How to avoid spell creep? SpFE advice

[danr]

I've been playing a lot of spriggans lately. The problem I'm finding is that no matter which build I start with, as I find some of the starting books for other backgrounds, I find myself wanting to learn all those spells too. Translocations? Yeah, those are handy, let's grab blink, apportation and shroud of golubria. Book of air? Flight and repel missiles, thanks, I'll take those too. Book of maledictions? Confuse and Ensorcelled Hibernation, okay. From other random books, um, let's get enslavement, cause fear, summon butterflies.

I'm currently running a SpFE but like my other spriggans it is slowly turning into a SpFEEnAEWzAM.

Any advice on which of those spells above not to bother with?

Spells I've got but am finding that I'm not using:
- cause fear
- project noise
- mephitic cloud
- flame tongue
- bolt of magma - I thought a bolt spell would be good and also something that does damage to fire resistant monsters, but fireball is not bad for hitting something behind something else, and IMB is good for fire resistors. But maybe I should use it more.
- Throw frost - again, for fire resistors, but it's a low damage spell, my power with it is not as high as Throw Flame, and IMB maybe covers this off better.


With Sp apts for Conj and Fire magic, and food issues, I'm wondering if going for fire storm is a good idea. I've never had it before. So I'm thinking it may be good to spread my magic training out somewhat, but by how much?

Currently my workhorse spells are:
Damage:
- Throw flame - for orcs and other dungeon trash, though I'm wondering if with the repeated castings needed sometimes fireball isn't more efficient anyway.
- IMB - for fire resistant monsters and tougher stuff or things I want to take out quick like Orc Priests or floating eyes
- Inner flame - just nice.
- Fireball - for crowds, and tougher monsters
- Sticky flame - Not using it as much anymore because Fireball + Inner flame does a pretty good job of bathing all kinds of monsters in flame, but I still use it a bit.

Defence:
- Repel Missiles
- Shroud of Golubria
- Control teleport (in case I need to blink away - hasn't happened yet but may save my live sometime)
- Blink
- Summon butterflies - if I'm getting pounded by missiles
- Conjure flame - sometimes to block a corridor, cause damage to things that walk into it, or to create steam for cover
- Confuse - now that I've got this (and meph cloud), I find it better than Sputterflies for neutralizing Centaurs and such.

So - what spells should I ditch?

I'm worshipping vehumet and I think I've got all the books from him now. Item wise, it's been very poor, My best finds apart from spellbooks are an artefact ring (MP+9, Dex-5 Int+2), a dagger of protection and an elven cloak.

[MyOtheHedgeFox]

Shroud, I believe: since you are controlling a Spriggan, keeping distance should be no problem -- especially since you have an escape spell like Blink.

Deep down in the Dungeons, people say, monsters become more scary, and, as a consequence, harder to scare.

You might ditch Flame Tongue for Throw Flame -- OR vice versa! I think I once heard KoboldLord or Minmay saying that Fire Tongue sometimes hits as hard as Throw Flame.

[BlackSheep]

Do you find yourself in melee often? That's the only time Shroud is going to help you. Conjure Flame goes well with your theme since you're training Fire already, but its main purpose is keeping things at a distance which Spriggans can do with their feet. Inner Flame is cute, and leverages your good Hexes aptitude, but once you've got Fireball with lower cost and extended range, it's superfluous. IMB should be sufficient for killing fire resistant things, do you really need Throw Frost too?

Repel Missiles is great for almost everyone, as is Summon Butterflies. Project Noise I've heard can trivialize certain set layouts like Tomb and Ziggurats, but beyond that it's very niche-y. Even on a SpEn, I don't bother with Cause Fear. If it can hit you while you're running away, it can hit you while it's running away. Blink is great for the low investment cost. Control Teleport + Blink is a poor man's controlled blink... the difficulty being the extra turn spent getting cTele up. Usually when I find myself in a situation where I need a controlled blink, I need it now. It takes discipline to recognize those situations a turn ahead. Plus, the most dangerous situations are often on -cTele levels where that trick doesn't work.

[danr]

I use shroud because sticky flame requires you to stand next to your target for a turn. But I'm not using sticky flame that much anymore.

I don't use Conj Flame as a barrier much - but it is great for things like undead and orc knights that will happily plow through it and take damage, esp. if I can confuse them and leave them wandering through a corridor of flame. And also the smoke screen from using it on water has been helpful a number of times.

[danr]

Re: needing foresight for CTele to be useful in a panic: I've got a macro set up to cast Shroud + RMsl + CTele. I run those if I anticipate a tough fight. It provides a bit more wiggle room if I get a case of teh stupid.

No one's commented on Bolt of Magma. I just realized that with Vehumet's spell cost reduction, it's the same MP cost as IMB, with the bonus of being able to damage a row of monsters.

[nago]

Without a dump is difficult to give precise advices. Anyway:
Damage suffered influences the probability of your shroud being destroyed. As spriggan you probably have ridiculously low AC , which means a little reduction to damage and that the few attacks pass through your amazing EV will break the shroud most of the times. In other words, I wouldn't bother to cast and keep it memorized as sp. If you use it only to cast sticky flames, simply don't use this tactic against monsters who can one-shot you - you have plenty of other ways to deal with them.
I would forget bolt of magma too, if you can cast bolt of fire reliably: before extended there are very few pack of enemies immune to fire - in almost any situation bolt of fire is far superior to magma.
While it's true that with Vehumet's bolt of magma costs only 4 mp, it can deal only 45% irresistible damage, so IMB probably is still better: bolt of magma deals, according to the wiki (I hope it's true) 4d(15 + power*3/5), and max power with a 3 schools spells is difficult to obtain. Considering IMB deals 2d28, the latter probably does more damage against fire resistant enemies most of the times.

Throw frost can be forgot too: IMB is very good and totally irresistible - you have already a better alternative against fire resistant enemies weak/medium enemies.
In base of the dungeon's deep you've reached throw flame could forgot too: only the weakest enemies can killed by a single cast of this spell - which means if you have imb hungerless, it is more efficient to cast, and you can happily forget the former.

As said, enemies's HD and MR generally increases along dungeon deep: this means you'll have to train hexes if you want to keep effective cause fear and confuse. I don't know how far they can be used, but considering that you probably aren't a stabber, and there are other ways to have the best hexes' spell (invis) I wouldn't waste too much experience on that skill. On the other hand, Mephitic cloud's resistance checks HD, which: I believe it may be useful till Vault, where there are potentially dangerous enemies with relative low HD (for example centaurs). At deeper floors all (dangerous) enemies have too high HD to bother to cast it.

edit: about the macro: as I said shroud isn't really good for a mage Sp - you shouldn't be in melee in any case, and even in that situation the spell isn't really useful to you - , Deflect missiles is useful only against some kind of enemies, and as sp usually walking away is better than semi-controlled blink, at least if you are well-positioned.
On the other hand, you need three turns and 8 mp to cast those three spell: if done in a critical situation it's a good solution to swiftly die, or, if casted before a fight against opponents aware of you, it's a good way to waste turns and a precious resource (mp), giving enemies more change to damage you and having less way to kill them.
Seriously, I believe the best thing it does it's to make normal fight tougher and tough fight potential deadly - it's far better that you choose every time what spell you really need to cast. You should only cast c-tele before a fight, if you really think you could do something stupid.

[CommanderC]

Great post, nago. I have updated the wiki page for Bolt of Magma.

I have done some calculations and I got this result: Against a monster immune to fire, Bolt of Magma @160 spellpower deals the same amount of damage that IMB @100 spellpower (max spellpower is 100). In this calculation, I used the old version of IMB (in trunk the damage of IMB is even lower, I think). Not a replacement for IMB, although I must that monsters immune to fire aren't too common either.

[Deimos]

Do note that a max-power IMB in trunk explodes into square AoE damage, which is usually better then doing damage in a line, so I feel IMB is still better for fire immunes even in Trunk.

[nago]

Great post, nago. I have updated the wiki page for Bolt of Magma.

I have done some calculations and I got this result: Against a monster immune to fire, Bolt of Magma @160 spellpower deals the same amount of damage that IMB @100 spellpower (max spellpower is 100). In this calculation, I used the old version of IMB (in trunk the damage of IMB is even lower, I think). Not a replacement for IMB, although I must that monsters immune to fire aren't too common either.

Thanks!
Actually, according to the bot, imb in trunk deals 2d22 and it has a change to explode in inverse proportion to distance. I don't think I'll like this change, I don't like things which explode on my face

[galehar]

I don't like things which explode on my face

The new IMB never does.

[danr]

Thanks for all the advice. I'm ditching Magma, cause fear and throw frost, and maybe some others yet.

Now, what other spells to go for?

- Is Fire Storm worth pursuing as a Spriggan, given aptitudes and hunger issues?
- Is Ring of Fire as awesome as it sounds?
- Is Delayed Fireball useful?

[nago]

elayed fireball is a good to spell to have with Vehumet: without any guaranteed (and cheap, as sp) way to channel, a delayed fireball is a neat panic button if you're out of mp, also because you could get some more mp killing enemies with that spell.

[cerebovssquire]

- Is Fire Storm worth pursuing as a Spriggan, given aptitudes and hunger issues?
- Is Ring of Fire as awesome as it sounds?
- Is Delayed Fireball useful?

1) No, and definitely not before extended at any rate.
2) Not really... it sounds more awesome than it is. Not that it's bad, it's still pretty good, and you have +4 charms, so might as well get it. Despite rC--, it's actually good against ice attackers at ranged, such as ice dragons or frost giants, because their bolts can't pass through clouds of flame easily.
3) Absolutely. One instant fireball for 0 MP and 0 hunger cost in the fight itself, using only 2 spell slots if you have Fireball memorised, is awesome.

[JFunk]

- Is Ring of Fire as awesome as it sounds?

I'm going to offer a counterpoint strongly in favor of ring of fire. It has tremendous destructive power and great synergy with spriggans because their extra speed allows them to lay down more fire clouds per game turn then slower characters, and spriggans are master kiters. It gives your character a whole different feel around late midgame and into endgame. It's dungeon bug repellant. All kinds of nuisance monsters get incinerated just by getting somewhere near the scene of your battles. The fire spell power boost is also not to be underestimated, particularly since it offers a recast bonus on ring of fire itself. It can be annoying with allies, of course, but if you choose to summon elementals, (a powerful and IMO underused ability), it provides raw materials for fire elementals, who will also fill up areas with flame clouds (though fire elementals are pretty fragile). It also trivializes fire clouds, of course, which is just a nice convenience and added bonus. Plus it's just awesome. Try it out, and if you don't feel naked without it after a couple levels, dump it.