytus Succeeder

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Post Tuesday, 18th February 2014, 10:18

Re: Unable to proceed past the early game

Sar wrote:By scumming here I mean just staying on the level and waiting for enemies to respawn, killing them and repeating that.
Back when OoD timer did not exist and monsters respawned infinitely, a mummy could stay on D1-2 and max all skills. Now, after some time strong OoD monsters will spawn and then spawns will stop completely.


I bet that Siegurt had something else in mind when he made that comment. He specifically wrote about exploring the level, not about waiting there indefinitely.

Sar

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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Tuesday, 18th February 2014, 10:32

Re: Unable to proceed past the early game

Well, I don't know what Siegurt mean. I just know that I am a very slow player and I usually explore all levels and it usually works well enough.
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Blades Runner

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Post Tuesday, 18th February 2014, 11:41

Re: Unable to proceed past the early game

Ugh case in point, I was playing a DDBe (level 11) trying to follow all the various bits of advice here and doing OK (Trog 4, allowing the auto skill picker to arrange my skills despite my reservations, IDing potions asap, scrolls same, had an OK weapon +5/+2 flail of protection and wearing Plate Armor had an AC of 22/Ev of 6 using a buckler for 7 blocking) and I end up hit by an invisible unique and teleported into a huge room full of OP mobs.

I teleported out but ended up stuck in a corridor nearby where slimes came together whilst I was trapped by other monsters and combined to be enormous and that was all they wrote. I am not saying I didn't make mistakes (I probably should have not berserked with that thing near by (but I panicked having been totaled before by one at an early level) and I probably should have spammed my heal wand, then tried to kill the monsters blocking the other end of the corridor. I was out of teleports with no other mode of transport available. I didn't do that so my escape was denied but I feel that I probably could still have fought my way out eventually if the Enormous Slime had not hit me for 99% of my hp in one sitting. Those seem awfully powerful for level 10 of the dungeon. So do the unique mages that attacked me previous to this fatal ending. I killed one but didn't see the other one at all.

Blades Runner

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Post Tuesday, 18th February 2014, 12:26

Re: Unable to proceed past the early game

Frankly, people will be able to help you a lot more effectively if you post the morgue/character dump for your characters. Even better, play on Webtiles and ask someone in ##crawl to spectate you, so they can point out errors you are making -before- it is too late.

On the subject of auto skilling, you can still specify which skills are more important to you in autoskilling mode, and AFAIK they will be trained more frequently.

Dungeon Master

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Post Tuesday, 18th February 2014, 13:25

Re: Unable to proceed past the early game

Regarding slimes, you should never, ever fight a blob of more than two merged slimes, because the damage they do is absurd. When the slime is outside of your line of sight, they will split back up, and then you can fight them one on one. Generally speaking, they'll only merge if they're forced to by having no other way to approach you.

Regarding invisible uniques, when a monster can turn invisible, sometimes it will do so on its first turn. The only way to see if this has happened is by reading your messages as they come up. You can make noticing it more likely by adding an prompt-to-continue on having unique monsters come into view to your rc file. I don't recall the syntax off hand, but you can find an example by searching this forum.
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Tartarus Sorceror

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Post Tuesday, 18th February 2014, 16:12

Re: Unable to proceed past the early game

also, you should understand that the early game is the hardest part of the game. not that other parts are easy, but you dont need to think "damn, I cant get through the early game, the late game will be impossible".
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Tuesday, 18th February 2014, 16:34

Re: Unable to proceed past the early game

Hopeless wrote:I teleported out but ended up stuck in a corridor nearby where slimes came together whilst I was trapped by other monsters and combined to be enormous and that was all they wrote.


Ah, the LEARNING EXPERIENCE.
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Blades Runner

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Post Tuesday, 18th February 2014, 18:11

Re: Unable to proceed past the early game

XuaXua wrote:
Hopeless wrote:I teleported out but ended up stuck in a corridor nearby where slimes came together whilst I was trapped by other monsters and combined to be enormous and that was all they wrote.


Ah, the LEARNING EXPERIENCE.


Yeah... I'll never forget I had a merfolk gladiator, cleared lair and orc and was sitting pretty. Then... "titanic slime? no problem". Now I treat slimes like vicious wild beasts.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Tuesday, 18th February 2014, 23:02

Re: Unable to proceed past the early game

Magipi wrote:
Sar wrote:By scumming here I mean just staying on the level and waiting for enemies to respawn, killing them and repeating that.
Back when OoD timer did not exist and monsters respawned infinitely, a mummy could stay on D1-2 and max all skills. Now, after some time strong OoD monsters will spawn and then spawns will stop completely.


I bet that Siegurt had something else in mind when he made that comment. He specifically wrote about exploring the level, not about waiting there indefinitely.


No If you autoexplore once you should be fine for OOD spawns, I was really talking about not trying to step on every square, and not going back through the levels to make sure you didn't "miss" any kills, this is the kind of thing you would do in some rpgs, you have to recall that there are *some* games in which this kind of behavior is not just encouraged but expected.

I *did* mean that you're better off progressing into the dungeon than you are trying to fight everything on every floor.
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Eringya's Employee

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Post Tuesday, 18th February 2014, 23:25

Re: Unable to proceed past the early game

I always fully explore all D, Lair, Vaults levels and then immediately proceed to the next. I know you don't have to do it, it's just a bad habit of mine I guess.
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Tartarus Sorceror

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Post Tuesday, 18th February 2014, 23:52

Re: Unable to proceed past the early game

well, is understandable to explore some D, but ALL D? isn't it a little too much?
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Snake Sneak

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Post Wednesday, 19th February 2014, 02:46

Re: Unable to proceed past the early game

I thoroughly explore every level of D, lair and its branches (not slime) Orc mines and vaults. I thought that was the norm lol

Crypt Cleanser

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Post Wednesday, 19th February 2014, 02:56

Re: Unable to proceed past the early game

Most advice you will get about crawl is bad in some way, and encouraging OOD timer paranoia is a pretty clear example.
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Blades Runner

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Post Wednesday, 19th February 2014, 04:51

Re: Unable to proceed past the early game

Well this last run was tough.
I thought I might have a chance to get past level 11 but again I died in the mines. Overwhelmed by superior numbers and forces when I ran out of resources.
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Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.13.1 (tiles) character file.

15105 Dr Who the Fighter (level 11, -3/108 HPs)
Began as a Deep Dwarf Berserker on Feb 18, 2014.
Was an Elder of Trog.
Killed from afar by an ogre mage (17 damage)
... with a fireball

... on Level 4 of the Orcish Mines.
The game lasted 02:17:35 (13579 turns).

Dr Who the Fighter (Deep Dwarf Berserker) Turns: 13579, Time: 02:17:35

HP -3/108 AC 23 Str 20 XL: 11 Next: 90%
MP 6/6 EV 3 Int 10 (13) God: Trog [****..]
Gold 527 SH 15 Dex 14 Spells: 0 memorised, 10 levels left

Res.Fire : . . . See Invis. : . a - +10,+3 whip of Resourcefulness {freeze, rElec}
Res.Cold : + . . Warding : + o - +3 orc plate armour {rC+}
Life Prot.: + + . Conserve : . m - +0 shield of Crowiz {Str-3 Dex+2 Int+2 Curse}
Res.Poison: . Res.Corr. : . y - +1 helmet
Res.Elec. : + Clarity : . e - +0 dwarf cloak
Sust.Abil.: . . Spirit.Shd : . (no gloves)
Res.Mut. : . Stasis : . v - +1 pair of boots
Res.Rott. : . Flight : . f - amulet of warding
Saprovore : . . . A - ring of flight
h - ring of positive energy

@: non-regenerating, drained, quite resistant to hostile enchantments, extremely
unstealthy
A: damage resistance, recharge devices, berserk 1, fast metabolism 1, sense
surroundings 2, slow healing 3, Int +2
a: Device Recharging, Burn Spellbooks, Berserk, Trog's Hand, Brothers in Arms,
Renounce Religion, Evoke Flight


You were on level 4 of the Orcish Mines.
You worshipped Trog.
Trog was greatly pleased with you.
You were not hungry.

You visited 2 branches of the dungeon, and saw 15 of its levels.
You also visited: Bailey.

You collected 1341 gold pieces.
You spent 834 gold pieces at shops.

Inventory:

Hand weapons
a - the +10,+3 whip of Resourcefulness (weapon) {freeze, rElec}
(You bought it in a shop on level 4 of the Orcish Mines)

It has been specially enchanted to freeze those struck by it, causing extra
injury to most foes and up to double damage against particularly susceptible
opponents. It can also slow down cold-blooded creatures.

It insulates you from electricity.
b - the +4 blowgun "Schulixia" {speed, MR++ Int+3}
(You bought it in a shop on level 4 of the Orcish Mines)

Attacks with this weapon take half as long, but cause slightly less damage.

It affects your intelligence (+3).
It affects your resistance to hostile enchantments.
d - a +2,+1 sling
u - a cursed -3,-1 orcish mace
C - the +9,+3 dagger of Compulsion {stab, MR++}
(You found it on level 5 of the Dungeon)

It inflicts extra damage upon your enemies.

It affects your resistance to hostile enchantments.
D - a +0 blowgun
E - a +4,+5 whip of flaming
F - a +2,+3 flail of holy wrath
G - the +4,+7 whip of Conflict {drain, -Tele Int+3}
(You bought it in a shop on level 1 of the Orcish Mines)

A truly terrible weapon, it drains the life of those it strikes.

It affects your intelligence (+3).
It prevents most forms of teleportation.
H - a +2 blowgun
J - a +0,+2 orcish mace of crushing
U - a +3,+2 trident of venom
Missiles
q - 13 stones (quivered)
t - 24 poisoned needles
K - 16 sling bullets of frost
Armour
e - a +0 dwarven cloak (worn)
g - a +2 orcish plate armour
m - the +0 shield of Crowiz (worn) {Str-3 Dex+2 Int+2 Curse}
(You found it in a bailey)

It affects your strength (-3).
It affects your intelligence (+2).
It affects your dexterity (+2).
It may recurse itself.
o - a +3 orcish plate armour of cold resistance (worn)
r - a +0 plate armour
v - a +1 pair of boots (worn)
y - a +1 helmet (worn)
Magical devices
c - a wand of heal wounds (0)
i - a wand of heal wounds (0)
p - a wand of slowing (0)
s - a wand of disintegration (0)
x - a wand of confusion (0)
O - a wand of digging (19)
P - a wand of paralysis (6)
Comestibles
j - a chunk of orc flesh
k - a chunk of orc flesh
Scrolls
w - 4 scrolls of remove curse
Jewellery
f - an amulet of warding (around neck)
h - a ring of positive energy (left hand)
l - a +3 ring of intelligence
A - a ring of flight (right hand)
B - an uncursed ring of regeneration
R - an uncursed ring of poison resistance {unknown}
S - an uncursed ring of ice
Potions
N - a potion of porridge {unknown}
Books
I - a book of Clouds

Spells Type Level
Mephitic Cloud Conjuration/Poison/Air 3
Conjure Flame Conjuration/Fire 3
Poisonous Cloud Conjuration/Poison/Air 6
Freezing Cloud Conjuration/Ice/Air 6
Ring of Flames Charms/Fire 7


Trog disapproves of the use of such an item.
M - a book of Beasts

Spells Type Level
Summon Butterflies Summoning 1
Sticks to Snakes Transmutation 2
Call Canine Familiar Summoning 3
Ice Form Ice/Transmutation 4
Summon Ice Beast Ice/Summoning 4
Summon Hydra Summoning 7


Trog disapproves of the use of such an item.
Miscellaneous
n - a phial of floods
T - a fan of gales (inert)
Rods
z - a +0 rod of inaccuracy (10/10)
(You found it on level 2 of the Dungeon)


Skills:
- Level 13.0(12.8) Fighting
+ Level 9.6(9.4) Maces & Flails
- Level 1.0(0.9) Throwing
- Level 10.0(9.8) Armour
- Level 4.1(4.0) Dodging
- Level 1.8(1.7) Stealth


You had 10 spell levels left.
You didn't know any spells.

Dungeon Overview and Level Annotations

Branches:
Dungeon (11/27) Temple (0/1) D:4 Orc (4/4) D:11
Elf (0/3) Orc:3
Lair: D:8-13

Altars:
Kikubaaqudgha
Nemelex Xobeh
Okawaru
Sif Muna
Vehumet
Xom
Zin
the Shining One

Shops:
D:6 ! Orc:1 +( Orc:4 (


Innate Abilities, Weirdness & Mutations

You are resistant to damage.
You can recharge devices by infusing magical energy.
You passively map the area around you.
You do not heal naturally.
You tend to lose your temper in combat.
Your mind is acute. (Int +2)
You have a fast metabolism.


Message History

The orc warrior hits you with a glowing orcish great mace!
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
The ogre mage points at you and mumbles some strange words.
The puff of flame hits you!
The orc sorcerer hits you but does no damage.
You hit the orc sorcerer but do no damage.
The orc sorcerer is almost dead.
The orc warrior hits you but does no damage.
You hit the orc sorcerer. You freeze the orc sorcerer.
You kill the orc sorcerer!
Trog accepts your kill.
Trog appreciates your killing of a magic user.
The orc warrior barely misses you.
You block the orc warrior's attack.
You hit the fungus. You freeze the fungus.
The fungus is lightly damaged.
You block the goblin's attack.
The ogre mage points at you and mumbles some strange words.
The fireball explodes! The fireball engulfs you!
You die...

, , , ... , , ,
, ,o4 , #...#, , ,
,.§4#* .... . , ,
*,,,.....# ......., ,, ,
, , ......##..#.#. ,, , ,
, , .....#.....#... , ,
,.$.............# , , *
.##.....##.# , ,
.......$..#.###....
, , .........o....#....
, , ........ooo3........ ,
, ..........#g#...O.. , , , ,
, ,,.........@..##....,
, , ,.....f..f...f..#..
, ......f.....f...# * *
,, , ..............## ** ,
, * ......8.....f.# * *
, ..<.....n...f.#
, , , ,............f.#
, , ..<...f.......#
, , ......f..f...###
, .....f.f.......##
, ................#**
, ,,...............## , *
, , ...............#.


You could see an ice devil, an ogre mage, 2 orc warriors, an orc sorcerer and a
goblin.

Vanquished Creatures
The ghost of Dr Who the Basher, a powerful DDBe of Trog (D:10)
Fannar (D:10)
A hydra (D:11)
The ghost of Fail the Spear-Bearer, an experienced DrBe of Trog (Orc:2)
The ghost of Bib the Rib the Carver, an experienced MiBe of Trog (Orc:3)
An orc high priest (Orc:3)
Pikel (D:6)
A hill giant (D:10)
2 orc sorcerers (Orc:4)
The ghost of Bo Ring the Cudgeler, an average OgBe of Trog (D:4)
2 trolls
3 two-headed ogres
Prince Ribbit (D:8)
A trapdoor spider (D:11)
2 wraiths
4 yaks (D:11)
A hungry ghost (D:11)
3 hippogriffs
A rock worm (D:10)
2 manticores
14 orc warriors
2 soldier ants
4 ice beasts
A sky beast (D:10)
3 phantoms
2 ogres
5 centaurs
A slave (D:6)
3 wargs
A gnoll sergeant (D:11)
Blork the orc (D:9)
4 giant frogs
A komodo dragon skeleton (D:11)
A cyclops zombie (D:9)
3 jellies
3 goliath beetles (D:10)
A centaur zombie (D:10)
3 crimson imps
2 gnoll shamans
9 hounds
12 orc priests
A giant frog skeleton (D:9)
18 orc wizards
3 scorpions
5 worker ants
2 iguanas
6 ogre zombies (D:11)
Ijyb (D:4)
A hound zombie (D:6)
A big kobold skeleton (D:11)
19 gnolls
6 adders
A goliath beetle zombie (D:6)
2 inept feature mimics
An inept item mimic (D:3)
4 worms
An iguana zombie (D:9)
An adder skeleton (D:6)
A giant eyeball (D:9)
7 giant geckos
96 orcs
A ball python (D:3)
11 bats
7 giant cockroaches
16 goblins
18 hobgoblins
5 jackals
13 kobolds
3 quokkas
5 giant newts
A goblin zombie (D:11)
2 hobgoblin zombies (D:11)
16 orc zombies (D:11)
13 rats
5 ballistomycetes (D:9)
A fungus (D:8)
401 creatures vanquished.

Vanquished Creatures (collateral kills)
2 orcs (Bailey)
2 creatures vanquished.

Vanquished Creatures (others)
6 orcs (Orc:2)
A giant spore (D:9)
7 creatures vanquished.

Grand Total: 410 creatures vanquished

Notes
Turn | Place | Note
--------------------------------------------------------------
0 | D:1 | Dr Who, the Deep Dwarf Berserker, began the quest for the Orb.
0 | D:1 | Reached XP level 1. HP: 21/21 MP: 0/0
163 | D:1 | Reached XP level 2. HP: 24/28 MP: 1/1
585 | D:1 | Reached XP level 3. HP: 24/36 MP: 2/2
752 | D:2 | Acquired Trog's second power
817 | D:2 | Found a shimmering altar of Xom.
817 | D:2 | Found a deep blue altar of Sif Muna.
863 | D:2 | Reached skill level 1 in Stealth
985 | D:2 | Found a radiant altar of Vehumet.
1550 | D:3 | Reached XP level 4. HP: 28/43 MP: 3/3
2357 | D:4 | Found an iron altar of Okawaru.
2457 | D:4 | Noticed Bo Ring's ghost (average OgBe)
2469 | D:4 | Killed Bo Ring's ghost
2469 | D:4 | Reached skill level 4 in Maces & Flails
2469 | D:4 | Reached XP level 5. HP: 41/50 MP: 4/4
2469 | D:4 | Reached XP level 6. HP: 46/57 MP: 5/5
2612 | D:4 | Noticed Ijyb
2629 | D:4 | Killed Ijyb
2745 | D:4 | Found a staircase to the Ecumenical Temple.
2877 | D:5 | Entered Level 5 of the Dungeon
3064 | D:5 | Got a pitted dagger
3244 | D:5 | Reached skill level 1 in Throwing
3244 | D:5 | Reached skill level 5 in Armour
3244 | D:5 | Reached XP level 7. HP: 26/64 MP: 6/6
3600 | D:6 | Identified the +9,+3 dagger of Compulsion {stab, MR++} (You found it on level 5 of the Dungeon)
3660 | D:6 | Reached skill level 6 in Armour
3710 | D:6 | Found Mameku's Distillery.
3716 | D:6 | Bought a potion of heal wounds for 42 gold pieces
3716 | D:6 | Bought a potion of curing for 28 gold pieces
3716 | D:6 | Bought a potion of invisibility for 77 gold pieces
3716 | D:6 | Bought a potion of heal wounds for 42 gold pieces
3717 | D:6 | Paralysed by a potion of paralysis for 2 turns
4012 | D:6 | Reached skill level 7 in Armour
4036 | D:6 | Reached XP level 8. HP: 56/73 MP: 7/7
5205 | D:6 | Reached skill level 5 in Fighting
5309 | D:6 | Reached skill level 8 in Armour
5516 | D:6 | Noticed Pikel
5533 | D:6 | Killed Pikel
5533 | D:6 | Reached skill level 9 in Armour
5586 | D:6 | Found a glowing silver altar of Zin.
5635 | D:6 | Found a deep blue altar of Sif Muna.
5776 | D:7 | Gained mutation: You passively map the area around you. [level up]
5776 | D:7 | Reached XP level 9. HP: 64/81 MP: 8/8
5937 | D:7 | Found an ancient bone altar of Kikubaaqudgha.
5941 | D:7 | Found a glowing golden altar of the Shining One.
6024 | D:7 | Reached skill level 10 in Armour
6093 | D:7 | Gained mutation: Your mind is acute. (Int +2) [potion of mutation]
6093 | D:7 | Gained mutation: You have a fast metabolism. [potion of mutation]
6093 | D:7 | Gained mutation: You tend to lose your temper in combat. [potion of mutation]
6249 | D:7 | Acquired Trog's third power
6823 | D:8 | Noticed Prince Ribbit
6942 | D:8 | Killed Prince Ribbit
7550 | D:9 | Paralysed by a giant eyeball for 4 turns
7837 | D:9 | Reached XP level 10. HP: 61/96 MP: 9/9
7842 | D:9 | Noticed Blork the orc
7929 | D:9 | Killed Blork the orc
8252 | D:9 | Reached skill level 10 in Fighting
8430 | D:10 | Entered Level 10 of the Dungeon
8430 | D:10 | Noticed Fannar
8542 | D:10 | Found a sparkling altar of Nemelex Xobeh.
8897 | D:10 | Noticed a hill giant
8924 | D:10 | Killed a hill giant
9018 | D:10 | Reached skill level 11 in Fighting
9024 | D:10 | Noticed Dr Who's ghost (powerful DDBe)
9091 | D:10 | Killed Dr Who's ghost
9345 | D:10 | Killed Fannar
9345 | D:10 | Reached skill level 12 in Fighting
9854 | D:11 | Found a staircase to the Orcish Mines.
9899 | D:11 | Reached XP level 11. HP: 65/108 MP: 10/10
10673 | D:11 | Reached skill level 13 in Fighting
10723 | D:11 | Noticed an eight-headed hydra
10740 | D:11 | Killed an eight-headed hydra
10740 | D:11 | Reached skill level 5 in Maces & Flails
10771 | D:11 | HP: 4/108 [warg (7)]
11227 | Orc:1 | Entered Level 1 of the Orcish Mines
11227 | Orc:1 | Found Pheuseg's Magic Scroll Boutique.
11227 | Orc:1 | Found Igunnias' Book Shop.
11309 | Orc:1 | Pheuseg's Magic Scroll Boutique was a mimic.
11444 | Orc:1 | Found a flagged portal.
11457 | Bailey | Entered a bailey
11838 | Bailey | Got a twisted shield
11873 | Bailey | Identified the +0 shield of Crowiz {Str-3 Dex+2 Int+2 Curse} (You found it in a bailey)
12447 | Orc:1 | Found Thufrapp's Antique Weapon Boutique.
12479 | Orc:1 | Bought a twisted whip for 225 gold pieces
12480 | Orc:1 | Identified the whip of Conflict {drain, -Tele Int+3} (You bought it in a shop on level 1 of the Orcish Mines)
12599 | Orc:2 | Noticed Fail's ghost (experienced DrBe)
12668 | Orc:2 | Killed Fail's ghost
13100 | Orc:3 | Noticed Bib the Rib's ghost (experienced MiBe)
13126 | Orc:3 | Killed Bib the Rib's ghost
13171 | Orc:3 | Found a staircase to the Elven Halls.
13340 | Orc:4 | Entered Level 4 of the Orcish Mines
13357 | Orc:4 | Noticed an orc high priest
13357 | Orc:4 | Found Trajib's Antique Weapon Emporium.
13389 | Orc:4 | Noticed a soul eater
13404 | Orc:3 | Killed an orc high priest
13542 | Orc:4 | Bought a transparent whip for 210 gold pieces
13542 | Orc:4 | Bought a faintly glowing blowgun for 210 gold pieces
13543 | Orc:4 | Identified the whip of Resourcefulness {freeze, rElec} (You bought it in a shop on level 4 of the Orcish Mines)
13544 | Orc:4 | Identified the blowgun "Schulixia" {speed, MR++ Int+3} (You bought it in a shop on level 4 of the Orcish Mines)
13567 | Orc:4 | Noticed an ice devil
13574 | Orc:4 | Noticed an ogre mage
13579 | Orc:4 | Killed from afar by an ogre mage


Action | 1- 3 | 4- 6 | 7- 9 | 10-12 || total
-------------------------+-------+-------+-------+-------++-------
Melee: Mace | 33 | | | || 33
Whip | 82 | 157 | 453 | 932 || 1624
Flail | | | 141 | || 141
Fire: Blowgun | | | 10 | 30 || 40
Throw: Stone | 8 | 35 | 156 | 145 || 344
Dart | | | 5 | 16 || 21
Dagger | | | | 1 || 1
Invok: Trog's Hand | | 2 | 17 | 36 || 55
Berserk | | 2 | 7 | 8 || 17
Burn Spellbooks | | | | 1 || 1
Abil: Device Recharging | | | | 4 || 4
Evoke: Wand | | 1 | 1 | 46 || 48
Miscellaneous | | | | 1 || 1
Use: Scroll | | 12 | 11 | 15 || 38
Potion | | 6 | 8 | 7 || 21
Stab: Paralysed | | | | 13 || 13


As you can see from the dump, I cleared the Bailey. Though it shows that I saw the Lair I didn't in fact find the entrance or I would have tried to do that first. It seems that Mines are easier to find.

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Post Wednesday, 19th February 2014, 05:02

Re: Unable to proceed past the early game

* Even if you're forced to do Orc before Lair, it's often wise to put off doing branch endings, since they are disproportionately dangerous. In your situation I would have finished off Orc:3 and then gone looking for Lair again.

* Both Orc and Lair entrances tend to have thematic monsters generated surrounding them (crocodiles, frogs, sheep etc in the case of Lair). It's not generally true that Mines are easier to find IME, they are about the same.

* It does not, in fact, show that you saw the lair. If it did, it would show a single DL rather than a range -- compare the entry for Lair to the entry for Orc.
Last edited by savageorange on Wednesday, 19th February 2014, 06:14, edited 2 times in total.

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Post Wednesday, 19th February 2014, 05:38

Re: Unable to proceed past the early game

Hopeless wrote:Though it shows that I saw the Lair I didn't in fact find the entrance

Did you press Ctrl+g?

Also dumps are better put in code tags, not spoiler tags.
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Post Wednesday, 19th February 2014, 06:23

Re: Unable to proceed past the early game

Sar wrote:
Hopeless wrote:Though it shows that I saw the Lair I didn't in fact find the entrance

Did you press Ctrl+g?

Also dumps are better put in code tags, not spoiler tags.

oh because of the fixed font? Next time.

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Post Wednesday, 19th February 2014, 07:28

Re: Unable to proceed past the early game

It also puts long texts in a nice scrollable window.

Not to say fighting that enemy (ogre mage) with that character and weapon was a good idea, but the least you could do was activating Trog's Hand when facing it. Ogre magi have some of the nastiest Hexes in the game.
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Post Wednesday, 19th February 2014, 07:57

Re: Unable to proceed past the early game

Sar wrote:It also puts long texts in a nice scrollable window.

Not to say fighting that enemy (ogre mage) with that character and weapon was a good idea, but the least you could do was activating Trog's Hand when facing it. Ogre magi have some of the nastiest Hexes in the game.

There was NO time. It was off the side and showed up while I was heading towards the stairs to get away from the sudden mob I was facing. There was really no evading it or taking time to do anything. Didn't notice it until the death message.

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Post Wednesday, 19th February 2014, 08:04

Re: Unable to proceed past the early game

Hopeless wrote:Didn't notice it until the death message.

I won't pretend not paying enough attention is something I am not guilty of, but here's the problem. Crawl is a turn-based game, you don't have to input your actions as fast as you can. Your events log is:
  Code:
The orc warrior hits you with a glowing orcish great mace!
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
The ogre mage points at you and mumbles some strange words.
The puff of flame hits you!
The orc sorcerer hits you but does no damage.
You hit the orc sorcerer but do no damage.
The orc sorcerer is almost dead.
The orc warrior hits you but does no damage.
You hit the orc sorcerer. You freeze the orc sorcerer.
You kill the orc sorcerer!
Trog accepts your kill.
Trog appreciates your killing of a magic user.
The orc warrior barely misses you.
You block the orc warrior's attack.
You hit the fungus. You freeze the fungus.
The fungus is lightly damaged.
You block the goblin's attack.
The ogre mage points at you and mumbles some strange words.
The fireball explodes! The fireball engulfs you!
You die...

So, you fought orc sorcerer (another extremely dangerous hexer which I would not engage without Trog's Hand at this stage), then you hit... a fungus? All while that ogre mage was pelting you with spells. That is, well, a bad situation to be in.

Oh, and also: you have 2 HW wands with 0 charges and 6 MP. That's ungood too.
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Post Wednesday, 19th February 2014, 08:34

Re: Unable to proceed past the early game

Sar wrote:
Hopeless wrote:Didn't notice it until the death message.

I won't pretend not paying enough attention is something I am not guilty of, but here's the problem. Crawl is a turn-based game, you don't have to input your actions as fast as you can. Your events log is:
  Code:
The orc warrior hits you with a glowing orcish great mace!
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
The ogre mage points at you and mumbles some strange words.
The puff of flame hits you!
The orc sorcerer hits you but does no damage.
You hit the orc sorcerer but do no damage.
The orc sorcerer is almost dead.
The orc warrior hits you but does no damage.
You hit the orc sorcerer. You freeze the orc sorcerer.
You kill the orc sorcerer!
Trog accepts your kill.
Trog appreciates your killing of a magic user.
The orc warrior barely misses you.
You block the orc warrior's attack.
You hit the fungus. You freeze the fungus.
The fungus is lightly damaged.
You block the goblin's attack.
The ogre mage points at you and mumbles some strange words.
The fireball explodes! The fireball engulfs you!
You die...

So, you fought orc sorcerer (another extremely dangerous hexer which I would not engage without Trog's Hand at this stage), then you hit... a fungus? All while that ogre mage was pelting you with spells. That is, well, a bad situation to be in.

Oh, and also: you have 2 HW wands with 0 charges and 6 MP. That's ungood too.

Absolutely. It may be that there are too many levers for me to manage this game properly.

As to the fungus kill, that did NOT happen right before the sorceror or any time near it. I don't understand how the dump works but it seems to take parts from different combats that are not sequential or even near each other. At least I don't recall trying to kill a fungus. (I mean what would be the point? I was trying to get away not fight.)

Sar

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Post Wednesday, 19th February 2014, 09:03

Re: Unable to proceed past the early game

That part of the dump if your combat log and these events are in order. What likely happened is that you pressed wrong movement button and moved into fungus, attacking it.

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Post Wednesday, 19th February 2014, 11:03

Re: Unable to proceed past the early game

if you see an orc sorc or an ogre mage and you don't have MR your character can be dead in any following action(paralysation, banishment), so you better not even fight them. I still do, though, but it's not optimal if you want to win.
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Post Wednesday, 19th February 2014, 16:57

Re: Unable to proceed past the early game

what are you talking about, banishment is just a source of fun...
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Post Wednesday, 19th February 2014, 17:00

Re: Unable to proceed past the early game

Yeah, I like visiting some living portals to abyss on elf:3.

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Post Wednesday, 19th February 2014, 17:36

Re: Unable to proceed past the early game

You've already received a lot of good advice on tactics, etc. I'll add some more abstract stuff:

Winning isn't everything. If you find berserkers boring, who cares whether they are the "best" for learning the game? The point of a game is to have fun. I tooled around with lots of different race/background combos when I first started -- I was drawn by the thematic allure of stealthy stabbers, though it's a more challenging play style and I didn't always get very far. But I had a good time, and eventually I started to learn enough about how Crawl worked that I was willing to buckle down, sift through the wiki/knowledge bots/forum for good advice (it's often like panning for gold in a mountain of pyrite, as you've discovered) and begin practicing "optimal" play. I splatted dozens of MiBes and MiFis^Oka working up to my first 3-rune win, and after a short while I found the "press tab a lot" playstyle rather boring. But I learned so much about the game that it made it much easier to branch out to other race/background combos and actually succeed with them while also finding enjoyable, tactically and strategically interesting ways of playing. I still only have one win. But I'm having a lot more fun.

Take it on faith that EVERY game is winnable. The devs have by no means perfected this design goal of Crawl, but it's close enough to true that you should act as if it is entirely so. At first I treated Crawl like a very complicated slot machine: if the RNG was kind to me, I succeeded (for a while); if it wasn't, I splatted and pulled the lever again. It has taken me a long time to unlearn this behavior. There is still the occasional D:1 scenario that feels unsurvivable, but with optimal play from turn one I can almost always pull through. And even when Crawl is stingy with the sort of equipment/consumables/spellbooks that would be my first choice, there is enough variety of tactical options in the game that with clever thinking I can always adapt an alternative strategy to at least cope with the deficiency until the lean times pass. Believing that every character is winnable regardless of what the RNG does or does not throw my way helps me to take the threat of death seriously, which means I make slower, smarter decisions. When I die, as I still do 100% of the time, I know that it is entirely my own fault. I think about what went wrong (usually a number of things, the least of which was the action I took on the turn I died), and tell myself not to do those things again; every now and then I listen. Eventually I'll get another win. In the meantime, I'm still having lots of fun.
Wins (Does not include my GrEE^Veh 15-runer...stupid experimental branch)

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Post Wednesday, 19th February 2014, 19:01

Re: Unable to proceed past the early game

Hey there Hopeless! :D

I can totally feel your pain. I've been playing this game for some 5 years now, and I still have ascended only once (and that during the last six months!) so you can draw two contradictory conclusions:

A) I stink at playing this game, so my advice is going to be terrible.
B) I'm actually more used to the early game than to anything else, so my advice is not going to be terrible.

Make of that what you will! :lol:

General advice:

1) Learn to be a coward. Running away from something you don't know if it's easy means you may die at a later time... fighting it now means it WILL kill you. If it doesn't kill you, you just lucked out.
2) Don't fight Sigmund, Grinder, Menkaure, Harold, Erolcha or Gastronok. Just. Don't. Go somewhere else.
3) Don't ever stand in sight of orc priests. The orc kill priority is priest>wizard>warrior>plain. Hide around a corner until the priest comes to you or run to his face and mash it in if there are at most 3 orcs.
4) Switch to a different branch the instant the place you are in becomes even slightly less than comfortable. IMHO at the point you see the lair entrance, it's the easiest alternative, so dive right in and go somewhere else when it gets uncomfortable. Juggling branches can be really good for your survival, even if it means you spend more food. Ctrl+g and Ctrl+f are your friends.
5) Stick to 2 or 3 solid/straightforward/comfortable character combos. When you are frustrated, roll a random or weird combo knowing that it WILL kick the bucket and that you WON'T care. This can do wonders for your morale.
6) Blowguns. Can totally save your day. Poison from a distance, run away while the poison lasts, rinse and repeat. Kills goliath beetles, worms and other insect toughies with 0% risk, and is useful for lots other stuff. Curare needles are golden against uniques - and humiliating, too.
7) Triple visitation. When you find a staircase down and there are no monsters in sight, TAKE IT. If there are any hard monsters, go back to the previous level immediately and exclude that staircase (ctrl+x for map mode, hit 'e' while examining the staircase tile) If there are no monsters around, explore for a little bit, grab any loot (this gets you loot earlier!), kill one or two easy monsters present, go back to the previous level and resume normal play.

Character suggestions:

Gargoyle or Minotaur Fighter of Okawaru with evocations:
The gargoyle has low HP but absurdly high AC, the minotaur has high HP, automatic retaliation and awesome combat skill aptitudes. Train the 4 essential skills (weapon of choice, shield, armor and fighting), invocations just enough to make Oka's powers reliable, and evocations as much as you want when you start finding evocable items. An evocations fighter with a couple of good rods can dish out terrifying amounts of damage even before getting in melee, and if you don't train other magic skills at all, getting rods from acquirement scrolls is easy peasy. Disc of Storms are also specially abusable with gargoyles since they have innate rElec. People will tell you to ignore shields in favour of two handed weapons, but if you're worrying about survivability, that makes little sense. Stick to shields, they're in the game for a reason. Choose a mace if going gargoyle, an axe if going minotaur. Use heroism liberally, use finesse sparingly (but don't be stingy!).

At high skill and with a good selection of gadgets, evocations can pretty much lay waste to anything.

Deep Dwarf Necromancer of Makhleb:
A classic. Spam pain until you get to XP level 3 (skip other spells for now) and when you reach XP level 3 learn Vampiric Draining. Together with Makhleb this gives deep dwarves three sources of HP gain. Then start branching into melee or making an undead army. When vampiric draining and Makhleb can't keep you in good shape, resort to the healing wand. When the healing wand is out of charges, recharge it.

Troll Berserker:
Swim swim hungry, swim swim hungry. Only with 'clawing' instead of 'swimming'. I can't tell much about this combo, but it was the first combo that carried me to XP level 13, waaaay back. Less thinking and more ripping everything to shreds with your claws (Choose claws, wielded weapons are for civilized pussies)

Ogre Hunter:
Ogres are cool, but hard to play. The thing is, if you go hunter you can choose LARGE ROCKS as your ranged weapon, and LARGE ROCKS are a wonderful panic button. Orc priest? LARGE ROCKS. Ghost, unique, or phantom? LARGE ROCKS. LARGE ROCKS can be a solution for most problems, as long as they last and are in your inventory. Put javelins to good use as soon as you find them. Choose whatever god you feel like, the hunter part is just for the guaranteed LARGE ROCKS and throwing skill. Since you've been playing ogre berserkers, you might as well worship Trog at the first altar you find, it'll be mostly the same but with the added benefit of LARGE ROCKS.

Tengu Conjurer of Vehumet or Dithmenos
Blast everything to oblivion until you die in a blaze of glory. Vehumet makes your blasty spells better and easier, and gives you MP on kills. Oh, also teaches you more spells. Dithmenos doesn't like fire, but makes you stealthier, harder to hit and at high piety may duplicate your spells when you cast them. Tengu are good with weapons too, but they are frail.

Naga of Cheibriados
Slow as fuck, and Cheibriados gets a lot of hate, but boosts your STR, INT and DEX like nobody's business, and when the Slouch ability gets online, you can pretty much nuke all the monsters in the screen (the faster they are, the more damage they take!) But you have to be very careful until your stats are all souped-up! Pick a background with ranged damage spells, then supplement them with throwing weaponry and a strong two-handed weapon, and play like a stationary fire platform. Cheibriados will enable you to dish it out with magic, ranged and melee at the same time. Just move AS LITTLE AS POSSIBLE.

Edit: Spelling hurr durr
Last edited by Psiweapon on Wednesday, 19th February 2014, 20:11, edited 1 time in total.
Hirsch I wrote:Also,are you calling me a power-gamer? this is highly offensive! now excuse me, I have to go back to my GrBe game, that I savescummed until trog gave me a Vampiric +9 claymore.

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Post Wednesday, 19th February 2014, 20:00

Re: Unable to proceed past the early game

Blowgun kills Gastro dead (this requires a lot of kiting, so free map space).
Regarding Necromancers, Animate Skeleton is something I learn on the first turn (unless I forget). I know some people hate minions, so if you hate them it's okay not to learn it, but it's a really powerful spell otherwise.
Played a bunch of Ne recently, I'd say it's borderline broken due to how well it scales.

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Post Wednesday, 19th February 2014, 20:25

Re: Unable to proceed past the early game

Sar wrote:Blowgun kills Gastro dead (this requires a lot of kiting, so free map space

Shoot from the maximum range, though, since he can air strike the shit out of you.

Sar

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Post Wednesday, 19th February 2014, 20:30

Re: Unable to proceed past the early game

Yes. Sorry I wasn't clear.

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Post Wednesday, 19th February 2014, 21:31

Re: Unable to proceed past the early game

Psiweapon wrote:Character suggestions:
(...)
Naga of Cheibriados


I would not recommend this combination, Chei is the second worst god in the game, and naga is one of the worst races for Chei.
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Post Wednesday, 19th February 2014, 21:40

Re: Unable to proceed past the early game

who is the first worst in your opinion?
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Post Wednesday, 19th February 2014, 21:49

Re: Unable to proceed past the early game

Hirsch I wrote:who is the first worst in your opinion?

Worst god? Xom, of course.
(Chei at least does not try to actively murder you, I have to give that to him.)
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Post Wednesday, 19th February 2014, 21:49

Re: Unable to proceed past the early game

Magipi wrote:
Psiweapon wrote:Character suggestions:
(...)
Naga of Cheibriados


I would not recommend this combination, Chei is the second worst god in the game, and naga is one of the worst races for Chei.


You are probably right, but hundreds of orcs resting in the embrace of Beogh say that's not gonna bring them back to life :mrgreen:

Also, if Chei is so bad, I don't think there's even a word in English to qualify him/her back in the day when s/he demanded followers to make their armour ponderous... :lol:
Hirsch I wrote:Also,are you calling me a power-gamer? this is highly offensive! now excuse me, I have to go back to my GrBe game, that I savescummed until trog gave me a Vampiric +9 claymore.

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Post Wednesday, 19th February 2014, 21:55

Re: Unable to proceed past the early game

As terrible as that was, it did have the effect of being in control of exactly how slow and terrible you were. IIRC Chei used to give you resistances, it's been a long time since I played old chei, but I remember getting firestorm on an MDFi of Chei - good times. I felt the lack of temporal distortion was worse, which made packs of ranged enemies, especially centaur packs, a real pain.

(Chei at least does not try to actively murder you, I have to give that to him.)


Actively murdered or passively murdered, dead is dead
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Post Wednesday, 19th February 2014, 22:20

Re: Unable to proceed past the early game

I really prefer xom over chei. random, but you normally can hope to escape things.
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Post Wednesday, 19th February 2014, 23:42

Re: Unable to proceed past the early game

Old Chei also allowed you to cast spider form to regain your speed (although you lost 15 to all stats in the process so it was rather inconvenient). Of course in 0.6 and 0.7 haste was also even better...

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Post Wednesday, 19th February 2014, 23:49

Re: Unable to proceed past the early game

with Chei there's a point where you don't run away from things anymore because you're casting tornado in heavy armor before your first rune. With Xom there's a point where you run out of curing.

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Post Thursday, 20th February 2014, 00:12

Re: Unable to proceed past the early game

dirtywick wrote:with Chei there's a point where you don't run away from things anymore because you're casting tornado in heavy armor before your first rune. With Xom there's a point where you run out of curing.


Uh... Yeah, I suppose that, according solely to the "casting tornado in heavy armor before your first rune" index, Chei is probably a bit better than Ash or Vehumet?
Last edited by and into on Thursday, 20th February 2014, 00:23, edited 1 time in total.

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Post Thursday, 20th February 2014, 00:15

Re: Unable to proceed past the early game

I would prefer light armour+haste.

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Post Thursday, 20th February 2014, 01:37

Re: Unable to proceed past the early game

and into wrote:
dirtywick wrote:with Chei there's a point where you don't run away from things anymore because you're casting tornado in heavy armor before your first rune. With Xom there's a point where you run out of curing.


Uh... Yeah, I suppose that, according solely to the "casting tornado in heavy armor before your first rune" index, Chei is probably a bit better than Ash or Vehumet?


I don't know. Seems irrelevant.
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Post Friday, 21st February 2014, 14:34

Re: Unable to proceed past the early game

Some down right funny posts here and some useful ones too. Sorry I haven't been available recently. Had a MTGO article to write and other things occupying my attention. I've done some runs with various Vms and my current one is a OcVM, still early on but I started getting the hang of it. The biggest difficulty being that some monsters just shrug at the whole Venom line. On a previous run my OcVm got to level 10 and was slain by a Basilisk in L1. Honestly though people have said otherwise I have found the Mines easier (except OM4). I was doing great, then splat! And yep I like the advice to try different things when it gets boring. That's been my approach all along which is why I am still plugging away at this.

I am sure this current run will splat eventually and then I'll start over again. I have shied away from Necromancer because the few times I played it, it seemed like a ton of overhead to keep up an undead army. I don't recall getting the Pain spell so maybe I'll try that angle again.

Thanks again for all the great insights into the game. I do recall it took me a while (many months) before I had some success in most of the other Roguelikes so I should expect no less here. Just need to keep my chin up, and change things up when I get frustrated/bored.

Sar

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Post Friday, 21st February 2014, 14:53

Re: Unable to proceed past the early game

Pain spell is the one Necromancers start with. Also, OpVM is not a very strong combo. Octopodes generally aren't very strong, but if I wanted to play one I'd probably go IE.
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Blades Runner

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Post Friday, 21st February 2014, 14:57

Re: Unable to proceed past the early game

Sar wrote:Pain spell is the one Necromancers start with. Also, OpVM is not a very strong combo. Octopodes generally aren't very strong, but if I wanted to play one I'd probably go IE.

The one that got to the Lair was doing OK. Killed a number of Uniques and it seemed like a decent combo because normally what I couldn't kill directly with poison or mephetic cloud I could strangle. Lots of kiting in that combo which seemed to work pretty well until I ran into the Basilisk. I will admit this current guy just died to an Ice Beast on level 4 so maybe it wasn't THAT great a combo but before that I was chugging along.

Dis Charger

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Post Friday, 21st February 2014, 15:11

Re: Unable to proceed past the early game

My Halflings seem to survive better than most other races. Probably because they have good defences and some other good apts. Try HaAs and start with 9 stealth and dodging until you get at least 20 EV, that will let you survive better. Curare is great for any stuff, like uniques or early hill giants(you shoot one and then use poisoned needles and then one again when he speeds up if he isn't dead enough). You can kill ogres by simply using poisoned needles(no need to waste curare) and even a lot of uniques. Most of my halflings survive places like elf:3 and zot:5 fairly easily. Pick up nets so that you can stab unpleasant stuff like spiny frogs or anything else you have problems with.
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