Human vs Demonspawn

[Strongpoint]

I just try to figure is there any build in which humans better than demonspawns? I can't see any, with the only exception of healers\paladins\zin priests.

If you play demonspawn:
1) fighters are better with all that mutations, you are guaranteed to get either AC or ranged attacks, or additional unarmed attacks or regeneration or....
2) Casters get almost the same aptitudes, necromancy is even better + mutations
3) Gods are slightly more useful for you due to +2 invocations
4) You can hybridize as freely as humans do
5) You get slightly higher attributes

And for this you spend 19% more xp on some skills + 60% to get a level... It's look a lot, but it's less than -1XL for any given character, do you really see a big difference between 14XL and 13 XL ?

[radzia]

I think about plain way to buff humans,

it would be cool if humans could reach up to 29 level and 29 skill, due to they learning capability, i know that, then we will crack magic number 27, but hey they would be still plain, buffed, and there will be something uncommon about them

[KoboldLord]

Humans will never get shafted by a racial mutation that is totally inappropriate to their current style of play. Start a demonspawn conjuror? Watch the edge of your LOS creep in until monsters have to take one diagonal step to get you in melee anyway. Going Okawaru? Enjoy Demonic Guardian 1 the moment you level up, and no upgrade until L23 or so. Hoping to train fighting? Popcorn monsters now self-destruct on your spines before you even get a swing in. Found some early boots of running? Hooves.

[MrMisterMonkey]

Quoted from viewtopic.php?p=800#p800

I'm pretty sure you guys are missing the point of humans. If you want fancy perks, don't play them.

I couldn't agree more. Also, there is no other race as versatile as them. That's actually quite a perk.

Elaborating, humans shouldn't change, but if demonspawn are overpowered, they should.
As for perks of Hu over DS, faster leveling is quite meaningful for picking up spells quickly and other things that check XL (like HP unless DS get some ridiculous racial HP or nonsense like that).

[szanth]

I think the better question is why would you use humans when you could use hill orcs?

[danr]

I think the better question is why would you use humans when you could use hill orcs?

If you want to be able to cast spells, for one.

Also, let's not forget that there are supposed to be some challenge classes. Humans though have a double function as also being the "template" species as well.

[KoboldLord]

Getting a mutation that's bad for your playstyle is only a problem if you refuse to adapt your playstyle.

Wait, what? How do you adapt your playstyle to get around Demonic Guardian if you foolishly risked going Okawaru? What does Vehumet offer if you are Attuned to Shadows? Deity choice is all but forced long before you see all your mutation facets, and trying to adapt this particular part of your play style is a death sentence if you don't already have a very experienced character.

I'm not saying restricted choices is a bad thing, but you can't just pretend there's no restriction at all!

[Kate]

What does Vehumet offer if you are Attuned to Shadows?

Full LOS crystal spears. Also shift-firing out of your LOS.

Demonic Guardian with gods that give penance for allies dying is pretty silly though, yeah.

[KoboldLord]

A couple of piety points each. If you only have Demonic Guardian 1 rather than 2 or 3, you'll crap out a horde of imps the moment you approach any high-tension situation, which will all go down in one hit. You'll then continue involuntarily summoning hilariously underpowered allies until the tension goes away. Since tension is not permanently avoidable while playing the game, you're basically giving up any hope of getting gifts at any point ever, and a deity that provides only might potions is a poor deity indeed.

[Strongpoint]

KoboldLord, yep you can get bad mutations for your playstyle, but also you can get ridiculously good mutations for the playstyle. In usual situation you'll simply get good mutations for a small price

And this problem is most dangerous for the specialists, but my point is that demonspawns make clearly better hybrids than humans, and it's really sad for me.

Also, let's not forget that there are supposed to be some challenge classes.

shouldn't challenge classes be grayed out, then?

BTW, why humans have one of the worst attribute gains? Most races get attribute once per 4 or 3 levels, but humans get attribute once per 5 levels?

Problem with humans is pretty simple - character level doesn't matter much in crawl. Try playing pure summoner, it's equivalent to 200 exp and -4 to aptitudes if you kill everything with the summons and it's not crippling. Apttitudes matter more, but still...:

Some math: 1) you want to train to two skills from 0 to equal rate, lets say level 7. They both have same xp to skill points ratio

If you have 0\0 aptitudes you need 2100 + 2100 (4200) skillpoints
If you have -1\+1 then you need 2499 +1764(4263) skillpoints
If you have -2\+2 then you need 2961 + 1491 (4452) skillpoints
If you have -3\+3 then you need 3528 + 1239 (4767) skillpoints
If you have -2\+3 then you need 2961 + 1239 (4200) skillpoints
If you have -3\+4 then you need 3528 + 1050 (4628) skillpoints


Lets talk about three skills:
0\0\0 2100+2100+2100 = 6200 skillpoints
-1\-1\+2 2499+2499+1491 = 6489 skillpoints
-2\-1\+3 2961+2499+1231 = 6691 skillpoints
+1\+1\-2 1764+ 1764+ 2961= 6489 skillpoints
-2\-2\+4 2961+2961+1050 = 6972 skillpoints

4 skills
0\0\0\0 = 2100 * 4 = 8400
-1\-1\-1\+3 = 2499 * 3 + 1231 = 8728
0\-2\-1\+3 = 8891
-2\-1\+2\+1 = 8761

Interesting, isn't it? Human advantage at hybridizing doesn't look so big? It's not that simple in a real game, some skills are harder to victory dance, usually even hybrids don't need exactly same levels in skills and so on but it only makes right +2\-2 better for the hybrid than 0\0. What humans good at is adapting to found items, but any preplanned build is weak. Hybrid or not, you can find better. And even in an adapting game, Demonspawns are better

[KoboldLord]

Sorry, I just can't accept the blithe assumption that normal play is to restart your demonspawn until you get all the mutation facets you want, or at least avoid the ones you don't want. Leaving aside the near-cheating nature of start-scumming, you'll typically be post-Lair by the time you see your last facet. At this point, a human character would probably be a near-certain 3-rune ascension. Can you just plan to throw all that away if you get a really troublesome racial mutation?

So unless you're willing to potentially waste many hours of play on a single attempt to start-scum your mutations, you have to avoid certain strategies. Humans have no such strategic restrictions.

[Kate]

Considering that Nightstalker and Demonic Guardian are the only facets that actually have an unavoidable effect on your game (and both are Tier 2 so you'll probably see at least one level of them fairly early), I'm not sure I agree that there are all these racial mutations that'll cripple your playstyle.

Pretty much everything else is either strictly good or can just be ignored if you don't feel like changing your playstyle - Spiny doesn't do anything if you wear heavy armour or avoid melee, but it has no negative effect, Icemail's +10AC isn't great if you're a fire caster but you still get rC+ and potion conservation, etc.

[KoboldLord]

Nightstalker and Demonic Guardian are enough to make a difference, though, aren't they? I'm not touching Okawaru again with an undifferentiated demonspawn, that's for sure.

Spikes gave me trouble specifically as a non-hybrid caster trying to pick up a little fighting for the extra hit points. Every time I tried to train fighting on a weak target, it would kill itself on the spikes, often before I even got a turn. Training fighting on strong targets was, of course, still suicidal. I ended up with less health than I usually have when I play deep elves.