Non-caster advice

[donblas]

While I feel somewhat comfortable with Cj based casters (DEFE, DEWz and the like), I'd like to try the other end of the spectrum, a melee fighter. However, I'm having major trouble making it to the lair, which is normally pretty doable for me as a caster. Here's roughly what I'm doing:

Minotaur / Fighter or Minotaur / Berserker
Taking Axe or Trident
Turning off all skils but weapon (focus), fighting, and sometimes shields.
Working on getting weapon to around 14 asap to reduce weapon speed reduction.
Pickup the heaviest armor I find (plate if possible) for the GDR.

I try to play carefully, but get rocked by squads of orcs (which are not normally problems for my casters). The last few deaths have been due to priests smiting me or casters going invisible and chasing me down. It seems that hitting in the directory of a invisible creature is much worse than casting a blast towards something invisible.

Can somebody please give me some advice? Is my initial skill selection wrong? Bad luck? Poor play? I figured Minotaur/melee was "the easiest" melee to get into.

EDIT: What about unarmed combat. With the horns counterattack, should one invest in that at all?

[Blade]

Your skill selection sounds doable; my style is usually "weapon only until min delay or 20 skill."

It sounds like you aren't running enough, frankly. Orc wizards are very, very dangerous, but speed 10. Orc priests are moderately dangerous, but also speed 10. Lure monsters around corners, throw javelins/needles/etc. to soften them up...melee characters are much more dependent on terrain/items than ranged.

[cerebovssquire]

At 2-3 skill a shield is only going to hurt you; and frankly polearms and axes are better two-handed on a Mi of Trog/Okawaru so just drop it immediately.
(this doesn't necessarily mean you should do this with a buckler on Gl)
If you are going Okawaru on Fi/Gl remember that you should use Heroism in basically any fight that could be even moderately threatening if it goes badly. It's a very cheap ability with no tactical downsides.
Don't invest on UC, your counter-attack does not depend on that, but stats.
Fighting is almost entirely useless that early on, compared to weapon skill. Therefore I agree with Blade about the weapon only bit (and the rest).

[crate]

IMO Hill Orc is easier since you level up faster so you will have more HP.

[cerebovssquire]

IMO Hill Orc is easier since you level up faster so you will have more HP.

Aux attacks and retaliation are really, really good on early D levels. I always have an easier time with Mi (maybe this is also due to faulty play on my part).

[mageykun]

Edit: Holy crappits, I got ninja-ed by like four people!

Minos are hands down unstoppable melee machines. Great apps, great hp, and an automatic counter.

You're basically right with the skills. Get weapon to minimum delay, after that work on getting max fighting, while pumping armour and evasion and shields (optional). Work in 10 lvls of traps and doors at some point. If you go Oka rather than Trog, 10 invocations. Maybe diverge a little into evocations if you're lucky enough to find a good rod, or if you get any randarts with good evocable properties.

Personally, I found Oka easier to work this build with than Trog. Berserk's costs are problematic sometimes, and runs out pretty quick, and you only need so many weapon gifts (Brothers in arms are awesome, though). On the other hand, heroism is fantastic right up until you've maxed all your relevant skills, finesse is guaranteed melee haste, and he eventually gives you all the equips you want. Both should be doable, though.

The real trick to melee minos is knowing that evasion and Dex work. Basically, put enough points into str to wear the heaviest armour you want (plate works fine, though you can go heavier if you want), and then dump the rest into dex (if you're comfortable with plate actually, you can put everything in Dex, right away). This can give you evasion and shields as almost as good as your AC for an unbelievable defense. Hopefully you find randarts to give you enough int to avoid stat death- but I kinda feel it's not worth putting points into to avoid. Just avoid int draining attacks and don't wear ID artefacts till it's safe (or take preventative measures, like keeping a pot of brilliance on hand).

Personally, I favor a shield to 2 handed stuff, but they both work, and it kinda depends on which weapon type you go with (Axes should pretty much always 2h) and what you find and when you find it. Be willing be be flexible here early on. You can also work pretty much any weapon type you want, though polearms have an edge with reaching.

[TehDruid]

Even though I love Hill Orcs since I had my first win with a HOFi, especially after they got retaliation, Minos are more powerful than Hill Orcs in melee, hands down. Better apts, the counter attack after you dodge, which remains relevant all throughout the game... Hill Orcs have one of the three highest Invocations scores in the game, so they're more suited to gods that require intensive Invocations training and Trog isn't one of those. Also Hill Orc INT and mana growth got buffed since 0.10 and they are more suited to branching into spellcasting much more easily than Minotaurs. Still, they make great berserkers, of course.

[crate]

IMO Hill Orc is easier since you level up faster so you will have more HP.

Aux attacks and retaliation are really, really good on early D levels. I always have an easier time with Mi (maybe this is also due to faulty play on my part).

More HP is really, really good against OOD centaurs and D:2 orc wizards and D:3 orc priests. It goes both ways. Mi is definitely also very strong.

[dk]

Take Naga Gladiator with a trident. Disable all skills but Polearms until you have some piety with Chei (time to start training invocation). Press 'o' and TAB rapidly until you are in Lair. Works most of the time


Just joking. After getting my first win with an SpVM i never thought i would be able with a melee-based char. But keep trying!

[omegasean]

Try Merfolk berserker or gladiator.

train tridents until about six then branch into dodging, and then fighting. equip a trident when you find one, and tab utilizing auto-reach.

very powerful build, if berserker pump dex if gladiator you can pump int if you want to cast eventually, or else dex.

[TehDruid]

Try Merfolk berserker or gladiator.
train tridents until about six then branch into dodging, and then fighting. equip a trident when you find one, and tab utilizing auto-reach.

As I'm sure most experienced players around are going to tell you, telling people to raise polearms on this character just to lvl 6 and get more dodging and fighting is pretty much bad advice. Fighting has been nerfed immensely since a certain update and its benefits are very weak at lower character levels. Also, some points of EV aren't really gonna save you when your attack speed is slow (especially against enemies that ignore your EV) You want to focus on as much weapon skill as you need (that is, until your current weapon reaches minimum delay) on a MfBe and any melee, for that matter. After you hit min delay, it's time to turn the skill off for the rest of a 3-rune run, unless you get a better weapon that requires more skill to get to min delay and then focus on fighting/dodging/armour. That +4 apt on polearms make this quite easy. Once I had a 27 Polearms skill MfBe by the time I finished Lair and a Vampiric Bardiche by Trog. Then I got overconfident and died to a bunch of Orcs in Orc:1 while holding TAB.

[Southpaw]

Try Merfolk berserker or gladiator.
train tridents until about six then branch into dodging, and then fighting. equip a trident when you find one, and tab utilizing auto-reach.

As I'm sure most experienced players around are going to tell you, telling people to raise polearms on this character just to lvl 6 and get more dodging and fighting is pretty much bad advice. Fighting has been nerfed immensely since a certain update and its benefits are very weak at lower character levels. Also, some points of EV aren't really gonna save you when your attack speed is slow (especially against enemies that ignore your EV) You want to focus on as much weapon skill as you need (that is, until your current weapon reaches minimum delay) on a MfBe and any melee, for that matter. After you hit min delay, it's time to turn the skill off for the rest of a 3-rune run, unless you get a better weapon that requires more skill to get to min delay and then focus on fighting/dodging/armour. That +4 apt on polearms make this quite easy. Once I had a 27 Polearms skill MfBe by the time I finished Lair and a Vampiric Bardiche by Trog. Then I got overconfident and died to a bunch of Orcs in Orc:1 while holding TAB.

I didn't know it was possible to die to Orc:1 after clearing Lair...

[crate]

Sure, you can get an orc:1 orc sorcerer who paralyses you and then you die.

[omegasean]

i was suggesting raising polearms to lvl 6 and then training polearms and dodging together. and eventually raising fighting.

Even at skill level six your attack speed will be good with a spear, and if you raise it a little more you can have fast speed with a trident.

if you want to pump polearms only thats fine, but i prefer to raise other skills as well.

AlsoI have won with this combo, and that's before auto-reaching.

I forgot to mention shields -getting shields to five for bucklers is great, and something you can't do if you only raise polearms until post lair...

And finally you do raise a good point - the priority of a melee fighter should be his weapon skill. But I don't think you need to raise it to lvl 27 before you start branching out.

[TehDruid]

Oh no, I only got it to 26 for the bardiche in that specific instance and said "well, 27 is close". Normally 14 polearms is enough (for demon trident/trishula, that's your best options if you're not going for 2-handed). I never raise weapon skill past the point I reach minimum delay, I assure you. I just like to prioritise it and then come back to it when I feel I'm good in terms of survivalability.

[thriftshopmusketeer]

I've played more MiBe than I'd really like to admit. I usually go heavy armour, high damage, which makes the character so simple it's practically baby mode. Every stat point to STR, with only 3 core skills--Fighting, Axes, and Armour. Ignore Armour till axes is around 13-15 (min delay for most axes you'll find early on) then put some into Armour so you can wear the heaviest armor you can find without problems. Get Piety to ** ASAP, to prevent embarrassing and infuriating deaths to poison early on. Ignore fighting until XL 10 or so, when it really starts to give bigger bonuses. If you want a ranged options, evocation+wants/rods is your best bet. DON'T get any launcer skill past 7.9, or Trog will inundate you with limitless stacks of ammo, clogging your inventory and draining your piety. This sounds not bad, if you want to go full ranged, but otherwise it weakens your summons (A berserk stone giant can take out almost anything--high piety is WORTH IT) and prevents you from EVER getting another weapon gift.

[XuaXua]

DON'T get any launcer skill past 7.9, or Trog will inundate you with limitless stacks of ammo

I believe it's to not get TOTAL of all launcher skills past 7.9 .

[moocowmoocow]

Run a lot, throw lots of stuff. Don't be stingy with the consumables. If you can stay alive long enough to get your skills up + decent equipment, then the game can turn into a zzzz tab fest.

[XuaXua]

Also, the Merfolk Berserker (or Gladiator and find a Trog altar) with a Trident and Buckler / Shield works QUITE well. Find a demon trident; eventually switch to TSO and clear the extended endgame with your blessed trishula.

[Deimos]

With my MiFi, I actually didn't focus my weapon skill. I kept Maces&Flails, Armour, and Shield right away. M&F went off at 14, Armour and Shields never went off. I didn't have the offensive ability you might expect, but I feel like Minos are already great at offense regardless of whether they get mindelay up right away or not. Hell, they can 1-shot a D:1 Gnoll. Since they already have great early offense because of their counter, I usually get defenses online ASAP. Having good SH and AC early on in the game makes you feel amazing.

I usually spam Int, but honestly a 3-rune-win wont need it. I dont think I had more then 1 or 2 points of int drained all game. Go with Dex unless you need the Str for a CPM or something.

I went with maces and flails simply because a early whip of electrocution can get you very far. Also, demon whips are my favorite melee weapon in the game. I honestly cant see going with axes or polearms because of how much I adore shields.

Well, thats what I did. I'm not sure if thats really the "best" way, but it made me feel really powerful and carried me to a win.

[galehar]

DON'T get any launcer skill past 7.9, or Trog will inundate you with limitless stacks of ammo

I believe it's to not get TOTAL of all launcher skills past 7.9 .

Where did you get that? It's wrong.

[XuaXua]

DON'T get any launcer skill past 7.9, or Trog will inundate you with limitless stacks of ammo

I believe it's to not get TOTAL of all launcher skills past 7.9 .

Where did you get that? It's wrong.

That other thread where that someone else points out he has 2 throwing and then passes some margin with the other launcher skill and suddenly GIFTS. Can't recall offhand, which is why my post is qualified by "I believe...".

[Blade]

No, his point was that once a skill (say bows) reaches 8, and another (say throwing) is at 2, you will then begin to get ammo gifts at a ratio of 8 bows to 2 throwing.

[banei]

Having 7 in bows still gifts more bows than no skills in it, on average. But the ammo gifts kicks in at 8 in any specific ranged skill, which then overpowers all other gifts (very biased).

[Southpaw]

With my MiFi, I actually didn't focus my weapon skill. I kept Maces&Flails, Armour, and Shield right away. M&F went off at 14, Armour and Shields never went off. I didn't have the offensive ability you might expect, but I feel like Minos are already great at offense regardless of whether they get mindelay up right away or not. Hell, they can 1-shot a D:1 Gnoll. Since they already have great early offense because of their counter, I usually get defenses online ASAP. Having good SH and AC early on in the game makes you feel amazing.

I usually spam Int, but honestly a 3-rune-win wont need it. I dont think I had more then 1 or 2 points of int drained all game. Go with Dex unless you need the Str for a CPM or something.

I went with maces and flails simply because a early whip of electrocution can get you very far. Also, demon whips are my favorite melee weapon in the game. I honestly cant see going with axes or polearms because of how much I adore shields.

Well, thats what I did. I'm not sure if thats really the "best" way, but it made me feel really powerful and carried me to a win.

There is nothing wrong with sticking with polearms and just using a demon trident instead of going for the two handers. Starting with a trident is really powerful too.

[Stormfox]

Demon tridents also deal respectable damage without cutting off hydra heads.

[XuaXua]

There is nothing wrong with sticking with polearms and just using a demon trident

YMMV depending on deity worshiped.

[Jabberwocky]

There is nothing wrong with sticking with polearms and just using a demon trident instead of going for the two handers.

Not if you worship Zin, Ely, or TSO.

[mageykun]

TSO's fine. You just switch to a backup weapon while you clear the crypt (which you can do with pretty much anything, assuming you've already done Zot), and then bless for a trishula as soon as you hit ******.

...and if you start with TSO instead of converting to him for the endgame, it's even easier. You're pretty likely to already be at max piety by the time you find your first demon trident (and on the off chance you do find one early, you just have to wait).

[XuaXua]

TSO's fine. You just switch to a backup weapon while you clear the crypt (which you can do with pretty much anything, assuming you've already done Zot), and then bless for a trishula as soon as you hit ******.

...and if you start with TSO instead of converting to him for the endgame, it's even easier. You're pretty likely to already be at max piety by the time you find your first demon trident (and on the off chance you do find one early, you just have to wait).

Wait and throw every scroll of enchant into that sucker beforehand before the big EWIII TSO tosses on it.

[Grimm]

He didn't mean that it changes the result, he meant that using the scrolls first increases their chances of actually working, as ?EW success percentages go down as weapon enchantments go up.

[Grimm]

TIL

[XuaXua]

Yes, but it also decreases the chance of TSO's EWIII effect working. The order in which you use enchantment scrolls, or an ability that includes the effect of enchantment scrolls, doesn't matter.

It's the same EW3 as any other EW3, right?

I'd blow the EW 1's up to +5/+5 at least, then do the TSO bless to maximize the + applique.

[Blade]

Yes, but it also decreases the chance of TSO's EWIII effect working. The order in which you use enchantment scrolls, or an ability that includes the effect of enchantment scrolls, doesn't matter.

It's the same EW3 as any other EW3, right?

I'd blow the EW 1's up to +5/+5 at least, then do the TSO bless to maximize the + applique.

ap·pli·qué [ap-li-key]
1.ornamentation, as a cutout design, that is sewn on to or otherwise applied to a piece of material.
2.work so formed.
3.a decorative feature, as a sconce, applied to a surface.

Also, what part of "THE ENCHANT ORDER DOESN'T FREAKING MATTER" was unclear to you?

tl;dr: please stop talking

[Southpaw]

That was probably unnecessarily hostile, Blade.

[KoboldLord]

I'm not sure what the confusion is, really. Enchant weapon scrolls and TSO's weapon blessing call the same function. TSO basically just chucks an extra couple enchant weapon scrolls at you; they have the same chance of failing as any other enchant weapon scroll even though they don't spend any time as physical items.

[Rast]

I've only won once, ever, so take this with a grain of salt.

Minotaur Gladiator, trident, turn off everything except Armour until I find my first bow. Turn off Armour and raise Bows to 7.9, then turn Bows off until 6 star piety. Raise Dex at every level.

After level 12 or so you can raise Fighting a little for the HP.