Recommend combo for WJC


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Ziggurat Zagger

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Joined: Friday, 8th May 2015, 17:51

Post Monday, 20th August 2018, 13:47

Recommend combo for WJC

I want to try WJC god, I've read learndb, wiki and WJC threads so now I have several combos to choose:
1) SpEn - lunge guarantees monster won't wake up after EH, it is claimed that confused monsters get extra damage. Sp speed allows to spam EH/Confuse
2) VSAs - if sneak stabbing does not work (lunge decreases number of stealth checks by 1), then still having high damage from martial attacks due to bites with quickblade.
3) TrMo - wall jumping will kill many monsters with UC combat. Or should I use OgGl with GSC?
Anything else?
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Monday, 20th August 2018, 14:40

Re: Recommend combo for WJC

Also maybe HO with battleaxe? As far as I understand wall jumping can attack the same monsters multiple times due to cleaving.
Underestimated: cleaving, Deep Elf, Formicid, Vehumet, EV
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Monday, 20th August 2018, 15:34

Re: Recommend combo for WJC

I recently played a VpEn^WuJian that was pretty fun and effective.

The (minor) problem with SpEn^WuJian has compared to VpEn is that the move speed actually works slightly against Wu's attacks, once you've moved into using confuse as your primary Hexing tool (once you start to have to regularly deal with more than one thing at a time). Obviously lungestabs at range 2 are great for single target kills, and EH and spriggans are amazing for that. But once you start using confuse, you're going to have to hit things several times to kill them, since confused stuff moves around, it's to your advantage to stuff as many attacks into each movement as possible (A dagger of speed is probably ideal for most of the game, although I run a dagger of venom for a long time myself, because poisoning things when your confusion stab fails to activate and kill them outright frequently kills them anyway).

Also early game with a spriggan^Wu be aware that your lungestab can fail to provide an attack (because your attack delay with a dagger is higher than your movement delay) So unlike normal speed races, you can actually fail to do a stab on a sleeping critter when you lunge, and it's possible for them to wake up and hit you back, which kind of sucks when it happens.

Overall I feel like spriggan+WuJian is a little unimpressive.

I would also suggest EE for WuStabs if you're looking for a more unusual and slightly less effective WuStab route, petrify isn't as cost effective as confuse, but having earth magic for your unhexable backup is pretty solid. (My only issue with taking Wu as an EE is that I frequently want to use my god slot to support me in some other manner than just to enhance my petrify stabs, although do I petrify-stab a lot of stuff when I play an EE.)
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VeryAngryFelid

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Monday, 20th August 2018, 15:54

Re: Recommend combo for WJC

Thank you, it looks like NaEn might be even better than VpEn?
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Monday, 20th August 2018, 16:30

Re: Recommend combo for WJC

VeryAngryFelid wrote:Also maybe HO with battleaxe? As far as I understand wall jumping can attack the same monsters multiple times due to cleaving.

Actually lunge+whirlwhind can hit the same monster multiple times with cleaving too.

Wall jump takes 20 aut (well, really twice your movement delay) to jump/move two spaces, and you do 20 aut worth of attacks, to each critter adjacent to where you land, and each attack triggers cleaving.

Moving normally takes 10 aut and lets you move one square, whirlwind will attack anything you start&ended next to, and lunge will hit things that are in front of the direction you move, so it's quite possible to step forward between two enemies, while lunging at a third, and get two whirlwind attacks and one lunge attack, I believe only the lunge is eligible for cleave, so rather than hitting each of the three critters three times, you hit two of them twice and one of them once (but lunge also enhances the damage done, so your single-hit damage will be higher.) for each attack triggered.

Since you trigger a number of attacks based on your movement delay/your attack delay, if you move delay is 1.0 and your attack delay is 0.7, you have a 42% chance during a movement to get a second full attack (with all the whirlwind/lunge stuff) in that movement.

The problem of course, with axes, is that it takes a little more XP to get to min delay, so early on Wu's going to be less effective, as when your attack delay is 1.4 your lunges are going to fail to do anything ~30% of the time.

Also fun to note is that aux attacks can trigger on whirlwind/lunge/wall jump attacks as well.
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Monday, 20th August 2018, 16:36

Re: Recommend combo for WJC

VeryAngryFelid wrote:Thank you, it looks like NaEn might be even better than VpEn?

Possibly, I am not sure if the additional attack advantages outweigh the disadvantages trying to set up advantageous positioning, but it'd be interesting to try out (I haven't tried it myself)

Also movement is going to break your constriction, which reduces the effectiveness of one of Naga's benefits.
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Monday, 20th August 2018, 17:02

Re: Recommend combo for WJC

Siegurt wrote:
VeryAngryFelid wrote:Also maybe HO with battleaxe? As far as I understand wall jumping can attack the same monsters multiple times due to cleaving.

Actually lunge+whirlwhind can hit the same monster multiple times with cleaving too.

Wall jump takes 20 aut (well, really twice your movement delay) to jump/move two spaces, and you do 20 aut worth of attacks, to each critter adjacent to where you land, and each attack triggers cleaving.

Moving normally takes 10 aut and lets you move one square, whirlwind will attack anything you start&ended next to, and lunge will hit things that are in front of the direction you move, so it's quite possible to step forward between two enemies, while lunging at a third, and get two whirlwind attacks and one lunge attack, I believe only the lunge is eligible for cleave, so rather than hitting each of the three critters three times, you hit two of them twice and one of them once (but lunge also enhances the damage done, so your single-hit damage will be higher.) for each attack triggered.

Since you trigger a number of attacks based on your movement delay/your attack delay, if you move delay is 1.0 and your attack delay is 0.7, you have a 42% chance during a movement to get a second full attack (with all the whirlwind/lunge stuff) in that movement.

The problem of course, with axes, is that it takes a little more XP to get to min delay, so early on Wu's going to be less effective, as when your attack delay is 1.4 your lunges are going to fail to do anything ~30% of the time.

Also fun to note is that aux attacks can trigger on whirlwind/lunge/wall jump attacks as well.

Hm, it looks like with some experimentation that lunge doesn't trigger cleave any more, which is too bad.
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Slime Squisher

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Post Monday, 20th August 2018, 17:17

Re: Recommend combo for WJC

I had a lot of fun as a Mi^WJC with Long blades. No idea if it actually procs extra headbutts/ripostes, but I like to think that it did.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Monday, 20th August 2018, 17:28

Re: Recommend combo for WJC

Sorry, Mi is out of the question, I have won one yesterday ;)
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Slime Squisher

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Post Monday, 20th August 2018, 17:29

Re: Recommend combo for WJC

Siegurt wrote:Hm, it looks like with some experimentation that lunge doesn't trigger cleave any more, which is too bad.

That's too bad, do whirlwind and wall jumps trigger cleave ? (just picture it, axenado !)
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Tartarus Sorceror

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Post Monday, 20th August 2018, 18:03

Re: Recommend combo for WJC

I would recommend some total tank with 40+ AC that would be comfortable with atheist, because Wu Jian is heckin weak. Half the weakness comes from the fact that Wu Jian is incompatible with proper corridor and killhole 1v1 tactics.

Most disappointing is Heavenly Storm, which costs a ton of piety, but gives no defensive bonus, so you're taking just as much damage as you would be fighting them all at once in the open and unbuffed. I've often had to abort Heavenly Storm after only a couple turns because I was taking too much damage. Heavenly Storm just gives a slaying bonus. It could be compared to drinking a Potion of Might, casting Song of Slaying, and then fighting a whole bunch of dangerous enemies right out in the open. Is that wise? Not usually. Is it worth 21-31 Piety? Cmon.
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Slime Squisher

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Post Monday, 20th August 2018, 20:10

Re: Recommend combo for WJC

Berder wrote:Most disappointing is Heavenly Storm, which costs a ton of piety, but gives no defensive bonus, so you're taking just as much damage as you would be fighting them all at once in the open and unbuffed. I've often had to abort Heavenly Storm after only a couple turns because I was taking too much damage. Heavenly Storm just gives a slaying bonus. It could be compared to drinking a Potion of Might, casting Song of Slaying, and then fighting a whole bunch of dangerous enemies right out in the open. Is that wise? Not usually. Is it worth 21-31 Piety? Cmon.

You're a bit unfair with Heavenly Storm : it gives you fog (which is really good defensively) and incentivises you to use martial attacks, getting you to move around the battlefield. As a result, you never get surrounded, especially if you're a bit clever with the pinning effect of Whirlwind attacks. That said, I agree it's overpriced.
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Monday, 20th August 2018, 22:56

Re: Recommend combo for WJC

Fingolfin wrote:
Siegurt wrote:Hm, it looks like with some experimentation that lunge doesn't trigger cleave any more, which is too bad.

That's too bad, do whirlwind and wall jumps trigger cleave ? (just picture it, axenado !)

On a little more careful experimentation, it looks like cleave *is* triggered by lunge, but not against targets that are also whirlwinded in the same attack(?) So you can't cleave-whirlwind the same target, but you can cleave something standing adjacent to your lunge target.

Also whirlwind doesn't appear to trigger cleave, even if there's an eligible cleave target that's un-whirwinded adjacent to a thing you whirlwinded.
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Monday, 20th August 2018, 23:19

Re: Recommend combo for WJC

Fingolfin wrote:incentivises you to use martial attacks, getting you to move around the battlefield.
you can make the exact same moves without heavenly storm active

heavenly storm is mainly useful for the super-fog effect imo, it's great for ninjaing zot:5, or just escaping in general in places where you don't mind making noise. it's no sanctuary though

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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Tuesday, 21st August 2018, 10:44

Re: Recommend combo for WJC

I decided to use VSEn. Axes/polearms are bad with WJC, short blades + aux attacks + stabbing are the best.
Underestimated: cleaving, Deep Elf, Formicid, Vehumet, EV
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Tuesday, 21st August 2018, 15:28

Re: Recommend combo for WJC

VeryAngryFelid wrote:I decided to use VSEn. Axes/polearms are bad with WJC, short blades + aux attacks + stabbing are the best.

Yeah, the martial attacks for WJC can be more thought of as adding a weird off-brand version of reach and cleave to whatever you're using, so weapons with reach and cleave are least benefited by the abilities.

Maces and unarmed get Ok benefit (I've played a fun troll claws WJC before) and long blades would be Ok, if riposte wasn't straight up worse than the extra damage you lose.

Stabbing definitely provides the largest benefit from WJC's martial attacks, no question.
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Tuesday, 21st August 2018, 18:51

Re: Recommend combo for WJC

From the VSEn^WJC game that I started a couple days ago, this is one movement rightward, lunged+whirlwinded against 3 confused critters, 1.0 turns (Well, +3 to confuse them as they approached):
  Code:
 You lunge at the water moccasin, in a flurry of attacks.
 You puncture the water moccasin! Your bite misses the water moccasin.
 The water moccasin is heavily wounded.
 You strike the helpless water moccasin from behind!
 You skewer the water moccasin like a kebab!!!
 You kill the water moccasin!
 The Council accepts your kill.
 Your Ice Magic skill increases to level 3!
 You spin and attack the basilisk repeatedly.
 You puncture the basilisk! Your bite misses the basilisk.
 The basilisk is moderately wounded.
 You hit the basilisk.
 The basilisk is heavily wounded.
 You puncture the basilisk!
 The basilisk is severely wounded.
 You catch the helpless basilisk completely off-guard!
 You spit the basilisk like a pig!!!
 You kill the basilisk!
 The Council accepts your kill.
 You spin and attack the hippogriff repeatedly.
 You hit the hippogriff.
 The hippogriff is heavily wounded.
 You strike the helpless hippogriff from behind!
 You stick the hippogriff like a pincushion!!!
 You kill the hippogriff!
 The Council accepts your kill.

Admittedly it's with a +12 quick blade (vampire's tooth), 8 short blades, and 14 stealth, but still, I am amused.

For reference:
  Code:
Health: 66/66      AC: 10    Str: 23    XL:     14   Next: 4%
Magic:  22/33      EV: 17    Int: 19    God:    Wu Jian [*****.]
Gold:   691        SH:  6    Dex: 20    Spells: 1/25 levels left

rFire    . . .     SeeInvis .   a - +12 Vampire's Tooth {vamp}
rCold    + . .     Gourm    .   l - +0 buckler
rNeg     . . .     Faith    .   V - +0 robe "Pomneari" {rElec Str+8 Dex+2 Stlth+}
rPois    +         Spirit   +   L - +2 helmet
rElec    +         Reflect  .   G - +0 cloak
rCorr    .         Harm     .   o - +2 pair of gloves
MR       +....                  h - +0 pair of boots of the Harvest {rPois}
Stlth    +++++++...             (no amulet)
HPRegen  1.01/turn              D - ring of magical power
MPRegen  0.23/turn              j - ring "Juut" {rC+ Str+3 Dex+3}

You know the following spells:

 Your Spells              Type           Power        Failure   Level  Hunger
c - Confuse               Hex            ######..     1%          3    ##.....
e - Ensorcelled Hibernat  Hex/Ice        #####.       1%          2    None
m - Metabolic Englaciati  Hex/Ice        #####.....   9%          5    #####..
o - Corona                Hex            ######.      1%          1    None
t - Tukima's Dance        Hex            ######..     1%          3    ##.....
z - Dazzling Spray        Conj/Hex       ####..       1%          3    ##.....
G - Shroud of Golubria    Chrm/Tloc      ###.......   4%          2    None
R - Regeneration          Chrm/Necr      ###.......   10%         3    ##.....
Y - Song of Slaying       Chrm           ####....     1%          2    None

Skill      XL: |  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14 |
---------------+-------------------------------------------+-----
Stealth        |     4              5  7  8 10 12 13 14    | 14.0
Short Blades   |     1     2     3     5  7  8             |  8.0
Fighting       |        1     2                 4          |  4.0
Spellcasting   |           3                 4        6    |  6.0
Hexes          |              4  5     7  9 10 11 12 14    | 14.2
Ice Magic      |                 1  2                    3 |  3.1
Charms         |                                4  6       |  6.0
Shields        |                                   4       |  4.0
Dodging        |                                   2  6    |  6.4

Action                   |  1- 3 |  4- 6 |  7- 9 | 10-12 | 13-15 || total
-------------------------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------++-------
Melee: Dagger            |    51 |   139 |   125 |       |       ||   315
       Bite              |     6 |    29 |    43 |   123 |    39 ||   240
       Quick blade       |       |       |    71 |   378 |   142 ||   591
Throw: Stone             |       |       |     1 |     1 |       ||     2
 Cast: Corona            |     2 |     2 |     2 |       |       ||     6
       Ensorcelled Hiber |     3 |    28 |    29 |    60 |    34 ||   154
       Confuse           |       |    17 |    38 |   106 |    42 ||   203
       Dazzling Spray    |       |       |     1 |       |       ||     1
Invok: Lunge             |       |       |       |    71 |    34 ||   105
       Whirlwind         |       |       |       |    38 |     5 ||    43
Evoke: Wand              |       |       |       |       |     1 ||     1
  Use: Scroll            |     1 |     7 |     8 |    13 |     2 ||    31
       Potion            |       |       |       |     1 |       ||     1
 Stab: Sleeping          |     8 |    21 |    36 |    67 |    44 ||   176
       Confused          |       |     5 |    14 |    34 |    24 ||    77
       Distracted        |       |       |     1 |     2 |       ||     3
  Eat: Chunk             |     1 |     8 |    12 |    21 |     5 ||    47
       Ration            |       |     1 |     2 |     2 |     1 ||     6
Armor: Robe              |    12 |    25 |    52 |    50 |     5 ||   144
Dodge: Dodged            |    35 |    71 |    93 |    80 |    15 ||   294
Block: Buckler           |       |       |       |    12 |     5 ||    17
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VeryAngryFelid

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Friday, 24th August 2018, 17:08

Re: Recommend combo for WJC

I was lucky to find a dagger of distortion on D:9 and I like it a lot with special attacks. Attacking 4 times after wall jump or just twice after whirlwind kills/banishes/blinks/teleports most monsters. It feels better than cleaving.
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Slime Squisher

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Post Saturday, 25th August 2018, 19:34

Re: Recommend combo for WJC

I'm going to try a Deep Dwarf.

WJC doesn't seem to care about mana so using a pure melee background without any other way to heal other that DD's innate might just work using +3 Evo so I don't run out of MP.

Lets see how it goes

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