A multi-character outline to help people diversify builds?

[Pollen_Golem]

There are good character guides for beginner players, and that's all great. What's missing on the wiki, though, is a recommendation for transitioning from one kind of character to another. I think beginners tend to flesh out their melee characters, trying out species after species but pursuing the same basic melee build. Players become too familiar with Okawaru and Trog to try other gods. I think the wiki could use another kind of guide for beginners, one that suggests a whole series of builds. About 30 builds, that run the whole gamut of species, backgrounds, gods, and skills, in good combinations. I can write a guide like this myself, even though I'm better at analyzing synergetic combinations than I am at actually playing the game - I haven't even got a rune yet. So I wonder if I should contribute something like that.

[Sar]

I haven't even got a rune yet

Sounds like you're qualified to write a wiki guide then!

[tabstorm]

Not to be mean, but if you've gotten 0 runes, your analyses will probably make a lot of other people also fail to get runes. You shouldn't write guides on a game you haven't come close to completing.

[Pollen_Golem]

You are such a funny guy Sar.

It is a wiki, so you know, it's decentralized. I assume people just log in and edit the guides of others, so it wouldn't be *my* thing. The problem with more experienced players is that they may not even recognize the need for such a guide. It's all more about using mechanics players know already than about familiarizing novices. Or it's to help players get the easiest possible win. And I don't doubt people will get killed for reading a beginner's guide, cause that's what beginners do.

Besides you can have like a fat old sportscaster and not play.

[Turukano]

There are good character guides for beginner players, and that's all great.

Every now and then there are controversial discussions in the tavern about the wiki. The point is that the wiki

• is a nice source for looking up things
• contains inaccuracies/mistakes

I always used the wiki and if there are mistakes - well, I don't care too much. I got more than one rune after years of playing and I hope I can identify most wiki errors when I read them.

The problem is that some of the "guides" are definitely bad. The wiki team reacted to lots of criticism by adding the message

This article contains advice from other players, and may be subjective and/or outdated. Read at your own risk and alter to fit your play style as necessary!

I'm not sure if this warning is enough. I once suggested to replace the name "guide" by another expression ("player experience" e.g.) but the name "guide" is still in use. You can read the guides but be careful, some of them were written by inexperienced players.

Proposal: additionally ask here in the forum (there are some very experienced players here, their name is usually shown in dark blue) or play online and get help by chatting.

You are very welcome to write a new (and good) guide for the wiki but I'd wait until you get some wins.

Good luck!

[and into]

And I don't doubt people will get killed for reading a beginner's guide, cause that's what beginners do.

There are guides on the wiki that people have followed, assuming they had been written to help them and vetted by others collaboratively, and which instead caused them to waste hours of time IRL scumming off Nemelex piety with mummies and doing other silly stuff that new players should not be doing.

Write a guide, don't write a guide—it is up to you. But please do not write the sort of guide that causes people unnecessary frustration.

[moocowmoocow]

Winning is less about "builds" than it is about habits, positioning and threat assessment. Those things come from experience and perhaps spectating others. Inevitably, because of RNG, players have to plan on the fly anyway. Hence a guide should either cover all contingencies in one specific combo, or else teach very general principles that apply to all combos. A guide of 30 builds would be useless at best.

[scorpionwarrior]

The more specific crawl advice is, the more you should question it. Even very experienced players can fall into the trap of giving advice that is too situational, and most wiki guides are the epitome of situational advice (the game is too random for most humans to fathom even after dozens or hundreds of hours of experience)

[moocowmoocow]

There are guides on the wiki that people have followed, assuming they had been written to help them and vetted by others collaboratively, and which instead caused them to waste hours of time IRL scumming off Nemelex piety with mummies and doing other silly stuff that new players should not be doing.

Ugh yeah... I remember one of the first guides I followed was a mummy that was supposed to get gifts from kiku, then sit in temple and wait out wrath to join sif. I diligently did this every game, lol. Oh, it's still online in archive!

http://crawl.chaosforge.org/CapnCrunch% ... zard_guide

[Pollen_Golem]

Winning is less about "builds" than it is about ...

Perhaps this is most true. The builds I'm talking about are supposed to be best for discovering the game, not winning it. Not all ways of exploring DCSS are equal. And assessing the best way to learn the game takes a different set of skills from knowing how to beat it.

[rchandra]

Playing the first god you see (unless truly, truly awful - do not abuse this!) is a good way to break out of ruts, and also a decent strategy.

[bel]

Wiki's guides are misnamed. They should just be called "experience", or "sample run".

As long as you understand it that way, some can be very helpful. I learnt about Na of Chei using Tasonir's guide (which is pretty good), and learnt DECj using the guide for that one (which is not good, now that I know a bit more about the game, but it was still helpful). On the other hand, there are some truly awful guides, like the one which proclaims: "noise is good, visit each level from each of the three staircases and shout, so you know what shouts back".

That said, I agree that you should postpone writing a guide till you are more experienced. But, of course, nobody is stopping you.

[Sandman25]

What is the difference between guides for beginners and guides for experienced players? Explanation of how noise works and advices like "Retreat to explored territory before fighting"? Those apply to all builds IMHO.

[Eyesburn]

Well you can start writing something like diaries of your played games.
There are some kind of diaries on the wiki I remember I enjoyed reading some of those.
http://crawl.chaosforge.org/Category:Diary_of_a_Crawler

[Turukano]

The builds I'm talking about are supposed to be best for discovering the game

In this case the wiki is fine with its first and second recommendation in background and race combinations for beginners:

Troll Berserker: For the newcomer of this game. Even being listed in tutorial, but this combination is sufficiently strong until mid-game, helping the player to understand the basic game system.

(Minotaur/Hill Orc) (Berserker/Fighter) (strategy guide): Pure melee builds. Find a big weapon and the heaviest armour, worship Trog or Okawaru and beat things to death. One can try Makhleb or The Shining One for 15 rune gameplay.

I had a short look at Vigrid's Hill Orc Fighter Guide and doubt I would recommend every piece of advice of it.

Players become too familiar with Okawaru and Trog to try other gods.

Trog and Oka are for sure very good gods for new players.

[Sandman25]

By the way there is nothing wrong with being too familiar with Trog/Oka or anything else. "New players" does not mean "stupid players", they will quickly learn that other gods don't provide Berserk/Finesse and don't gift weapons

[Rast]

There are guides on the wiki that people have followed, assuming they had been written to help them and vetted by others collaboratively, and which instead caused them to waste hours of time IRL scumming off Nemelex piety with mummies and doing other silly stuff that new players should not be doing.

Ugh yeah... I remember one of the first guides I followed was a mummy that was supposed to get gifts from kiku, then sit in temple and wait out wrath to join sif. I diligently did this every game, lol. Oh, it's still online in archive!

http://crawl.chaosforge.org/CapnCrunch% ... zard_guide

Me too. I never got as far as maxing Kiku piety... One of the worst guides on the wiki IMO.

A lot of the other guides are basically "Here is what I did in my first or second win ever, therefore these exact steps are a good character build". In reality, the player only won because he found +6 ring of slaying on D:2 and brooch of Shielding on D:5 and vampiric axe on Orc:3.

[Turukano]

Wiki's guides are misnamed. They should just be called "experience", or "sample run".

As the discussion about wiki guides goes on I'd like to mention that even a guide by a good player - he won dozens of online games - is dubious imo. The TrCj guide made me play this char for a while and I was really happy when my Tr of Veh died somewhere in spider:5. Trolls' conjurations aptitude is -3 but I don't want to discuss this guide.

Disregarding the fact that there might be useful guides I'd like to ask the members of the wiki team (again) to remove the name "guide". Would you mind renaming it to "sample run", "diary" or whatever?

I really appreciate the work you do on the wiki and I think the simple change of a misleading expression would make the wiki better.

[Pollen_Golem]

Let's see how a typical crawl player probably starts his first few games (experienced spectators can correct me on this):
MuDK
HuFi
OgFi
OgGl
OgBe
DDBe
MiBe
TeBe
DsNe
DEWi
HEHu
SpBe
SpAs
SpAs
SpAs
MiFi of Zin
MiFi of Okawaru
MiFi of Fedhas
I would argue that having no understanding of crawl leads to a suboptimal learning curve, so a beginner's experience of the first dozen or more hours of gameplay are diminished as a result. And there's a great benefit to sticking with a few archetypal builds, because (say in several runs of MiBe) you will correctly attribute the differences to unique variations between games, not to variations in the build as you might if you ran a succession of various-race berserkers.

[tabstorm]

First you should play a MiBe so you can learn what all the enemies can do to you. Then try playing one of the warrior backgrounds with one of the hardier races or 0-apt races to get used to being godless for the first few floors, and don't take trog this time. Then try playing some of the flat-ish apt races with a mage background to learn how much worse those races are than minotaurs, and how you should play most mages: by becoming "not a mage" once you can cast the spell in your book that will keep you alive while you train weapon skill. From there just try out different races, classes, and gods.

[Pollen_Golem]

From there just try out different races, classes, and gods.

Spreading your efforts out over the hundreds of effective combos is a good way to induce Beginner's Ennui. Tell me I'm wrong.

[Sar]

You're wrong!

[tabstorm]

From there just try out different races, classes, and gods.

Spreading your efforts out over the hundreds of effective combos is a good way to induce Beginner's Ennui. Tell me I'm wrong.

Notice how it's like the 4th thing on my list after you've won a few easier games.

[Pollen_Golem]

I'm kinda stretching the definition of Beginner to mean ~ one inexperienced with half the gods/species.

[tasonir]

Awww man, this thread blew up before I even had a chance to come by!

The problem with guides is it's a very tricky thing to balance between being general enough and yet detailed enough to provide the information a new player is missing. Add to this that most people who write guides do so after winning a combination once, and they tend to be overly specific and often contain things that happened to work once, but are not good repeatable strategy. A lot of these issues could be improved if guide writers were required to win the combo at least 3 times, and post all of the morgues.

I may be slightly biased, of course, because this is what I've done for my guide: http://crawl.chaosforge.org/Tasonir%27s ... Naga_Guide

The main problem I have with my own guide now is that there isn't really any need to tie to nagas - it applies pretty well to so many races. But making it more general means losing some of the details that newbies don't yet understand, or else I have to make it considerably longer with details for each race. And it's already pretty long.

The fact remains that there is no good universal guide for learning crawl from the ground up. This is something I've tried to improve, but writing a good guide is actually extremely difficult, and so while I think I've done a pretty good job at it, it's definitely not perfect. I'm a fairly good player, but there are definitely better than me out there.

I should update the morgues list on my wiki guide, but for now, basically any character on here that is of cheibriados is the same concept - I don't play casters of chei much, and if they used a ranged weapon, it's still pretty much identical to a melee build, you're just training a ranged weapon instead, and have melee as backup. A few of my hunters started out with slings for early power, and then switch over entirely to unarmed. Just pick any chei character and read the action table: http://crawl.akrasiac.org/scoring/players/tasonir.html

[Wahaha]

It is true that experienced players don't need build suggestions, but beginners, the target demographic here, could definitely benefit from knowing certain race+class combinations that work well, and that are different from MiBe and DEWz. Because some beginners want to play a combo that is 1. Not too hard and 2. Fairly different. They want a guarantee of picking such a combo, and they're not experienced enough to know what is viable and what isn't, and that's why build suggestions are useful. Yes you could say "just pick whatever and try to play well and it will be kind of ok" but that is worse for the beginner's learning experience than saying play X and do Y. I support this idea, although it only takes like 30 minutes to type up some combos and general strats, so anyone could easily do it.

[Sar]

I don't know, I think Crawl has enough support for some obvious character archetypes one would want to play. It's obvious to a new player that a Conj-heavy Troll is not a good idea (it's less obvious that a Conj-heavy HO is a good idea, though). Generally it shouldn't be hard for a player who has some game experience to look at, say, species screen and say "I want to play a Ds because they sounds rad; they're good as Ne and Su and those classes also sound thematic" or something like that - I'm not sure why a list would be necessary.

[WalrusKing]

There's a LOT of different ways to experience crawl. I've recently started hitting '!' on the character select screen as my method of selecting a start, and then running that start into the ground three or so times before moving on to the next. While I am far from good, this has improved my understanding of the game immensely compared to just choosing MiFi each time (and I'd note that I'm pretty sure I probably qualify as a beginner). Before I started doing this thing I'm doing now, I used to hit '#' alot, and in my mind it is sufficient for providing newcomers with reasonable combos. Is anything more really necessary?

[Pollen_Golem]

When you fail and die early on as a novice, don't abandon the original plans you had for the character, don't tweak it by swapping the species, and instead, try it again and again until it works. But 1)you gotta pick a viable build so you're not chasing wild geese and 2)you don't want your next character to play so similar to the ones you've already made work e.g. OgBe -> MfBe, and this becomes less and less possible the more builds you've made work without looking ahead at your future crawlers. Would you tell your past self to learn DCSS any different?

I already started. I'm not looking to become another CapnCrunch so feel free to take over. Here's my list of recommended archetypes, with no regard to post-lair viability, in order of increasing challenge (not difficulty). The rest of the guide, if it's necessary, writes itself. Most of the "guide" would be a rationale for why the combo is a synergetic one. Hell, the character selection screen doesn't tell you why it recommends some backgrounds over others! I'm sure players will figure out on their own the best way to plan a particular combo. You can't be stupid and play Crawl.

TrCK of Xom, throwing
FeBe of Trog
MiFi of Zin, long blades
TeAE of Vehumet
SpAs of Dithmenos
VpEn of Ashenzari
HaWr of Okawaru, slings
OgAr of Nemelex
HEAM of Chei
NaGl of Ru, axes or maces&flails, sacrifice hand
DgTm of Nobody
KoHu of Yred, crossbows
DENe of Kiku
GlGl of Kiku, staves, necromancy, evocations
HOFi of Beogh
VSSk of Makhleb
DrCj of Vehumet
GrEE of Qazlal
FoDK of Lugonu, polearms
HOFE of TSO
OpVM of Sif Muna
FeWi of Sif Muna
DDFi of Elyvilon
MuIE of Gozag
MfGl of Fedhas
CeSu of Xom, join and abandon Nemelex first
DsMo of Jyiva
HuWn of rchandra

[Sandman25]

It is true that experienced players don't need build suggestions, but beginners, the target demographic here, could definitely benefit from knowing certain race+class combinations that work well, and that are different from MiBe and DEWz. Because some beginners want to play a combo that is 1. Not too hard and 2. Fairly different. They want a guarantee of picking such a combo, and they're not experienced enough to know what is viable and what isn't, and that's why build suggestions are useful. Yes you could say "just pick whatever and try to play well and it will be kind of ok" but that is worse for the beginner's learning experience than saying play X and do Y. I support this idea, although it only takes like 30 minutes to type up some combos and general strats, so anyone could easily do it.

Crawl provides a list of suggested species/backgrounds when starting a game. For instance, if a new player wants to play a Cj and picks Cj first, she will see that DE/HE/Na/Te/Dr/Dg are recommended. All of them are pretty powerful and good for learning. If player tries them all, she will see how different their abilities/aptitudes/HP are.

[Arrhythmia]

You can't be stupid and play Crawl.

and yet, gdd exists

[Sar]

Pollen_Golem, some of your recommended combos are way too specific (weapon types). Also "NaGl of Ru, axes or maces&flails, sacrifice hand", why would you ever sac a hand on a Naga? Why would you want to use one-handed axes without even a shield?

[Pollen_Golem]

hand is the greatest sac, most will avoid it, but you gotta try it out sometime. It's worst in late-game which is of limited concern here. Cleaving helps nagas who have trouble retreating to a corridor and get swarmed. And shields are rare enough that you might clear orc+lair without finding one. Cleaving aside, maces&flails seem best and most common 1H weapons.

way too specific - do you mean the minotaur? Well, who's a better candidate for long blades?

[Sar]

Whoever finds a good long blade? Also shields aren't that rare and they're pretty okay for Nagas in my experience - both because of lowered requirements and because Naga defences tend to suck in early-mid game (except for HP). Broad axes are probably rare than shields, and broad axes are the only good one-handed axes - if you didn't find one you are stuck with a war axe, which is pretty bad!

[Sandman25]

If you want to sacrifice a hand, play Sp with short blades or any species with UC IMHO

[Eyesburn]

TrCK of Xom, throwing
FeBe of Trog
MiFi of Zin, long blades
TeAE of Vehumet
SpAs of Dithmenos
VpEn of Ashenzari
HaWr of Okawaru, slings
OgAr of Nemelex
HEAM of Chei
NaGl of Ru, axes or maces&flails, sacrifice hand
DgTm of Nobody
KoHu of Yred, crossbows
DENe of Kiku
GlGl of Kiku, staves, necromancy, evocations
HOFi of Beogh
VSSk of Makhleb
DrCj of Vehumet
GrEE of Qazlal
FoDK of Lugonu, polearms
HOFE of TSO
OpVM of Sif Muna
FeWi of Sif Muna
DDFi of Elyvilon
MuIE of Gozag
MfGl of Fedhas
CeSu of Xom, join and abandon Nemelex first
DsMo of Jyiva
HuWn of rchandra

You have played/tried all those combos?
Some of them I would not recommend to newcomers.
And even experienced players would have troubles with some of listed combos.
This list looks like Nemelex' Choice.

[Sandman25]

This list looks like Nemelex' Choice.

Very true. TrCK of Xom with throwing as the easiest combo???
I believe ranged character don't work quite well with Xom, losing all your large rocks after Xom causes a teleport is unlikely to be fun.

[DrKe]

I'm not a big fan of thinking of characters as XxXx of (god) , there are a lot of gods that are viable for any given combo and you should just decide after finding an altar whether you feel like trying that god or not. Beginners can look up how said god works and decide if they want to play it.

[Magipi]

Let's see how a typical crawl player probably starts his first few games (experienced spectators can correct me on this):
MuDK
(...)

I'm already lost. Who would ever play a MuDK as a first character? Or even as one of the first 100?

[Pollen_Golem]

Let's see how a typical crawl player probably starts his first few games (experienced spectators can correct me on this):
MuDK
(...)

I'm already lost. Who would ever play a MuDK as a first character? Or even as one of the first 100?

Cause it sounds cool. You're not gonna pore over guides before trying the game, right?

[Pollen_Golem]

If you want to sacrifice a hand, play Sp with short blades or any species with UC IMHO

I tried to maximize the potential to use god abilities. Where a naga would invoke Ru, a Sp would run. Maybe a kobold???

[Sandman25]

I tried to maximize the potential to use god abilities. Where a naga would invoke Ru, a Sp would run. Maybe a kobold???

I think such gods as Ru/Makhleb/Qazlal give more benefits to characters in heavy armour who don't cast damaging spells. Mi/Tr/Og/HO/Gh/Mu etc.

[Pollen_Golem]

Point taken but

Ru... in heavy armour .

So Ru followers typically sac nimbleness?

Qazlal .,..who don't cast damaging spells.

But Qazlal also grants immunity to your own clouds, and renders moot a big drawback of the noisy earth/fire/conjuration magic. And I believe you could turn ye old mephitic cloud into friendly elementals, though I have not tested this.

[Sandman25]

So Ru followers typically sac nimbleness?

I don't know, I played Ru twice and never rejected sacrifices so I picked the least evil option.

But Qazlal also grants immunity to your own clouds, and renders moot a big drawback of the noisy earth/fire/conjuration magic. And I believe you could turn ye old mephitic cloud into friendly elementals, though I have not tested this.

Casters cannot rely on MP alone with the noise Qazlal generates so it will be a melee character with some magic support, not a caster with some melee support. The only exception might be Sp who can run away but Sp can do whatever it wants.

[Pollen_Golem]

Some of [those combos] I would not recommend to newcomers.

Yeah well there are entire SPECIES and GODS that are bad for newcomers. More than half of those combos are incontrovertible.

But you see what the list is about? 26 species, 25 backgrounds, 22 gods, 28 combos. I'd like to see a better compilation. Multi-faceted gods/species are explored from two angles. Except for the gifts troglodytes may receive - that's a regrettable loophole.

[mps]

You can and should learn about these kinds of things by speccing people online, if you don't want to learn them first hand. Ask people questions in tileschat and as long as you aren't a complete pain in the ass, people will help. (This is somewhat less true of tavern...) The guides on the wiki should be replaced with a notice that says "If you want to learn how to play crawl, go watch people play and talk to them about things after playing a little yourself." Like, people on cszo literally hang around in tileschat and tell inexperienced players what to do in a tight spot if they ask. They also hang around and give stupid advice to more experienced players (for example, I like to do this).

[Eyesburn]

A multi-character guide for beginners

Yeah well there are entire SPECIES and GODS that are bad for newcomers.

Newcomers should have fun, not frustration.

I'd like to see a better compilation.

Nemelex' Choice or Crawl Sudden Death Challenges

[Pollen_Golem]

A multi-character guide for beginners

Yeah well there are entire SPECIES and GODS that are bad for newcomers.

Newcomers should have fun, not frustration.

The price of tea in China just rose. Expand?

[tasonir]

Recommended beginner combos that are hopefully a bit easier:

Gods are roughly in order for my first recommendation, but varies heavily to taste.

Minotaur fighter, gladiator, or berserker. Pick any good weapon and beat things over the head. Gods: Trog, Okawaru, Makhleb. Alternate races: gargoyle, Vine stalker, centaur, ogre, troll.

Centaur hunter, arcane marksman, or gladiator. Train bows (if you're a gladiator, start with your melee weapon and then train bows when you find one). Gods: Okawaru, trog. This is a clear case of centaur doing this better than anyone else, but for other races: kobold (crossbows), halflings (slings), tengu (bows or xbows), high elf (bows).

Deep elf Conjurer, fire elementalist, earth elementalist, ice elementalist. I prefer conjurers since nothing resists pure conjurations, but whatever floats your boat is fine. You could even do an Air elementalist, but I don't like them. Gods: Vehemut, Sif Muna, Ashenzari. Other races: draconians, naga, demonspawn, humans, vine stalker, spriggan.

Cheibriados puncher: My favorite build, works on a ton of races. In *rough* order, easiest to hardest: Vine stalker, gargoyle, Minotuar, troll, ogre demonspawn, draconian, naga, centaur, spriggan, felid, octopode, formicid, ghoul. Backgrounds: monk, transmuter, hunter, fighter, gladiator. Train unarmed, eventually move into transmutations. Pick up Chei, late game if you can find some translocations spells (mostly controlled blink) that can help offset being with chei. It isn't required, though. What transmutation you use depends on your race: I generally like statue form, but races with built in armor (naga, gargoyle, draconian) might want to keep that and stick with blade hands. Blade hands is a good choice on all races as well, I just tend to prefer defensive builds. Hunter background is there to pick up a cheap ranged weapon to help with the early game; this usually means slings (needs very little skill to work well) to help you survive early chei floors, until you build up piety. Unarmed is not required - you can replace unarmed with a weapon, I just prefer unarmed with chei - the bonus stats have the largest impact on transmuters.

This is all basically off the top of my head and there's plenty of other reasonable combos.

[triorph]

Minotaur fighter, gladiator, or berserker. Pick any good weapon and beat things over the head. Gods: Trog, Okawaru, Makhleb. Alternate races: gargoyle, Vine stalker, centaur, ogre, troll.

Also Hill Orc and possibly DD (although then specifically Trog/Makhleb). Not sure I'd really include VS/Ce/Og on this list either, because although they're powerful they're a bit tricky for new players.

Deep elf Conjurer, fire elementalist, earth elementalist, ice elementalist. I prefer conjurers since nothing resists pure conjurations, but whatever floats your boat is fine. You could even do an Air elementalist, but I don't like them. Gods: Vehemut, Sif Muna, Ashenzari. Other races: draconians, naga, demonspawn, humans, vine stalker, spriggan.

Gargoyle for EE/FE, HO for FE. Not really sure of Na/VS on this list. I'm not sure if the lists are indicative of any order, but I'd personally rank Ash higher than Sif for one of these builds too.