How to survive as a Deep Elf Conjuror?

[Link]

So, I've been playing crawl for a week or so now, and so far it's awesome. I've made several Deep Elf Conjurors, but keep dying at around level 8-9 on them, on floors 4-5 of the dungeon. Usually I just get swarmed by a few monsters, and that causes trouble. Does anyone have some good advice?

Right now, I just get Mephitic Cloud, and then use magic bolt to finish off enemies. I usually just use Sif Muna as a god, finally what skills should i focus on, and disable which ones, also is better to use a dagger(as I always do) or try and find a staff. ( I have read the guide on the wiki, and try to follow it usually)

Thank you.

[TwilightPhoenix]

Don't worry about your weapon, you should be pwning stuff with magic. Find a weapon with the protection brand or a randart with decent boosts (combat capabilities of said weapons don't matter much, you should be magically blowing stuff up) until you find a useful staff, such as wizardry, channeling, energy, or of a spell school you're using.

Focus on your magic skills and, after Mephitic is reliable, focus on getting the strongest spells in your book online. Once those are up, then you can focus on defensive skills or boosting utility spells, depending on what you've found (though if you get Blink and Control Tele, get Translocations up ASAP after you have at least a half-decent attack spell going).

You may consider going for Vehumet. While Vehumet doesn't give you every spell in the game, you're certain to get better stuff to kill monsters with sooner as well as some good passive bonuses. The lack of Sif channeling is made by Vehumet's mana for kills as well as finding a Staff of Channeling sooner or later. Or, with very good Evo (aka probably late game), a Crystal Ball of Energy.

Also, even though you're a caster, corridors are still your friend. When in doubt, run.

[Link]

Thanks, but when I run, they catchup, like when i run out of mana, and i usually die... any thoughts?

[Psieye]

A staff is for way later. Take up a dagger but don't put any skill investment into it at all. Don't even hit anything with that dagger unless you are out of mana and can't run away, or it's against a really really easy target like a rat when you're Lv 8.

A large part of learning the earlygame is understanding when to run away. This is especially true when you've just cast mephitic cloud - it's really loud. If there were monsters nearby, they'll be woken up and may come over to investigate. Similarly, know which monsters show up in packs/squads and learn how to peel them off by luring them away: monsters shout when they first see you but don't shout afterwards. That means if only one mob has a visual lead on you, the rest of his pack will briefly give chase based on that shout but quickly lose interest if they never get to see you (because you ducked around a few corners).

If you're running out of mana in the middle of a fight and they still have hefty HP left, you made a mistake. Mistakes happen, this is what consumables are for - insurance against mistakes and instances of bad luck. But you're in the earlygame, where you don't know what your consumables are, so the best way to deal with this: don't start the fight in the first place. Wait until circumstances are better, i.e. see the above 'peel off' advice or avoid the fight and come back when you're stronger.

Oh and if you're learning Throw Frost and are spamming that as soon as you hit Lv 2, that is counterproductive. Magic dart is good enough for quite a long portion of the earlygame, at least until you reach Lair. Provided you get its spellpower high ASAP but you're a DECj, that's almost done when you start. Magic dart never misses, it just doesn't do much against high armour targets. But you don't have many high armour targets (that you can't run awya from) in the earlygame.

[Link]

I actually don't bother with Throw Frost, just use Magic Dart. However, what should I specialize in for my skills, and i usually can't seem to learn freeze cloud since it always shows a 100% failure rate, letting me not memorize it.

[Psieye]

Freezing cloud is for when you're starting to hit Lair. That's while throwing all your EXP at the relevant skills. Which you should do, but don't expect to hvae freezing cloud available fast. Mephitic cloud and magic dart are all you need to get to Lair, by which point you should have Lightning bolt and (a bit later) freezing cloud online.

[Link]

@Psieye, what skills are relevant, like should I just have conjuring open, or conjuring and spellcasting, or something else, and turn off all other skills?

[Psieye]

Oh that, ask http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/bots. Search for "success_rate" and pay attention to the 2nd point. Then it should be obvious considering you want mephitic cloud then lighting bolt and finally freezing cloud online.

[Link]

Well, I was reading that fire is better than ice, so then freeze cloud is not necessary, anyways, from what i gather, I need spell-casting, and just pump everything to intelligence when leveling, than just level up my area(s) of specialization, such as fire and conjuration?

[KoboldLord]

Well, I was reading that fire is better than ice, so then freeze cloud is not necessary, anyways, from what i gather, I need spell-casting, and just pump everything to intelligence when leveling, than just level up my area(s) of specialization, such as fire and conjuration?

A spell you have and can cast is infinitely better than a spell that you do not have and cannot cast. Sticking exclusively to your very weakest spell in hopes of randomly lucking into a specific spellbook drop is a terrible idea that is unlikely to ever result in significant progress in the game. If you start using the other four spells in your starting book once Magic Dart starts to struggle to handle enemy armor, you're likely to start making it significantly farther.

Magic Dart never misses, but its damage does get reduced by the enemy's armor class. As a first-level spell, it has a fairly low damage cap that you can never improve past no matter what. If you run into a high-armor class enemy, like an orc warrior in a suit of plate armour, the orc's average damage reduction roll from its armor class is likely to be higher than your average damage roll from your Magic Dart, so Magic Dart will simply not be able to handle such an enemy no matter how long you try. You need to use a stronger spell that will still have damage left over after the orc's armor class mitigates part of it.

Crawl starting backgrounds are usually pretty minimalist. Everything they provide to you is usually pretty useful in at least some early-game circumstance. If you're not using one of your starting resources on a regular basis, you should probably mess with it until you figure out what it's for.

[crate]

Fire is maybe marginally better than ice at conjurations. Ice magic overall is almost certainly better than fire though, since while it may have slightly worse conjurations (and this is arguable: fire has sticky flame and fireball and conjure flame; ice has throw icicle and freezing cloud and refrigeration; which of those combinations is better is for you to decide on your own but I would lean toward ice) it has much better non-conjuration skills: ozocubu's armour, summon ice beast, condensation shield, maybe ice form, englaciation if you want to put some xp into hexes to make it useful, and so on.

Regardless any type of conjuration is good enough to get you 3 runes and the orb, though I suppose poison is probably worse than the others at killing everything (but in exchange you get the best single-target conjuration in the game, and pcloud is imo better than fcloud).

---

Anyway as for the original question there are a few things I might suggest. One is I might suggest trying a different race, like human or naga or draconian. These will have less oomph on their spells and will take a bit longer to get high-level ones castable, but in exchange you are much more survivable and are better at picking up a weapon. KL's advice above is good, you should definitely learn the spells you have since trusting to the game to generate spells you don't have quickly is a losing proposition. Better tactics are always an option, and if you are using meph extensively you can almost certainly improve your play because a large majority of crawl players don't really think about what it means to use a spell that's that loud regularly.

Switching to a different background is also a possibility. Ice elementalist is probably a bit stronger than conjurer; fire elementalist has sticky flame and if you want to use fire you should choose FE; air elementalist has swiftness for running from enemies though you are comparatively limited in your attack options in your starting book. Venom mage has the longest useful lifetime on its level 1 spell and you still get meph and you get a level 5 bolt spell, though there's not a lot of offense between sting and venom bolt. Wizard has a book that runs out quickly but has many useful spells ... it is not really a conjurer-style background though: it's closer to summoner.

[rebthor]

Better tactics are always an option, and if you are using meph extensively you can almost certainly improve your play because a large majority of crawl players don't really think about what it means to use a spell that's that loud regularly.

Switching to a different background is also a possibility. Ice elementalist is probably a bit stronger than conjurer; fire elementalist has sticky flame and if you want to use fire you should choose FE; air elementalist has swiftness for running from enemies though you are comparatively limited in your attack options in your starting book. Venom mage has the longest useful lifetime on its level 1 spell and you still get meph and you get a level 5 bolt spell, though there's not a lot of offense between sting and venom bolt. Wizard has a book that runs out quickly but has many useful spells ... it is not really a conjurer-style background though: it's closer to summoner.

create, when do you meph? Generally if I have it, it's only for orc priests, ogres, early centaur, maybe yak packs if I don't have a handy corridor and uniques. Of course, when in trouble now, I'd rather take the risk of maybe drawing more attention in return for probably surviving.

I agree with you about IE and Wz, but the issue I would have recommending them to a a newer player is they are both more difficult to start with since you probably want to branch out into some fighting with the ice book due to Ozocubo's, condensation shield and ice beast. While you can continue to run and gun, fireball is definitely better for that than throw icicle. And Wz relies heavily upon bravely running away, imps and meph. I used to think it was the weakest magic background, but now I think that it's the most flexible for letting a player survive to Lair.

[Link]

Thanks, I might try a deep elf ice elementilist then.

[crate]

The big thing is that after you use meph, you cannot stay where you just used it for a long time (unless you're near a staircase). You just did something loud, so enemies from in hearing-range but outside of your LOS will start moving toward your meph. This same thing applies to other loud spells, and I see a lot of players not even think about this when I watch. I know I've at least once seen a chei naga using fireball at low mp and then trying to rest up in the same place he just fireballed and then what do you know ... enemies wandered in.

I don't like using meph a lot with conjurer-types because it uses up mp I could use on otherwise dealing damage, but it's a good spell when you want to just run away with them ... it's fine to use it to block spells like from orc priests and wizards too. With melee characters (MiWz, OgVm, TrCj, etc.) then it is a very good tool for confusing things then hitting them with a weapon. But you need to think about where you can retreat to after making a lot of noise.

[Psieye]

The big thing is that after you use meph, you cannot stay where you just used it for a long time (unless you're near a staircase). You just did something loud, so enemies from in hearing-range but outside of your LOS will start moving toward your meph. This same thing applies to other loud spells, and I see a lot of players not even think about this when I watch. I know I've at least once seen a chei naga using fireball at low mp and then trying to rest up in the same place he just fireballed and then what do you know ... enemies wandered in.

I think a big issue with that is that there is nothing clear in the UI to really tell the player "you just made a big noise". Yes you can look it up in spell information and the text output sometimes points it out but it's not conspicuous. Do the tutorials even cover anything on noise?

I don't like using meph a lot with conjurer-types because it uses up mp I could use on otherwise dealing damage, but it's a good spell when you want to just run away with them ... it's fine to use it to block spells like from orc priests and wizards too. With melee characters (MiWz, OgVm, TrCj, etc.) then it is a very good tool for confusing things then hitting them with a weapon. But you need to think about where you can retreat to after making a lot of noise.

I actually go the other way - I take up archery and leave all my mp for meph (and lightning bolt until fcloud is online). Magic dart becomes relegated to "this is a damn bat/imp/etc, it's got too much EV for me to reliably use arrows on".

[SchwaWarrior]

Fire Magic vs. Ice Magic:
* Go with Fire Magic if your style is to blast the crap out of everything in sight.
* Go with Ice Magic if your style is slower, more tactical and defensively oriented.

I tend to prefer Fire myself, but sometimes I'll go with Ice if I roll a Demonspawn character with ancestral mutations made to help more with Ice, or a White Draconian by XL7, or I get more early-game Ice spellbooks instead of Fire spellbooks.

There is also the idea of leveling Fire and Ice magic up in total perfect synchronization no matter what, all the time, so that neither has a negative aptitude from the other, but I've not tried that yet.

[TwilightPhoenix]

Ah, Venom Mages, certainly the background I recommend for a "Get me to the Lair now!" pure-caster. It branches into Air quite nicely, which Vehumet gives plenty of quite quickly, and also has tools to deal with the majority of the early game threats. Lone enemy? Sting it to death. Threatening enemy? Mephitic Cloud. Got poisoned? Cure Poison. Pack of monsters that don't have rPois? Olgreb's Toxic Radiance two-four times, Cure Poison, and watch as they all die (this can turn an OOD bee room from a death sentence into easyish XP). Need more firepower? Venom Bolt. If you want them, you'll also be able to cast Poison Arrow and Poisonous Cloud much sooner whenever they become available.

Of course, there's the issue with rPois enemies, but outside of random fast zombies and a few rPois snakes, you can run from them if Vehumet (or Sif) hasn't gifted you any better/other attacks yet. Or handle most of em with a slightly trained weapon. A character with Slings 2 using just a plain sling and rocks can, for example, usually kill a Jelly before or right as it enters melee range with them (and in fact, a lot of my characters will train Slings to 2 just for this since I hate Jellies with a passion and the XP spent is very minimal).

Note I do strongly recommend Vehumet or Sif with a VM. While other gods are certainly possible (one of my tourny wins was a FeVM who worshipped Jiyva the entire game), Lair is a serious PITA for a VM if lots of rPois stuff spawns, such as Hydras. Vehumet will usually gift the first book, which contains alternatives to poison, pretty fast while Sif might give you other options... or might throw utility spells/stuff you can't begin to cast yet.

[Krsqk]

I'm kind of in a similar bind with DECj. I recently came back to Crawl, having played back in the 0.8-0.9 days. No wins, although I took a MiDK to XL27 before I YASD'd him. My strategy so far has been:

1) Turn off everything except spellcasting and conj. Focus conj.
2) Once I hit lvl 2, grab Throw Frost (mostly for those pesky imps who seem to flock to me) and turn on ice just to get a start on it toward Freezing Cloud/BoC
3) Once i hit lvl 3, grab Meph, turn off ice, and turn on air.
4) Find nasties, pull back from the black, meph depending on nastiness, and nuke to oblivion.
5) Once I find Vehu's altar, join up with him.
6) Once BoLightning gets reasonably castable, tag big nasties with Magic Dart, run away, and hope one or two casts of BoL finish them off (and that they leave a corpse, since I'm usually Near Starving by the time they die).

This seems to work reasonably well, but I find myself seriously missing Repel Missiles (I'm looking at *you*, centaurs!) and Blink. I'm using every trick I know and playing as conservatively as I can to not *need* blink, but sometimes you come around a corner and see two orc priests, two orc warriors in plate, and an OOD water moccasin all up in your grill. I'm usually good at stopping, walking off, checking my inventory several times to see if there's anything helpful, but sometimes being able to get around the corner and out of LOS seems irreplaceable.

I've been reasonably lucky with gear (although Xom, er, the RNG has thrown *2* sets of crystal plate armor at me since I've settled on the casters - one came on some low level monster, maybe a kobold?, who apparently pinched it from somewhere, and a DL3 Necronomicon and Grand Grimoire once each) - early rings of wizardry/energy, the first two amulets of the gourmand i've ever seen, robes of resistance, etc. However I've had the worst time getting additional nukes. I've played maybe twenty games as DECj since coming back. I've had the temple on DL4 exactly three times, and two of those times, it was the corrupted temple. I've had an altar of Vehumet on DL1(!) once, only to get killed within twenty turns of finding it by those friggin kobold blowgunners. Temple is almost always on DL 6 or 7, and at least 5 times there's been no altar to Vehu there. Twice, his altar was on DL8 or 9 with freezing fields around it, and once it was on DL8 with a flame field *on top* of it. It's like he seriously doesn't want my worship or something. Regardless, it makes it very tough to build piety high enough to start getting god gifts, which IIRC start at the end of ***** or the start of ******. Despite my other good finds, I'm am not stumbling over other books with nukes. BoLightning and BoCold start out with so much hunger cost and are so expensive that I can't spam them if I get into trouble, so I've been trying to avoid the Lair and keep diving until it gets hard.

I've tried DEWz, but I find I have to let imps + Meph handle most the hard stuff, since Magic Dart gets noticeably weaker around the entrance to Orc Mines. My bad luck finding lvl 4-5 nukes also carries over to my wizards, so I end up hoping I find stuff asleep when I come around the corner, then step back and spam imps to go kill it.

I'd happily take any advice I can get. I'm quite aware I'm not an excellent player, but I think I do reasonably well using consumables to get out of trouble, at least when the game condescends to give me any.

[Link]

WOW, thanks for all the advice, question: I usually end up with a-lot of random scrolls like (SJHNS JNDKJ) and so on, when's the best time to open them, usually i just leaver them since i don't want to mess anything up.

[cerebovssquire]

Scrolls should be immediately read. Potions should be identified by using scrolls on them. This is because reading scrolls doesn't pose (much) of a risk while potions can cripple you (certain ones deal direct damage that can be fatal if you can't cure it, certain ones rot you, and mutation is, for most characters, worst of all). Wands can be zapped at a weak monster, preferably with a wall behind it in order to identify a possible digging wand.

[BlackSheep]

Do take sensible precautions like reading scrolls at full health, etc.

[Psieye]

Do take sensible precautions like reading scrolls at full health, etc.

Biggest precaution: wield a dagger when reading until you know which one is curse weapon. You do NOT want to starve because you have some blunt weapon stuck in your hand. Oh and don't read if a Noise scroll will fuck you up.

5) Once I find Vehu's altar, join up with him.

I appreciate he's the best for a pure Cj style but sometimes crawl makes it REALLY inconvenient to get the god you want. Consider Kiku as an alternative, it's a surprisingly good synergy and your first book is at 1*. Nothing high level in that first book, but the extra versatility is invalueable. Pain is an excellent alternative nuke for high AC monsters that have bad MR (and who aren't undead/demonic). Animate skeleton is a ridiculously efficient spell. If Kiku decides to give you sublimation of blood, that's arguably better than Vehumet's mana resupply mechanic. Undead minions don't care about meph cloud so you can blast away all you want at your own army. They're resistant to cold too so freezing cloud is tolerable for them.

Just don't pick Sif for a Cj - in my view, she's good for every other mage EXCEPT a Cj style "I need to blow stuff up and I need mana!" in the early/midgame. Lategame when you've had time to grow Invocations and possibly get Necromutation thens he's awesome for a Cj style, but getting there may require say, summon spam (which Cj don't start with).

The other alternative is to pick up a bow and put some skill into it (e.g. 3).

[crate]

The biggest risk to quaff-ID is that you might quaff ID speed and resistance and agility and might.

[Psieye]

The biggest risk to quaff-ID is that you might quaff ID speed and resistance and agility and might.

Never quaff-ID unless you've parked some badass monster right next to the stairs on the next level that those potions would be useful for. Well, resistance is harder to make useful on quaff-ID but I consider that acceptable losses - speed, agility, might and rage should never be wasted just because a player is quaff-ID'ing them.

[crate]

Have you tried descending a staircase after you just quaffed berserk???? This sounds like an amusing way to get people to die....

Also you still lose the potion for taking out a single monster that you just proved you can avoid, this is kind of bad.

[ebarrett]

It looks like some people will aggressively defend bad advice, as well.

[Krsqk]

5) Once I find Vehu's altar, join up with him.

I appreciate he's the best for a pure Cj style but sometimes crawl makes it REALLY inconvenient to get the god you want. Consider Kiku as an alternative, it's a surprisingly good synergy and your first book is at 1*. Nothing high level in that first book, but the extra versatility is invalueable. Pain is an excellent alternative nuke for high AC monsters that have bad MR (and who aren't undead/demonic). Animate skeleton is a ridiculously efficient spell. If Kiku decides to give you sublimation of blood, that's arguably better than Vehumet's mana resupply mechanic. Undead minions don't care about meph cloud so you can blast away all you want at your own army. They're resistant to cold too so freezing cloud is tolerable for them.

Just don't pick Sif for a Cj - in my view, she's good for every other mage EXCEPT a Cj style "I need to blow stuff up and I need mana!" in the early/midgame. Lategame when you've had time to grow Invocations and possibly get Necromutation thens he's awesome for a Cj style, but getting there may require say, summon spam (which Cj don't start with).

The other alternative is to pick up a bow and put some skill into it (e.g. 3).[/quote]
I hadn't really considered using a bow yet, although DE aptitude for it is quite good. I'd considered Kiku a few times, especially the time I had 2 altars + temple with no Vehu. By the time I get to where sublimation is looking good, though, I'm usually too hungry from throwing lightning bolt around and want to eat the chunks myself. Does Sub work on poison/mutating chunks as well? At least those stupid scorpions and sky beasts would be worth something then.

I'm going to stop descending further after I find the Lair...finally found it on DL9, and DL10 greeted me with 4 centaurs, a troll simulacrum(!), a guardian serpent(!!), Psyche, and Josephine. Obviously it's a sign that the Random Number God wants me to bring messy death to many many beasts before trying to descend.

[Psieye]

Have you tried descending a staircase after you just quaffed berserk???? This sounds like an amusing way to get people to die....

Also you still lose the potion for taking out a single monster that you just proved you can avoid, this is kind of bad.

Not quite so bad if all staircases were blocked like that. It really is situational: some games you just don't get enough identify scrolls but have some 6 stacks of potions that have more than 1 quantity each. I'd much rather know what my potions are and if half-wasting a potion is the price of knowledge (in return for a small EXP boost) then I consider that a fair trade. Consumables exist to be used and I've never felt "oh shit, I really wish I had one more might/agility/speed potion for this situation". By midgame I just don't really NEED these 'buff pots' because it's much easier to walk away from stuff that would otherwise warrant using them.

Oh and I don't understand the big reaction over quaffing berserk and going downstairs. It's the same stairs I just came up from, I have a monster waiting for me right at melee range and nothing else in view. I know that should be the case as I just came up from those stairs. It's a monster I couldn't have comfortably fought unbuffed but I can quickly dispatch it while berserk (as a melee class). As soon as it's dead, I go back upstairs and rest. If that monster is not at melee range as soon as I've descended, I accept I've fucked up and go back upstairs again.

[crate]

You get like 1 turn of berserk if you have just taken stairs. Have you actually tried this?

[Psieye]

You get like 1 turn of berserk if you have just taken stairs. Have you actually tried this?

Yes. In fact, let me load up wizmode and experiment.


Hmm, ok we're both right: you get 1~2 turns of berserk after just having come down the stairs from quaffing !rage, PROVIDED you don't attack something immediately. If you have a monster exactly at melee range as soon as you've come down from the stairs, you can easily get in about 5+ attacks. Be experience does confirm that berserk lasts much longer if you're constantly attacking something as opposed to just moving about.

[Galefury]

It looks like some people will aggressively defend bad advice, as well.

[TwilightPhoenix]

If your melee skills aren't too great, that Berserk potion could be suicidal even if the monster is next to the stairs since a DE can get one or two shotted by, say, an Ogre even while berserked if the dice hate you. If all the downstairs are dangerously camped and you have nowhere else to go, you can always try an escape hatch. Or a shaft if you're really desperate, but I would not recommend it unless all the hatches dump you into those dangerously camped spots. Or, alternatively, read Tele and then go down the stairs. Or if downstairs are in sight on the badly camped spot(s), you can use a Scroll of Blinking to reach those and skip the level.

There's no guarantee those methods won't get you into a situation that's just as bad or worse, but it beats doing something that may outright kill you.

[Psieye]

If your melee skills aren't too great, that Berserk potion could be suicidal even if the monster is next to the stairs since a DE can get one or two shotted by, say, an Ogre even while berserked if the dice hate you. If all the downstairs are dangerously camped and you have nowhere else to go, you can always try an escape hatch. Or a shaft if you're really desperate, but I would not recommend it unless all the hatches dump you into those dangerously camped spots. Or, alternatively, read Tele and then go down the stairs. Or if downstairs are in sight on the badly camped spot(s), you can use a Scroll of Blinking to reach those and skip the level.

There's no guarantee those methods won't get you into a situation that's just as bad or worse, but it beats doing something that may outright kill you.

Note my parenthesis:

(as a melee class)

I was assuming this wasn't some wtf challenge melee start like DEFi. Obviously a squishy mage would find a rage potion to be a bad thing - don't go down the stairs in that case. Depending on which mage you are, you have more options on the table in the earlygame anyway.


Ok we've hit the point where we aren't properly engaged in the discussion anymore. We've laid out our views and further words aren't going to change opinions today. I'll wrap up for the newbies: "Rule of thumb: don't quaff-ID. There exist a few dubious edge cases where you aren't panic-quaff-ID'ing which give dubious returns for the cost. Play it safe: learning to play it safe is an important lesson in crawl."

[BlackSheep]

Does Sub work on poison/mutating chunks as well? At least those stupid scorpions and sky beasts would be worth something then.

It does, and on acidic and rotten chunks as well.

[Krsqk]

Does Sub work on poison/mutating chunks as well? At least those stupid scorpions and sky beasts would be worth something then.

It does, and on acidic and rotten chunks as well.

Awesome! I guess I won't be quite so quick to discard those offensive-smelling chunks, then.

[TwilightPhoenix]

Well, if you're a proper melee character, you should be able to walk down the stairs and then quaff for maximum rage time. If you can't, then you really don't have any business trying to engage that monster in any way, shape, or form to begin with.

[Psieye]

Well, if you're a proper melee character, you should be able to walk down the stairs and then quaff for maximum rage time. If you can't, then you really don't have any business trying to engage that monster in any way, shape, or form to begin with.

The whole point of this was that this is earlygame where you don't know which potion is the rage potion. The ill-advised art of quaff-ID.

I'd normally write more words to make sure my point was understood but this discussion is over.

[Xoai]

My fav class/background is DEWz
I can make it through lair without a second spell book. The secret is conjur flame!!
Used correctly, spiny frogs, hydrae, orc warriors/knights can all be taken down by magic dart. Ring or staff of magic power is your greatest asset for that strategy, as anything that won't step in the flame (orc warrior, ogre, poisony things) will take up to 20 mDarts. Even grinder is no trouble for me at xl3 on D:2 with this strategy...
Also, I never memorize call imp (worthless and boring playstyle)
I train +spellcasting and *conjurations until conj flame and meph coud have no spell hunger. Then switch to translocations and charms to get blink and rmissles to 3%. then back to conjurations until meph and flame are 3%. then, if i find a buckler, get shields to 5.0... if not, train dodging or traps until my second spell book. later, get chosen nukes castable with little or no hunger (depending on your food situation... I'll keep spellcasting low if I have amulet of gourmand or similar)
I always choose sif if reasonably available, even though i'm a nuker... channeling and access to high level support magic earlier is, imo, better than lvl 4 conj spells before lair. If i find/get gifted controlled blink before good nukes, then I will stop everything and train translocations until it's reliable (cBlink is the most powerful spell in the game, imo)
Ironically, I can't get a melee char past D:6, but I have no prob escaping with 5+ runes as a Wz...
other things to note... elven leather armor doesn't hurt DE casting success (10+ AC on a DEWz by lair is godmode [through rings and weapon of protection, enchant armor scrolls, or ice magic buffs if found] - this will allow you to sustain 2-3 turns next to a hydra while he stands in a cloud of flame) later, you should get a steam dragon hide and enchant to +5... or light randart armor with some skill levels, thuogh, i think that 27 in armor will only drop -1 EV to -.3333 EV, so I think that any armor past elf leather or steam dragon is going to hurt your casting forever. that is, if you want ice storm and shatter and LCS at 1%...
other things to note for later... vault:5(8) opening is a joke with high earth magic and shatter
only train poison if you find poison arrow (super strong, but arguably not worth it... iron shot and LCS aren't that far behind in damage, and both are irresistable)
always have a backup if your main conj attack can be resisted... IMB is mega powerfull if you go glass cannon and keep conj training through lair... maybe 3 to kill a hydra, and only 4-5 for a demonic crawler (so scary)
a post lair caster feels mighty indestructable, but you will meet something called a ghost moth at some point... lol... or their evil overlord... Mennas... and unseen horrors can be an untimely death without sInv or a corridor to shoot blind in... once those 3 are no problem, you'll be ready to clear the dungeon and all early branches... then get your lvl9 storm spell castable and head to abyss for the rune... then troll through pan 3xing ice/fire storm on pan lords until you have all artefact equipment... then take slime (or earlier with cloak of preservation)... then hells and tomb if you're badass... no need to switch gods... especially if you get the necronomicon and can cast necromutation...no hunger channelin is game breaking for a caster... never did a ziggurat though, not sure if it's enough with the 1 turn loss to channel... maybe TSO or Vehumet is the best there for MP management... All of your YASD's will be a result of not running away while you still have lots of MP... remember to keep at least 2 for a blink
If your goal is 3 runes, I would go Ice Magic and take ice storm into Zot... orbs of fire will eat you alive otherwise at that XL...

tl;dr... i know... but to answer your question, change to Wz and use the support spells in the starting book to survive longer... and did i mention conjur flame?!?!?!?

[Psieye]

Also, I never memorize call imp (worthless and boring playstyle)

What? Never memorise your best corridor escape mechanism, your best tank for conjure flame, your poor man's Animate Dead, your "get out of this ugly surround" card? Certainly don't use it as your main battle spell but it's utter folly to never make use of it.

anything that won't step in the flame (orc warrior, ogre, poisony things) will take up to 20 mDarts

No, you MAKE them step in the flame by tricking their AI. They won't step into a dangerous cloud while their current tile is safe. If you then fill it with meph, they will re-assess that they're already in a cloud anyway so will happily walk into the flame. Park an imp so they can't then leave the flame and you can kill things by closing doors on them or keeping the imp corridor block re-stocked.

[palin]

Also, I never memorize call imp (worthless and boring playstyle)

What? Never memorise your best corridor escape mechanism, your best tank for conjure flame, your poor man's Animate Dead, your "get out of this ugly surround" card? Certainly don't use it as your main battle spell but it's utter folly to never make use of it.

If you have plenty of MP summon 4 to 6 imps in the open and position yourself one tile away from one of them, cast Meph on it to include the enemy in the blast, see orc warriors die horribly.

[Psieye]

Also, I never memorize call imp (worthless and boring playstyle)

What? Never memorise your best corridor escape mechanism, your best tank for conjure flame, your poor man's Animate Dead, your "get out of this ugly surround" card? Certainly don't use it as your main battle spell but it's utter folly to never make use of it.

If you have plenty of MP summon 4 to 6 imps in the open and position yourself one tile away from one of them, cast Meph on it to include the enemy in the blast, see orc warriors die horribly.

It's the budding summoner's dilemma - they want summons to tank, but not to steal EXP by doing much damage. Way later on they're not so concerned with the EXP loss, but earlygame you don't want your summons draining you of your growth.

Certainly though, meph+imp (without conjure flame) is a solid way of taking out the rare threat when you don't have a corridor handy.

[palin]

It's the budding summoner's dilemma - they want summons to tank, but not to steal EXP by doing much damage. Way later on they're not so concerned with the EXP loss, but earlygame you don't want your summons draining you of your growth.

Fewer XP is still better the dead...

[rebthor]

Also, I never memorize call imp (worthless and boring playstyle)

What? Never memorise your best corridor escape mechanism, your best tank for conjure flame, your poor man's Animate Dead, your "get out of this ugly surround" card? Certainly don't use it as your main battle spell but it's utter folly to never make use of it.

If you have plenty of MP summon 4 to 6 imps in the open and position yourself one tile away from one of them, cast Meph on it to include the enemy in the blast, see orc warriors die horribly.

Summon Imp is literally the second best spell in that book. Perhaps even the best by the time you get to Lair and you can't use meph as your get of of jail free card. With enough imps you can kill hydra. It's hard and suboptimal but it's possible.

[njvack]

Scrolls should be immediately read.

A caveat to this: read-ID'ing your only teleportation scroll on a mostly-unexplored level can deposit you in a really bad place. "Immediately" is more "as soon as you're somewhere safe" than "the very turn you pick it up."

[Psieye]

Scrolls should be immediately read.

A caveat to this: read-ID'ing your only teleportation scroll on a mostly-unexplored level can deposit you in a really bad place. "Immediately" is more "as soon as you're somewhere safe" than "the very turn you pick it up."

Same with a scroll of noise, immolation or torment that you really weren't expecting. Read-ID in a safe place.

[njvack]

Well, for optimal crappiness, you should really read teleport, torment, immolation, and noise in that order. Hopefully you'll make your loud noise while super low on health right after popping into a newly-discovered gnoll castle or something.

[SchwaWarrior]

Well, for optimal crappiness, you should really read teleport, torment, immolation, and noise in that order. Hopefully you'll make your loud noise while super low on health right after popping into a newly-discovered gnoll castle or something.

You forgot Vulnerability and Silence right after Noise.

[njvack]

Vulnerability, sure, but I'm not sure about Silence. You wouldn't want to muffle the gnolls' shouts or anything.

[TwilightPhoenix]

<snip>

I... I don't know what to make of that post. It's like good advice and bad advice got together and had a baby, which is that post.

[Xoai]

<snip>

I... I don't know what to make of that post. It's like good advice and bad advice got together and had a baby, which is that post.

lol... i've only been crawling for 2 months, so none of my advice is worth its weight in anything... (i think the best advice i can give though, is to ask ##crawl i/o the wiki) but, that strategy outlined above gets me to the extended game every time. I usually end up dieing stupidly in zot or pan though, before ascending, because of poor MP management (despite having sif). One thing I would strongly defend though, is the importance of the spellcasting skill. I read a lot of stuff saying that you should only train it for more spell levels, when needed, but I think that's wrong. The only Dr that ever made it past the lair for me (my highest score in the .11 tournament) was a purple DrWz. I think the +4 apt from DE is the only reason I can be successful at crawl. I don't know if it's a max MP thing, or a spell hunger/success thing, but I've never gotten any Wz's past temple with a negative apt in SC...

Also, in response to the call imp discussion... I used to memorize it immediately at XL2, but later, preferred saving the spell levels for meph and conj flame... If you follow my skill training outline, you can get meph, flame, blink, and rmissles at XL3 (almost always on D:1, before those pesky D:2 centaurs). By the time you have all of those, call imp is only an oops, I messed up button. I do agree that it is powerful... 10 MP spent and some luck, and you have sigmund surrounded by 3 crimson, a white, and shadow imp (plus remains he's animated)... and if you're playing < .12 you can leave LOS and let them kill him for you while you wait... I became disenchanted with this strategy though, when I was summoning 8-9 dragons in zot and hitting 'tw' and just watching 'you feel i bit more experienced' scroll down the message window. Wasn't fun, and once I got a handle on DEWz, it wasn't necessary for survival.