Complete NaMo of Chei character guide


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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Thursday, 22nd March 2012, 07:32

Complete NaMo of Chei character guide

I'm working on an in depth NaMo of Cheibriados guide. Eventually I'll post it in the wiki, but I wanted to get feedback/tweak it here first. Anything that is unclear, could be improved, or seems to be missing, please let me know. It is long because it's intended to be comphrensive :) If I'm totally wrong about something please clue me in!


I have moved the guide to the wiki, so this post had an older version which is now somewhat outdated, so I will simply link to the wiki page:

http://crawl.chaosforge.org/index.php?t ... Monk_guide
Last edited by tasonir on Friday, 23rd March 2012, 22:16, edited 10 times in total.

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Post Thursday, 22nd March 2012, 08:19

Re: Complete NaMo of Chei character guide

I like the write-up so far, but just want to toss in a couple of things:

making sure show_game_turns and show_gold_turns are set to true in your init.txt file are very useful for a worshiper of Chei, as they will show you what turn you are on (including what "tenth" of a turn you are on - i.e. Turn: 100.3) and how long your last action took to complete in number of turns (i.e. Turn: 100.3 (2.0) means you are currently on turn 100.3 and your last action took 2.0 turns to complete). These are really useful things to know for any character, but especially for one who cares so much about how fast things are going.

Potions of Slowing (or a wand of slowing, cast on yourself) will make Slouch deal more damage, and so may be worth quaffing if you know you're going to be slouching a lot in a moment (such as before walking into "the main room" on orc:4) and also hasting an enemy will cause them to take significantly more damage when you slouch - which is really useful against uniques and the like.

dk

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Post Thursday, 22nd March 2012, 08:25

Re: Complete NaMo of Chei character guide

Note that Nagas got nerfed in 0.11 (trunk). Constriction is avaiable not until reaching XL:13, so the early game is a lot harder for them than in 0.10.

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Post Thursday, 22nd March 2012, 09:42

Re: Complete NaMo of Chei character guide

I was expecting constriction to take some sort of hit, but I rather like that nerf - it will remain a powerful attack in the later game and they'll still be just as viable. A bit harder to start, but we'll manage :)

I'll add the bit about showing game turns, thanks southpaw.
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Post Thursday, 22nd March 2012, 10:53

Re: Complete NaMo of Chei character guide

tasonir wrote:A bit harder to start...

Try way, way harder... :| Have you tried a melee non-transmuter Naga before constriction was implemented? It's the combos I've died to a Kobold/(hob)goblin the most times on D:1. Additionally gnolls are very dangerous now since they often come with reaching... Also, try overpowering Sigmund in melee now on XL:3 or 4... 13 lvl means you've cleared most if not all of Lair, and you will notice your death count increasing to a much, much higher rate than it used to be till you reach that lvl at least. I guess if you get to temple and worship Chei things can probably take a turn for the better once you get TD & Slouch reliably castable and powerful. Still, having to raise Invocations is another bump on the road since your apts aren't that great for any of your main skills and apts are pretty important in this early part of the game, where XP is scarce. You'll find yourself having to rely on Slouch much more (thus draining piety a lot more) since constriction TABbing won't take care of things that used to get trivialised by it.

Oh well! I'm just ranting again. :P
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Post Thursday, 22nd March 2012, 12:05

Re: Complete NaMo of Chei character guide

Since unarmed apparently does nothing for constriction, I am more likely to go the shield + trident route with a naga for the added innate reaching and optional branding.
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Post Thursday, 22nd March 2012, 12:46

Re: Complete NaMo of Chei character guide

Aye, this build works pretty well with minimal changes if you want to play a naga gladiator or fighter. The thing about tridents that bothers me is whenever you reach to attack, you can't constrict. Need to be within melee range, which makes me feel like I'm wasting reaching. But that's just a personal preference, it's certainly still viable :)

As for .11 and the lack of early constriction I'll just have to try it out...I've played monks of other races and found their damage to be enough, although it's certainly not as much of tabbing without constriction...

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Post Thursday, 22nd March 2012, 13:15

Re: Complete NaMo of Chei character guide

I'am suprise that you don't raise stealth. It doesn't cost much with the +5 aptitude, and it helps to survives.
It is a really nice addition to step from time as you have better chance monsters won't notice you after you came back
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Post Thursday, 22nd March 2012, 13:25

Re: Complete NaMo of Chei character guide

Here's my NaMo of Chei guide: "no"
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Post Thursday, 22nd March 2012, 13:47

Re: Complete NaMo of Chei character guide

Chei worshippers should pretty much only raise int. You never need more STR than base+15 ever in any circumstance at all ever, and DEX gives decreasing returns above 24. Other than that, more solid than most guides I've seen. Not bad.
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Post Thursday, 22nd March 2012, 15:09

Re: Complete NaMo of Chei character guide

tasonir wrote:Aye, this build works pretty well with minimal changes if you want to play a naga gladiator or fighter. The thing about tridents that bothers me is whenever you reach to attack, you can't constrict. Need to be within melee range, which makes me feel like I'm wasting reaching.


An attack to reach is the same as an attack adjacent.
With reaching, you get one extra fork hit in before whatever gets to you becomes constricted AND forked.
Otherwise, you need a ranged attack (discounting poison spit).

I suggest you break down your second paragraph into points/list. I think it lets you get the information across better.
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Post Thursday, 22nd March 2012, 15:44

Re: Complete NaMo of Chei character guide

Also, I tend to pick Naga Gladiators and select Trident; Nagas build up piety quickly with Chei, so while the extra Monk boost to piety is nice, it's not guaranteed to keep you safe till you find the altar. With Chei, attributes become negligible.
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Post Thursday, 22nd March 2012, 15:48

Re: Complete NaMo of Chei character guide

I would always go for NaGl instead of NaMo, since the trident helps alot in the early game. Later you will propably use a demon trident, which is also very strong. Don't worry about the Monks piety boost, since with a Naga you aquire piety very fast while worshipping Chei.

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Post Thursday, 22nd March 2012, 17:38

Re: Complete NaMo of Chei character guide

tasonir wrote:Slouch: ... The cost of 8 piety is often regained immediately if you kill multiple targets in such a case.


I haven't noticed this. Almost every time I use Slouch, Chei starts reducing the support of my attributes (every 10 piety is -1 aptitude). I've used 3-4 Slouches at the Dire Elephant Lair ending and then not had enough piety for anymore, resulting in my death because I had no other means of escape. The only time using Slouch will give no net piety change is probably the Vaults:8 opening party (for which Slouch is absolutely fantastic)
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Post Thursday, 22nd March 2012, 19:16

Re: Complete NaMo of Chei character guide

A base piety cost of 8 actually means it costs 8-12 piety - you have to kill a pretty large number of enemies in one go to regain that, although it certainly is possible in killer bee vaults, for example. You're unlikely to break even when slouching the V:8 ambush, though.

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Post Thursday, 22nd March 2012, 22:02

Re: Complete NaMo of Chei character guide

Yeah - to break exactly even on piety you're looking at slouching 15+ bees in a bee vault. Most of the time you use it 2-3 times to slouch 10+ tougher enemies you just get one free and lose the 16 piety on the other two. It's certainly not free in general, but it is certainly worth spamming when needed.

Maybe I'll add a stealth optional notice, but I've found it to just be bothersome - you can't sneak up on mobs because you're terribly slow, and so they just have a tendancy to "blink" around you moving 3-4 tiles randomly. You end up having to shout in each room just to get them to come to you. It might be optimal play, it's just bothersome a lot of the time.

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Post Thursday, 22nd March 2012, 22:14

Re: Complete NaMo of Chei character guide

Any particular reason not to go for NaTM instead of Monk? I haven't played it in .10, so the loss of Evaporate may have hurt more than I imagine but having easy access to blade hands makes the midgame into a total pushover (and it isn't like you need to put a lot of XP into the magic skills to make it castable what with the INT boost). Pretty sure that DEX is what you want to put your skillpoints in; STR isn't that usedul and INT is somewhat unnecessary since you don't need to raise spellcasting by a lot to negate hunger until Lichform anyhow.

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Post Thursday, 22nd March 2012, 22:18

Re: Complete NaMo of Chei character guide

Blade wrote:Chei worshippers should pretty much only raise int. You never need more STR than base+15 ever in any circumstance at all ever, and DEX gives decreasing returns above 24. Other than that, more solid than most guides I've seen. Not bad.


Alright I guess I'll stop recommending dex ;)
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Post Thursday, 22nd March 2012, 22:36

Re: Complete NaMo of Chei character guide

Infinitum wrote:Any particular reason not to go for NaTM instead of Monk? I haven't played it in .10, so the loss of Evaporate may have hurt more than I imagine but having easy access to blade hands makes the midgame into a total pushover (and it isn't like you need to put a lot of XP into the magic skills to make it castable what with the INT boost). Pretty sure that DEX is what you want to put your skillpoints in; STR isn't that usedul and INT is somewhat unnecessary since you don't need to raise spellcasting by a lot to negate hunger until Lichform anyhow.



I do think the easiest choice is NaTr, you are better prepared with those spells and anyway the ** piety of the Mo don't make all that much difference. A Na of chei gain piety very fast. I once had an amulet of faith, it was a slouch party!

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Post Friday, 23rd March 2012, 00:26

Re: Complete NaMo of Chei character guide

Alright, I've tried to incorperate all of the feedback, or at least all of the feedback I remembered! ;)

Added some new sections, did some cleanup. I'll leave it up for a day or two before wikifying it, maybe give it a once over again. Any sections that feel redundant? Don't want to repeat myself too much :)

I'm sure there's at least a couple good spells I've left off the spell list because I largely just based it on what my current monk has...What should I add?

Any other tips I can add for the "get ranged mobs closer to you" section?

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Post Friday, 23rd March 2012, 03:39

Re: Complete NaMo of Chei character guide

For power gamers other backgrounds might be stronger for Chei. Especially with Naga constriction getting nerfed in trunk. Wi or Gl have worked for me. IE should as well but I haven't had success. NaMo seem like they should be strong but I have had trouble with them. I think it's because 27 UC + 15 SH is a lot of skill points. NaTr of Chei really haven't worked for me. Tr might be better without shields, relying instead on blade hands.

St should be strong, too. Evap is always amazing, but it's extra amazing when you can't move. Fog fog fog. Passwall + dig like should be strong with Chei as well. Likewise, Blink + cTele means that Wa might be a strong start. I've never started with these backgrounds but I have found these spells strong with Nagas of Chei.

The added ** piety is not very helpful, as Nagas get piety so quickly. But this is a NaMo of Chei guide, not a Na of Chei guide....

I would not recommend raising Str. Dex will give you EV. Int will give you more spell power. Str give slightly more damage with weapons and slightly more with transformations. (But Dex is better with blade hands, which I would consider to be the best transformation for a Chei worshiper.) Int or Dex certainly would be stronger if you use a weapon. Decreasing returns to Dex above 24 doesn't mean no returns. I think that Str on UC-based Chei worshiper would only affect shields. (And why are you using shields when you have blade hands?)

I'd advocate for stealth. When I play Nagas it's usually my highest skill, up to 20 or so. I think it's even more important with Chei. FWIW, I don't commonly use Slouch. I think it's because stealth helps avoid situations where you might have to use slouch. If you have high stealth, then that scary hill giant on level 8 will dance around you and then wander off. No need to spend 16-24 piety on it.

General advice: it's rare that shouting is a good idea. Throw a rock or dart (or javelin!), spit poison, cast magic dart, whatnot. Alert one monster so it charges. Shouting alerts many monsters.

Re "get ranged mobs closer to you", stealth is the best way -- avoid them. Or back around a corner and cast some spell (or yell, I guess). Get repel missiles.

Even in heavier armour, stealth works for Nagas. First, it's a cheap skill (less XP per level, at least this used to be the case). Second, it's way cheaper for Nagas. Third, Chei's Dex bonus provides an additional 45 stealth, nearly offsetting the EVP of fire/ice/pearl dragon armour.

You might also note in the guide that one should watch out for the occasional "good" player leaving snarky comments. I'm not sure what the snark is about - Chei is by no means a bad choice for Nagas that aren't focused on spellcasting. And Chei can be really really interesting to play. A god that says "You're not allowed to move" makes for interesting and fun choices. I think that's what this game is about.

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Post Friday, 23rd March 2012, 14:07

Re: Complete NaMo of Chei character guide

I'm by no means a good player but after getting better I totally get the Che "hate." I used to love Che and pick him for a lot of my players, especially my Tm. Now, I'd be hard pressed to pick him over pretty much any god.

The downsides of slow movement are not fully offset by the benefits he gives especially because one of his draws is really more a trap for newer players. The stat boost just isn't that important. When you look at things like berserk, haste, swiftness and possibly finesse depending on your god choice which all directly increase the speed at which you can kill monsters OR escape for all but finesse and compare it to step from time or slouch which both have high piety costs the downsides just start to add up. I'll freely admit I haven't tried him since they changed the "ponderize" your equipment mechanic so I'm guessing that in some ways he's better since you're not locked out of all the good randarts you find.
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Post Friday, 23rd March 2012, 15:03

Re: Complete NaMo of Chei character guide

rebthor wrote:The stat boost just isn't that important.


This is why I don't play demigods. The attractions to Chei are the abilities.
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Post Friday, 23rd March 2012, 15:38

Re: Complete NaMo of Chei character guide

I like the Naga of Chei build, not because it's strong, but because it's fun. It's a completely different playstyle then any other.

In my experience a transmuter is not easier. Unarmed combat is strong by itself, and diversing your experience makes reaching invocation 10 and blade hands castable at the same time hard. Blade hands also removes your shield, which is very useful early (if you found one, if you are not a gladiator). Usually as a naga monk of chei your biggest problem is not damage output, but fighting mages / ranged attackers. Your invocable abilities help more than transmutations. I do not want to suggest that a transmuter is that hard, it's also a fun build.

The most important things the naga of chei needs in the midgame is some form of translocation (control teleport+blink is the best), and some ranged combat. Since your IQ will be high, conjurations are the easiest. Summons can help a lot too. The big problem is usually to aquire a good spellset (or items, if you do not rely on spells).

The early game is not easy with a Naga Warper of chei, but if you can get past it, controlled teleport is extremly useful later, and it's not easy to find. You do not need big movement speed if you can just blink instead. Conjuration/summoning spells are much easier to find.

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Post Friday, 23rd March 2012, 20:01

Re: Complete NaMo of Chei character guide

+15 dex means up to +18 EV for a Naga. +18 EV is important.
+15 Int mean a lot more spellpower or saved XP or whatnot, fewer miscasts, better MR. I've never heard anyone say that +15 int just isn't that important.
+15 Str means +5 or more dex in a heavy armour build, depending on the race, translating into +5 or so EV.

But not having haste is a killer.

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Post Friday, 23rd March 2012, 20:51

Re: Complete NaMo of Chei character guide

I don't think losing early game constriction is that big a problem. Early game naga should still be making full use of the spit attack anyway. Death at a distance is always good. You can eat poisonous corpses (kobolds, mites, etc.) to make up for the extra hunger. A little early stealth can be a lifesaver, too. Being able to run the other direction when you see grinder or sigmund (or just trouble) gives you time to develop. You don't HAVE to push it very far, just enough to buy that turn or two of "Oh no, I think not! Time to flee!"

Lots of early game naga deaths are, I think, a play issue. It's strong when you remember all your tools, but if you try to tab through, splats can happen. The more I play this game, the more I feel like the biggest learning curve is for the early game of a new race/background combo. Late/mid game tends to fall into one of a dozen different archetypes, so it's easier to rely on prior experiences.

Read this post and went ahead and rolled a NaWa in unstable on CAO; made it to the temple, but it's still hard to click on chei with all the other options in front of me. Here goes!

Edit: Heh, the temple or which HAD no chei altar
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Post Friday, 23rd March 2012, 20:59

Re: Complete NaMo of Chei character guide

smock wrote:1) I think it's because 27 UC + 15 SH is a lot of skill points.

2) Decreasing returns to Dex above 24 doesn't mean no returns.

3)I'd advocate for stealth. When I play Nagas it's usually my highest skill, up to 20 or so. I think it's even more important with Chei. FWIW, I don't commonly use Slouch. I think it's because stealth helps avoid situations where you might have to use slouch. If you have high stealth, then that scary hill giant on level 8 will dance around you and then wander off. No need to spend 16-24 piety on it.


I numbered some of your points and wanted to reply:

1) It is; but this build is focused on the late game. You can get by with around 15 UC through just about all of the midgame, and I didn't raise it over 20 until I had necromutation online. I play long games. I had incredible amounts of exp. My naga had 27 Unarmed, 27 armor (-2 apt), 23 fighting, 24 dodging (-2 apt), 15 shields, and lots of spellcasting as well: 23 spellcasting, 15 translocation, 19 necromancy, 19 transmutations, 17 summoning. For a shorter 3 rune game, you'd cut out the spell casting, but the physical skills themselves aren't too hard to raise.

Morgue file referenced: http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/0.10/Ta ... 202132.txt I'll be adding this to the guide as a sample also.

2) True, and I did raise dex on my 5 rune win, but the cutoff is pretty severe: after 24 you get half the effect, and after 34 it cuts in half again to a quarter. My naga had 35 dex with no points assigned to it on levels, from a +4 dex randart and random level up gains. So the points you add on top will eventually be worth .25 dex.

3) Hill giants cease to be scary very early on with this build, with high fist damage and a shield to block their hits. You should be wearing heavy armor by the time they start appearing, so you'll have blocking and armor to rely on. There's almost no reason to ever slouch a single mob. Slouch should be used frequently, but used for groups.

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Post Friday, 23rd March 2012, 21:58

Re: Complete NaMo of Chei character guide

Moved the guide to the wiki, formated it somewhat, can be found here:

http://crawl.chaosforge.org/index.php?t ... Monk_guide

I will link it from a couple of pages, what do you think about if this should be beginner recommended? I do think it is an easy and powerful build, although it might be somewhat tricky to start, especially once constriction is level 13+.

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Post Saturday, 24th March 2012, 01:04

Re: Complete NaMo of Chei character guide

Any love for skalds? I have been trying some naga skalds lately and they seem alright. Poles, spit, and brands seems to work pretty decent with shroud as a ok damage shield at low levels. No idea how well it works later on though. The thought of beating on someone with a flaming weapon while you are constricting them is kind of funny though.

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Post Saturday, 24th March 2012, 10:38

Re: Complete NaMo of Chei character guide

I mentioned that it works fine with other melee builds and listed transmuters/fighters/gladiators...I don't really have much experience with skalds, so....sure? ;) really it's more of a "naga melee" guide, but I wanted to be slightly more specific. Maybe I should generalize it?
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Post Saturday, 24th March 2012, 15:13

Re: Complete NaMo of Chei character guide

I think the guide is very well done - easy to follow and to understand the underlying strategies involved.
I imagine the ultimate success on whether your Naga goes for 3 vs. 15 will be which spellbooks you find. Good luck with a book shop in Mines might give you the idea that you can go for the all-runer. But if you get a bit unlucky you might struggle just to get the 3-runer in.
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Post Sunday, 25th March 2012, 11:01

Re: Complete NaMo of Chei character guide

I may just be getting fortunate, but I haven't had trouble finding necronomicon in most of my games...My 15 rune run took forever to find a grand grimoire for mass abjuration, though. I had cleared all of pan before I gave up on finding it and paid 1840 for it in the orc:4 shops. Then immediately afterwards I ran tomb and found one on the ground, and there was a third in hells ;)

It certainly could be an issue but I think the books generate often enough to be fairly reliable. To not have enough items for a 3 rune run you'd need to never find a large shield/barding at all ;)

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Post Wednesday, 28th March 2012, 17:21

Re: Complete NaMo of Chei character guide

tasonir wrote:Maybe I'll add a stealth optional notice, but I've found it to just be bothersome - you can't sneak up on mobs because you're terribly slow


Fortunately, this isn't true: your stealth check only happens each time the player makes a move, so your ability to sneak up on an npc is independent of your movement speed. It also turns out that +15 to dex is a pretty sizable boost to stealth.

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Post Saturday, 31st March 2012, 02:45

Re: Complete NaMo of Chei character guide

Perhaps I should have been more clear - you can't sneak up on wandering mobs who have not noticed you but are not sleeping. They will move 3-5 spaces depending on their speed for every step you take, and appear to be blinking around your LOS due to the random walking they do.

If they are actually asleep, then by all means sneak up on them. But most monsters will be awake and simply have not noticed you, and you can't sneak up on them (reliably - they can always end up next to you by chance). I typically shout so they'll come towards me if my stealth is too high for this to happen automatically.

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Post Thursday, 19th April 2012, 04:13

Re: Complete NaMo of Chei character guide

I've updated the guide a fair amount, the main changes are no longer emphasizing Monks as a background, and to strongly recommend statue form as the best transmutation to use. It's now called a melee Naga guide, as plenty of backgrounds are appropriate for the build. A fair amount of minor rewriting throughout, hopefully it's clear and I don't have any sections offering contradictory advice :) Let me know if anything feels repeated too much, or especially is inconsistent with the guide as a whole. Rewrote the recommended spells section because I didn't like listing spells by school when a lot of them had two schools and thus can't really be assigned to one spell school. Emphasized the core six spells and moved others to additional spells, etc etc. Hopefully it's a bit more clearly and somewhat less "misguided" ;)

The equipment section I didn't have the heart to rewrite right now, but it probably needs it the most. Heavy vs light armor is a bit of a strange case for this build, and it varies from very early to mid game to late game a lot. I'll get to it soon :)

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