Short Newperson Questions


Ask fellow adventurers how to stay alive in the deep, dark, dangerous dungeon below, or share your own accumulated wisdom.

Mines Malingerer

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Post Saturday, 25th May 2019, 09:22

Re: Short Newperson Questions

Thanks much for these quick replies, greatly appreciated, here real quick follow-up:
- I had found long and short blades earlier, including an antimagic quickblade I was using for a while, which at least partially explains my blades skill. Before that I found that artefact scimitar early, which I found very helpful.
- There are no potions of heal wounds for love or money to be found anywhere, neither a better shield, nor a cloak. Nothing in all the shops but redundant trash. I'm not complaining because of the other good stuff I have.
- I DO have a +2 cloak (no brand) that I dropped because I thought my AC is high enough. IIUC, in stone soup, AC is not subtracted from damage dealt, but rather a random number from (guaranteed dr) to (max AC), so that increasing my AC from 50 to 52 would give me only marginal gains, but cloud resistance helps me vs. dragons and all the other crap??
thank you!

Slime Squisher

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Post Saturday, 25th May 2019, 10:13

Re: Short Newperson Questions

The only clouds I remember having to walk through in my last game were all countered by poison resistance. They were poisonous and methitic clouds generated by swamp creatures, green draconians, and gold dragons. You can (for the most part) ignore fire clouds with rF++. There are also clouds of miasma from drakes summoned by draconian stormcallers, but those can be avoided by quickly killing stormcallers or drakes. In addition there are vaults with clouds and several creatures leave clouds behind when they're slain. As you say, a bunch of crap which you can ignore if you wear a scarf of cloud immunity. OTH, a +2 cloak grants about 4 AC, which will mean about 10% extra low-damage attacks deal 0 damage, and high-damage attacks have a little extra damage shaved off, both of which are useful in the whole game.
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Spider Stomper

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Post Saturday, 25th May 2019, 16:35

Re: Short Newperson Questions

onomastikon wrote:- I DO have a +2 cloak (no brand) that I dropped because I thought my AC is high enough. IIUC, in stone soup, AC is not subtracted from damage dealt, but rather a random number from (guaranteed dr) to (max AC), so that increasing my AC from 50 to 52 would give me only marginal gains, but cloud resistance helps me vs. dragons and all the other crap??


GDR only works on certain attacks and AC is worse than you think (it's a random number from 0 to AC [1], then adjusted to a minimum value based on GDR), but the gains from cloud immunity are also marginal. That said, I'd probably use cloud immunity with 50 AC.

[1] There are probably fencepost errors in this but I don't care.
Last edited by damerell on Sunday, 26th May 2019, 23:02, edited 1 time in total.
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onomastikon

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Post Saturday, 25th May 2019, 19:55

Re: Short Newperson Questions

onomastikon wrote:Thanks much for these quick replies, greatly appreciated, here real quick follow-up:
- I had found long and short blades earlier, including an antimagic quickblade I was using for a while, which at least partially explains my blades skill. Before that I found that artefact scimitar early, which I found very helpful.
- There are no potions of heal wounds for love or money to be found anywhere, neither a better shield, nor a cloak. Nothing in all the shops but redundant trash. I'm not complaining because of the other good stuff I have.
- I DO have a +2 cloak (no brand) that I dropped because I thought my AC is high enough. IIUC, in stone soup, AC is not subtracted from damage dealt, but rather a random number from (guaranteed dr) to (max AC), so that increasing my AC from 50 to 52 would give me only marginal gains, but cloud resistance helps me vs. dragons and all the other crap??
thank you!

Note that "Cloud immunity" doesn't make you immune from *attacks* that produce clouds, just the residual effects the clouds might have, as such, it will make you immune to, for example, the poison effect from gold dragon poison breath clouds (but not their other breath attacks), or random fire/cold clouds you might see laying around, but those are pretty infrequent. Most of the things that are actually *dangerous* do damage to you directly, most clouds that are actually a problem are from fixed position effects (and if you know you're going to walk into e.x. a mutagenic cloud vault, you can just swap the cloak out temporarily)

As an example, red draconians breath fire at you, and leave a fire cloud in the spot you're standing, the impact damage isn't prevented by the scarf (And is probably the majority of the damage you would take from the attack), but the residual damage from 'standing in the cloud' is prevented (you could also prevent it by walking out of the cloud)

You are correct that a few more points of AC aren't a big deal (it's actually 3-4, not 2, cloaks give 1 base AC, vs Scarves 0, and 1 more base AC may push you over the point where you get a second point from skill, depending on where the breakpoint is exactly) There are some other scarves that might be more useful to you, if you find one of repel missiles or guardian spirit, it would probably have a more useful effect, generally, than cloud immunity (as would a number of cloak egos).

All that being said, if your best choices at 50 AC are "a plain +2 cloak" or "a scarf of cloud immunity" which one you actually choose to wear isn't going to make much if any difference.
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Mines Malingerer

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Post Monday, 27th May 2019, 03:26

Re: Short Newperson Questions

Thank you!
I do have automatic skilling on, and just tweak that with focusing some and occasionally removing others. Does everyone else use manual?
I notice that I'll sometimes get the message "your axe skill has increased to base x!", and when I look at the skill screen, the number is different. Is "base" less important (for example for calculating min delay) or the number I can see?
I'm almost done with zot2, going carefully, and so far not dead, but veeeeeery nearly died on zot1. I see now that an amulet of guard spirit would be helpful, but only if I never wield the antimagic trident - probably not worth the reduction in flexibility?

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Post Monday, 27th May 2019, 04:29

Re: Short Newperson Questions

onomastikon wrote:Thank you!
I do have automatic skilling on, and just tweak that with focusing some and occasionally removing others. Does everyone else use manual?
I notice that I'll sometimes get the message "your axe skill has increased to base x!", and when I look at the skill screen, the number is different. Is "base" less important (for example for calculating min delay) or the number I can see?
I'm almost done with zot2, going carefully, and so far not dead, but veeeeeery nearly died on zot1. I see now that an amulet of guard spirit would be helpful, but only if I never wield the antimagic trident - probably not worth the reduction in flexibility?

"Base level" means "without modification by things that modify your skills" For example, Okawaru's ability "heroism" temporarily adds 5 to all physical skills, the "base level" doesn't include those 5 points.

It's likely that in your case, you're seeing a bonus to your skills from "cross training" a percentage of some weapon skills (for example polearms) gives a bonus to other weapon skills (for example axes)
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Mines Malingerer

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Post Monday, 27th May 2019, 17:19

Re: Short Newperson Questions

Thank you.
Cleared zot 4 and now just hesitating before the final step, don't want to blow it. Almost died again, only 4 hp left - a toe of all things again! Is there any special thing I should be doing against this crazy kind of debilitating spells of its? Should I use my scroll of silence, try to boost my mr? I slice right through dragons, but those toes!!!
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Spider Stomper

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Post Monday, 27th May 2019, 20:49

Re: Short Newperson Questions

onomastikon wrote:Thank you.
Cleared zot 4 and now just hesitating before the final step, don't want to blow it. Almost died again, only 4 hp left - a toe of all things again! Is there any special thing I should be doing against this crazy kind of debilitating spells of its? Should I use my scroll of silence, try to boost my mr? I slice right through dragons, but those toes!!!


That's torment, MR does nothing against it. It halves your current HP (rN gives partial protection) and can be spammed without end because a lot of the worst in Zot is immune to torment. Honestly, the best way to nerf toes is {antimagic} on a high damage weapon. Z:5 also has ancient liches (can be silenced) and orbs (silence can't affect them), they will also obliterate your char unless antimagic hits them hard enough, quickly enough.

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Post Wednesday, 29th May 2019, 02:00

Re: Short Newperson Questions

One of the best counters for tormenting monsters is a scroll of fog, back up, force them to get into melee range before they can use torment on you (it requires LOS). Anti-magic is also good (as already mentioned), Then, there is silence for some tormenting critters (check details on monster). In extended TSO is the best medicine for torment, when combined with letting weaker demons/undead tailing along with you (to be used as portable healing potions via axe, invocation holy blasts, ignition, or other AOE attack).

Lesser beckoning is also a great spell to train on about every single character, it can help drag them in from range more quickly achieving roughly what fog does. Get them in melee range quickly and pound them, or nuke them hard with ranged if you're not built for melee. Use blink scrolls to get away if you get unlucky.

But, at the end of the day, torment is still pretty nasty.

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onomastikon

Mines Malingerer

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Post Wednesday, 29th May 2019, 05:39

Re: Short Newperson Questions

Thanks much!
I got a bunch of Z:5 cleared, including killing 3 ancient liches and 4 orbs of fire. I had to use all my potions of mutations because I got pretty nastily mutated, now just moderately so, but hopefully enough to proceed.
I have a question about proceeding further to the inner chamber. On the one side, there is a single-tile corridor which has at least 1 zot trap in it, I really can't walk that way and have no scrolls of blinking left. Is it ok to leave that one side alone?

In other news, I am still incredibly unsuccessful with anything other than a berserker. I have never been able to get a caster or a hybrid past level 14. Is there some consensus as to how easy berserker is or is it just luck and general lack of skill on my part?
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Spider Stomper

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Post Wednesday, 29th May 2019, 08:25

Re: Short Newperson Questions

onomastikon wrote:I have a question about proceeding further to the inner chamber. On the one side, there is a single-tile corridor which has at least 1 zot trap in it, I really can't walk that way and have no scrolls of blinking left. Is it ok to leave that one side alone?


There is not much trouble if you leave it as it is. Once you have the Orb, you're up against anything and everything that Pandemonium can throw at your char at a steady pace. "Orb run" is about as perfect a name as possible, just use whatever you can to get to the exit in D:1.

onomastikon wrote:In other news, I am still incredibly unsuccessful with anything other than a berserker. I have never been able to get a caster or a hybrid past level 14. Is there some consensus as to how easy berserker is or is it just luck and general lack of skill on my part?


Berserkers are not so much easy as they are simple, hardcore casters and especially hybrids need a much more critical and complex approach if you want to be good with them. It can be bad luck, and lack of skill, and lack of attention, hurried choices... In my opinion, the best way to improve when playing casters is to first just have more awareness of choice. What to do: kill, stall, escape? How to do that: weapons, spells, scrolls, wands? Versatility makes things more complicated, but also allows you to take on what the dungeon throws at your char in multiple different ways. It may be that you're too used to how streamlined a berserker build is.

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Post Wednesday, 29th May 2019, 11:19

Re: Short Newperson Questions

I'd try to lure monsters out of that side with a scroll of noise. I know some people often only clear one of the lungs, so you can leave it. The downside is that it cripples your ability to teleport in Zot:5.

I find pure casters and ranged characters easiest. But you can't really use automatic skilling for pure casters - especially for wizards. Seeing how you skilled this game I can imagine you would make big strategic mistakes when playing casters. There's also the matter of tactics. If you often find yourself in trouble because you've run out of mp or find a dangerous enemy is adjacent to you and not dead, you're using the wrong tactics. If not your tactics are probably good enough.

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Post Wednesday, 29th May 2019, 16:56

Re: Short Newperson Questions

onomastikon wrote:Is there some consensus as to how easy berserker is or is it just luck and general lack of skill on my part?

There is consensus. The developers intend species and backgrounds to have varied "power levels" and for berserker to be one of the most powerful. And so it is, for skilled and unskilled players alike. duvessa's tier list (which was based on streaking / high winrate) placed berserker as the 2nd strongest background at the time. I believe (though I cannot prove) that most streak / high winrate players would place it within the top 5.

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Post Wednesday, 29th May 2019, 17:22

Re: Short Newperson Questions

stormdragon wrote:
onomastikon wrote:Is there some consensus as to how easy berserker is or is it just luck and general lack of skill on my part?

There is consensus. The developers intend species and backgrounds to have varied "power levels" and for berserker to be one of the most powerful. And so it is, for skilled and unskilled players alike. duvessa's tier list (which was based on streaking / high winrate) placed berserker as the 2nd strongest background at the time. I believe (though I cannot prove) that most streak / high winrate players would place it within the top 5.

While I don't play online and don't have any statistics on my streaking/winrate at all, I've played way more than is reasonable, for a long long time, and Berserker is definitely in the top 5
Really gods are very powerful, and Trog is one of the more powerful gods, and *starting with a god on D1* is a very powerful bump (particularly in the form of surviving the early game where you have less control of your circumstances). I don't know if a "gold zerker" that started with Gozag or a "Card zerker" that started with Nemelex would be more or less powerful than the current Berserker (they'd certainly be more *complicated*) but both of those stick out as being something that would be a very large advantage on D:1 (Probably Fedhas and some others too, any god that gives a significant advantage at low piety would probably be pretty powerful)

Trog is *also* reasonably powerful later in the game. You can abandon him, but you don't need to to win a 3 rune game (really you can do a 15 rune game with Trog, but it's probably slightly harder than ditching him for one of a few other gods that are more powerful late game.)

The problem with Trog as a learning tool is that you can use him to learn one valuable skill set, but he distorts or makes unavailable others. Threat assessment with Trog is slightly skewed (Berserk makes some early-to-middle fights which would be hard/challenging trivial) and of course you develop no facility with magic or how to use any of the spell-related tools, ranged attacks and wands help a little, particularly with understanding how to use magical attacks, but once you start to branch into other gods, there's a whole additional set of things to learn, all while not having that early-game advantage to keep you safe and push you into the midgame. So there's definitely a difficulty jump in going from a Berserker to anything else (both in terms of learning curve and in adjusting to not having an early safety net)

I would actually suggest for people looking to "wean themselves off of Berserker" to play a few non-berserker start games (Fi/Gl/Hu) and take a Trog altar when it becomes available, then you can see how to play with the early game without Trog, but still play in mostly the same way you're accustomed to, this will let you kind of get a feel for how much help you're getting from Trog early on as a Berserker.
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Mines Malingerer

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Post Saturday, 1st June 2019, 12:23

Re: Short Newperson Questions

Thanks much. I suppose streamlined goes hand in hand with ease for me.

Quick question: I can see a small "vault" made entirely of translucent material, without doors or portals. Seems empty of enemies but full of loot. Do I understand correctly that I cannot blink in, wand of dogging won't work, passwall also, so that my only way in would be with a very lucky teleport?

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Post Saturday, 1st June 2019, 13:19

Re: Short Newperson Questions

onomastikon wrote:Thanks much. I suppose streamlined goes hand in hand with ease for me.

Quick question: I can see a small "vault" made entirely of translucent material, without doors or portals. Seems empty of enemies but full of loot. Do I understand correctly that I cannot blink in, wand of dogging won't work, passwall also, so that my only way in would be with a very lucky teleport?


Usually there is a way in to all the vaults, unless it's just for decoration. Use X (cursor around) and v on the tile to examine the exact type of wall it is. If it says rock, it can be cut with a wand of digging. If it says stone, metal, or crystal shatter should work. Passwall works sometimes, but not on all, I suspect it needs to be rock. Then there is a kind of unnatural wall (I can't recall details off the top of my head) that is especially difficult or impossible to mess with. Zot5 has a solid pink looking type of wall that I thnk I've blasted with shatter before, but it is extremely tough, and it's possible it either changed so that can't be done anymore, or that I remember incorrectly. I do not think teleport will ever get you inside the vault. The two strongest forms of tools to get through walls are shatter and possibly Lugonu's corrupt ability. If those won't do the trick, then you're probably not meant to ever break it down, and you'd need a designed portal. Sorry for some vagueness in this response, an actual breakdown would require me to look at code. Perhaps someone else knows the exact details by memory, but this should give you a pretty good start on it.

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Post Saturday, 1st June 2019, 15:50

Re: Short Newperson Questions

svendre wrote:Usually there is a way in to all the vaults, unless it's just for decoration. Use X (cursor around) and v on the tile to examine the exact type of wall it is. If it says rock, it can be cut with a wand of digging. If it says stone, metal, or crystal shatter should work. Passwall works sometimes, but not on all, I suspect it needs to be rock. Then there is a kind of unnatural wall (I can't recall details off the top of my head) that is especially difficult or impossible to mess with. Zot5 has a solid pink looking type of wall that I thnk I've blasted with shatter before


FWIW it might look different, but it isn't; there's only rock, stone, metal, crystal, and permanent walls. The orb vault is entirely made of stone and permanent walls.

What might have confused matters is the thin walls that divide the lungs into two parts are mostly permanent with stone ends, but also a small chance of getting individual spaces in them replaced with stone. Additionally there is a thick lump of stone which divides the first room in the orb chamber from the second half of the lungs; you could Shatter your way through that and get to the orb chamber, bypassing most of the lungs, were it not for the trivial detail that doing so will attract the attention of everyone in the lungs anyway.
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Mines Malingerer

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Post Saturday, 1st June 2019, 18:29

Re: Short Newperson Questions

Thank you.
In this case, I am not referring to the "vault" proper of the orb at Zot:5, but rather another place with a different character. (My MiBe finally got me my first win!) I am trying a caster again, this time at least getting further, perhaps with better luck / planning / skills. In any case, in this game, I can find two instances of rooms (so probably "vault" is the wrong term) into which I can see but into which there is no apparent entrance. In the one room, I am sure of it, because I can see all the boundaries and every square -- no portals, no stairs, no door runed or otherwise. In the second case, I can see a transporter, whose destination end I can basically stand on on the other side of the wall I can look through, which would get me out, but only a door on the far side without any way of access to it. The walls are of a kind of rock which do not allow the use of the wand of digging (apparently "unworked stone" only), and I can't cast shatter even if I could find it. Just seems odd.

Slime Squisher

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Post Saturday, 1st June 2019, 18:59

Re: Short Newperson Questions

There exist vaults with 1 tile of treasure which cannot be accessed. There are also vaults with 1, 9 or 16 tiles of treasure which can be accessed with digging or passwall. There is also a vault with up and down trapdoors in it, which you can get dumped into by trapdoors on the adjacent levels. There may be others I haven't seen myself.
I would be surprised if there was a vault with multiple tiles of treasure which are surrounded by transparent stone on all sides.

For the vault with a transporter, I suspect you'll be able to access the treasure if you enter the transporter. You might also have to fight dangerous monsters though.

Mines Malingerer

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Post Saturday, 1st June 2019, 19:21

Re: Short Newperson Questions

I can verify there is a room entirely surrounded by translucent walls containing nothing but treasure.
And I cannot enter the transporter, because it is on the other side of the translucent wall! I can only stand on the exit (destination). I have tried all stairs and hatches from the lower level and all stairs and hatches from the upper level and still cannot enter the area where the door to the room with the transporter is :)

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Mines Malingerer

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Post Saturday, 1st June 2019, 22:35

Re: Short Newperson Questions

Items "of wizardry" do not stack???
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Post Saturday, 1st June 2019, 23:03

Re: Short Newperson Questions

onomastikon wrote:Items "of wizardry" do not stack???

They kind of do, but not very well. The first item gives the biggest boost, then you get diminishing returns from other items. Also IIRC you can only improve spell success by half with wizardry.
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...{HEMoDEHuDDAs}{HaBeKoAK}CeVM{MfWnMiAK}TeAMDrIE{FoVMVSFi}{MuVMGhGlVpMo}HaWrSpWz
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Post Saturday, 1st June 2019, 23:15

Re: Short Newperson Questions

onomastikon wrote:And I cannot enter the transporter, because it is on the other side of the translucent wall! I can only stand on the exit (destination). I have tried all stairs and hatches from the lower level and all stairs and hatches from the upper level and still cannot enter the area where the door to the room with the transporter is :)


I'll bet you can; there aren't really transporter vaults without entrances. If playing offline, can you provide a save? If online, try and get someone to take a look by asking on IRC / Discord.
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Mines Malingerer

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Post Sunday, 2nd June 2019, 08:07

Re: Short Newperson Questions

Ah I see I am a Vehumet worshipper so only one item.

Something really bizarre has seemed to happen -- I am literlly stuck on level 2 of the Swamp. It seems as if some trees have grown (how?), preventing me from reaching any stairway. I have tried flying, and using the automatic movement (ctrl-G to S:1 or S:3) but neither manual nor automatic movement can get me out, which is weird since I got here in the first place. I cannot appear to dig through trees. Is this normal? I'd hate to abandon a game in which for the first time a caster of mine has survived past XL 16
EDIT: OK I was able to chop through some plants some monster must have cast, sorry
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Slime Squisher

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Post Sunday, 2nd June 2019, 08:13

Re: Short Newperson Questions

That sounds like the result of a teleport trap. Have you tried auto-exploring ('o')? Is there any reachable brown on your minimap? (Brown signifies unexplored terrain.)

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Post Sunday, 2nd June 2019, 08:16

Re: Short Newperson Questions

Do bonuses for spellpower persist after the item which gave the power bonus are removed? In other words, could I wield a "staff of conjuration" or a "staff of cold" to cast, say, spellforger servitor or ozu's armour, then switch gear and retain the servitor and the armour at the power I had when casting?

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Post Sunday, 2nd June 2019, 08:32

Re: Short Newperson Questions

onomastikon wrote:Do bonuses for spellpower persist after the item which gave the power bonus are removed? In other words, could I wield a "staff of conjuration" or a "staff of cold" to cast, say, spellforger servitor or ozu's armour, then switch gear and retain the servitor and the armour at the power I had when casting?


yes. The only exception I know of is Deflect Missiles.

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Post Sunday, 2nd June 2019, 14:17

Re: Short Newperson Questions

Thanks.
What are the chances of going through all the dungeon, lair, both lair branches, orc, elf, and most of vault without finding a single piece of headgear or boots? Is this some weird seed-dependent anamoly?

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Post Sunday, 2nd June 2019, 18:24

Re: Short Newperson Questions

onomastikon wrote:Thanks.
What are the chances of going through all the dungeon, lair, both lair branches, orc, elf, and most of vault without finding a single piece of headgear or boots? Is this some weird seed-dependent anamoly?

Chances are low, but definitely non-zero, I've had a game or two like that, just the RNG being R.
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Post Sunday, 2nd June 2019, 21:42

Re: Short Newperson Questions

onomastikon wrote:Thanks.
What are the chances of going through all the dungeon, lair, both lair branches, orc, elf, and most of vault without finding a single piece of headgear or boots? Is this some weird seed-dependent anamoly?


Yes, just some strange random numbers strung together. :| You can also play through most of the game until you find the very first blink scroll, or get through all of L before finding the first ring of any kind. Both examples are from personal experience, naturally.

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Post Monday, 3rd June 2019, 12:00

Re: Short Newperson Questions

Sorry, one last one:
This time, my caster is still alive at XL 21, I can't believe it, and I have suddenly found a couple of items that enhance spell power, namely 1. a robe of the archmagi, 2. a staff of fire, and 3. a ring of fire. Do these also not stack, or not stack well, with being a vehemut worshipper? Or are the # signs only approximate? I still miss # on almost all my spells, so I am obviously not at max power yet, so I think the archmage robe is good, yet I only see an increase in # on certain spells with it on, and using two items of that kind (robe + ring or staff + ring or staff + robe) increases the # of my highest level fire spell (ignition), but not using all three and not using only one.

Slime Squisher

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Post Monday, 3rd June 2019, 12:16

Re: Short Newperson Questions

Short answer: they stack

Slightly longer answer: at this stage of the game each enchancer increases the damage of your spells by a flat amount, which is equal to the damage increase you'd get from increasing your Int by 50%. Up to 3 enhancers stack. Vehm does not increase damage, but does increase range and spell-success, and this 'stacks' with the damage increase.

Getting to full spell-power is usually too hard to achieve. The enhancers increase your damage, even if you don't see an incease in #.

Complete answer: look at http://crawl.chaosforge.org/Spell_Power

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onomastikon

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Post Monday, 3rd June 2019, 14:53

Re: Short Newperson Questions

petercordia wrote:Short answer: they stack

Slightly longer answer: at this stage of the game each enchancer increases the damage of your spells by a flat amount, which is equal to the damage increase you'd get from increasing your Int by 50%. Up to 3 enhancers stack. Vehm does not increase damage, but does increase range and spell-success, and this 'stacks' with the damage increase.

Getting to full spell-power is usually too hard to achieve. The enhancers increase your damage, even if you don't see an incease in #.

Complete answer: look at http://crawl.chaosforge.org/Spell_Power

That isn't *quite* right, it's not a flat amount per enhancer, since each +50% multiplies the *prior* round.
However spellpower is subject to a logarithmic power step down. Which means, depending on where you start you may actually see *less* damage increase from successive bonuses, despite them stacking multiplicitively.

This is confusing and weird, and is made even more awkward to understand by virtue of the odd stepping done by the meter in terms of #'s.

As an example if you started with an imaginary 50 spellpower before step down, and put one enhancer on it, you'd get to 75 before step down, two would get you to 113, and 3 would get you to 169.

However after step down, you'd end up with (approximately, I'm doing off-the cuff calculations here) at 50 naked, 62 with one enhancer, 78 after two, and 90 after three.

Note that there's not even an increase in the power meter (#s) between putting on the first, and between the second and the third, despite all three bonuses being similar in size.
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onomastikon

Slime Squisher

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Post Monday, 3rd June 2019, 15:33

Re: Short Newperson Questions

above 50 int*skill, with N enhancers, I belief the net spell power is
  Code:
50+50*2Log(int*skill*1.5^N/50) = 50-2Log(50) + 50*2Log(int) + 50*2Log(skill) + 50*2Log(1.5)*N

hence each enhancer adds 50*2Log(1.5)=30 to the spell power.

Note this is based on the wiki (not the code), and I'm not actually certain they use the 2Log rather than the natural logarithm.
Also, 'skill' here means 2*average spell school skill + .5*spellcasting skill, or something like that.

(For most spells the damage is linearly proportional to the spell power.)

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onomastikon

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Post Monday, 3rd June 2019, 16:26

Re: Short Newperson Questions

Thank you very much for that. I'm going to stick with the "easy" answer, because, sadly, I do not understand
1. enough math to even begin to understand those last steps, I am not sure I even know what logarithm and 2log is
2. what "step down" means. I read, and failed to understand, some things about it on that wiki to which you linked, but I just don't really get the detail, only the general gist (that "step down" is supposed to generate some kind of diminishing return?)

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Post Monday, 3rd June 2019, 17:50

Re: Short Newperson Questions

EDIT: figured it out via digging :)

Slime Squisher

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Post Monday, 3rd June 2019, 18:18

Re: Short Newperson Questions

I'm impressed that you met Mennas and survived. (Without knowing anything about him in advance.)
There's probably a vault on Depths:2 which can only be accessed from Depths:3. That would explain your missing stair.

You might be able to beat Mennas if you spend enough consumables. If you go into crypt to get XP to beat Mennas, I recommend having a strategy in mind which you need to train up for (eg train pure evocations or pure mellee). Most Mennas strategies I'm aware of involve having decent melee skills and/or evocations skill. The most elegant solution is a scroll of vulnerability + a wand of paralysis/polymorph (though you need decent evocations skill for that to work). Some characters can kill him if they buff up with potions (The berserk potion is especially good against Mennas, and stacks with potions of agility). You can also kill him with evocable summons (vial of floods, box of beasts, sack of spiders, mirrors). The Fan of Gales is very valuable when fighting Mennas because it allows you to disengage. I don't know whether a scroll of summoning would do the job.

If you need more XP you can also poke your head into Hell. The vestibule of hell isn't too dangerous so long as you're aware of which monsters can trample/constrict you.

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onomastikon

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Post Monday, 3rd June 2019, 19:11

Re: Short Newperson Questions

petercordia wrote:above 50 int*skill, with N enhancers, I belief the net spell power is
  Code:
50+50*2Log(int*skill*1.5^N/50) = 50-2Log(50) + 50*2Log(int) + 50*2Log(skill) + 50*2Log(1.5)*N

hence each enhancer adds 50*2Log(1.5)=30 to the spell power.

Note this is based on the wiki (not the code), and I'm not actually certain they use the 2Log rather than the natural logarithm.
Also, 'skill' here means 2*average spell school skill + .5*spellcasting skill, or something like that.

(For most spells the damage is linearly proportional to the spell power.)

You missed the second term:
50*2Log(int*skill*1.5^N/50)
More parenthesis might make this a little clearer:
50*2Log(int*skill*(1.5^N)/50)

Which is a complicated way of saying "you get 1.5^N bonus for each enhancer, before the 2Log step-down" (where the step-down starts at 50) and yes, it does use 2Log
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Mines Malingerer

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Post Tuesday, 4th June 2019, 08:05

Re: Short Newperson Questions

Thank you. Wish I were better at math!
I think I got lucky with this Mennas person. I think the stair setup was in my favor, I was literally standing on the stairs up when I saw him, and like with any named unique I right click to see what his deal is, and he sure looked scary, especially when I saw he can use "silence". But luckily, all of the stairs were grouped all together, and he didnt have silence up when I first saw him, so I quickly got out my spellforged servitor (probably not the best spell for me to still have, but I like him) and he landed in a good spot and oddly enough, Mennas was still 2 squares away and wasted a turn or two bashing my servitor while I got a couple of shots off, then servitor died I still had enough for one casting of shatter before silence went up, and Mennas moved toward me, I immediately fled up and he didn't follow. After regenerating I went down the next stairs, and landed again 3 squares away from him (he was at my other up-stairs -- I was lucky that all the stairs were bunched together) and I think I was lucky that he started trying to cast spells at me instead of using silence and then bashing me, since my spells are stronger, and although my previous shatter cast drew chaff, I could clear that with another shatter and then put up another servitor, and got lucky again with him wasting at least two turns on the servitor, so eventually I beat him with one more stairs-dance and still more than half my HP. Feels good not to die!

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Post Wednesday, 12th June 2019, 07:56

Re: Short Newperson Questions

Sorry, is there any way to reset the game to allow me to enter new names for my characters? Whenever I start the program, it already takes over the name of my last character and I can no longer enter a new one. Am I missing the obvious?
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Spider Stomper

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Post Wednesday, 12th June 2019, 11:46

Re: Short Newperson Questions

onomastikon wrote:Sorry, is there any way to reset the game to allow me to enter new names for my characters? Whenever I start the program, it already takes over the name of my last character and I can no longer enter a new one.


Try to put the cursor over "New game" and then press backspace.

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Post Wednesday, 12th June 2019, 13:54

Re: Short Newperson Questions

Sorcerous wrote:
onomastikon wrote:Sorry, is there any way to reset the game to allow me to enter new names for my characters? Whenever I start the program, it already takes over the name of my last character and I can no longer enter a new one.


Try to put the cursor over "New game" and then press backspace.

You can also just literally start typing the new name when the program comes up, you don't have to move your cursor or hit backspace.
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