Trapped in the Temple

[stillcen]

Greetings i am quite new to Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup. I have played Moria (25 years ago) so know about rouge likes. My first try, a High Elf Transumter, Lived to be a level 10 corpse. The next three lived almost as long.

Currently a human level 8 Warper.

the general problem; I seemed to be out classed by the mosters i am facing.


I was on dungeon level 5 and meet a Named orc and i had to flee up a flight of stairs or die. Went down a differt stair case, and Meet a Named guy, cant remember his name but he is a long dead king now a mummy, he was REALLY stomping me around so a blinked away Barely and escaped down some stairs. Now on level 6 I explored a good bit and experimented with some un-named scolls and teleported into a room with 2 orc priest, 1 orc magic user, and 4 orc warriors. I fled down a shaft. Landed in a mess of animals; 1 elephant, 4 Yaks, 2-3 snakes, 1 some kind of gaint snail, 1 scorpian. I summoned snakes, used a wand of befriending on the elephant, picked off a few of the animals and started fleeing when the elephant figured out our friendship was not ment to last. On the way to the up stairs meet a Wyvern. a few more lucky blinks and summoned snakes and went back up the stairs. Refound the Orc army and killed them off one at a time. Went back up to level 5 being very wary of the two named haters on that level. I planed on using my wand of friendship (2 charges left) on the Orc to help me kill the old king mummy when i found Duressa. Went two whole rounds with her, down 1/2 my hitpoints and her brother shows up. FLEE!!! down the stairs to the E Temple. Heal up, buff up, go up and get stomped in two rounds. Flee down, tried it three times and not even close to any success.


short term question- How in the sandpatch am i going to get out of this? Duressa is at the top of the stairs and her Bro is a few steps away. I used up most of my magic items in the above pharagraph escapade/adventure/flee fest. spell wise i got Blink, Evaporate, Fulmanate, Shroud of G., and Sticks to snakes. My only remaining magic items are a wand of fire, and a wand of friendship with 1 charge left. Duressa has already shown herself resistant to the wand of friendship (i put that as cleanly as i could)


Long term question- In Moria if i was getting out classed i could go up a few dungeon levels, Buff up a few XP levels and try again. In Stone Soup, the levels i have cleared dont have enough food on them to sustain life and not enough beasties to go up a level. So...the difficulty seems to go up faster than my ability to hang with them. Hence my playing a human without the EXP penalties, but still....dang.



any sagely advice?


enjoy

stilcen

[Davion Fuxa]

It would help if you told us a bit about your character, but judging from what you have described your best bet would be to just get out of the Temple, Run or Blink away and get to another level in the Main Dungeon away from Duvessa and Dowan.

If you survive them and get to another level without them in tow, be sure to do a Character Dump (# key) and then come here with your character file and you might get some more information on what you might be able to do.

[Zicher]

Got some teleportation scrolls? Read one while still in the Temple, and go upstairs just before the teleport kicks in (there's a ~3 turn delay, so going up two turns after reading should be just right). If done right, the teleport will kick in right as you enter the floor above, and hopefully send you somewhere safe.
And yes, posting the dump would help to improve the advice in general. You might have missed something in your inventory that you could use at this moment, for example.

[stillcen]

I used up most of my goodies (including my one teleport scroll) surving up to this point. What i do have is

one potion of speed
one potion of slow
two potions of confusion
two potions of degredation
one potion of heal
wand of dig
wand of enslavement (1charge)
wand of fire
sling bullets of cold
9 darts of dispersal

my current plan is to cast shroud of G., Drink potion of speed, step up stairs (get hit and blasted), blink (and hope to get lucky); and once again FLEE.

But i am quickly running out of tricks/mojo/magic items. I have been fleeing pretty non stop since i tried to take on level 5,




Build wise
3 levels Fighting
3 levels Polearms
2 L's sling
2 L's throw
3 L's armor
3 L's dodging
2 L's steath
1 stabing
2 doors and traps
2 spellcasting
4 translocation
and ones in 5 other magic areas

I have been going for a fighter that suplements with magic.

here's hoping

stillcen

[Zicher]

my current plan is to cast shroud of G., Drink potion of speed, step up stairs (get hit and blasted), blink (and hope to get lucky); and once again FLEE.

That's about the best plan available - go for it. Take the nearest upstairs, heal up there and then descend through a _different_ staircase, so you do not wind up next to D&D, should they follow you. Then, leave the D&D floor ASAP.

Btw. I didn't play Warpers too much, but from your skillset it seems that, IMHO, you're spreading your skills way too wide.

[varsovie]

If you can reliably cast evaporate, throw them your potion of confusion (or degeneration) and then kill them. (since this spell has been removed in the last version, get some fun of it now)

Stick to snake ould help you in that situation, find some ammo or take 1-2 club asap.

[Psieye]

the difficulty seems to go up faster than my ability to hang with them. Hence my playing a human without the EXP penalties

You have a critical misunderstanding that is hampering you: after around XL4, your XL is less relevant compared to your skill levels. Humans are quick to get XL but slow to get skills with their aptitude 0's. Looking at your list of skills, this character is as good as dead in my eyes as he fell too far behind in the "power level race". He will struggle to fight even ordinary monsters soon if he survives this current crisis.

Branching out to be a fighter/mage is perfectly acceptable but only if you keep up with the "power level race". That typically means you stick to being a fighter or a mage until you've cleared Lair, which is about when you get leeway to start branching out. "Skill whatever you want" is a luxury that occurs in the lategame, around the time you've cleared Vaults.

[KoboldLord]

As a warper, why is your best weapon skill still at level 3? Your starting spellbook is good for running away, but sooner or later you're probably going to have to actually kill something, and that means you need a skill to kill things with. Literally every single other thing you spent xp on is going to be less valuable than attacking slightly faster and more accurately with your weapon. Turn all that other stuff off until you've got your killing things skills in better shape.

You can probably recover by burning through your wand and cheesing Evaporate at non-immune monsters, but you absolutely cannot afford to keep feeding critical early-game xp into eight to twelve more skills than you can possibly support.

[stillcen]

What i have learned

dont be to attached to this character, he is looking very mortal.


Don't spread my skills out so much.



Question of a Spoilie nature; About how long does one have to leave a level fallow, for that level to regenerate enough critters on it to suppport life/eating?


Stillcen

[BlackSheep]

Crawl doesn't really work that way. Once you've cleared a level, it will stay nearly barren for the rest of the game. (Barring hungerless characters spending thousands of turns waiting around on a floor, and even then you'll see more and more out-of-depth creatures rather than the original population returning.)

Having 3 staircases up and 3 down on every floor helps to avoid needing to completely abandon a floor just because of one or two very dangerous enemies. I try to flee upward whenever possible. (It's always a better idea to run to places you've been instead of into unexplored territory.) If I have to flee downward from a unique or a strong player ghost, I generally try to come back up elsewhere and continue to explore as soon as possible.

[Psieye]

About how long does one have to leave a level fallow, for that level to regenerate enough critters on it to suppport life/eating?

As BlackSheep said: crawl will KILL YOU for thinking like that, either by starving you or by throwing impossibly hard things at you until you get the message. Also, time 'freezes' if you move too many floors away from one floor.

[stillcen]

[/quote]
As BlackSheep said: crawl will KILL YOU for thinking like that, either by starving you or by throwing impossibly hard things at you until you get the message. Also, time 'freezes' if you move too many floors away from one floor.[/quote]



So there is a set gradient of difficulty, and keep up or DIE. (insert manical laughter)


I went with escape plan, Lucky for me Dowane was just on the edge of vision, so i ran away just fine from him, He did cast haste on his highly unfriendly sister though, so she kept up bapping me every so often till i got to the stairs. I made a bit of a stand, summond snakes, tossed a couple of potions and had her down to 3/5th of her HP's when i had to bail. With 4 uniques on level 5, i might just have to come back, if i live long enough to buff up enough.


having played my share of role playing games; it seems pole arms should have "reach". Is there a way to melee monsters 2 squares away with my spear?



thanks
stillcen

[pikkle]

having played my share of role playing games; it seems pole arms should have "reach". Is there a way to melee monsters 2 squares away with my spear?

Press 'v' to select a further square to attack.

[crate]

Or use autofight (tab by default), which will reach automatically if the nearest enemy is 2 spaces away.

[Davion Fuxa]

Congratulations on not dying, and don't feel bad that you have to skip level 5. There is nothing wrong with going ahead into the dungeon and coming back to deal with particular tough monsters on a level. However, if you don't feel like getting stronger first, there are certain strategies that can work well against certain Unique monsters. Here's a couple ideas for the ones you're facing:

Menkaure - the named Mummy can be a bit of a hassle due to his ability to Haste himself up while using Torment and Pain on you. He does however die horribly if you use even a simple fire attack on him - wands of flame will take chunks of health out of him while wands of fire will decimate him. Holy Wrath weaponry will inflict extra damage on him as well if you want to try that. Note that upon his death, one of your items will be cursed and begin sticking to you - but that shouldn't be too much of a problem really since you aren't using a Mace & Flail/Stave class weapon.

For the Named Orc, I'm pretty sure you must have run into Blork the Orc as he likes to tromp around that early in the Dungeon. Much like Orc Wizards he's fairly weak in Melee, though you'll want to kill him quickly before he casts too many spells on you. He has more health then an Orc Mage so he has more opportunity to be a hassle. See Invisible can help against Invisibility and Slay Orc brand weaponry will decimate him, but they aren't totally necessary.

Duvessa and Dowan are a powerful pair to combat together, and they get really difficult when one of the pair dies. However, being a Warper you have two of the best spells for handling them. A successful cast of 'Teleport Other' on either of them will separate them, allowing you to try just handling one of them - though your Translocations might be a tad too low. 'Portal Projectile' will allow you the ability to always hit either of them while you see them on your screen - even if something is in the way. Outside of spell use, Wands can work quite effectively for handling these two - Wand of Enslavement on one means you can get one of them to help you kill the other, or kill each other; Bolt type Wands or Wands of Fireball can be used to damage both of them at the same time.

Of course, just keep in mind that once one of the pair dies, the other will get a lot tougher - Duvessa will Berserk which means she'll move faster, hit harder, and hit more often; and Dowan will get Hasted and use more damaging spells. Teleport Other tends to separate them, so once you kill the other you can just nonchalantly walk off the level to heal up and find the other. If you are killing them together though then either have some sort of plan in mind to finish off the other quickly, or get away.

If you seriously want to do well with this character, I again mention posting a character dump for us to read on to give further advice.

[stillcen]

I was somewhat hesitent to post this as it is longinsh, but yeah i am serious about wanting to do well, and this rudy game hides its mechanics (yes i know that is part of the charm) not allowing me to be a total rules lawyer.


In a serious note; i tried the "v" with my spear wielded and got "this item can not be evoked". Tried a "V" and got a list of things i could chose to evoke. BTW am an playing verion 0.9.1

On a self depracating note: you might notice that i have 3 spell slots open. I was saving up to learn the spell "controlled teleport". When i was reading this character dump i noticed that the spell is "control teleport". (insert mutterings) plan on memorizing "passage of G."

  Code:

Marko the Skirmisher (Human Warper)                                Turns: 14666, Time: 06:12:09

HP  72/72        AC  7     Str 16      XL: 10   Next:  6%
MP  15/15        EV 12     Int 13      God: Vehumet [**....]
Gold 265         SH  0     Dex 12      Spells:  5 memorised,  4 levels left

Res.Fire  : . . .   See Invis. : .    a - +3,+1 spear
Res.Cold  : . . .   Warding    : . .  Y - +0 elf leather armour
Life Prot.: . . .   Conserve   : .    (no shield)
Res.Acid. : . . .   Res.Corr.  : .    l - +0 dwarf winged helmet
Res.Poison: .       Clarity    : .    (no cloak)
Res.Elec. : .       Spirit.Shd : .    (no gloves)
Sust.Abil.: . .     Stasis     : .    h - +0 pair of elf boots
Res.Mut.  : .       Ctrl.Telep.: .    n - amulet of the gourmand
Res.Rott. : .       Levitation : .    I - +2 ring of protection
Gourmand  : +       Ctrl.Flight: .    o - ring of protection from magic

@: quite resistant to hostile enchantments, fairly stealthy
A: no striking features
a: Renounce Religion


You are on level 9 of the Dungeon.
You worship Vehumet.
Vehumet is most pleased with you.
You are very full.

You have visited 2 branches of the dungeon, and seen 10 of its levels.

You have collected 402 gold pieces.
You have spent 187 gold pieces at shops.

Inventory:

Hand weapons
 a - a +3,+1 spear (weapon)
 b - a +2,+1 bow of evasion {!d}
 q - an uncursed spear
 y - a +0,+0 sling
 B - a bow
 E - an elven dagger
 F - a glowing spear
 N - an uncursed elven dagger
 R - an orcish dagger
 T - a spear
 W - a runed long sword
Missiles
 d - 27 runed darts
 e - 21 +1 darts
 m - 39 sling bullets of frost
 r - 95 stones
 t - 17 arrows of frost
 K - 31 darts (quivered)
 M - 84 +0 arrows
 S - 43 runed arrows
 V - 12 poisoned needles
 X - 4 curare-tipped needles
Armour
 h - a +0 pair of elven boots (worn)
 l - a +0 dwarven winged helmet (worn)
 Y - a +0 elven leather armour (worn)
Magical devices
 O - a wand of enslavement (0)
 P - a wand of flame (4)
 U - a wand of digging {zapped: 2}
Comestibles
 g - a bread ration {!*}
 j - 2 honeycombs {!*}
 w - 5 meat rations {!*}
 x - a pear
Scrolls
 k - 2 scrolls labeled PSONTOEDGH DUKA {tried, NOchanceON}
 p - a scroll of teleportation
 u - 2 scrolls labeled FOULAM SI FEETYU {tried, NochaceON}
 H - a scroll labeled OSHEYV HEPYAXYJ {tried on wand of digging}
Jewellery
 n - an amulet of the gourmand (around neck)
 o - a ring of protection from magic (left hand)
 v - an amulet of the gourmand
 I - a +2 ring of protection (right hand)
 Z - a golden ring
Potions
 f - a potion of water
 i - 3 potions of healing
 s - 2 potions of heal wounds
 z - 7 potions of confusion
 A - 2 bubbling inky potions
 D - a potion of restore abilities
 G - 2 potions of degeneration
 J - 5 potions of poison
 L - a potion of magic
 Q - a potion of slowing
Books
 c - a book of Spatial Translocations   
   
   Spells                             Type                      Level
   Apportation                        Translocation                1
   Portal Projectile                  Translocation                2
   *Blink                             Translocation                2
   *Shroud of Golubria                Charms/Translocation         2
   Teleport Other                     Translocation                3
   Passage of Golubria                Translocation                4
   Control Teleport                   Charms/Translocation         4
 C - a book of Changes   
   
   Spells                             Type                      Level
   *Fulsome Distillation              Transmutation/Necromancy     1
   *Sticks to Snakes                  Transmutation                2
   *Evaporate                         Fire/Transmutation           2
   Spider Form                        Transmutation/Poison         3
   Ice Form                           Ice/Transmutation            4
   Blade Hands                        Transmutation                5


   Skills:
 + Level 6 Fighting
 - Level 4 Polearms
 - Level 2 Slings
 + Level 4 Bows
 - Level 2 Throwing
 - Level 3 Armour
 + Level 3 Dodging
 - Level 2 Stealth
 - Level 2 Stabbing
 - Level 2 Traps & Doors
 + Level 2 Spellcasting
 - Level 2 Charms
 - Level 1 Necromancy
 + Level 5 Translocations
 - Level 1 Transmutations
 - Level 1 Fire Magic
 - Level 1 Evocations


You have 4 spell levels left.
You know the following spells:

 Your Spells              Type           Power        Success   Level  Hunger
a - Blink                 Tloc           N/A          Great       2    Choko
b - Shroud of Golubria    Chrm/Tloc      ###.......   Great       2    Choko
c - Evaporate             Fire/Trmt      #.........   Good        2    Choko
d - Fulsome Distillation  Trmt/Necr      N/A          Very Good   1    Strawberry
e - Sticks to Snakes      Trmt           #.........   Good        2    Choko


Dungeon Overview and Level Annotations

Branches:
Dungeon (9/27)             Temple (1/1) D:5             Orc (0/4) D:6
   Lair (0/8) D:9         

Altars:
Ashenzari
Elyvilon
Fedhas
Kikubaaqudgha
Makhleb
Nemelex Xobeh
Okawaru
Sif Muna
The Shining One
Trog
Vehumet
Xom
Yredelemnul
Zin

Shops:
D:6: /

Message History

Eat a chunk of snake flesh? (ye/n/q/i?)
This raw flesh tastes great.
You continue eating.
You finish eating.
You see here a rotting rat corpse.
You extract a potion of water from the corpse.
f - a potion of water
There is an open door here.
There is a stone staircase leading down here.
You climb downwards.
There is a stone staircase leading up here.
Welcome back, Marko the Human Warper.
Vehumet says: Let it end in hellfire!
Press ? for a list of commands and other information.
That item cannot be evoked!
You feel like more of a target.
a - a +3,+1 spear (weapon)
That item cannot be evoked!
Evoke which item? (* to show all) (? for menu, Esc to quit)
Okay, then.

Vanquished Creatures
  A hill giant (D:7)
  An ice beast (D:8)
  2 ogres
  2 orc warriors
  A sky beast (D:6)
  2 phantoms
  4 centaurs
  2 wights (D:6)
  A goliath beetle (D:7)
  3 imps
  A big kobold skeleton (D:6)
  6 orc priests
  2 hounds
  2 orc wizards
  A scorpion (D:6)
  4 worker ants
  An iguana (D:3)
  A big fish zombie (D:4)
  2 jellies
  Ijyb (D:3)
  6 gnolls
  18 snakes
  An iguana skeleton (D:5)
  A giant mite (D:8)
  A worm (D:6)
  2 bat zombies (D:4)
  A giant eyeball (D:6)
  6 giant geckos
  19 orcs
  2 giant cockroaches
  18 hobgoblins
  4 jackals
  5 quokkas
  4 small snakes
  21 bats
  5 giant newts
  A giant spore (D:7)
  10 goblins
  9 kobolds
  A kobold skeleton (D:6)
  An orc skeleton (D:7)
  A quokka skeleton (D:4)
  16 rats
  2 rat zombies (D:4)
  2 ballistomycetes (D:7)
  3 toadstools
200 creatures vanquished.

Vanquished Creatures (collateral kills)
  2 ogres (D:6)
  An agate snail (D:9)
  A wight (D:6)
  An orc priest (D:6)
  A scorpion (D:4)
  A gnoll (D:7)
  2 orcs
  A goblin (D:9)
  A quokka (D:6)
  A giant newt (D:5)
12 creatures vanquished.

Vanquished Creatures (others)
  A hound (D:8)
  A snake (D:7)
  A giant cockroach (D:4)
  2 jackals (D:2)
  A quokka (D:7)
  A rat (D:4)
  5 toadstools
12 creatures vanquished.

Grand Total: 224 creatures vanquished

Notes
Turn   | Place    | Note
--------------------------------------------------------------
     0 | D:1      | Marko, the Human Warper, began the quest for the Orb.
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 1. HP: 15/15 MP: 1/1
   339 | D:1      | Reached XP level 2. HP: 21/21 MP: 3/3
   343 | D:1      | Learned a level 2 spell: Blink
   347 | D:1      | Learned a level 2 spell: Shroud of Golubria
   969 | D:2      | Reached XP level 3. HP: 21/26 MP: 4/4
  1562 | D:2      | Found a glowing silver altar of Zin.
  1587 | D:2      | Found a bloodstained altar of Trog.
  1864 | D:3      | Reached XP level 4. HP: 26/33 MP: 6/6
  1864 | D:3      | Reached XP level 5. HP: 29/38 MP: 7/7
  1870 | D:3      | Found a glowing golden altar of the Shining One.
  2094 | D:3      | Reached skill level 1 in Slings
  2165 | D:3      | Noticed Ijyb
  2191 | D:3      | Defeated Ijyb
  2657 | D:4      | Learned a level 2 spell: Evaporate
  2660 | D:4      | Learned a level 1 spell: Fulsome Distillation
  2703 | D:5      | Entered Level 5 of the Dungeon
  2703 | D:5      | Noticed Blork the orc
  2746 | D:4      | Reached XP level 6. HP: 30/45 MP: 9/9
  2756 | D:4      | Reached skill level 1 in Stabbing
  3078 | D:4      | Reached skill level 1 in Traps & Doors
  3685 | D:4      | Found a radiant altar of Vehumet.
  3721 | D:4      | Reached XP level 7. HP: 27/50 MP: 8/10
  3802 | D:4      | Became a worshipper of Vehumet
  3867 | D:4      | Learned a level 2 spell: Sticks to Snakes
  3889 | D:4      | Reached skill level 1 in Stealth
  4708 | D:4      | Found an ancient bone altar of Kikubaaqudgha.
  4884 | D:5      | Noticed Menkaure
  6137 | D:5      | Reached skill level 1 in Transmutations
  6137 | D:5      | Reached skill level 1 in Fire Magic
  6639 | D:5      | dungeon 5 look out
  6639 | D:5      | ?
  7416 | D:6      | Reached skill level 1 in Necromancy
  7416 | D:6      | Reached XP level 8. HP: 41/57 MP: 12/12
  7524 | D:6      | Found Sesm's Magical Wand Boutique.
  7538 | D:6      | Acquired Vehumet's first power
  7558 | D:6      | Bought a wand of enslavement (6) for 88 gold pieces
  7558 | D:6      | Bought a wand of flame (16) for 99 gold pieces
  7600 | D:6      | Found a staircase to the Orcish Mines.
  7617 | D:6      | You fall through a shaft!
  7617 | D:9      | Found a staircase to the Lair.
  7617 | D:9      | Noticed an agate snail
  7666 | D:9      | Defeated an agate snail
  7666 | D:9      | Reached skill level 1 in Charms
  7666 | D:9      | Reached skill level 4 in Translocations
  8776 | D:5      | Found a staircase to the Ecumenical Temple.
  8801 | Temple   | Entered the Ecumenical Temple
  8856 | D:5      | Noticed Duvessa
  8863 | Temple   | Learned a level 2 spell: Shroud of Golubria
  8865 | D:5      | Noticed Dowan
  9842 | D:7      | Reached skill level 1 in Evocations
 10882 | D:6      | Reached skill level 1 in Bows
 11037 | D:6      | Reached XP level 9. HP: 15/63 MP: 7/13
 11145 | D:6      | Reached skill level 5 in Fighting
 11969 | D:7      | Noticed a hill giant
 12867 | D:7      | Defeated a hill giant
 12867 | D:7      | Acquired Vehumet's second power
 12925 | D:7      | Reached skill level 6 in Fighting
 12971 | D:7      | Found a basalt altar of Yredelemnul.
 13358 | D:8      | Reached skill level 5 in Translocations
 13462 | D:8      | Reached XP level 10. HP: 19/72 MP: 11/15
 13846 | D:8      | Found a burning altar of Makhleb.


enjoy
stillcen-

[nordetsa]

You should code your character files (there should be a code tap when you write).

Also, I think spear reaching ability was introduced in 0.10.

[varsovie]

Yeah, any reason why your not playing the latest release?

Also, why do you have two amulet of gourmand and a lot of dagger (even a sword)? Also drop B and your darts.

Identify your scrolls or stash them, no reason to have them around (although I would try k and u on my wand of enslavement).

Why Vehumet? You seems to go warper/fighter and you have no conjurations nor summoning.

Do you have any more useful wands in that shop?

Skills will be hard to fix, gl for the rest of your game.

[Psieye]

So there is a set gradient of difficulty, and keep up or DIE.

This is why it's recommended to learn the game with a powerful race/class setup, then branch over to other setups. For reference, humans are not one of the easiest races.

this rudy game hides its mechanics

Technically, it's an open-source game so you could (in principle) go look up the rules in the code. The knowledge bots will tell you most of the important rules anyway if you know what to search for.

[Davion Fuxa]

I'll note a few things then:

God wise - Vehumet only helps you with spells that cause Destruction and Translocations are not really being a school with a whole lot of Destruction in. He's not a bad God to worship but to get any use out of him you will have to eventually Branch out into Conjurations or Summoning spells.

Inventory wise - You have Slings, Bows, and Throwing Weapons Galore! Thing is though is that you don't need it all. Since your training in Bows, perhaps dump the Sling and Sling Bullets, Darts, Spears, and Daggers - maybe keep the Needles but I'd say eventually drop those too.

Skill wise - You might want to turn off a few skills so you can focus your experience in one or two skills - like say only Bows should be getting trained atm. You really don't have a lot of decently trained skills or time to spare yet upping that many skills at once.

Spell wise - getting Control Teleport is fine and all, but your cast chance might be hurting since it is a Charm/Translocation spell. You may want to consider getting Portal Projectile since that can help you with your Bow quite a bit and give you Smite Targeting.

[njvack]

So there is a set gradient of difficulty, and keep up or DIE. (insert manical laughter)

This, in a nutshell, comprises a large portion of game design.

In general, you need good tactics and strategy to survive in Crawl. Tactics keep you alive with your current character and current threats; strategy lets you develop your character to become more powerful as the threats get harder. Fail on tactics and you die now, fail on strategy and eventually your good tactics aren't enough to keep you alive later.

[stillcen]

as to why i am playing version 0.9.1, is that is the version that was loaded from my synaptic manager, and i had now idea that there was a more recent version out there.

i chose vehumet as he gifts cater to mages and killing is what he likes, my character seems to do that quite a bit (not as much as i would like though).

As to all the extra baggae i am lugging around, #1 theif protection. A have faced theives in this game and, I am operating uder the asumption that the steal random stuff. The more stuff i have the less likely they get something i really like. #2 i have run out of ammo before with my primary ranged weapon before so try to conserve that ammo, by using other ammo on lesser opponents. #3 the amulet of Gourmond(sp?) I had never got one before and was really really happy about the Much better food situation that having a backup seems nifty. #4 Looking for a safe place to stash stuff, the Ecumenical temple seemed ideal before a certain Brother and Sister camped on its door step.

Original plan; running away from bad situations is the compleatly neccessary to living long at all. Warpers seemed like a good choice for this.

Current Plan;
stay alive
put Lots!! of training into bows.
Use evaporate, blink, passage of G. sticks to snakes, to keep things out of melee range.
try to get some better summon spells as to have instant allies to distract foes wilst i use foes as a pin cushion.
if live long enough to get gifts of vehumet, switch god to, that other mage type god (sif muna?)


questions;

i have experimented some with throwing stones, and using a sling; with skill levels the same they seems to have equall effect. Is my sample to small?

While bashing on a slow bettle, Two friggin wights show up. whating to save my wand of fire i walk over to the stairs. On the stair i say wtf, i got an unknown potion. I inscribe potion with marker, and evaporate potion at both wights. flames consume both wights, oh so lucky. but the potion does to show as known. the next time i find a black bubbling potion will my inscription be there?


enjoy
stillcen

[Davion Fuxa]

As to all the extra baggae i am lugging around, #1 theif protection. A have faced theives in this game and, I am operating uder the asumption that the steal random stuff. The more stuff i have the less likely they get something i really like.

There is only one thief in the entire game, called Maurice. He isn't really something you need to protect against that you need to carry extra items for.

#2 i have run out of ammo before with my primary ranged weapon before so try to conserve that ammo, by using other ammo on lesser opponents.

That's a fine strategy, but you still have quite a tonne of arrows - even if you didn't you have quite a tonne of ammunition to throw and you don't need a whole slew of options that you currently have available - and there is always melee.

#3 the amulet of Gourmond(sp?) I had never got one before and was really really happy about the Much better food situation that having a backup seems nifty.

You'll either going to wear the Amulet of Gourmand because you want its effects - and you need to keep wearing it to get its effects since its effects don't come into effect until some time passes after you wear it (ie, when you swap it in from another Amulet you can't just eat some nauseating food right away); or you'll ditch it because your Food Situation is fine and you have reached a point in the game where swapping in another Amulet is becoming commonplace and you aren't benefiting a muchfrom it. Regardless, that Amulet of Gourmand is going to be sticking in your inventory until you no longer need it, and you'll never need to stash a second one.

#4 Looking for a safe place to stash stuff, the Ecumenical temple seemed ideal before a certain Brother and Sister camped on its door step.

Generally the Temple is a safe place, but if it isn't (for you it currently isn't) you can try the second level of the Lair.

if live long enough to get gifts of vehumet, switch god to, that other mage type god (sif muna?)

Erm, Vehumet 'Does' give gifts in Conjuration of Summoning spell books, but if that was what you were after then you should have gone with Sif Muna in the first place - she gifts like Spellbooks like mad. I wouldn't bother switching to Sif Muna if that was your plan - Vehumet may not help the 'less destructive' spells but you gain mana whenever you kill stuff and when you use destructive spells you'll benefit a lot more with Vehumet.

i have experimented some with throwing stones, and using a sling; with skill levels the same they seems to have equall effect. Is my sample to small?

Slings fire slower then if you throw stones at zero skill, unless you train up the skill for Slings somewhat you are only getting a damage increase - but I wouldn't bother training either if you are training Bows, and when you get to the Lair you should probably ditch the stones and sling altogether and rely just on your Bow.

[KoboldLord]

i chose vehumet as he gifts cater to mages and killing is what he likes, my character seems to do that quite a bit (not as much as i would like though)… if live long enough to get gifts of vehumet, switch god to, that other mage type god (sif muna?)

If you are taking a gifting deity with the intent of switching as soon as you get a specific gift or set of gifts, I feel reasonably confident in asserting that you are wildly overestimating the value of divine gifts. They are generally a nice bonus that you get from a deity that you would be useful anyway, and not the main attraction. In Vehumet's case, you receive a number of passive abilities that are extremely valuable for a conjurations-focused spellcaster, like extra range, a discount on mp costs for combat spells, fast mp recovery, and a hefty bonus to spell success. Your current character is unfortunately making use of absolutely none of these things, and by the time you get those first books you will probably already be a couple levels into Lair. If you try to use these gifted spells, then, you will be using them on hydrae and death yaks with crippled levels of conjurations and elemental magic, since you haven't trained those skills at all up until that point.

Currently, Vehumet is basically the same for you as being atheist, and retraining from a melee hybrid with translocations and transmutations over to a focused conjuror will cost more xp than you can reasonably survive to accumulate, at least in the short and medium term. Even if you managed, you would never catch up to what you would be if you had started with a conjurations-focused build in the first place.

As to all the extra baggae i am lugging around, #1 theif protection. A have faced theives in this game and, I am operating uder the asumption that the steal random stuff.

The only true thief in the game is Maurice, a single unique. He doesn't have the special AI used by nymphs in Nethack, however, so he never really amounts to that level of game-ending threat like a D4 nymph, or heaven forbid an invisible nymph, would be. If he takes your stuff, you just hit him until he dies and take it back.

There are a few other monsters, like harpies, that have a theft-flavored attack, but in truth they are just destroying your inventory. Inventory destruction in Crawl is unbounded and the random chance is applies separately to every valid item in your inventory. If you have 50 items of food in your inventory, that harpy will just take and destroy half of them in a single hit, and then get half of what's left in the next single hit. Or whatever the odds actually are.

#3 the amulet of Gourmond(sp?) I had never got one before and was really really happy about the Much better food situation that having a backup seems nifty.

It is virtually impossible to accidentally lose a non-destructible item like that in Crawl, and you can only wear one on your neck at a time.

[Psieye]

As to all the extra baggae i am lugging around, #1 theif protection. A have faced theives in this game and, I am operating uder the asumption that the steal random stuff. The more stuff i have the less likely they get something i really like.

If by "thief" you mean "humanoid monsters are picking up my loot and using them against me" or "jellies might eat my loot I leave on the floor" then I say: "what of it?"

I mean ok, it's one thing to carry around your consumables so they don't get 'wasted' by monsters using them but you are 'protecting' so much junk weapons around that wouldn't make any difference. Paranoia against the rare jelly spawn eating your books if you leave them on the floor is slightly understandable but still, it's extremely rare.

Original plan; running away from bad situations is the compleatly neccessary to living long at all. Warpers seemed like a good choice for this.

Neutralising threats is the most important requirement to staying alive for long. Running away is important, yes but if you can't efficiently neutralise threats then you are not going to get far. A Wz is more balanced than a Wr in that the essential Blink spell is there alongside a very versatile starting toolkit to deal with every threat in the earlygame.

if live long enough to get gifts of vehumet, switch god to, that other mage type god (sif muna?)

This is a textbook example of "how to commit suicide with divine assistance". You do not switch gods until you are strong enough to cope with the retaliation. In a 3-rune game, you don't need to switch at all. God switching is for 5+ rune games and typically performed way in the lategame.

[stillcen]

Well the predicted end has happened.
Died on dungeon level 13 at the hands/claws/fangs/? of an Unseen Horror, which as the name implies, i did not see. i was battleing a water moccosin, when mr. invisable hit me three time in one round. I blinked took 2 steps toward the strairs and it hit me again. I got to XP level 13 with 13 ranks in bows.

I did run out of arrows, yaks and elephants take Alot of arrows to put down.


Thanks for all the advice and info, Hopefully my next encarnation can get further.

enjoy

stillcen

[varsovie]

If you wanna try another hybrid like that, I would suggest Okawaru for you, because it's a god that requires very little management, he gives some good items (and some bad) but also a lot of projectiles, and he does have two abilities that are very strong early on and if you plan on blinking, + finesse, you don't need the mvt speed boost from haste anyway.

But I would suggest you to try a more easier built (warper is quite hard because they lack any reliable way of killing foo) to learn and familiarize yourself with the game.

[SchwaWarrior]

Welcome to Crawl, and sorry your Warper met an end to one of those things. @_@ As I typically play squishy mages, I can really relate. Unseen Horrors are horrible.

If you want to try out Vehumet, play a High Elf Wizard or a Conjurer! High Elves are fantastic at becoming hybrids later on, though you have to be a little more careful of their slightly lower HP than, say, a Hill Orc (another great hybrid race). Also, when you're doing a hybrid character, keep in mind that he never actually becomes a "hybrid" until waaaay later, when he actually physically can. When I play my usual High Elf Conjurer (abbreviated as "HECj" by the way), she only begins with 7 STR and there's no way I'm gonna get far in melee-ing things, right? But later on, thanks to leveling up plus worn items, when I have 20+ STR and 30+ INT, I can slash and blast away with ease. Getting there is the trick, and there's no single path to do it, I have to use whatever the game gives me to create something out of nothing. That's why Crawl is such a genius game, it bends my mind in ways no other game does.

This isn't me advertizing my ego or anything, but, you notice in my signature I have two URL links to threads I posted? Those are both posts telling the full story of a victory I achieved with a High Elf Conjurer, from start to finish. If you don't hate long reads, consider reading up on them to get an idea and inspiration of how a full fledged, successful Crawl game would go! It's not mandatory to post such long victory posts, so not everyone does, but the ones that do are amazing reads. Psieye's recent High Elf Wizard of Zin is one of my favorites, as well as many other threads of his that you're welcome to search through on your own. ^^ There's also this guy on the wiki with his Deep Elf Ice Elementalist of Vehumet, one of the first and most inspiring Crawl stories I have ever read-- it's probably what got me addicted to this game so much, being so inspired by this one. (Some guy months and months ago wrote out an amazing Ghoul Monk of Nemelex Xobeh that I really wanted to find, but couldn't. Ah well.)

The best way to learn is to do, but another good way is to watch others. Spend some time walking among us! You won't regret it, friend.

[stillcen]

I updated to the latest version of Soup. leter "v" now works to reach attack pole arms.

question does one get credit for the skill points after the decimal? My high elf fire elementalist (HEFE?) has 1.3 in mutations, is the .3 wasted or does it count?



Summon Butterflies, Does this work kind-a-like cloud cover?

Lost a high elf air elementalist level 7 to starvation, nothing edible was leaving a corpse. When near starving tried to ear an orc corpse, got sick and ....

this game is quite addictive

enjoy, and thanks

stillcen

[varsovie]

question does one get credit for the skill points after the decimal? My high elf fire elementalist (HEFE?) has 1.3 in mutations, is the .3 wasted or does it count?
Yes it counts

Summon Butterflies, Does this work kind-a-like cloud cover?
No, doesn't block LOS (so orc priest can still smites you), but do block foo.

Lost a high elf air elementalist level 7 to starvation, nothing edible was leaving a corpse. When near starving tried to ear an orc corpse, got sick and ....
Don't spam high level spell since they cost a lot of hunger, you can train spellcasting to reduce the hunger cost.

this game is quite addictive
yes

[Psieye]

Lost a high elf air elementalist level 7 to starvation, nothing edible was leaving a corpse. When near starving tried to ear an orc corpse, got sick and ....

Quaff a curing potion to remove the nausea/sickness then eat again. Or eat some permafood: don't hoard it up, you'll get more than you can eat so long as you're not extravagantly wasteful.

[Lasty]

If you eat brown chunks when you're first at Hungry, nausea will wear off before you get past Very Hungry unless you're doing a lot of hunger-inducing spellcasting. If you aren't sure which spells use hunger, press ! from the list of your spells to see the amount of hunger casting them will cause. Improving INT and Spellcasting skill will both reduce spell hunger.

[stillcen]

Ok ok, i will bite. I thought if i read it enough i would get the meaning, but alas no. What in the sandpatch is a "foo"?

Why did the game give me a warning before i wielded a "Vamperic" spear? i said no untill i get further info.

My High Elf Fire Elementalist appears to be doing spleandedly. Focusing and Blasting.



enjoy
stillcen

[Davion Fuxa]

Ok ok, i will bite. I thought if i read it enough i would get the meaning, but alas no. What in the sandpatch is a "foo"?

Why did the game give me a warning before i wielded a "Vamperic" spear? i said no untill i get further info.

My High Elf Fire Elementalist appears to be doing spleandedly. Focusing and Blasting.



enjoy
stillcen

Vamperic Weaponry takes a heavy chunk out of your satiation when you wield them, meaning you can't equip them unless you eat something first. If you are trying to equip one then try eating to bring yourself to a higher satiation - though duly consider if you plan to ever take off your Vamperic Weapon before you equip it, like if you plan to use Bows on your High Elf or make use of Decks of Cards or what not.

[BlackSheep]

Ok ok, i will bite. I thought if i read it enough i would get the meaning, but alas no. What in the sandpatch is a "foo"?

Foo is a placeholder:
Summon foo - an abitrary summon spell
Potion of gain foo - a potion of gain strength, dexterity or intelligence.

What varsovie meant, I have no idea...

Summon Butterflies will not block line of sight, but will block line of effect. Creatures can't get to you until the get through the butterflies, and they're hard to hit. Ranged attacks can miss the butterflies and hit you, but spells and effects that don't deal damage, like Confuse or Polymorph Other, can't reach you through them.

[varsovie]

Well, it block any beams (arrows, magic missile, but not 100%, those butterflies dodge too) some other spell (neqoxec's mutation, orb of destruction) and most important enemies (they can't get in melee range, easy escape through corridor if they have to kill 27 butterflies).

They do loose their charm later with hellfire/torment though.

[Davion Fuxa]

To add on to BlackSheeps post:

You Summon Butterflies and place a 8 butterflies in all the squares around you - total enemies near you are: 1 Orc with a Bow, 1 Orc Mage with a Dagger, 1 Orc Priest with a Battleaxe, and Sigmund with a Scythe and Wand of Fire. Things that may happen as follows:

-Orc with Bow can fire arrows, potentially hitting Butterfly or missing Butterfly and passing through to you.
-Orc Mage with Dagger can waste attacks with Dagger on Butterflies, or attempt to Confuse or Slow Butterflies, or attempt to fire Throw Frost or Throw Flame or something and potentially hit Butteflies or miss them and hit you.
-Orc Priest with Battleaxe can waste attacks with Battleaxe on Butterflies, or hit you without fail using Smite.
-Sigmund with Scythe and Wand of Fire - He can use Bolt of Fire effect from Wand of Fire and hit you without fail, or he can waste an attempt to hit you with Confuse on the Butterflies. In the case of his Scythe he has an advantage of being able to reach over your Butterflies and hit you if he's within two tile of you - at least I never seen them fail to reach past friendly summons in an attempt to hit you (someone should verify if that's possible); if he's 3 tiles away from you with a Butterfly next to him though, he'll may waste a turn attacking the Butterfly with the Scythe.

[Psieye]

Ok ok, i will bite. I thought if i read it enough i would get the meaning, but alas no. What in the sandpatch is a "foo"?

Foo is a placeholder

It's programmer terminology. The linguistic origin of "foo" and the corresponding "bar" is unknown to me, but programmers will use that word like mathematicians will use "X": in the context of "you do This to X", "your function, which does X for a given input".

[rebthor]

Ok ok, i will bite. I thought if i read it enough i would get the meaning, but alas no. What in the sandpatch is a "foo"?

Foo is a placeholder

It's programmer terminology. The linguistic origin of "foo" and the corresponding "bar" is unknown to me, but programmers will use that word like mathematicians will use "X": in the context of "you do This to X", "your function, which does X for a given input".

The etymology of it from IETF seems reasonable to me.

[Sinister Stairs]

#4 Looking for a safe place to stash stuff, the Ecumenical temple seemed ideal before a certain Brother and Sister camped on its door step.

Generally the Temple is a safe place, but if it isn't (for you it currently isn't) you can try the second level of the Lair.

What makes Lair 2 safer than, say, Lair 1 or Lair 3?

[cerebovssquire]

Monsters can spawn on the stairs to Lair:1. In particular, sentient monsters will steal your stuff and jellies will eat it. The probability of this is incredibly low so it probably won't happen anyway, so don't worry about it. There's just no good reason not to go to Lair:2. Lair:3 isn't any safer or less safe than Lair:2, it's further away from the dungeon though.

[Psieye]

Monsters can spawn on the stairs to Lair:1. In particular, sentient monsters will steal your stuff and jellies will eat it. The probability of this is incredibly low so it probably won't happen anyway, so don't worry about it.

In hundreds of games I have never seen (assuming Jiyva isn't worshipped) a jelly in Lair:1... except this one time. That was in my earlier days when I had a stash on Lair:1. That "OH SHIT" feeling as I read 'you hear a distant slurping noise' on my stash floor... It was an exciting scramble to wandspam that jelly to death.

[Davion Fuxa]

Monsters can spawn on the stairs to Lair:1. In particular, sentient monsters will steal your stuff and jellies will eat it. The probability of this is incredibly low so it probably won't happen anyway, so don't worry about it. There's just no good reason not to go to Lair:2. Lair:3 isn't any safer or less safe than Lair:2, it's further away from the dungeon though.

I'll add to this by saying: Be sure to clear the levels first before placing your stash - Unique's can naturally spawn in the Lair, and Mini-vaults may also spawn sentient monsters or Jellies.

To also add some ideas btw on making stashes as well, you could make Stashes in other places - with a general low risk of stuff you don't want to have walking over your stash. Here's some general ideas to think on:

-When going to Orcish Mines from the entrance, did you com across a small enclosed area - Orcs can still spawn on the staircase to grab your stuff but if are in a small enclosed area you'll likely not have to look far for them from your stash and they die easily enough; When the Lair AND Temple weren't as feasible to access I temporarily used the Orcish Mines:1 area as it was about the size of a 15x15 area give or take
-Maybe you ran across a Makhleb Alter Vault or something similar which has an area only accessible by using Flight/Levitate to get over Lava and/or LRD/Shatter - My Felid Venom Mage found a Vault like this and I made the area my stash since most sentient monsters don't fly or levitate and I don't think Jellies can swim over Lava
-My Personally Favorite area for an End Game Stash - Having reached Dungeon:27, you'll be sure to find the entrance to the Realm of Zot. Just outside the gate I tend to put a stash which I can get easy access too from inside the Realm of Zot, and since it is usually in its own personal Mini-Vault it restricts access somewhat from Dungeon:27

[Psieye]

-My Personally Favorite area for an End Game Stash - Having reached Dungeon:27, you'll be sure to find the entrance to the Realm of Zot. Just outside the gate I tend to put a stash which I can get easy access too from inside the Realm of Zot, and since it is usually in its own personal Mini-Vault it restricts access somewhat from Dungeon:27

Vestibule of Hell. A portable stash that travels with you from D:21~D:27. It's the reason why I keep trying to clear the Vestibule as soon as I see a portal to Hell (after clearing D:21).

[crate]

My favourite area for a stash is the floor wherever I happen to be standing when I decide I want to drop an item.

[rebthor]

I like to go to corners when I drop stuff just so it's less likely to be eaten by a jelly or picked up by something that I would prefer not get it. Anything really dangerous to me (like x of distortion when I use y or holy weapon when I'm undead) gets dropped in lava or blue lava.