post-game wizards

[nordetsa]

After beating 3-rune game with DeFe, I have regained my hope of ending this game with a 15-rune caster. I might try Octopede, because the idea of wearing 8 rings sound fun.

Though I am not sure how should I proceed. Now I roughly know what to do as to win 3-rune game, but trying Pandemonium/Hell I'm not so sure.

So here are some questions I'd like to ask.

1) Is staff of conjuration less effective in post-games? In my last DeFe win I got that pretty late, and the only noticeable thing it did was to reduce fire storm's spell hunger, which wasn't a big issue. Perhaps weapon with protection or resistance brand works better (though as a mage I don't think you would find most brands useful anyway)

2) How to deal with torment attack? Is Necromutation the only answer? From what I've played so far, the end-game play is pretty limited: you'd either go TSO to make up that lost hp or cast necromutation to be completely immune to it. I haven't played much, so this is all I know. Any other method? Does spamming fire storm works as it did in 3-rune game?

3) As in terms of spell, should I train summoning as well? I would think late-game spell would be swift/haste/blink/control teleport/fire storm/deflect missile/ and something else. I just don't know what something else would be. Dispel Undead? Summoning? Or more utility spells? I don't know even wandering around Pandemonium would give me enough xp to train all the necessary skills.

[Turgon]

After beating 3-rune game with DeFe, I have regained my hope of ending this game with a 15-rune caster.

Congratulations for thinking about this.

I might try Octopede, because the idea of wearing 8 rings sound fun.

Yes it's fun - but early and midgame is hard as Op.

Is staff of conjuration less effective in post-games? In my last DeFe win I got that pretty late, and the only noticeable thing it did was to reduce fire storm's spell hunger

A staff of conjuration doesn't affect spell hunger but increases your spell power significantly. It's a nice item if you go for conjurations no matter in which part of the game.

How to deal with torment attack? Is Necromutation the only answer? From what I've played so far, the end-game play is pretty limited: you'd either go TSO to make up that lost hp or cast necromutation to be completely immune to it.

Necromut for casters and TSO for fighters are very popular indeed. There are other methods though, mainly:

• Playing undead races which are immune to torment
• playing deep dwarves
• worshipping Kiku
• fighting in statue form as transmuter

Does spamming fire storm works as it did in 3-rune game?

It does as it deals enough damage to fire resistant enemies too.

As in terms of spell, should I train summoning as well?

Imo it's enough to focus either on conjurations or on summoning.

[nago]

2) How to deal with torment attack? Is Necromutation the only answer? From what I've played so far, the end-game play is pretty limited: you'd either go TSO to make up that lost hp or cast necromutation to be completely immune to it. I haven't played much, so this is all I know. Any other method? Does spamming fire storm works as it did in 3-rune game?

You firestorm enemy with torment. If he still alive, you firestorm again. And again.
Seriosly, necromut is a nice and useful spell to have but it isn't actually essential to complete either pan, hell, tomb or even ziggurat.
Summarizing, there are two cases:
1) A single enemy with torment is in LOS: you kill him asap with some quiet spell like iron shot or lcs, to avoid attract others. If he's out of range you retreat (or move toward him, if you have some sort of suicidal tendency) maybe using walls to break LOS until he's close enough.
2)There are some enemies torment in LOS: you should try to keep them out of LOS - using c-blink, haste or switness - and kill them safely with firestorm; summon fire vortexs should concentrate most enemies' attack on them.

If you move around a bit more cautiously than a TrBe on D:1, you'll realize necromut ins't necessary at all. And don't use Firestorm in Tomb, especially in Tomb:3, unless you want to end in a situation you can't clear without necromut or death's door - read the topic two rows beneath to see what I mean.

3) As in terms of spell, should I train summoning as well? I would think late-game spell would be swift/haste/blink/control teleport/fire storm/deflect missile/ and something else. I just don't know what something else would be. Dispel Undead? Summoning? Or more utility spells? I don't know even wandering around Pandemonium would give me enough xp to train all the necessary skills.

Controlled blink, if you can't cast it yet, should be the priority. In addition to it, you want some spammable, cheap, possibly quiet and irresistible conjuration spell: iron shot or lcs are the common choices.
Utilities spells are useful in extended like normal game, so summon butterflies, sublimation of blood, regeneration and so on are always good spells to have. For most characters, deflect missiles is an overkill - repel is enough.
Dispel undead is good in Tomb and somewhat in tartarus, but iron shoot does the same job, so memorize the former only if you have spare spells slot you don't really need.
Among Pan, Hells and Tomb, you'll have enough xp to train whatever magic skill you want - so you may add summoning too: having summon dragons makes also extended a joke, but keep in mind that with firestorm you can already deal all the damage you need.

[nordetsa]

Oh. Didn't know there was actually a spell called 'controlled blink.' Wonder where can I get that spell from?

Also, I also think firestorming the Tomb:3 wouldn't be a good idea, as I would be subject to several death curses. But how would you clear Tomb then? I went there twice as MiFi, and the room was so dense I had to stairdance constantly until I could get the rune. Should I do the same for a wizard/FE/etc? I don't think controlled teleport is possible in Tomb:3, and highly doubt there is any safe space even if I could teleport at will.

One more question: about god, should I stick to Vehumet? After experiencing the wonder of his/her restoring mp when killing enemies, I don't think I want to go for Sif Muna or any other god.

[Turgon]

Oh. Didn't know there was actually a spell called 'controlled blink.' Wonder where can I get that spell from?

Look here.

about god, should I stick to Vehumet? After experiencing the wonder of his/her restoring mp when killing enemies, I don't think I want to go for Sif Muna or any other god.

Both Vehumet and Sif are very nice, although personally I'd prefer Vehumet.

[Southpaw]

You can stay with Vehumet just fine, all of his passive abilities will continue to be good throughout the entirety of the game. If you really wanted to switch gods, TSO is always a good choice, since he also restores MP on kills (HP too) for most of the enemies you will fight in extended, and he also provides useful summons if you need them.

[nago]

Oh. Didn't know there was actually a spell called 'controlled blink.' Wonder where can I get that spell from?

Also, I also think firestorming the Tomb:3 wouldn't be a good idea, as I would be subject to several death curses. But how would you clear Tomb then? I went there twice as MiFi, and the room was so dense I had to stairdance constantly until I could get the rune. Should I do the same for a wizard/FE/etc? I don't think controlled teleport is possible in Tomb:3, and highly doubt there is any safe space even if I could teleport at will.

One more question: about god, should I stick to Vehumet? After experiencing the wonder of his/her restoring mp when killing enemies, I don't think I want to go for Sif Muna or any other god.

Tomb can be cleared slowly but relativity easily with dispel undead, iron shot or similar spells. In tomb:1-2 try to kite one greater mummy/priest at time, and be ready to fall back if more enemies appears. In Tomb:3 you can finish the mummy guardians with those spells too, then you have to try to lure the big mummies near the stairs one at time, ready to stair dance a bit.
Otherwise, you can go use summons, if you have: greater demons is enough, though it requires a lot of time (and abjuration); add xxx or summon dragons to increase the fun.

Vehumet is very good in extended, but you'll need a reliable way to channel mp: a staff of channeling with a bit of evo is a good choice, otherwise a crystal ball of energy + a staff of evo + at least of 15 in evo is a better choice; missing that even sublimation of blood with some training in necro would suffice.

[snow]

Easiest way to go is probably lich form + crystal spear everything with Sif Muna channeling.

For zigs fire storm + Makhleb + staff of channeling is easy mode: every cast of fire storm fully heals you.

Here's my last win... I did 2 zigs then got bored of being invincible and just won:

  Code:

 Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.12-a0-542-g2d52c4a (webtiles) character file.

5999671 Sky the Archmage (level 27, 172/172 HPs)
             Began as a Spriggan Earth Elementalist on Sept 16, 2012.
             Was the Champion of Makhleb.
             Escaped with the Orb
             ... and 15 runes on Sept 18, 2012!
             
             The game lasted 13:32:02 (338260 turns).

Sky the Archmage (Spriggan Earth Elementalist)    Turns: 338260, Time: 13:32:02

HP 172/172       AC 16     Str 12      XL: 27
MP  49/50        EV 31     Int 22      God: Makhleb [******]
Gold 12191       SH  0     Dex 19      Spells: 14 memorised,  8 levels left

Res.Fire  : + + .   See Invis. : +   a - +19,+11 Staff of Wucad Mu
Res.Cold  : + + +   Warding    : .   M - +2 robe {rC+ rF+}
Life Prot.: + + +   Conserve   : +   (shield restricted)
Res.Poison: +       Res.Corr.  : +   d - +2 hat of the Alchemist {rElec rF+ rC+ MR}
Res.Elec. : +       Clarity    : +   b - +2 cloak {rCorr, Cons}
Sust.Abil.: + .     Spirit.Shd : .   (gloves unavailable)
Res.Mut.  : .       Stasis     : .   (boots unavailable)
Res.Rott. : +       Ctrl.Telep.: x   o - cursed amulet of the Four Winds {Clar rN+
Saprovore : . . .   Levitation : +   B - ring of wizardry
                    Ctrl.Flight: +   q - ring of sustain abilities

@: lich-form, flying, very quick, almost entirely resistant to hostile
enchantments, very stealthy
A: unfitting armour, see invisible, herbivore 3, speed 3, slow metabolism 2
a: End Transformation, Minor Destruction, Lesser Servant of Makhleb, Major
Destruction, Greater Servant of Makhleb, Renounce Religion
}: 15/15 runes: barnacled, slimy, silver, golden, iron, obsidian, icy, bone,
abyssal, demonic, glowing, magical, fiery, dark, gossamer

You escaped.
You worshipped Makhleb.
Makhleb was exalted by your worship.
You were not hungry.

You were in lich-form.

You visited 18 branches of the dungeon, and saw 107 of its levels.
You visited Pandemonium 8 times, and saw 96 of its levels.
You visited the Abyss 7 times.
You completed 2 Ziggurats, and saw 54 of their levels.
You also visited: Volcano.

You collected 32101 gold pieces.
You spent 10710 gold pieces at shops.
You used 9220 gold pieces for miscellaneous purposes.

Inventory:

Hand weapons
 a - the +19,+11 Staff of Wucad Mu (weapon)
   (You found it on level 5 of the Crypt)
Armour
 b - a +2 cloak of preservation (worn)
 d - the +2 hat of the Alchemist (worn) {rElec rF+ rC+ MR}
   (You bought it in a shop on level 20 of the Dungeon)   
   
   It protects you from fire.
   It protects you from cold.
   It insulates you from electricity.
   It increases your resistance to enchantments.
 M - a +2 robe of resistance (worn)
Magical devices
 g - a wand of teleportation (7)
 i - a wand of invisibility (9)
 H - a wand of heal wounds (9)
Scrolls
 e - 9 scrolls of blinking
 f - 4 scrolls of magic mapping
 j - 8 scrolls of teleportation
 n - 6 scrolls of recharging
 A - 2 scrolls of identify
Jewellery
 l - a cursed +2 ring of strength
 o - the cursed amulet of the Four Winds (around neck) {Clar rN+ MR}
   (You found it on level 25 of a ziggurat)   
   
   [amulet of clarity]
   
   It protects you from negative energy.
   It increases your resistance to enchantments.
   It has a curse placed upon it.
 q - a ring of sustain abilities (left hand)
 B - a ring of wizardry (right hand)
Potions
 m - 6 potions of heal wounds
 s - a potion of restore abilities
 t - 5 potions of porridge
 u - 2 potions of curing
 z - 7 potions of magic
 J - 2 potions of cure mutation
Orbs of Power
 c - the Orb of Zot


   Skills:
 O Level 27 Fighting
   Level 3.9 Long Blades
 O Level 27 Staves
 - Level 10.6 Armour
 - Level 14.3 Dodging
 O Level 27 Stealth
   Level 4.1 Shields
 O Level 27 Spellcasting
 + Level 26.4 Conjurations
 - Level 12.2 Charms
 - Level 7.3 Summonings
 - Level 16.1 Necromancy
 - Level 12.0 Translocations
 - Level 18.6 Transmutations
 O Level 27 Fire Magic
 - Level 10.6 Air Magic
 - Level 14.7 Earth Magic
   Level 5.1 Poison Magic
 O Level 27 Evocations


You had 8 spell levels left.
You knew the following spells:

 Your Spells              Type           Power        Failure   Level  Hunger
a - Lehudib's Crystal Sp  Conj/Erth      ########..   1%          8    N/A
b - Controlled Blink      Tloc           N/A          3%          7    N/A
d - Dig                   Trmt/Erth      ########.    0%          4    N/A
e - Apportation           Tloc           #######...   0%          1    N/A
f - Fire Storm            Conj/Fire      ########..   2%          9    N/A
g - Control Teleport      Chrm/Tloc      #######...   1%          4    N/A
h - Mass Abjuration       Summ           #######...   3%          6    N/A
k - Flight                Chrm/Air       #######...   1%          3    N/A
l - Necromutation         Trmt/Necr      #########.   3%          8    N/A
o - Regeneration          Chrm/Necr      ########..   0%          3    N/A
r - Deflect Missiles      Chrm/Air       #######...   1%          6    N/A
s - Dispel Undead         Necr           #########    1%          5    N/A
u - Blink                 Tloc           N/A          0%          2    N/A
w - Haste                 Chrm           #######..    1%          6    N/A


Dungeon Overview and Level Annotations

Branches:
Dungeon (27/27)            Temple (1/1) D:4             Orc (4/4) D:6
    Elf (3/3) Orc:4          Lair (8/8) D:11         Shoals (5/5) Lair:3
 Spider (5/5) Lair:4        Slime (6/6) Lair:7       Vaults (5/5) D:15
  Blade (1/1) Vaults:3      Crypt (5/5) Vaults:2       Tomb (3/3) Crypt:2
    Dis (7/7) Hell            Geh (7/7) Hell            Coc (7/7) Hell
    Tar (7/7) Hell            Zot (5/5) D:27       

Altars:
Ashenzari
Cheibriados
Elyvilon
Fedhas
Kikubaaqudgha
Makhleb
Nemelex Xobeh
Okawaru
Sif Muna
Trog
Vehumet
Xom
Yredelemnul
Zin
the Shining One
Beogh
Lugonu

Shops:
D:11: (  D:13: [  D:15: ?  D:17: (  D:19: ?*!  D:20: [!?*!  D:21: /+!
D:27: /  Orc:1: [  Orc:2: ?=[  Orc:3: [  Orc:4: +%+%[(%(  Elf:1: +
Shoals:5: =  Vaults:5: %(  Abyss: ((((

Portals:
Dungeon: Abyss*
Hell: D:21 D:22 D:23 D:24 D:25 D:26 D:27
Abyss: D:25 D:26
Pandemonium: D:21 D:24 D:27

Annotations
D:14 exclusion: Roxanne, Roxanne
Orc:3 exclusion: oklob plant
Slime:6 exclusion: upstairs
Geh:7 Asmodeus
Coc:7 Antaeus
Tar:7 Ereshkigal

Innate Abilities, Weirdness & Mutations

You are tiny and cannot use many weapons and most armour.
You have supernaturally acute eyesight.
You are a herbivore.
You cover ground extremely quickly.*
You need consume almost no food.


Message History

Casting: Flight
Confirm with . or Enter, or press ? or * to list all spells.
You feel more buoyant.
Casting: Flight
Confirm with . or Enter, or press ? or * to list all spells.
You feel a surge of power!
You extend your transformation's duration.
There is a stone staircase leading up here.
You aren't carrying or standing over any spellbooks.
You fly upwards.
You sense a powerful magical force warping space.
There is a stone staircase leading down here.
Unknown command.
There is a stone staircase leading up here.
You fly upwards.
You sense a powerful magical force warping space.
There is a stone staircase leading down here.
There is a staircase leading out of the dungeon here.
Are you sure you want to win?
You have escaped!

         #.............).......
         #.........########...#
         #.....#####      #####
         ##....################
       ####....................
       #...##......############
 #######.#.##......#       ####
##(..##....##......#########...
#.............L................
#....##....)..##########...#...
#....#####.......>.....#.......
####...................###.....
   #.......##..........###...##
   #.......#############.....#
   #.##....#           #.....#
   #.##....#           #.....#
   #.##....#           #######

There were no monsters in sight!

Grand Total: 13140 creatures vanquished
             


[njvack]

You can stay with Vehumet just fine, all of his passive abilities will continue to be good throughout the entirety of the game. If you really wanted to switch gods, TSO is always a good choice, since he also restores MP on kills (HP too) for most of the enemies you will fight in extended, and he also provides useful summons if you need them.

Unless I'm totally mistaken, Vehumet doesn't give piety for demon kills (lord only knows why) so maintaining piety in Pan may prove difficult.

[KoboldLord]

Unless I'm totally mistaken, Vehumet doesn't give piety for demon kills (lord only knows why) so maintaining piety in Pan may prove difficult.

I don't know why Vehumet doesn't give piety for killing demons, but she does give piety for killing undead. Undead are common popcorn in every demon-infested post-endgame branch, so you'd really have to have some exceptionally unusual run of bad luck to streak enough abomination-free Pan levels to actually lose two whole pips of piety.

I have played many Vehumet characters through the extended endgame, and I have never seen one of them dip below ***** piety, and even then only briefly. I have never seen one of them lose one of Vehumet's granted passives.

[snow]

I don't see any reason to have Vehumet that late in the game unless you just can't be bothered to abandon her.

Getting HP on kills or having Torment resistance is way more useful than getting a trivial amount of MP every so often.

[onton]

I don't see any reason to have Vehumet that late in the game unless you just can't be bothered to abandon her.

Getting HP on kills or having Torment resistance is way more useful than getting a trivial amount of MP every so often.

Increased ranged for LCS and casting high-level spells from the schools you are not trained in? Also mana cost matters, because it's a free cblink after firestorming fest.

[njvack]

Unless I'm totally mistaken, Vehumet doesn't give piety for demon kills (lord only knows why) so maintaining piety in Pan may prove difficult.

I don't know why Vehumet doesn't give piety for killing demons, but she does give piety for killing undead. Undead are common popcorn in every demon-infested post-endgame branch, so you'd really have to have some exceptionally unusual run of bad luck to streak enough abomination-free Pan levels to actually lose two whole pips of piety.

Ah, I'd forgotten that wild aboms were undead and not just evil

[wux]

I just won a 15 rune game with a Vehumet with a HeFe,
you can check my recent YAVP post if you like.
I have only beaten the game using one type of build, so my view is probably quite narrow. Others in this forum would be able provide info with more experience. But here are some of the things that I found important at least -

I did stay with Vehumet. The enhancements to spells really suited what I was doing.
If you kill enough mobs with a firestorm, you can actually *make* mana.

Spell selection was very important. ie change it to make it more suitable as you progress from mid-late game.

Between my sublimation of blood, crystal ball (needed high skill in Evocations), and Vehumet bonuses, I was able to run around an angel floor in pan killing so many things without being stuck with no mana. I found mana management late game to be critical actually, and it took me a while to manage it well.

Regeneration was really good for me in Hell as you cannot really rest. I killed all torment capable mobs as soon as I saw one, but if a torment did hit me, I just killed the mob, backed off and let regeneration do its thing. I dropped Orb of Dest which was great before pan/hell, but was too slow and unreliable for quick kills. I picked up Leh Cry Spear. LCS was a great nuke.

Stacking firestorm on Pan lords as well as the odd LCS let me kill everything - even lords that had fire resist.
I found flight important for the final fight in Cocytus where the lord is on an island and getting close to him was bad news.
I used Summon Horrible Things to soak up death curses in Tomb (and deaths door for going up the stairs at the last bit because I happened to draw so many mobs on the screen at once).
If you dont have boots of speed, keep swiftness up.

Which weapon to use depends on what gear you have. I didnt use a staff of conjuration/fire because I already had a robe of archmagi for spell power.
I killed easy things with a sword sometimes to save mana - I swapped between a upgraded holy wrath weapon (for demons/undead) and a weapon with INT and other bonuses.

Good luck.

[Konebred]

One thing I noticed about spellcasters is that once you get to Zot you pretty much should be prepared for end game already. If you find the book of the dragon, or really anything with summon dragon in it, it is worth it to dump all the rest of your XP in to summons and get that castable. Even if you can't kill something with summon dragon, a lot of the time I used them to break LOS with whatever boss I was fighting, snagged the rune and teleported away. The one caster I got to end game was an OcFE of Vehemet. I pretty much did exactly that too. Just leveled up and got fire storm castable, then crammed summon dragon on the last parts of the game. With all the wizardry bonuses you will have from your rings and vehs you should be pretty straight pretty quick.