Best build for nuking everything in sight?

[blueeyedlion]

I am basically looking for the magic equivalent of a MiBe. I'm guessing I'll be using a deep elf of Vehumet, but which class?

[cerebovssquire]

FE, fireball + Vehumet is ridiculous and you get Fire Storm very quickly.

[Blade]

for the record, basically any FE of vehumet is the magic equivalent of a MiBe.

[blueeyedlion]

How do I deal with early crimson imps?

[Jabberwocky]

Park them on a upper level.

[XuaXua]

High Evocations plus a rod that uses ice storm.

[ddubois]

Why would anyone pick Fire Elementaliast over Wizard? The starting spellbook of wizard seems so much more powerful, with a plethora of great suvivability options. By the time you need something better than meph cloud and magic dart to kill things, youll have find some spellbook with a ranodm level3-6 Conj, or be gifted one shortly. Is fireball that much better than random mid-tier Conj?

[KoboldLord]

Why would anyone pick Fire Elementaliast over Wizard?

Wizards don't start with Sticky Flame. Kills everything. EVERYTHING. Death yak packs and orc knights are demoted to being trivial threats, even if they appear earlier than normal. A species with good aptitudes can get it online by D3, and there aren't too many early-game threats that can cope with it at all.

The starting spellbook of wizard seems so much more powerful, with a plethora of great suvivability options. By the time you need something better than meph cloud and magic dart to kill things, youll have find some spellbook with a ranodm level3-6 Conj, or be gifted one shortly. Is fireball that much better than random mid-tier Conj?

Fireball is a solid mid-tier conjuration, but ultimately an early conjuration caster cares less about getting the best mid-tier conjuration than getting absolutely any mid-tier conjuration as quickly as possible. It is technically possible to clear out orc sorcerors or death yak packs with the wizard's starting spellbook, but clearing Lair and Orc that way is tedious enough to make grown gamers weep.

That's not to say that the wizard book isn't a good one. It totally is, and it is quite possibly better than the fire elementalist book. But fire elementalists have a very powerful book that plays in a very simple and reliable manner. Not much can go wrong if you're reasonably careful with it, even if you're not the kind of player that can streak wins on a whim.

[tcjsavannah]

Fireball as AOE doesn't miss. You can miss with IMB, throw flame/frost, venom bolt, etc. But AOE like fireball never misses and that's key early on as you want every spell you sling to count.

[Deimos]

After playing many DECjs, I have to say conjurers are a lot more like the magic equivalent of Be's. You aren't much concerned about enemy resists, you can use the same couple tools throughout most of the game, and Orb of Destruction = Berserk in many ways, with its ability to shred just about any single target in a handful of turns.

FE is similar too with the BURN EVERYTHING type gameplay. I just feel like Conjurers are a little more so.

[Blade]

Why would anyone pick Fire Elementaliast over Wizard?

first: flame tongue + conjure flame is about as effective as magic dart + meph (except with ranged attackers and, to some extent, fast monsters) and comes online much sooner.
second: sticky flame kills everything forever
third: fireball also kills everything forever, and it has the added advantage of damaging groups. It is incredibly mp-efficient for killing packs of monsters (death yaks, blink frogs, ugly things, centaurs, yaktaurs, etc.) and remains useful throughout the entire game. With Vehumet's bonuses, you get a 4mp blast spell that takes out groups of monsters at full-LOS range and never misses. In my latest game, I even used it on a few post-endgame monsters (mostly ice fiends). Is it the best spell out there? Probably not. It is, however, an excellent primary attack spell.

The Fire Elementalist starting book has nothing but offensive spells, but its offensive spells are strong enough and versatile enough to kill virtually everything that isn't fire-resistant.

(all that said, wizards are also very strong; they don't have anywhere near the sheer offensive force of FE, though)

FE is similar too with the BURN EVERYTHING type gameplay. I just feel like Conjurers are a little more so.

Conjurer gets freezing cloud, which is one huge point in its favour. However, it has several elements to train (conj, air, ice, potentially a bit of poison) where FE only has conj and fire, and it has an unpleasant gap of not-much between magic dart/throw frost and lightning bolt, which is one of the worst mid-level spells anyway. They're strong, but I'd definitely give the edge to FE.

(by the way, IOOD is not that great and is also just as accessible to FE as it is to conjurer [arguably more so since you'll probably reach higher conj levels sooner with FE than with Cj])

[KoboldLord]

After playing many DECjs, I have to say conjurers are a lot more like the magic equivalent of Be's.

Why be a conjuror when you can be anything else following Vehumet? While it does have some good spells, the book of conjurations isn't a very well-designed starting spellbook. Your second and third spells demand investment in completely separate skills, and regardless of whether you lean harder on ice or air first you're facing the hardest section of game without anything you can reasonably strive for. You can't afford to spend any xp on anything but conjurations, ice, or air unless you get a lucky spellbook drop, but your reward for investment is seriously delayed.

I mean, technically you can zerg the early levels with sacrificial characters until one lucks out to the point where they reach the higher-level spells in the book, but I don't generally find that very satisfying. If you're looking to streak, absolutely any other dedicated caster background is going to reach Temple more reliably.

[Deimos]

You both bring up good points.

I usually just go Ice and Conjurations. Branching off into Poison is silly because of how early Meph Cloud comes online when you train Conjurations.

I personally feel that it isn't that hard of a start with Cj; I've had relatively good luck in getting them to the point of their first spellbook around Lair. Mephitic Cloud makes everything pretty easy, and then you'll quickly gain the ability to branch off into Freezing Cloud for double the cloudy fun. You'll need to be on your toes around creatures with rPois, but most stuff with rPois is easy to deal with anyway. Just spiny frogs. Ugh.

I know its not optimal; FE probably do have the upper hand with their good in-between spells, but I think Cj has more straightforward spells akin to a berserker. Throw Frost/Cloud everything early on, IMB everything through midgame, and by lategame you have the big guns like fire storm. By contrast FE's have to play around with Conjure Flame, Sticky Flame, and Inner Flame, which aren't as straightforward.

[XuaXua]

No advantages to IE?

[some12fat2move]

FE, fireball + Vehumet is ridiculous and you get Fire Storm very quickly.

That's extremely powerful and good, but doesn't nuke literally "everything in sight". You need Olgreb's Toxic Radiance or Slouch to do that. I would suggest NaVM of Chei to the OP. Now THAT would nuke everything in sight.

(admittedly, it's not exactly a magical MiBe, and probably not very practical either, but you can certainly get a kick out of 'em)

[Blade]

I know its not optimal; FE probably do have the upper hand with their good in-between spells, but I think Cj has more straightforward spells akin to a berserker. Throw Frost/Cloud everything early on, IMB everything through midgame, and by lategame you have the big guns like fire storm. By contrast FE's have to play around with Conjure Flame, Sticky Flame, and Inner Flame, which aren't as straightforward.

Um...no. Sticky Flame is incredibly straightforward, conjure flame almost as intuitive, and inner flame entirely unnecessary. You are also making really weird assumptions about what the best spells are and who can and cannot access which spells. IMB everything through midgame? First, what is stopping a FE from doing this if they felt like it? Second, why would you ever inflict that upon yourself?

FE strat: flame tongue everything. If it is potentially dangerous, conjure flame between you and it and flame tongue it to death. If it's very dangerous, sticky flame it. Later, fireball everything. There is nothing remotely complicated about this strategy.

No advantages to IE?

Freeze is excellent, Ozo's provides good defense, throw icicle is one of the best low-level spells available, and summon ice beast is simply overpowered. IE is very powerful, but it isn't as good as FE at "nuking everything on sight."

That's extremely powerful and good, but doesn't nuke literally "everything in sight". You need Olgreb's Toxic Radiance or Slouch to do that. I would suggest NaVM of Chei to the OP. Now THAT would nuke everything in sight.

OTR is utterly terrible and slouch isn't that great either (in addition to not atually being magical). Besides, you should almost never be surrounded by monsters on all sides; if you're handling things well, Fireball should pretty much be nuking everything in sight (and Fire Storm definitely qualifies).

[some12fat2move]

That's extremely powerful and good, but doesn't nuke literally "everything in sight". You need Olgreb's Toxic Radiance or Slouch to do that. I would suggest NaVM of Chei to the OP. Now THAT would nuke everything in sight.

OTR is utterly terrible and slouch isn't that great either (in addition to not atually being magical). Besides, you should almost never be surrounded by monsters on all sides; if you're handling things well, Fireball should pretty much be nuking everything in sight (and Fire Storm definitely qualifies).

I was being humorous with regard to the phrase "everything in sight" considering how sight is a mechanism in Crawl. I already mentioned it was not practical (or magical) tyvm.

[Deimos]

I know its not optimal; FE probably do have the upper hand with their good in-between spells, but I think Cj has more straightforward spells akin to a berserker. Throw Frost/Cloud everything early on, IMB everything through midgame, and by lategame you have the big guns like fire storm. By contrast FE's have to play around with Conjure Flame, Sticky Flame, and Inner Flame, which aren't as straightforward.

Um...no. Sticky Flame is incredibly straightforward, conjure flame almost as intuitive, and inner flame entirely unnecessary. You are also making really weird assumptions about what the best spells are and who can and cannot access which spells. IMB everything through midgame? First, what is stopping a FE from doing this if they felt like it? Second, why would you ever inflict that upon yourself?

Saw that coming.

Sticky Flame is not straightforward. You're a DeFE. You need to get into melee range to use the spell, and you need to know when that is appropriate. Just going around and sticky flaming everything will get you killed.

Conjure Flame has tricks to it. You need to know (or at least should) what will and what will not brave the flames.

What is wrong with IMB? It does good damage, deals it in an AoE, and the AoE will never hurt you. I had no problems annihilating everything with it.

Nothing is stopping a FE from doing this, but that isn't what I'm arguing. You're acting like I'm saying Cj is better. It is definitely not, but it is similar to the Be. Just a few straightforward tools that are rarely hindered by resists.

FE strat: flame tongue everything. If it is potentially dangerous, conjure flame between you and it and flame tongue it to death. If it's very dangerous, sticky flame it. Later, fireball everything. There is nothing remotely complicated about this strategy.

Cj strat: Throw Frost everything. If it is dangerous and isn't poison immune, use mephitic cloud.
Be strat: Tab everything. If it is dangerous and you can kill it before berserk ends, use berserk.

Which two of these three strats are most alike?

[some12fat2move]

No advantages to IE?

Ozocubu's Armour is nice, and so is Condensation Shield for 2h weapons, but I think most would agree that Fireball and Sticky Flame are better.

[crate]

If your berserker tactics are as simple as "tab everything" I suspect you probably don't win terribly often as a berserker.

The IE book is probably the best elementalist book overall but really which class you pick depends on what you want to do. All of the backgrounds in the "Mage" category are very strong.

[Deimos]

*strats to be taken with a dash of common sense

[KoboldLord]

I'm curious how your conjuror strategy manages to trivialize things that are resistant to both cold and poison, Deimos. As it is, I find that ice beasts, wight packs, other undead, and so on tend to give a starting conjuror fits. And unlike monsters with resistances against fire or electricity, cold resistance is shared by almost everything undead, and undead monsters are not exactly rare at any stage of the game. Heaven forbid your progress downward get checked by Grinder or Menkaure. Nursing a conjuror past the early game is relatively much fiddlier than doing the same with an ice or fire elementalist, simply because it has absolutely no way to deal with a whole common class of threats unless it either gets a good wand drop, finds an alternative spellbook, or works its way up to a 5th-level spell in its starting book.

Compare the ice elementalist experience. You might have to run from Grinder or the first wight pack if they show up on D3, but then you get Throw Icicle and you spam it until they die. Perhaps with brilliance up, if you happened to identify that potion already. Ice beasts work great against cold-resistant targets, too, although it takes more xp to get to them. In fact, the ice elementalist will probably make significant use of the ` key, which is like the tab key but works for casters. Go Vehumet, and you get the conjurors' starting spellbook sooner than you could possibly have Freezing Cloud online anyway, and you're like a conjuror but you had an easier early game and have a super-awesome single-target mid-level spell too.

[Deimos]

Ice Beasts are not an issue, for the most part. After all, Conjurors, unlike the Elementalists, do start with Magic Dart. That is more then enough for Ice Beasts and most of the Undead you are likely to meet. There's not too much in the way of armored undead either; I don't think Wraiths have much AC to speak of (They might, I'm not sure on this) and Wights only wear robes. Magic Dart is likely to remain effective enough to dispose of these albeit slowly.

Grinder and Menkaure are definite problems, so yes, you want to get away from those guys.

Again though, I'm not arguing that Cj is the best starting class. Yes, you're in for a much easier time if you decide to go with one of the other Elementalists, but these other classes are much further from a Berserker in gameplay in most ways. It all depends on what you find iconic about Berserkers; is is their easy early game? Their simplistic gameplay? Their methods of survival?

I, myself, find Berserkers' main trait to be their simplicity and focus on racking up damage. Therefor, I feel like a Conjuror, with it's simple spellbook and focus on doing damage, to be the best fit.

[Konebred]

FEs are one of my favorite spellcasters for how simply they play. There really isn't much in the early-mid game that has anything at all resistant to fire besides annoying ass crimps. It is the only spellcaster I will walk toward a target with. Sticky flame is such a game changer every single one of my FEs shoots for it as soon as possible. SF is awesome because you know that once you get it on something, it will fuck that target up. You save it in the beginning because it makes you really hungry and you still do it on strong targets in the mid game if they ever get next to you. You have to be right next to your target to use it, so I would say FEs are closest to Berserkers as far as their main strategy is. If you have to, you can get right up on someone and burn them to a crisp.

[danr]

I'm really enjoying my SpFE right now. I've cleared Orc and Lair and the best equipment I've found are a robe of resistance, a ring with MP+9 Int+2 Dex-5 (yes minus 5), and a dagger of protection. Despite such a meagre game lootwise I've been able to handle just about everything relatively easily.

FEs get a very versatile set of spells without having to branch into too many magic schools. The only thing early on that is fire resistant is Crimson Imps and they are more an annoyance than a threat. Once you do run into potential threats, they can be run away from as a Spriggan, but before too long you get IMB from Vehumet and then you can deal with those monsters too.

It's also pretty fun to play with the different tactics that conjure flame, sticky flame and inner flame let you do, as well as fireball. If you are clever with the combination of those spells you can turn reduce most mobs to cinders in a variety of fun and entertaining ways.

Also, while Sp don't have great Conj or Fire aptitudes, their other key aptitudes (Dodging, spellcasting, stealth) are so good that you have XP to spare for those schools

[cerebovssquire]

That's extremely powerful and good, but doesn't nuke literally "everything in sight". You need Olgreb's Toxic Radiance or Slouch to do that. I would suggest NaVM of Chei to the OP. Now THAT would nuke everything in sight.

OTR is utterly terrible and slouch isn't that great either (in addition to not atually being magical). Besides, you should almost never be surrounded by monsters on all sides; if you're handling things well, Fireball should pretty much be nuking everything in sight (and Fire Storm definitely qualifies).

I was being humorous with regard to the phrase "everything in sight" considering how sight is a mechanism in Crawl. I already mentioned it was not practical (or magical) tyvm.

"humourous" implies some degree of "hahaha"

[ldierk]

DDEE. Shatter is kill everything in sight. My last DDEE had Shatter online after doing Lair / before orc. (With help of gourmand and a staff of Wizadry).

[JFunk]

OTR is utterly terrible and slouch isn't that great either (in addition to not atually being magical). Besides, you should almost never be surrounded by monsters on all sides; if you're handling things well, Fireball should pretty much be nuking everything in sight (and Fire Storm definitely qualifies).

Utterly terrible? Oh come on, you must understand the situationality of Crawl better than that. Staff of poison + meph the doorway of a giant ogre castle on orc:4, spam OTR until even you are red poisoned even with rPois, stroll away and case a cure poison while the entire vault curls up and dies. Bet I do it with fewer turns and less mana than your fireballer. This was a mainstay of my SpVM, and it's of particular utility to a spriggan because it's an extremely deadly level 4 nuke, at a time in the game when getting level 5 and 6 spells to hungerless is a tough push. Like nearly every spell in the game, OTR can be put to absolutely amazing use in a great deal of situations under the right circumstances.

[cerebovssquire]

And unlike your VM, our fireballers don't have to run away all the time. And enjoy pulling that off on a non-Spriggan, and being killed by ogre mages which take 20 turns to die instead of 3! Also, we have actually good spells beyond level 6. And our conjurations are way better than yours, with the exception of Poison Arrow. Really, my first thought upon reading that post was "extremely deadly level 4 nuke... hm... must be Sticky Flame". Also, who cares about MP if you go Vehumet. It's not like you'll realistically run out against the Orc:4 vault.

[Deimos]

You'd have to do some neat roundup tricks to not run out of mana in some of these end-vaults.

[Moose]

For a 15-runer, which god is best for a FE? The only caster I got to the post-endgame was an IE or Vehumet, and I found that I could not take out the named pan lord with my spellset... I was trying Ice-Storm, as well as Orb of Destruction, and I would run out of mana far before they would die. Can a FE kill all endgame threats before running out of mana, or do they have to resort to stealing the runes without killing the bosses?

[omegasean]

naga wizards are quite strong.

[KoboldLord]

For a 15-runer, which god is best for a FE?

Vehumet or Kiku, depending on whether the species in question is more suited for pure conjurations or melee hybridization. Ashenzari is excellent, too, but she's not quite as deterministic as the other two.

The only caster I got to the post-endgame was an IE or Vehumet, and I found that I could not take out the named pan lord with my spellset... I was trying Ice-Storm, as well as Orb of Destruction, and I would run out of mana far before they would die. Can a FE kill all endgame threats before running out of mana, or do they have to resort to stealing the runes without killing the bosses?

Why would you bother taking out the bosses? You don't get anything for doing so, and in fact you lose points at the end of the game if you wasted turns killing things that can be bypassed.

Anyway, yes, FE and IE are both perfectly capable of taking out all the endgame bosses. Pump Zot xp into evocations and evoke a crystal ball of energy. 15 to 20 skill is a reasonably generous amount, and totally worth the opportunity cost. Make sure you have something on-hand to deal with the risk of backlash. This includes either clarity or a spare potion of curing for confusion, Sublimation of Blood or some form of channeling for mp drain, and either a royal jelly or a spare potion of restore abilities for int drain. If you religiously evoke your crystal ball after every two Fire Storms, rather than blowing your entire mp bar, you'll only rarely have to escape and restart a fight due to crystal ball backlash.

[cursednobleman]

The two times I finished zot:5 with a storm build, I was a deep elf wizard and a demonspawn venom mage.

With a wizard, you tend to fight rather strangely until you get the first book, this results in most fights being won with conjure flame and meph cloud along with a nice corridor. This can be difficult and take some practice, but its not too difficult to kill yak hordes and actually rather easy to kill hydras with. Around shoals he got firestorm semi-castable, then pretty much everything died.

The venom mage was rather unusual in that he started with typical poison stuff, but midgame, he got antennae and ice cloud which let him clear areas around walls and see invisible. Endgame he used poison arrow and ice cloud to kill stuff.