How to survive as a Naga

[Lasty]

This thread is about what to recommend to new players, so why are you arguing in favor of the combo here?

Also, the point I'm making totally skips pre-Lair questions: this is the odds of characters who made it to Lair while worshipping Chei of actually winning. These statistics clearly show that worshipping Chei more significantly tanks post-Lair naga survival than it does post-Lair human survival, which directly refutes the arguments you've been making.

[Sandman25]

before Temple/Lair

Uh, the whole point of Lasty's post was that Cheinagas are awful post-Lair too.

My experience is different.

[Sandman25]

This thread is about what to recommend to new players, so why are you arguing in favor of the combo here?

Also, the point I'm making totally skips pre-Lair questions: this is the odds of characters who made it to Lair while worshipping Chei of actually winning. These statistics clearly show that worshipping Chei more significantly tanks post-Lair naga survival than it does post-Lair human survival, which directly refutes the arguments you've been making.

The thread is called "how to survive as Naga" and you can re-read my comments in this thread to see that I am not suggesting Na of Chei to new players. I don't trust statistics in this case, many players can't use Na/Chei effectively but it does not mean that the combo is weak. It is a tricky species, a tricky god and a tricky combination. For example, I don't have wins with Ely/Zin but have 2 wins with Chei, does it mean that Chei is much better?

Edit. Also it looks like Na of Chei is not played by top players and I am sure it greatly affects statistics

[Lasty]

My experience is different.

Sandman25, I think we're all pretty clear that your personal experience of crawl is very, very different from (at least) most people in the Tavern. That's not necessarily bad, but it does mean that your advice rarely pertains to anyone else.

In this case, I have empirical data showing that, at the very least, your experience is very atypical. I provided the data because as long as we're just shouting "It did/didn't work for me!" at each other, we're achieving nothing whatsoever that will help anyone, least of all the relatively inexperienced player who started this topic and who, theoretically, we should be focused on helping.

The thread is called "how to survive as Naga" and you can re-read my comments in this thread to see that I am not suggesting Na of Chei to new players. I don't trust statistics in this case, many players can't use Na/Chei effectively but it does not mean that the combo is weak. It is a tricky species, a tricky god and a tricky combination. For example, I don't have wins with Ely/Zin but have 2 wins with Chei, does it mean that Chei is much better?

Did you read the first post? This is clearly a thread posted by someone who is finding nagas challenging, and who wants advice that will change that situation. In the same way that there's no reason to go into a thread asking for advice and a three-rune game and offer your own idiosyncratic way to approach fighting Cerebov, there's no reason to talk about your own idiosyncratic opinions on very challenging naga/god combos in this thread.

No one trusts statistics when the statistics would force them to reevaluate a deeply-held belief.

[Zwobot]

This thread is about what to recommend to new players, so why are you arguing in favor of the combo here?

Also, the point I'm making totally skips pre-Lair questions: this is the odds of characters who made it to Lair while worshipping Chei of actually winning. These statistics clearly show that worshipping Chei more significantly tanks post-Lair naga survival than it does post-Lair human survival, which directly refutes the arguments you've been making.

I have a sneaky suspicion that a lot of those lost games are from new players reading guides which suggest Naga of Chei as good combo - and thus are a bit skewed.

As for actual tips - in my opinion KoboldLord's post on the first page (the one with the many, many thanks ) basically works as mini guide.

I'll add a few: Wands of digging can create hallways in a pinch - even better you can use them to create cheesy little zig-zag hallways so you only have to fight one monster at a time. Be aware of which monsters tend to come in packs (wights, bees, orcs, gnolls, blank frogs and so on) and handle those with extreme care. Some spells are extremely noisy - in open layouts THINK before using them (Mephitic cloud, Lightning bolt, Fulminant Prism (and possibly others)).

Other tricks for running away: Use wand of enslavement/confuse/paralysis on low MR monsters for a fighting retreat or to clog up a hallway. Use haste. Or just teleport out - but do it either early - or when you've already cleared most of the level.

[Lasty]

I have a sneaky suspicion that a lot of those lost games are from new players reading guides which suggest Naga of Chei as good combo - and thus are a bit skewed.

Edit. Also it looks like Na of Chei is not played by top players and I am sure it greatly affects statistics

Arguments like these are really weird. They appear to be offered in an attempt to refute the statistics I offered, but they seem to actually just concede the argument entirely. Yes, good players know better than to worship Chei as a naga. Yes, new players that are recommended Na^Chei tend to die. You make it sound like these factors are complete coincidences that have no relationship whatsoever to what we're discussing. These things are true because Chei is bad for nagas, and as a result, no one should recommend Chei for nagas in a thread where someone is asking for help.

Remember, these are characters that already made it to Lair. They survived the hardest part of the game (particularly the Chei game) and they got to the giant basket of free XP and floor loot that is Lair, and yet they still died at much greater rates than their non-Chei peers. Much, much greater.

[Sar]

does not mean that the combo is weak. It is a tricky species, a tricky god and a tricky combination

I think a lot of people misunderstand what "bad combo", "bad race" and "bad god" mean. Crawl is not a particularly hard game. You can win any race/god/class combo. With some dedication, you can even maintain a decent win rate! The difference between a bad character and a good character is that good character is harder to kill by misplay. Because we are all (well, most of us are) human and we do make mistakes. New players make more mistakes. A character that takes almost 3 times longer per move compared to normal character leaves little room to positioning errors, for example.

So, tricky means bad, or, rather, weak. That doesn't mean you should not enjoy it, but let's not pretend it's strong.

[Sandman25]

Sandman25, I think we're all pretty clear that your personal experience of crawl is very, very different from (at least) most people in the Tavern. That's not necessarily bad, but it does mean that your advice rarely pertains to anyone else.

Well, you are partially right here. But that's why I am trying to share my experience.

In this case, I have empirical data showing that, at the very least, your experience is very atypical. I provided the data because as long as we're just shouting "It did/didn't work for me!" at each other, we're achieving nothing whatsoever that will help anyone, least of all the relatively inexperienced player who started this topic and who, theoretically, we should be focused on helping. .

Ok, I agree, many players forget to use god abilities (I am still one of them). Chei is the hardest god in this regard too, you can't just play pretending his abilities don't exist like you can with some other gods. Do you want me to pick first available morgue with dead Chei character and find that the death was not caused by Chei, but by bad play?

Did you read the first post? This is clearly a thread posted by someone who is finding nagas challenging, and who wants advice that will change that situation. In the same way that there's no reason to go into a thread asking for advice and a three-rune game and offer your own idiosyncratic way to approach fighting Cerebov, there's no reason to talk about your own idiosyncratic opinions on very challenging naga/god combos in this thread.

No one trusts statistics when the statistics would force them to reevaluate a deeply-held belief.

Yes, I read the first post. But I couldn't keep silent when I saw "Worshiping Chei while playing as a Naga is probably the worst possible decision you could make, unless you're some sort of masochist.". It's harassment towards people who enjoy Na of Chei (I am one of them as you see).

[and into]

Well here's another way to think about it:

At any stage of play experience, it is important that you learn something new from each death that you can apply to your next game. For new players in particular though, you want to maximize how much generally applicable information you can glean from each death.

Naga is already radically different than any other species on basis of slow movement, and Chei makes your game even more radically different from any other kind of god (or non-worshiping) game that you will play. So Na^Chei is basically among the nichest of the niche—up there with Mu^Chei and Mu^CK. So what is a new, or even intermediate, player going to learn about Crawl by playing it?

In a *best* case scenario, by playing as Na^Chei a new player may learn, upon their death, that movement is extremely important and thus Na, and Na^Chei triply so, is strange and challenging and can easily put you in unavoidable-death situations from which you cannot learn any generally useful information that applies to any other build, including those builds that are more forgiving and thus much more reasonable for newer players. But it is extremely unlikely that new players will draw that (correct) lesson from their experience. Most likely a new player will simply be confused about why they died and will not realize that they died primarily because of the keys they pressed during character creation and the god that they chose. It will especially be hard to draw the appropriate lesson when/if people who have more experience playing DCSS lie to them about Na^Chei being a strong (by reasonable DCSS standards of what makes something strong) combination .

[Magipi]

Crawl is not a particularly hard game. You can win any race/god/class combo. With some dedication, you can even maintain a decent win rate!

Well, it is a game in which a winrate of 20% shows a very rare and great player. (And some great players are even below 5%). "Not a particularly hard game"?

[Klown]

This got pretty offtopic. Different playstyles lead to different results and opinions. No need to debate it. The guy can try out all the advice given here and gain his own opinion.

Anyone who puts down another's opinion is surely the true fool with the inferior opinion.

[Magipi]

...

[Magipi]

Crawl is not a particularly hard game. You can win any race/god/class combo. With some dedication, you can even maintain a decent win rate!

Well, it is a game in which a winrate of 20% shows a very rare and great player. (And some great players are even below 5%). "Not a particularly hard game"?

And there are hundreds of common players who play for years without ever winning.

[Sandman25]

Crawl is not a particularly hard game. You can win any race/god/class combo. With some dedication, you can even maintain a decent win rate!

Well, it is a game in which a winrate of 20% shows a very rare and great player. (And some great players are even below 5%). "Not a particularly hard game"?

Well, some top players don't care about win rate, you can see it from multiple quits on turn 1 or real time speed running with xxCK. So higher win rate does not necessarily mean better player.

PS. I still don't understand how minmay and wheals can play so fast, I would be dead in 5 minutes with that speed. Though both play console, it explains only a bit.

[Cynry]

Yes, I read the first post. But I couldn't keep silent when I saw "Worshiping Chei while playing as a Naga is probably the worst possible decision you could make, unless you're some sort of masochist.". It's harassment towards people who enjoy Na of Chei (I am one of them as you see).

Seriously ?
Here, let me help you
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harassment

[Zwobot]

I have a sneaky suspicion that a lot of those lost games are from new players reading guides which suggest Naga of Chei as good combo - and thus are a bit skewed.

Edit. Also it looks like Na of Chei is not played by top players and I am sure it greatly affects statistics

Arguments like these are really weird. They appear to be offered in an attempt to refute the statistics I offered, but they seem to actually just concede the argument entirely. (...)

Uhm, sorry? To clarify: I was just making an observation - which I found amusing. I didn't mean to imply that your conclusions were wrong.

[Sandman25]

Yes, I read the first post. But I couldn't keep silent when I saw "Worshiping Chei while playing as a Naga is probably the worst possible decision you could make, unless you're some sort of masochist.". It's harassment towards people who enjoy Na of Chei (I am one of them as you see).

Seriously ?
Here, let me help you
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harassment

I don't speak English well enough and I know I used a wrong word. But calling someone masochist is bad, isn't it?

[Sandman25]

I have a sneaky suspicion that a lot of those lost games are from new players reading guides which suggest Naga of Chei as good combo - and thus are a bit skewed.

Edit. Also it looks like Na of Chei is not played by top players and I am sure it greatly affects statistics

Arguments like these are really weird. They appear to be offered in an attempt to refute the statistics I offered, but they seem to actually just concede the argument entirely. (...)

Uhm, sorry? To clarify: I was just making an observation - which I found amusing. I didn't mean to imply that your conclusions were wrong.

That's because this conclusion can't be wrong. Yes, Naga is hard for most players. Yes, most players are bad at crawl because this game requires extensive knowledge and very careful play during several hours. I am sure it is correlated.

[Klown]

Train Fighting early(alongside your weapon/etc. of choice). That 20% more HP base of the Naga makes you gain more HP than average with fighting(iirc). Can make a difference on a slow & half-armor species like Naga.

[dck]

This got pretty offtopic. Different playstyles lead to different results and opinions. No need to debate it. The guy can try out all the advice given here and gain his own opinion.

Anyone who puts down another's opinion is surely the true fool with the inferior opinion.

The more I read this the more stupid it becomes.
If someone asks you for help, you help him. If you see someone camouflaging harmful advice as good one and don't say anything or even feel the sting of conscience telling you it's not okay to let people who don't know better be lied to like that, there's something wrong with you.
"No need to debate it" my ass, the wiki is a terrible place because anyone is allowed to say whatever with nothing solid to back it up. That cankerous behavior stems from people being unable to correct others or question what they say, lest precious egos be bruised, when it is obvious in many occasions they could care less about the actual person in need of help and they just wish to showcase their grandiose knowledge.
No I'm sorry but you can't just dish out advice of very different qualities and make it monochromatic like that.

[Klown]

Can you get on topic, Sir? Trolls these days.

[Laraso]

This got pretty offtopic. Different playstyles lead to different results and opinions. No need to debate it. The guy can try out all the advice given here and gain his own opinion.

Anyone who puts down another's opinion is surely the true fool with the inferior opinion.

Can you get on topic, Sir? Trolls these days.

Klown, this has nothing to do with opinions. Might I remind you that the original post of this thread was made by someone who was asking for help on understanding how to play a Naga after suffering due to their slow speed, it doesn't make sense to then recommend the slow god which will make him even slower.

"Worshiping Chei while playing as a Naga is probably the worst possible decision you could make, unless you're some sort of masochist.". It's harassment towards people who enjoy Na of Chei (I am one of them as you see).

I used the term "masochist" to emphasize the fact that taking 28 aut to move one space is painfully slow, and worshiping Chei as a Naga will generally make the game harder than it would be otherwise. I did not literally mean that anyone who worships Chei while playing a Naga gets sexually aroused by pain, so please stop trying to make it seem as if I was attempting to harass you.

[Lasty]

This got pretty offtopic. Different playstyles lead to different results and opinions. No need to debate it. The guy can try out all the advice given here and gain his own opinion.

Anyone who puts down another's opinion is surely the true fool with the inferior opinion.

What you're saying is trivially false.

Opinion 1: it's easier to kill a monster by attacking it then by resting.
Opinion 2: it's easier to kill a monster by resting than by attacking it.

One of these opinions is false, and if you allow that opinion to stand on equal footing with the first, you're doing a massive disservice to anyone who is looking for information on the topic. The only reason to pretend that all opinions are equal is to protect people who want to offer opinions but who can't take being wrong.

Sometimes you will be wrong. The adult response to being wrong is to acknowledge it, learn the lesson, and move on. Being wrong doesn't hurt, and if you allow yourself to acknowledge it, you'll find that it raises other people's estimation of you rather than lowering it.

Opinions aren't magical things immune to criticism or correction. Part of joining the adult world is being able to hold an adult conversation which may involve challenging your opinions and maybe even causing them to change.

[Sandman25]

It's getting ridiculous. One poster threatens, another uses "reduction to an absurdity" method ignoring "Different playstyles lead to different results and opinions". I am out, I don't understand how to use logical arguments here.

[tasonir]

For clarity, I don't consider Na* of Chei to be an easy combo, they are extremely difficult early on. In .10 it was somewhat reasonable, but the point of my guide wasn't that this is an easy combo, but that it's a fun combo that I like playing and it can get very strong later on. I don't know if I'd necessarily say "after lair", maybe more like "after lair and orc and when you have a barding", but somewhere along those lines. Depends on your items somewhat. I pick Chei because chei is awesome, not because I'm trying to streak. I have only one streak of 2 wins, I'm a good but not top-tier player, and I would never consider naga of chei for my streak (I played a MfGl with a bardiche and haste, just like everyone else: http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/tasonir/mor ... 061717.txt).

I'd like to update the guide considerably but my wiki account has expired/been cleaned up/deleted as revenge/etc. I've PMed moogledan about it, hopefully I'll be able to edit it soon. Also everyone please calm down in this thread

[Grimm]

A report was punched on this. Shut down until there's a good reason to open it.

People, always take the high road in the Tavern. Don't fight. This isn't a conflict over vital resources such as water. It's a computer game.