duvessa's spell guide for cool people


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Mines Malingerer

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Post Wednesday, 5th July 2017, 23:27

Re: duvessa's spell guide for cool people

I haven't found the Fulminant Prism. Has it been removed, or did i just miss it?

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Wednesday, 5th July 2017, 23:35

Re: duvessa's spell guide for cool people

I moved it to the level 1 spoiler tag as a joke. I've moved it to the correct place now.

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Lord Haart

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Post Saturday, 8th July 2017, 01:57

Re: duvessa's spell guide for cool people

duvessa wrote:Freeze
Does 1d(3+floor(power/3)) cold damage. (Yes, power 24 and 25 are the same.)
Easily the best level 1 direct damage spell. High AC-ignoring damage and it even slows adders for you. Decent even in Lair since there are so many cold-blooded monsters (there are better options against hydras, though). Not really useful after that.

What about the mini-stun? Does it still have the mini-stun?

Summon Butterflies
Summons min(8,2+1d3+floor(random2(power)/10)) butterflies with a summon duration of 3. Excellent for clogging corridors and blocking line of fire; any character that can cast spells should learn this spell. Butterflies do have 25 EV, so they don't reliably block projectiles.

Can prevent monster spawning (mostly just useful for blocking hell effects I guess) and can be used to influence blinks, maybe some other niche things.

Passwall
Mainly for stabbing; usually too slow to be a better escape option than walking away. Excellent for muckrobin as it allows you to hide in some arrival vaults, protecting you from most OOD spawns.

Displaces monsters, which is probably just noticeable in certain vaults if you want to kill a human or zombie in a box or something. Used to be able to drown you but I don't know what it does now instead - does it just fail if there isn't appropriate terrain on the other side?

Teleport Other
This is a really bad hex, but a really bad hex is still pretty good. Unlike other hexes it doesn't help you kill the monster but it does have a good chance of temporarily getting rid of it after a few turns.

Xom seems to love this spell in a really weird way.

Control Undead
I'm pretty sure this is a pet spell for at least one dev because that's the only way I can explain it 1. replacing Dispel Undead on Ne, 2. being guaranteed by Kiku while Dispel Undead isn't, 3. still existing while Enslavement was removed despite it doing the same thing. So yeah, this spell is just as busted as Enslavement.

I think that was my idea; it was a pet spell of mine at the time but I'm no longer protecting it so we can get rid of this one now.

Had some other questions and comments but they're especially minor.
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Saturday, 8th July 2017, 02:07

Re: duvessa's spell guide for cool people

mikee wrote:
duvessa wrote:Freeze
Does 1d(3+floor(power/3)) cold damage. (Yes, power 24 and 25 are the same.)
Easily the best level 1 direct damage spell. High AC-ignoring damage and it even slows adders for you. Decent even in Lair since there are so many cold-blooded monsters (there are better options against hydras, though). Not really useful after that.

What about the mini-stun? Does it still have the mini-stun?
No.
mikee wrote:
Passwall
Mainly for stabbing; usually too slow to be a better escape option than walking away. Excellent for muckrobin as it allows you to hide in some arrival vaults, protecting you from most OOD spawns.

Displaces monsters, which is probably just noticeable in certain vaults if you want to kill a human or zombie in a box or something. Used to be able to drown you but I don't know what it does now instead - does it just fail if there isn't appropriate terrain on the other side?
Yes.

Dungeon Dilettante

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Post Wednesday, 19th July 2017, 14:47

Re: duvessa's spell guide for cool people

Thanks, this is really helpful. had been having trouble relearning the spells, this breaks them down really well.

I found what you said pretty accurate across the board. Ignition was really helpful for the royal jelly. easier to get online by slime pits than firestorm and in more books, plus arguably just better against TRJ due to the damage>summon>more damage loop. but otherwise firestorm was king.

Mines Malingerer

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Post Tuesday, 25th July 2017, 11:23

Re: duvessa's spell guide for cool people

duvessa wrote:Necromutation
One of the worst spells in the game. The only places where this form's benefit outweighs its drawbacks are Tomb, Coc, and certain zig levels, and getting it for Tomb is massive overkill (even getting Statue Form for Tomb makes more sense). It is genuinely very good in ziggurats, but those aren't part of the real game and you have unlimited xp by then anyway.
Elsewhere, you are trading the ability to use potions and the two best necromancy spells in the game (Borgnjor's and DDoor) for the privilege of having 6 more AC, a necromancy enhancer that doesn't matter because you can't cast the best necromancy spells, and some resistances that don't matter either. And it's level 8 with an awkward second school.


Wait, was it nerfed recently or something?

This was my favorite spell ever because it removed hunger completely, allowing Fire Storm spam without caring about spell hunger. The resistances were also awesome…

The wiki agrees with me:

Having this spell is a game-changer. No hunger means that you can play like a mummy (but with the aptitudes and stats of your race), as long as you recast the spell once in awhile. Spam your big spells, wear amulet of regeneration and abuse Sif Muna's channeling; the hunger won't affect your living form as long as you do it all as a lich. Unlike a real mummy, you can just stop recasting this spell and heal your stats and rot as a living person. You can also go back to the world of the living to kill pesky creatures that use Dispel Undead.


Though that article is marked as only up to date with version 0.14! Did something change?

bel

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Post Tuesday, 25th July 2017, 11:32

Re: duvessa's spell guide for cool people

Nvm.
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Vaults Vanquisher

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Post Tuesday, 25th July 2017, 12:27

Re: duvessa's spell guide for cool people

Nothing has changed, and Duvessa's reasons have always been valid. NM is an expensive spell with some benefits and some drawbacks. I would agree that you are better off learning Death's Door or Borg to avoid death in the Tomb or Ziggurats (or any any other situation). In the extended game, where you are likely to use NM, spell hunger should not be that much of a problem to justify learning this spell, except maybe if you are a spriggan.
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nago

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Post Tuesday, 25th July 2017, 12:59

Re: duvessa's spell guide for cool people

floatboth wrote:[...]
Wait, was it nerfed recently or something?

This was my favorite spell ever because it removed hunger completely, allowing Fire Storm spam without caring about spell hunger. The resistances were also awesome…

Though that article is marked as only up to date with version 0.14! Did something change?

The spell has not significantly changed.

In my view, spell hunger is an annoyance, rather than a true restraint. Most areas of the game have edible comestible corpses, and on top of that there is usually plenty of perma-food around. That means reducing hunger does not make Necromutation noticeably stronger.

The resistances can be useful. 6 AC is nice, 40 MR if OK. rPois+++/rC+ are only marginally useful for character that can have enough XP to cast Necromutation. rN+++ is a bit more useful in extended, but again not amazingly so, as other sources exist.

Torment immunity would be the most common reason for enjoying Necromutation I would guess. It's nice in areas where Torment is very common and a significant threat, like Tomb, CoC and certain Zig floors. In many other places Necromutation can be a serious liability, as many very strong effects are blocked by it, notably quaffing potions of curing, haste, berserk, agility, invisibility, resistance, etc.

Getting confused anywhere moderately threatening can be really bad, because then scrolls, spells, movement and some invocations are unavailable too! And of course it's possible to get 'more confused'.

Necromutation also blocks some of the best necromancy spells in the game (Regeneration, Death's Door, Borgnjor's Revification), which seems strange because anyone able to cast Necromut can usually also cast the other high-level necromancy spells.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Tuesday, 25th July 2017, 23:20

Re: duvessa's spell guide for cool people

floatboth wrote:The wiki agrees with me
Is this supposed to sound like a good thing?

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nago, Nasst

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Post Wednesday, 26th July 2017, 08:50

Re: duvessa's spell guide for cool people

duvessa wrote:Is this supposed to sound like a good thing?


I think the point was that the opinion is shared by other people also.
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Post Wednesday, 26th July 2017, 09:00

Re: duvessa's spell guide for cool people

I believe argument about Borgnjor's Revification is weird, the spell makes Necromutation more attractive IMHO. I mean I always get Borgnjor's Revification online first and then Necromutation becomes something like level 7 Transmutations instead of level 8 Necromacy/Transmutations. Would you honestly go for single school level 7 spell which can make you laugh at torment and death curses?

Argument about Death's Door looks a bit weird to me too, I tried using the spell multiple times and every time it was very dangerous when it expired (especially in Hell with its direct damage out of nowhere effects, and that was in old versions where wand of HW still existed!). I believe in about 90% cases where you want to cast Death's Door, you would not need it if you were under Necromutation. The rest 10% are covered by Borgnjor's Revification easily.
Or just point me to a game where Death's Door was spammed by a non-Fe and non-Sp (fast species with tiny HP after 1-2 torments).
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bel

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Post Wednesday, 26th July 2017, 09:17

Re: duvessa's spell guide for cool people

VeryAngryFelid wrote:
duvessa wrote:Is this supposed to sound like a good thing?


I think the point was that the opinion is shared by other people also.

I don't want to crap on the good people who write stuff on the wiki, but this just means that one person agreed with poster on something. Who knows who that is, and why they said whatever they said.

I looked at their contribution history and found this guide for DEFE by the same person who wrote the Necromutation stuff. They say that they have won twice in their Crawl career. In the guide, they say that the first thing one should do is to train spellcasting (alone) to 14, before touching any of the other skills. This is weird advice, to say the least.

The wiki should be used sparingly and with a decent sized grain of salt. I used it myself (and do it now) when I was starting out. The bare facts there are usually more-or-less fine, the commentary much more dubious (as the poster noted, it has not been updated since 0.14).

Besides, there's nothing really objectionable in the stuff written about Necromutation; the advantages and disadvantages listed are correct. What people differ on is whether these advantages are worth the cost or not. Usually, extended has plenty of XP anyway, that some wastage is not a big deal. The tone of "this spell is great" or "this spell is crap" is a much different thing, of course.

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VeryAngryFelid

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Post Wednesday, 26th July 2017, 09:49

Re: duvessa's spell guide for cool people

bel wrote:In the guide, they say that the first thing one should do is to train spellcasting (alone) to 14, before touching any of the other skills. This is weird advice, to say the least.


You interested me enough to read much of that guide. I see that it was written when rPois allowed to eat poisonous chunks so the advice is not as bad as it looks, I still remember how annoying it was to starve with lots of permafood because of nausea. I imagine it might be even worse for casters who spam conjuration spells. This is what happens when game hides damage and accuracy from player: people start to believe spell power is irrelevant and rush to fireball for accuracy :)
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Snake Sneak

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Post Saturday, 2nd September 2017, 09:41

Re: duvessa's spell guide for cool people

Obvious in context, but I think meph cloud means to say that monsters with HD >=21 have a 49 in 50 chance to resist confusion?

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Post Monday, 11th September 2017, 07:25

Re: duvessa's spell guide for cool people

4Hooves2Appendages wrote:I've seen people suggest that Discord is good in Zot, but I haven't tried it myself.


Works very well on draconian packs, who have low MR, travel in packs, and are one of the few Natural-type groups in the endgame. I'll let others speak to whether it's strategically sound to invest in it.

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Post Tuesday, 24th October 2017, 17:34

Re: duvessa's spell guide for cool people

Summon Hydra has a "durationuration".

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duvessa

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Post Wednesday, 6th December 2017, 16:52

Re: duvessa's spell guide for cool people

This guide is most charitably described as inconsistent and most accurately as bad.

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duvessa

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Post Wednesday, 6th December 2017, 17:31

Re: duvessa's spell guide for cool people

GuideCritic wrote:This guide is most charitably described as inconsistent and most accurately as bad.


This critique was overpriced and can only be described as both bland and an assault on the finer senses, in the same way that one might languish on the cold grey moors of England without the faintist hint of tea, or a war, or a sunrise on the horizon. It is as if the critic has critiqueéd only for the sake of criticism, with no hope or desire to affect real change in the human condition. It left me..the same as when I came: Sad, and longing for meaningful companionship.

2/10, would not critique again.
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Abyss Ambulator

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Post Wednesday, 6th December 2017, 17:46

Re: duvessa's spell guide for cool people

Eh, just lay back and think of England.
I Feel the Need - the Need for Beer
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Post Wednesday, 6th December 2017, 18:18

Re: duvessa's spell guide for cool people

Okay fine, guess I DO have to elaborate a little.

Some entries are very good and informative and teach us cool tricks you can do with spells, so props to that. Others, not so much...

Some spells have othing but the technical description of it, and, while certainly useful, is not exactly what I expect people looking on help with spells to expect from this guide.
Also sometimes the technical side of things gets a little too overbearing at times and adds a lot of clutter with little relevant information.

You say yourself no anecdotes, but many of your entries don't even offer as much, it's "this spell is a-gud and this a-spell is a bad".
Why is good? Why is it bad? Who should learn it? How should it be used, what can it be used for etc. That's what people banging their head against the desk because they died the 1000th time playing a spell-using character come looking for in a guide.
Everything containing "no personal experience" and "not much to say about it" could use some fleshing out.

Take haunt for example. There's plenty of interesting stuff to say about it since it is quite different from other summoning spells: it is smite-targeted, requires a target and expires shortly after the target dies, the wraiths often apply slow to even tough monsters and applying haunt multiple times can take care of almost any foe. Other summons can have trouble taking down key targets that are far away from you, especially if there's something in the way; haunt is maybe not the optimal but the in-the-same-school solution can deal with that due to it's smite targeting and tendency to surround the victim.

Overall, the guide could do with a little bit less of sodium. I'm sure your opinions on game balance are all fine and dondo, but they have lost little here, you are here to teach us about dem spells; there are better places to discuss game balance.
"X/Y is still broken, period." Is not useful information. Telling us that it is very good and why and how to use the spell would be. Also either don't refer to nerfs or at least be more specific about the version/nature of the nerf, if it adds anything of value to the entry. Use overpowered/underpowered/broken less.

Also refrain from stuff like "if you don't do it like that, you are wrong anyway". It is not necessary in any way.

Always assume that you are explaining stuff to a complete noob.

PS: Hydra form's heads cannot be chopped off, it has a fixed head count once you activate it. There, so nobody can say I'm only criticizing witout helping.

PPS: Yeah Cigutovi's isn't great overall, but it is better than Ozo's in one aspect (the other being SH): It can be used with any armour type. That probably doesn't sweeten the deal enough, but is worth mentioning for completeness.
And while on the subject of Ozo's, always expect to never find it in your game when assessing the defense of forms.

Dungeon Dilettante

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Post Wednesday, 6th December 2017, 18:44

Re: duvessa's spell guide for cool people

Now thats a spicy a-meatball!

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Post Wednesday, 6th December 2017, 18:47

Re: duvessa's spell guide for cool people

Shtopit wrote:Eh, just lay back and think of England.

It is England which bores me so. I should rather be hunting lions in Africa, or sailing the cape to the southern colonies, or even trying my hand at the till in the New World. Anything but England.

bel

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Post Wednesday, 6th December 2017, 19:36

Re: duvessa's spell guide for cool people

GuideCritic wrote:Some spells have othing but the technical description of it, and, while certainly useful, is not exactly what I expect people looking on help with spells to expect from this guide.

I can't parse this sentence. The guide violated your expectations, or it violated your expectations of what other people would expect?
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Post Thursday, 7th December 2017, 11:45

Re: duvessa's spell guide for cool people

Then I guess that, when mothers of young brides recommended them just to lay back and think of England on their wedding night, they actually meant "Don't get too excited".
I Feel the Need - the Need for Beer
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Post Thursday, 7th December 2017, 21:23

Re: duvessa's spell guide for cool people

@guidecritic - I agree with most of your points, but I think the critical difference is just who duvessa intended the guide for vs who you think the guide is intended for. Duvessa's targeting experienced players who already know how most of the spells work, have won crawl (probably several times) etc. You could say these people need the guide less, but the guide also serves as a way to vent frustration over things that are too strong, or too weak, poorly designed, etc.

PS. Hydra form is terrible and it really needs to give halfway decent defenses to be useable.

PPS. Necromutation should be used to avoid torment if you have no other solution to it (such as just killing things quickly first, having high defenses/regen, or statue form). I don't get why people would cast necromutation for spell hunger - if spell hunger is really, really bothering you, eliminate it entirely the cool way - worship chei. You only need 37 int (and 27 spellcasting) to make level 9 spells hungerless.

Here's a sample morgue with hungerless firestorm and tornado: http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/tasonir/mor ... 213819.txt

I started that character with Vehumet, but switched to Makhleb for repeated ziggs - even with Makhleb it still had 39 int, so hungerless level 9 spells. I don't play very many casters so I don't really have great examples, I should probably play a more pure chei mage soon. When I do "mages" I tend to break my usual form and pick some other god too.

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Post Thursday, 7th December 2017, 22:42

Re: duvessa's spell guide for cool people

guidecriticcritic wrote:
GuideCritic wrote:This guide is most charitably described as inconsistent and most accurately as bad.


This critique was overpriced and can only be described as both bland and an assault on the finer senses,


Do we even have a captcha on forum registrations?
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