Why are Draconians considered hard?

[Fungus]

So, I'm new to DCSS, having played for about 2-3 weeks. I'm not new to roguelikes, having played and beaten ADOM and Nethack for years, and dabbled in TOME in days of yore. After trying seemingly hundreds of variations of wizards (transmuters/conjureres/elementalists/etc), I've come to the conclusion that Draconian is a very strong class for spellcasters. I tried races like Human, Kobold, Vampire, Naga, Deep Elf, Octopode (ha!) and a few others. Most of them did not make it to the Lair. On the other hand, my current L27 Green DrWz of Ashenzari has 9 runes (decaying, serpentine, silver, abyssal, Pan runes) and is doing just fine. My other characters that have made it close to that far were a Pale DrWz that made it to the L20-ish (but died to an eye/orange brain vault on D:19 or so) and a L21 NaTm of Chei that I got bored with and is just sitting around.

Yet the wiki lists Draconian as "Expert" which comes as a great surprise to me. Dex isn't as bad as it used to be (so I've read). So they can't wear armour? Many races have trouble with body armour in some regard, but Draconians make up for it with AC+13! As a spellcaster the extra AC helped with early game survivability immensely (as at that point all you would normally wear is a robe). Not having to train armour saves XP for other skills and the ending AC boost isn't shabby at all. The only thing I can see lacking would be perks from artefact/branded armour. Maybe I'm just unlucky, but in my current game, having run across 1-2 dozen pieces of artefact body armour, nothing seems *that* worthwhile. So IMO, I can hardly see Draconian listed as "Expert" (along with the likes of Felid and Octopode!) when Moderate or even Novice would be better. Maybe GDR has something to do with it?

Compared to a Human ("Novice" race), you get:

Pros:

• High AC without armour (yes, this is a Pro)
• Higher HP
• Breath attack
• Intrinsic resistances and cFlight
• Better Fighting and Unarmed boosts

Cons:

• Can't wear artefact/branded body armour
• Slower leveling (doesn't seem too bad since I hit L27 before Zot)
• Slightly weaker at ranged attacks, dodging, and minor magic schools

For the record, I've played grey, green, purple, mottled and pale draconians. I rolled a white but decided I didn't want to try it. But even grey (which everyone seemingly hates) doesn't seem that bad. I only really use breath attacks in the early game and they soon phase out by the end (some less than others).

[jejorda2]

1)The wiki is usually (or at least often) wrong.
2)For the longest time, Draconians couldn't use bucklers, which made it hard for them to get started with shields.

[Blade]

The listing of draconians as 'expert' on the wiki is more of a problem with the wiki than with draconians. Species really can't be listed by difficulty very effectively, and any attempt to do so will likely introduce more confusion than it is worth.

The general opinion (not usually expressed by the wiki) is that draconians are pretty good, as you have said.

[KoboldLord]

Specifically, those difficulty ratings were written back in version 0.5, before the big heavy armor nerf. We are now in .10, five whole versions later with mostly entirely different devteam members.

At the point those difficulty ratings were written, picking up an early set of platemail would allow your mountain dwarf to cruise through the early game. Not much could actually hurt you successfully. Even casters would often choose to upgrade to medium armors in spite of the casting penalty, because the defensive benefits were just that good. Draconians, however, were restricted to robes and dragon armor, the latter of which was rarely available until later in the game. So they couldn't wear the good early-game armor, and that's where most deaths happen.

Moving on to 0.6, heavy armor was brutally overnerfed, and while it's come back up in every version since then, it still isn't quite on par with EV builds. Losing out on platemail is really not any sort of penalty at all, and ultimately the draconian's innate resistances mean that you're simply forced to choose one particular type of pseudo-body armor.

Additionally, draconian breath weapons in 0.5 were not like the breath weapons you see on them today. There was a comprehensive rework of draconians a while back, but since 0.5, where they all got pretty significant upgrades. There are still a couple lemons in there, but if you draw, for example, red as your color, you get a powerful breath weapon that covers your ranged attack needs all the way through Lair and maybe beyond.

[Fungus]

The listing of draconians as 'expert' on the wiki is more of a problem with the wiki than with draconians. Species really can't be listed by difficulty very effectively, and any attempt to do so will likely introduce more confusion than it is worth.

The general opinion (not usually expressed by the wiki) is that draconians are pretty good, as you have said.

In ##crawl yesterday, someone asked "what are the hardest races?" to which the response given was: Mummy, Draconian, Felid and Octopode.

From my limited experience, Felid seems the hardest. I actually got two Octopode Wizards to a mid-Lair death (losing a couple dozen up to that point), and then asked myself--why am I doing this again? Went back to Draconian, and the first one I rolled after the Octopodes is my current Green.

[TwilightPhoenix]

Felids aren't too hard once you understand they need to run from a lot of stuff rather than risk getting one-shotted and then come back to kill it later. Kind of like Spriggans in that regard. Besides, Felid Transmuters are fun.

"Oh, look at that cute, fluffy kitten! I'm gonna squish it! Here kitty kitty kitt... OH MY GOD IT TURNED INTO A DRAGON!"

[Konebred]

One of my favorite games was an unarmed draconian berserker. Found 2 tomes of armor though, that helped a whole lot. I love draconians though, their tail slap seems pretty strong so an unarmed build seems to be really useful for hybrid characters. I also like the fact they don't have any penalties on any skills. The random color can also give a pip of resistance which can be huge depending on what you find. They have good hp and decent AC to help get you through early-mid game which is arguably the toughest since random chance determines your fate more than late game, at least to me anyways. Hell I always thought dracs were a bit OP. When I wanna play a game and just roll with it I pick a draconian monk and just go with whatever I find. I hate their ghosts though, draining breath from halfway across the screen blows.

[KoboldLord]

I wouldn't trust anybody who asserts that octopodes are hard. They have good magic aptitudes across the board, and there aren't very many points in the early game where their poor AC actually comes into play. Usually you can force a one-on-one every time, in which case attacks are dealing maybe 2hp extra damage. Constriction is about as good as an early-game emergency desperation move as you can hope for, should you be cornered somehow while out of mp. By the mid-game, rings have started to spawn in numbers and ring egos are generally better than the standard equipment egos, so you get to stack permanent buffs that clearly are not designed to be stacked like that.

I'm not sure what I'd put at the top of a list of difficulty, and it would probably have to vary depending on player skill, but I sure wouldn't put octopodes there.

[Blade]

The listing of draconians as 'expert' on the wiki is more of a problem with the wiki than with draconians. Species really can't be listed by difficulty very effectively, and any attempt to do so will likely introduce more confusion than it is worth.

The general opinion (not usually expressed by the wiki) is that draconians are pretty good, as you have said.

In ##crawl yesterday, someone asked "what are the hardest races?" to which the response given was: Mummy, Draconian, Felid and Octopode.

To which I ask...who gave the answer? I'm guessing it was someone like me (not me, though; I wouldn't say that) who still isn't incredible at the game and whose opinions carry little weight, rather than someone like elliptic or jeanjacques. People can say anything on irc; take it with a grain of salt unless they very clearly know what they're talking about.

[Fungus]

Not sure who it was who gave the answer.

Is it just me, or do rings spawn more frequently with Octopodes?

[rebthor]

I'd say that of all things Humans are the hardest species for one reason only - you need to really get yourself into the mindset that you're going to play the game the RNG gave you and not the plan that you had coming in. Whereas as a SpEn or DEFE or conversely a TrMo or NaGl, you have a pretty good idea what your game is going to be like, a Human sort of needs to be much more ready to just drop all the preconceived notions of starting class much more quickly.
As a supporting point - but no means proof - the tourney shows the fewest wins overall by ghouls and humans. I'll grant the counterpoint it could just be because they're boring/vanilla and no one wants to play them.

[eharper256]

I'd say that of all things Humans are the hardest species for one reason only

Depends on how adaptable you are, though. I don't find humans too hard; in fact I prefer them to several species precisely because I'm not stuck to one set of abilities and can adapt to new things.

Anyway, Draconians aren't hard. The only actual 'hard' species is probably Ogre or maybe Mummy due to the terrible aptitudes. Even then its not a vast difference.

[Sojiro]

I'd say that of all things Humans are the hardest species for one reason only - you need to really get yourself into the mindset that you're going to play the game the RNG gave you and not the plan that you had coming in. Whereas as a SpEn or DEFE or conversely a TrMo or NaGl, you have a pretty good idea what your game is going to be like, a Human sort of needs to be much more ready to just drop all the preconceived notions of starting class much more quickly.

Note that the same is true of Demigods.

And yeah, the reason Draconians are noted as hard to play is because the page is outdated.

[cerebovssquire]

I'd say that of all things Humans are the hardest species for one reason only - you need to really get yourself into the mindset that you're going to play the game the RNG gave you and not the plan that you had coming in. Whereas as a SpEn or DEFE or conversely a TrMo or NaGl, you have a pretty good idea what your game is going to be like, a Human sort of needs to be much more ready to just drop all the preconceived notions of starting class much more quickly.
As a supporting point - but no means proof - the tourney shows the fewest wins overall by ghouls and humans. I'll grant the counterpoint it could just be because they're boring/vanilla and no one wants to play them.

There is absolutely no reason why a HuFE can't go Vehumet and eventually work towards Haste/Controlled Blink/Firestorm, no reason why a HuEn can't go Kiku and play a stabbing/necromancy style, why a HuBe can't count on getting an (antimagic) executioner's axe and using that with plate, why a HuTm wouldn't play as a UC/EV/Blade Hands character, etc.
There is some weird misconception floating around here that humans are a very hard species if you don't adapt constantly to what you find on the floor. They have good apts, decent HP and stats, and can worship all gods which provide a guaranteed or near-guaranteed way to (eventually) receive gear that is all you will need to win, to the extent that you can plan your game according to receiving that gear/abilities.
I have won 3 humans (HuFi, HuEE, HuGl, HuFi and HuEE allruned), 2 online and 1 local, and in all of these games I knew exactly what I wanted. One used Okawaru to get that, the other Unarmed Combat and Elyvilon - two pretty surefire ways to use a certain playstyle. One the local one (HuGl) I switched to a scourge because I found one early, but this is something I would have done on pretty much any Gl.

And I absolutely fail to see how "it is a decently strong species made even stronger by the fact that they have an excellent capability for adaption" which is, really, what Hu is about, makes something a hard species, let alone the hardest.

[Yet Another Stupid Noob]

I would say it (humans) are hard because just because you can do anything pretty well does not mean that you can do everything pretty well.

If you know you are going to be a heavy fighter, why would you chose a Hu over a Mi or Mf?

If you are going to be a caster why do Hu over De or Dr?

The only thing humans excell well at is adapting to what you find on the floor, but the floor god is nice enough that most of the time you can pick up what you need for any path.

It is the common hybrid lament. If a generalist can do anything with 90% of the abilities of a specialist, but you know your speciality is going to be, why would you pick the 90% option over the 100% one?

[cerebovssquire]

If you know you are going to be a heavy fighter, why would you chose a Hu over a Mi or Mf?

Because Mf aren't exactly born heavy armour fighters.
Mi is undisputabely the stronger non-casting heavy fighter though. But if I wanted to cast in plate or something I might take Hu, depending on spell levels.

If you are going to be a caster why do Hu over De or Dr?

HP, non-horrible dex, no surprises like "red IE", etc.

There are many reasons why one would like a Hu for some playstyles - and of course there's "I've never won Hu before" which is a pretty good reason, considering that it's a common goal in experienced players to win all races.
I never said that Hu is better than DE, Mi, etc at their respective specialities. I just said that there is no reason why they aren't strong at a great variety of playstyles. I'm aware that they aren't #1 at any of them. My point is mainly that Hu is not a species that has to adapt to survive and that it definitely is nowhere near the bottom end regarding difficulty.

[KoboldLord]

I find that humans play almost exactly like the other vanilla races. High elves might pick up elemental conjurations a bit faster and hill orcs might knock off a point of delay on axes a bit faster, but once I'm past Temple all three of these races are functionally identical. If humans are unpopular, it's probably just that they've got a relatively small space on a dartboard full of choices that are not actually choices.

[whelen]

I'm fond of playing humans precisely because they're so flexible. In a game where hybrids are a strong choice of play, humans are one of the ideal hybrid species. Where a troll monk or a deep elf conjurer narrowly restricts playstyle, a human can do anything, just slightly worse. But for me, doing 10 things averagely is better than doing 5 things masterfully.

As for draconians, I remember complaining about them a few versions ago. They're one of the less flexible races when up against a human/merfolk/high/elf/minotaur selection. Armor choice is the most obvious difference, but for a non-caster especially, that lack of armor is a big factor in the first few dungeon levels where most deaths are likely to occur. For a new player, melee draconians can be tricky.

[tormodpwns]

A lot of power for humans comes from gods. But what about Demigods? A heavy-armour fighter can't worship Okawaru so it has to rely purely on floor loot, which can really, REALLY screw over a character. Similarly, for a spellcaster, they aren't guaranteed any books at all beyond the starting book, which makes building into a late-game sorcerer extremely risky.

[cerebovssquire]

Okawaru weapon gifts were never known for being actually very good... and you'll find plate all over the place. Branded scimitars, battleaxes, glaives, new great swords etc. are all totally decent replacements for the top-tier weapons until you find them.
It's a bit weird not to cast as a heavy-armour (plate) Dg though... you have that really high STR/INT for a reason. Also, the DEX helps getting good EV even in plate, though it might be hard apt-wise to go for both AC/casting and AC/EV.
There is a reason why Makhleb, Yredelemnul etc. are all considered strong heavy-armour-fighter gods, and it's because Okawaru/Trog aren't needed if you have a decent replacement. In the case of Makhleb/Yred/etc. fighters it's the god, in the case of Dg, great stats and HP.

[SchwaWarrior]

Don't worry about what others say. If you're excellent with the Draconian then main the Draconian! Simple as that.

I got bashed a lot because I like to play as a Tengu, and I was told that "they're not a good race" and "you'll never win at Crawl", and I got based again for maining the deity Ashenzari for the same reasons (instead of either Trog or Vehumet). But, I LIKE Tengus! They're so gutsy and full of moxie; they're like the Klingons of Crawl, and totally epic. <33 I feel WAYYY satisfied when I Fireball a Hill Giant six times as it runs up to me and then finish it off by swathing a hole through it with my bare talons, Mortal Kombat style.

I stopped listening to people's flak because I found out how to have fun with this game. That should be what's important, amirite? I think it's cool that you rock Draconians so wildly, bro. I played Draconians a few times, with mild success; the color changing thing throws me off sometimes, and the slow EXP rate scares me (which is hilarious because I frequently play High Elf too, which is even more extreme in the EXP department-- I think it's the aptitudes that's scary, at least High Elves have lots of +s strewn about). The only colors I played that got really far were red and green, I believe; when I get purple I usually get wrecked because I'm not playing a magic class those times D:

[ebarrett]

I played Draconians a few times, with mild success; the color changing thing throws me off sometimes

Sometimes, not getting a colour at xl7 when playing other races throws me off - and I don't even play too many draconians.

[Yet Another Stupid Noob]

What do you do if your FE turns white at level 7? Just keep going and enjoy the extra pip of resistance to offset ring of fire?

[mageykun]

Pretty much, yeah. And enjoy having an ice branded breath attack when you run into any fire themed enemies that would normally give you trouble.

[Blade]

What do you do if your FE turns white at level 7? Just keep going and enjoy the extra pip of resistance to offset ring of fire?

You get both fire storm and ice storm.

Like this:
http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/demon ... 170803.txt

(yes I was an IE with a fire 27 title)
(yes it was awesome)

[KoboldLord]

I got bashed a lot because I like to play as a Tengu, and I was told that "they're not a good race" and "you'll never win at Crawl",

These people are clearly stoned out of their gourd. Tengu are great.

and I got based again for maining the deity Ashenzari for the same reasons (instead of either Trog or Vehumet).

And whatever they're using is obviously cut with something downright hazardous to your health. Ashenzari is love.

What do you do if your FE turns white at level 7? Just keep going and enjoy the extra pip of resistance to offset ring of fire?

The minor aptitude penalty is not a concern. It's only -2, which is a mediocre aptitude rather than a particularly bad one, and at XL7 you're already past most of the early-game hump where bad aptitudes can kill you. Furthermore, most major fire and ice magic spells are also conjurations spells, so you can just kick more of your xp over to that skill instead and end up with roughly the same success rates as if you still had the neutral aptitudes you started with.