Octopode Transmuter Advice

Thursday, 28th September 2017, 14:50 by Alphaeus

Code:: Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.20.1-1-g8b1a95d (webtiles) character file. 2023 Alphaeus the Changer (level 9, 0/91 HPs) Began as an Octopode Transmuter on Sept 28, 2017. Was an Initiate of Cheibriados. Succumbed to a hornet's poison ... on level 7 of the Dungeon. The game lasted 00:39:22 (8355 turns). Alphaeus the Changer (Octopode Transmuter) Turns: 8355, Time: 00:39:23 Health: 0/91 AC: 27 Str: 13 XL: 9 Next: 23% Magic: 15/17 EV: 2 Int: 24 God: Cheibriados [......] Gold: 348 SH: 2 Dex: 16 Spells: 3/19 levels left rFire . . . SeeInvis + - Unarmed rCold + + . Gourm . (no shield) rNeg + + + Faith . (helmet currently unavailable) rPois + Spirit . u - +2 amulet of reflection rElec + Reflect + f - +3 ring of protection rCorr + Harm . g - +3 ring of dexterity MR +.... NoTele + h - ring of see invisible Stlth +++....... C - ring of protection from magic Regen 0.3/turn H - ring of ice MPRegen 0.2/turn I - ring of stealth (no ring) (no ring) @: brilliant, lethally poisoned (0 -> -10), tree-form, resistant, very slightly contaminated, slowed, very slow A: almost no armour, stealthy swim, (amphibious), 8 rings, (constrict 8), clever 1 a: Bend Time, Renounce Religion You were on level 7 of the Dungeon. You worshipped Cheibriados. Cheibriados was noncommittal. You were not hungry. You were a tree. You visited 2 branches of the dungeon, and saw 9 of its levels. You collected 348 gold pieces. Inventory: Missiles a - 140 arrows q - 3 tomahawks of returning (quivered) Armour d - a +0 shield Magical Staves x - an uncursed staff of summoning P - an uncursed staff of poison Jewellery f - a +3 ring of protection (left branch) g - a +3 ring of dexterity (right branch) h - a ring of see invisible (on tentacle) u - a +2 amulet of reflection (around neck) C - a ring of protection from magic (on tentacle) D - an uncursed amulet of rage H - a ring of ice (on tentacle) I - a ring of stealth (on tentacle) Wands s - a wand of disintegration (11/24) y - a wand of confusion (25/48) N - a wand of confusion (35/48) O - a wand of polymorph (13/24) Scrolls e - 2 scrolls of fear {unknown} k - 3 scrolls of identify l - a scroll of amnesia {unknown} m - 4 scrolls of magic mapping {unknown} o - 3 scrolls of teleportation {unknown} p - 4 scrolls of remove curse {unknown} r - 5 scrolls of immolation {unknown} t - a scroll of blinking {unknown} v - 2 scrolls of enchant armour {unknown} z - 3 scrolls of enchant weapon {unknown} G - a scroll of brand weapon {unknown} L - 2 scrolls of summoning {unknown} Potions n - a potion of flight w - a potion of lignification K - a potion of might {unknown} Books b - a book of Changes Spells Type Level a - Beastly Appendage Transmutation 1 b - Sticks to Snakes Transmutation 2 c - Spider Form Transmutation/Poison 3 d - Ice Form Ice/Transmutation 4 e - Blade Hands Transmutation 5 B - a book of Geomancy Spells Type Level a - Sandblast Earth 1 b - Passwall Transmutation/Earth 2 c - Stone Arrow Conjuration/Earth 3 d - Petrify Transmutation/Earth 4 e - Lee's Rapid Deconstruction Earth 5 E - a book of Frost Spells Type Level a - Freeze Ice 1 b - Throw Frost Conjuration/Ice 2 c - Ozocubu's Armour Charms/Ice 3 d - Throw Icicle Conjuration/Ice 4 e - Summon Ice Beast Ice/Summoning 4 Comestibles c - 4 bread rations i - 4 meat rations j - 3 fruits M - a royal jelly Skills: * Level 5.3 Fighting - Level 2.0 Dodging - Level 3.0 Stealth + Level 2.6 Shields - Level 3.0 Unarmed Combat * Level 5.7 Spellcasting * Level 1.6 Conjurations * Level 5.9 Transmutations * Level 2.8 Ice Magic - Level 4.4 Poison Magic You had 3 spell levels left. You knew the following spells: Your Spells Type Power Failure Level Hunger a - Beastly Appendage Tmut #####. 1% 1 None b - Spider Form Tmut/Pois #####..... 1% 3 #...... c - Sticks to Snakes Tmut #####... 1% 2 None d - Ice Form Ice/Tmut ######.. 1% 4 ###.... e - Throw Frost Conj/Ice #####. 1% 2 None f - Freeze Ice #### 1% 1 None g - Ozocubu's Armour Chrm/Ice #####... 1% 3 #...... Dungeon Overview and Level Annotations Branches: Dungeon (8/15) Temple (1/1) D:5 Lair: D:8-11 Altars: Ashenzari Cheibriados Dithmenos Elyvilon Fedhas Gozag Hepliaklqana Kikubaaqudgha Makhleb Nemelex Xobeh Okawaru Qazlal Ru Sif Muna Trog Uskayaw Vehumet Xom Zin The Shining One Shops: D:5 ( Annotations: D:2 1 runed door Innate Abilities, Weirdness & Mutations You cannot wear most types of armour. You are very stealthy in the water. (Stealth+) ((You are amphibious.)) You can wear up to eight rings at the same time. ((You can use your tentacles to constrict eight enemies at once.)) ((Your skin changes colour to match your surroundings (Stealth+).)) ((Your rubbery body absorbs attacks. (AC +1, EV +1))) ((You are partially covered in thin metallic scales. (AC +2))) Your mind is acute. (Int +2) Message History The hornet stings you but does no damage. The hornet stings you. * * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * * You feel as though you will be slow longer. It was a potion of brilliance. You feel clever all of a sudden. * * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * * You feel very sick. The hornet stings you but does no damage. The hornet stings you. * * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * * The hornet stings you but does no damage. It was a potion of mutation. You feel extremely strange. You feel clever. Thin metallic scales grow over part of your body. * * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * * You feel sick. The hornet barely misses you. You block the hornet's attack. It was a potion of resistance. You feel protected. You die... ##.....................#..... #......................#..... #####........................ ##........................ #......................... #......................... ##.#....................... ###.###....y................. #...# #.....â™£................ ##..# #...................... ##.# #...................... #.# #.................##### #.###..########......## #.##...##âŒ ._.##......# ##.##...##...._#......# #.......###..###..)...## ####....#âŒ .....#.......## You could see a hornet. Vanquished Creatures Prince Ribbit (D:6) Duvessa (D:4) A phantom (D:7) A sky beast (D:6) A black bear (D:7) An ogre (D:4) Blork the orc (D:4) A gnoll sergeant (D:7) A wyvern zombie (D:7) Dowan (D:4) A scorpion (D:4) A crimson imp (D:4) A quasit (D:7) 3 hounds 4 orc wizards 3 orc priests A centaur skeleton (D:7) A gnoll shaman (D:6) 3 bullfrog skeletons Terence (D:2) An iguana (D:7) Natasha (D:2) 6 worker ants A hound skeleton (D:6) Robin (D:3) A worker ant zombie (D:5) 5 gnolls 14 adders 2 shadow imps 3 oozes An adder skeleton (D:4) 3 worms 4 dart slugs 4 leopard geckos 12 orcs 9 giant cockroaches 13 goblins 11 hobgoblins 8 jackals 2 quokkas 2 ball pythons 9 bats 7 frilled lizards 9 kobolds 9 rats 167 creatures vanquished. Vanquished Creatures (collateral kills) 2 gnolls An adder (D:7) 2 orcs (D:7) 5 creatures vanquished. Grand Total: 172 creatures vanquished Notes Turn | Place | Note -------+----------+------------------------------------------- 0 | D:1 | Alphaeus the Octopode Transmuter began the quest for the Orb. 0 | D:1 | Reached XP level 1. HP: 13/13 MP: 3/3 360 | D:1 | Reached XP level 2. HP: 18/18 MP: 5/5 591 | D:1 | Reached skill level 1 in Stealth 595 | D:1 | Reached XP level 3. HP: 23/24 MP: 6/6 744 | D:1 | Learned a level 3 spell: Spider Form 1212 | D:2 | Noticed Natasha 1232 | D:2 | Killed Natasha 1232 | D:2 | Reached XP level 4. HP: 13/29 MP: 5/8 1413 | D:2 | Noticed Terence 1422 | D:2 | Killed Terence 1422 | D:2 | Reached skill level 1 in Poison Magic 1600 | D:2 | Reached XP level 5. HP: 32/35 MP: 9/9 1725 | D:2 | Learned a level 2 spell: Sticks to Snakes 1858 | D:2 | Found a runed door. 2573 | D:3 | Noticed Robin 2582 | D:3 | Killed Robin 2585 | D:3 | Reached XP level 6. HP: 24/41 MP: 10/10 2957 | D:3 | Found a shadowy altar of Dithmenos. 3162 | D:3 | Found a stormy altar of Qazlal. 3563 | D:4 | Noticed Blork the orc 3581 | D:4 | Killed Blork the orc 3588 | D:4 | Reached XP level 7. HP: 21/46 MP: 10/12 4026 | D:4 | Noticed Dowan 4070 | D:4 | Noticed Duvessa 4091 | D:4 | Killed Duvessa 4091 | D:4 | Reached skill level 1 in Shields 4097 | D:4 | Killed Dowan 4486 | D:4 | Learned a level 4 spell: Ice Form 4663 | D:5 | Entered Level 5 of the Dungeon 4687 | D:5 | Found Icis's Weapon Shoppe. 4699 | D:5 | Reached XP level 8. HP: 48/54 MP: 14/14 4791 | D:5 | Found a bloodstained altar of Trog. 4793 | D:5 | Found a hide-covered altar of Uskayaw. 4793 | D:5 | Found a shimmering altar of Xom. 4793 | D:5 | Found a blossoming altar of Fedhas. 4793 | D:5 | Found a deep blue altar of Sif Muna. 4794 | D:5 | Found a glowing golden altar of the Shining One. 4903 | D:5 | Reached skill level 1 in Ice Magic 5141 | D:5 | Found a blossoming altar of Fedhas. 5242 | D:5 | Found a staircase to the Ecumenical Temple. 5274 | Temple | Entered the Ecumenical Temple 5885 | D:6 | Noticed Prince Ribbit 5896 | D:6 | Killed Prince Ribbit 5896 | D:6 | Reached skill level 5 in Spellcasting 6022 | D:6 | Reached skill level 5 in Transmutations 6299 | D:6 | Learned a level 2 spell: Throw Frost 6367 | D:6 | Learned a level 1 spell: Freeze 6639 | D:7 | Reached skill level 5 in Fighting 6897 | D:7 | Reached XP level 9. HP: 61/61 MP: 17/17 6956 | D:7 | Reached skill level 1 in Conjurations 7117 | D:7 | Learned a level 3 spell: Ozocubu's Armour 8112 | D:7 | Found a snail-covered altar of Cheibriados. 8117 | D:7 | Found a glowing silver altar of Zin. 8120 | D:7 | Became a worshipper of Cheibriados the Contemplative 8345 | D:8 | Noticed a hornet 8353 | D:7 | HP: 4/91 [poisoned by a hornet] 8354 | D:7 | Gained mutation: Your mind is acute. (Int +2) [potion of mutation] 8354 | D:7 | Gained mutation: You are partially covered in thin metallic scales. (AC +2) [potion of mutation] 8355 | D:7 | Succumbed to a hornet's poison Skill XL: | 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 | ---------------+----------------------------+----- Fighting | 2 3 4 5 | 5.3 Stealth | 1 2 3 | 3.0 Poison Magic | 1 2 3 4 | 4.4 Transmutations | 3 5 | 5.9 Spellcasting | 3 4 5 | 5.7 Shields | 1 2 | 2.6 Ice Magic | 2 | 2.8 Conjurations | 1 | 1.6 Dodging | | 2.0 Unarmed Combat | | 3.0 Action | 1- 3 | 4- 6 | 7- 9 || total -------------------------+-------+-------+-------++------- Melee: Unarmed | 89 | 173 | 263 || 525 Constrict | 21 | 43 | 27 || 91 Tentacles | 17 | 39 | 37 || 93 Kick | 2 | 3 | 10 || 15 Punch | | 4 | 3 || 7 Cast: Beastly Appendage | 2 | 2 | 3 || 7 Spider Form | | 2 | 10 || 12 Sticks to Snakes | | | 9 || 9 Freeze | | | 6 || 6 Ozocubu's Armour | | | 1 || 1 Use: Scroll | | | 2 || 2 Potion | | | 6 || 6 Stab: Sleeping | 8 | 9 | 11 || 28 Distracted | | 2 | || 2 Eat: Chunk | 1 | 7 | 12 || 20 Fruit | | 1 | 3 || 4 Meat ration | | | 1 || 1 Armor: Skin | 22 | 38 | 36 || 96 Dodge: Dodged | 71 | 102 | 174 || 347 Block: Other | | 6 | 13 || 19

Sooo...Lost this char to a hornet because no rPois, and was already lethally poisoned before I could cast Ice Form.

That said, thoughts and advice? Taking a break from my usual GrFi of Chei runs. Overall, I've realized that on the early floors I have to play extremely cautious, and get my Transmutation and spell skills up fast. That said, aside from unavoidable deaths (ogre spawned awake on D:1 one time), I really like the build and know that it'll be great once it comes into its own.

I'm going with Chei since I have limited access to equipment, and the boosts will help me to kill fast, stay stealthy, and have good EV. Plan to branch into shields later once I have the spare XP.

Thursday, 28th September 2017, 15:05 by VeryAngryFelid

Alphaeus wrote:
Code:
Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.20.1-1-g8b1a95d (webtiles) character file. 2023 Alphaeus the Changer (level 9, 0/91 HPs) Began as an Octopode Transmuter on Sept 28, 2017. Was an Initiate of Cheibriados. Succumbed to a hornet's poison ... on level 7 of the Dungeon. The game lasted 00:39:22 (8355 turns). Alphaeus the Changer (Octopode Transmuter) Turns: 8355, Time: 00:39:23 Health: 0/91 AC: 27 Str: 13 XL: 9 Next: 23% Magic: 15/17 EV: 2 Int: 24 God: Cheibriados [......] Gold: 348 SH: 2 Dex: 16 Spells: 3/19 levels left rFire . . . SeeInvis + - Unarmed rCold + + . Gourm . (no shield) rNeg + + + Faith . (helmet currently unavailable) rPois + Spirit . u - +2 amulet of reflection rElec + Reflect + f - +3 ring of protection rCorr + Harm . g - +3 ring of dexterity MR +.... NoTele + h - ring of see invisible Stlth +++....... C - ring of protection from magic Regen 0.3/turn H - ring of ice MPRegen 0.2/turn I - ring of stealth (no ring) (no ring) @: brilliant, lethally poisoned (0 -> -10), tree-form, resistant, very slightly contaminated, slowed, very slow A: almost no armour, stealthy swim, (amphibious), 8 rings, (constrict 8), clever 1 a: Bend Time, Renounce Religion You were on level 7 of the Dungeon. You worshipped Cheibriados. Cheibriados was noncommittal. You were not hungry. You were a tree. You visited 2 branches of the dungeon, and saw 9 of its levels. You collected 348 gold pieces. Inventory: Missiles a - 140 arrows q - 3 tomahawks of returning (quivered) Armour d - a +0 shield Magical Staves x - an uncursed staff of summoning P - an uncursed staff of poison Jewellery f - a +3 ring of protection (left branch) g - a +3 ring of dexterity (right branch) h - a ring of see invisible (on tentacle) u - a +2 amulet of reflection (around neck) C - a ring of protection from magic (on tentacle) D - an uncursed amulet of rage H - a ring of ice (on tentacle) I - a ring of stealth (on tentacle) Wands s - a wand of disintegration (11/24) y - a wand of confusion (25/48) N - a wand of confusion (35/48) O - a wand of polymorph (13/24) Scrolls e - 2 scrolls of fear {unknown} k - 3 scrolls of identify l - a scroll of amnesia {unknown} m - 4 scrolls of magic mapping {unknown} o - 3 scrolls of teleportation {unknown} p - 4 scrolls of remove curse {unknown} r - 5 scrolls of immolation {unknown} t - a scroll of blinking {unknown} v - 2 scrolls of enchant armour {unknown} z - 3 scrolls of enchant weapon {unknown} G - a scroll of brand weapon {unknown} L - 2 scrolls of summoning {unknown} Potions n - a potion of flight w - a potion of lignification K - a potion of might {unknown} Books b - a book of Changes Spells Type Level a - Beastly Appendage Transmutation 1 b - Sticks to Snakes Transmutation 2 c - Spider Form Transmutation/Poison 3 d - Ice Form Ice/Transmutation 4 e - Blade Hands Transmutation 5 B - a book of Geomancy Spells Type Level a - Sandblast Earth 1 b - Passwall Transmutation/Earth 2 c - Stone Arrow Conjuration/Earth 3 d - Petrify Transmutation/Earth 4 e - Lee's Rapid Deconstruction Earth 5 E - a book of Frost Spells Type Level a - Freeze Ice 1 b - Throw Frost Conjuration/Ice 2 c - Ozocubu's Armour Charms/Ice 3 d - Throw Icicle Conjuration/Ice 4 e - Summon Ice Beast Ice/Summoning 4 Comestibles c - 4 bread rations i - 4 meat rations j - 3 fruits M - a royal jelly Skills: * Level 5.3 Fighting - Level 2.0 Dodging - Level 3.0 Stealth + Level 2.6 Shields - Level 3.0 Unarmed Combat * Level 5.7 Spellcasting * Level 1.6 Conjurations * Level 5.9 Transmutations * Level 2.8 Ice Magic - Level 4.4 Poison Magic You had 3 spell levels left. You knew the following spells: Your Spells Type Power Failure Level Hunger a - Beastly Appendage Tmut #####. 1% 1 None b - Spider Form Tmut/Pois #####..... 1% 3 #...... c - Sticks to Snakes Tmut #####... 1% 2 None d - Ice Form Ice/Tmut ######.. 1% 4 ###.... e - Throw Frost Conj/Ice #####. 1% 2 None f - Freeze Ice #### 1% 1 None g - Ozocubu's Armour Chrm/Ice #####... 1% 3 #...... Dungeon Overview and Level Annotations Branches: Dungeon (8/15) Temple (1/1) D:5 Lair: D:8-11 Altars: Ashenzari Cheibriados Dithmenos Elyvilon Fedhas Gozag Hepliaklqana Kikubaaqudgha Makhleb Nemelex Xobeh Okawaru Qazlal Ru Sif Muna Trog Uskayaw Vehumet Xom Zin The Shining One Shops: D:5 ( Annotations: D:2 1 runed door Innate Abilities, Weirdness & Mutations You cannot wear most types of armour. You are very stealthy in the water. (Stealth+) ((You are amphibious.)) You can wear up to eight rings at the same time. ((You can use your tentacles to constrict eight enemies at once.)) ((Your skin changes colour to match your surroundings (Stealth+).)) ((Your rubbery body absorbs attacks. (AC +1, EV +1))) ((You are partially covered in thin metallic scales. (AC +2))) Your mind is acute. (Int +2) Message History The hornet stings you but does no damage. The hornet stings you. * * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * * You feel as though you will be slow longer. It was a potion of brilliance. You feel clever all of a sudden. * * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * * You feel very sick. The hornet stings you but does no damage. The hornet stings you. * * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * * The hornet stings you but does no damage. It was a potion of mutation. You feel extremely strange. You feel clever. Thin metallic scales grow over part of your body. * * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * * You feel sick. The hornet barely misses you. You block the hornet's attack. It was a potion of resistance. You feel protected. You die... ##.....................#..... #......................#..... #####........................ ##........................ #......................... #......................... ##.#....................... ###.###....y................. #...# #.....â[emoji769]£................ ##..# #...................... ##.# #...................... #.# #.................##### #.###..########......## #.##...##âŒ ._.##......# ##.##...##...._#......# #.......###..###..)...## ####....#âŒ .....#.......## You could see a hornet. Vanquished Creatures Prince Ribbit (D:6) Duvessa (D:4) A phantom (D:7) A sky beast (D:6) A black bear (D:7) An ogre (D:4) Blork the orc (D:4) A gnoll sergeant (D:7) A wyvern zombie (D:7) Dowan (D:4) A scorpion (D:4) A crimson imp (D:4) A quasit (D:7) 3 hounds 4 orc wizards 3 orc priests A centaur skeleton (D:7) A gnoll shaman (D:6) 3 bullfrog skeletons Terence (D:2) An iguana (D:7) Natasha (D:2) 6 worker ants A hound skeleton (D:6) Robin (D:3) A worker ant zombie (D:5) 5 gnolls 14 adders 2 shadow imps 3 oozes An adder skeleton (D:4) 3 worms 4 dart slugs 4 leopard geckos 12 orcs 9 giant cockroaches 13 goblins 11 hobgoblins 8 jackals 2 quokkas 2 ball pythons 9 bats 7 frilled lizards 9 kobolds 9 rats 167 creatures vanquished. Vanquished Creatures (collateral kills) 2 gnolls An adder (D:7) 2 orcs (D:7) 5 creatures vanquished. Grand Total: 172 creatures vanquished Notes Turn | Place | Note -------+----------+------------------------------------------- 0 | D:1 | Alphaeus the Octopode Transmuter began the quest for the Orb. 0 | D:1 | Reached XP level 1. HP: 13/13 MP: 3/3 360 | D:1 | Reached XP level 2. HP: 18/18 MP: 5/5 591 | D:1 | Reached skill level 1 in Stealth 595 | D:1 | Reached XP level 3. HP: 23/24 MP: 6/6 744 | D:1 | Learned a level 3 spell: Spider Form 1212 | D:2 | Noticed Natasha 1232 | D:2 | Killed Natasha 1232 | D:2 | Reached XP level 4. HP: 13/29 MP: 5/8 1413 | D:2 | Noticed Terence 1422 | D:2 | Killed Terence 1422 | D:2 | Reached skill level 1 in Poison Magic 1600 | D:2 | Reached XP level 5. HP: 32/35 MP: 9/9 1725 | D:2 | Learned a level 2 spell: Sticks to Snakes 1858 | D:2 | Found a runed door. 2573 | D:3 | Noticed Robin 2582 | D:3 | Killed Robin 2585 | D:3 | Reached XP level 6. HP: 24/41 MP: 10/10 2957 | D:3 | Found a shadowy altar of Dithmenos. 3162 | D:3 | Found a stormy altar of Qazlal. 3563 | D:4 | Noticed Blork the orc 3581 | D:4 | Killed Blork the orc 3588 | D:4 | Reached XP level 7. HP: 21/46 MP: 10/12 4026 | D:4 | Noticed Dowan 4070 | D:4 | Noticed Duvessa 4091 | D:4 | Killed Duvessa 4091 | D:4 | Reached skill level 1 in Shields 4097 | D:4 | Killed Dowan 4486 | D:4 | Learned a level 4 spell: Ice Form 4663 | D:5 | Entered Level 5 of the Dungeon 4687 | D:5 | Found Icis's Weapon Shoppe. 4699 | D:5 | Reached XP level 8. HP: 48/54 MP: 14/14 4791 | D:5 | Found a bloodstained altar of Trog. 4793 | D:5 | Found a hide-covered altar of Uskayaw. 4793 | D:5 | Found a shimmering altar of Xom. 4793 | D:5 | Found a blossoming altar of Fedhas. 4793 | D:5 | Found a deep blue altar of Sif Muna. 4794 | D:5 | Found a glowing golden altar of the Shining One. 4903 | D:5 | Reached skill level 1 in Ice Magic 5141 | D:5 | Found a blossoming altar of Fedhas. 5242 | D:5 | Found a staircase to the Ecumenical Temple. 5274 | Temple | Entered the Ecumenical Temple 5885 | D:6 | Noticed Prince Ribbit 5896 | D:6 | Killed Prince Ribbit 5896 | D:6 | Reached skill level 5 in Spellcasting 6022 | D:6 | Reached skill level 5 in Transmutations 6299 | D:6 | Learned a level 2 spell: Throw Frost 6367 | D:6 | Learned a level 1 spell: Freeze 6639 | D:7 | Reached skill level 5 in Fighting 6897 | D:7 | Reached XP level 9. HP: 61/61 MP: 17/17 6956 | D:7 | Reached skill level 1 in Conjurations 7117 | D:7 | Learned a level 3 spell: Ozocubu's Armour 8112 | D:7 | Found a snail-covered altar of Cheibriados. 8117 | D:7 | Found a glowing silver altar of Zin. 8120 | D:7 | Became a worshipper of Cheibriados the Contemplative 8345 | D:8 | Noticed a hornet 8353 | D:7 | HP: 4/91 [poisoned by a hornet] 8354 | D:7 | Gained mutation: Your mind is acute. (Int +2) [potion of mutation] 8354 | D:7 | Gained mutation: You are partially covered in thin metallic scales. (AC +2) [potion of mutation] 8355 | D:7 | Succumbed to a hornet's poison Skill XL: | 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 | ---------------+----------------------------+----- Fighting | 2 3 4 5 | 5.3 Stealth | 1 2 3 | 3.0 Poison Magic | 1 2 3 4 | 4.4 Transmutations | 3 5 | 5.9 Spellcasting | 3 4 5 | 5.7 Shields | 1 2 | 2.6 Ice Magic | 2 | 2.8 Conjurations | 1 | 1.6 Dodging | | 2.0 Unarmed Combat | | 3.0 Action | 1- 3 | 4- 6 | 7- 9 || total -------------------------+-------+-------+-------++------- Melee: Unarmed | 89 | 173 | 263 || 525 Constrict | 21 | 43 | 27 || 91 Tentacles | 17 | 39 | 37 || 93 Kick | 2 | 3 | 10 || 15 Punch | | 4 | 3 || 7 Cast: Beastly Appendage | 2 | 2 | 3 || 7 Spider Form | | 2 | 10 || 12 Sticks to Snakes | | | 9 || 9 Freeze | | | 6 || 6 Ozocubu's Armour | | | 1 || 1 Use: Scroll | | | 2 || 2 Potion | | | 6 || 6 Stab: Sleeping | 8 | 9 | 11 || 28 Distracted | | 2 | || 2 Eat: Chunk | 1 | 7 | 12 || 20 Fruit | | 1 | 3 || 4 Meat ration | | | 1 || 1 Armor: Skin | 22 | 38 | 36 || 96 Dodge: Dodged | 71 | 102 | 174 || 347 Block: Other | | 6 | 13 || 19

Sooo...Lost this char to a hornet because no rPois, and was already lethally poisoned before I could cast Ice Form.

That said, thoughts and advice? Taking a break from my usual GrFi of Chei runs. Overall, I've realized that on the early floors I have to play extremely cautious, and get my Transmutation and spell skills up fast. That said, aside from unavoidable deaths (ogre spawned awake on D:1 one time), I really like the build and know that it'll be great once it comes into its own.

I'm going with Chei since I have limited access to equipment, and the boosts will help me to kill fast, stay stealthy, and have good EV. Plan to branch into shields later once I have the spare XP.

Don't use shield as OpTm until you find statue form. I prefer to be in ice form when autoexploring as OpTm

Thursday, 28th September 2017, 15:13 by Alphaeus

Will autoexplore stop me at the "Your transformation is nearly over" warning?

I think it does, but haven't done Tm much.

Thursday, 28th September 2017, 15:16 by le_nerd

You can adjust the settings to get a warning.

runrest_stop_message = Your transformation is almost over.

As for your char, your skill training is horrendous. Trying to kill stuff with UC 3 in a form is just asking for trouble. More UC, more dodging to make use of Chei, and a smidge stealth.

Thursday, 28th September 2017, 15:26 by nago

With tm you should train more UC, fighting and dodging (in this order) and less magic skills. Especially much less spellcasting at this point.

With another God swithing/adding ice magic due that book of Frost could have been viable, but not with Chei so soon, as you have a char that when depletes mp has no valid melee nor defences and can't run awah

In this specific case, best bet would have probably been using an hex wand as hornets have very low mr

Thursday, 28th September 2017, 16:11 by watertreatmentRL

You waste xp on magic that you don't need and you don't train core physical skills, like UC. In this game you also wasted xp on shields, a skill you would obviously get no use of for a long time, perhaps never if your endgame was blade hands (always a reasonable option).

The following skill investments are entirely wasted:

+ Level 2.6 Shields
* Level 5.7 Spellcasting (!!)
* Level 1.6 Conjurations
* Level 2.8 Ice Magic
- Level 4.4 Poison Magic (!!!!!)

That is probably almost half of your total skill points, so your level 9 character has skill like a level 6 character or something (if you look at damage output, it's probably more like a level 3 or 4 character). Almost all of your skill points should be going into UC and transmutations.

This character does not need spellcasting beyond what it starts with until way later in the game. It does not need conjurations at all, total waste of experience. Ozo's would be a good choice at a later stage of the game, for example after you have blade hands going and reasonable UC (which apparently you did not train at all). While it is generally good to skill fighting, it is better to skill your melee skill (UC) to around 10 or so before committing a lot of xp to more fighting than you start with. A good rule of thumb is to have fighting, dodging, and armor skill if applicable around half your main melee skill for melee guys until you hit mindelay for weapons or about 18 to 20 for UC.

Transmuters are melee characters. Your primary means of attack is going to be melee. Being good at one way of killing monsters is far more valuable than being okay at two ways, say melee and conjurations (although from the look of this character, it wasn't good at any way of killing monsters). Build that UC and get your tmuts to a place where you can use the stuff in your starting book. Don't feel like you have to rush to blade hands, it's fine to get that going in lair. Snakes and spiders will easily get you to lair. Don't bother with spells out of other books that don't have a tmut component unless you have wizardry and can get them going with very low investment and then only if the spells provide good value (examples for this character would be blink, animate skeleton, swiftness, passwall, rmsl, confusing touch).

Thursday, 28th September 2017, 16:34 by Alphaeus

I'll adjust my focus to more UC. Generally the Ice/Poison was to get Spider Form and Ice form more reliable so that I could handle melee.

I thought I had shields turned off, since I wasn't even planning on remotely using a shield until mid-game, if ever. Need to be more careful of that.

Thursday, 28th September 2017, 16:47 by watertreatmentRL

You do not need ice or poison to cast those spells and you will rarely cast them after you have blade hands.

Thursday, 28th September 2017, 17:20 by VeryAngryFelid

OpTm is quite different from other Tm, Ice Form is much better than Blade Hands because of extra AC and extra HP which is more useful because of still low AC.

Thursday, 28th September 2017, 19:52 by Airwolf

OP's Poison apt makes getting a few levels very cheap, too.

Conjurations and Shields were mistakes, and too much Spellcasting, too (might need a little to get spell slots), but some Ice and Poison is wise and cheap. And definitely more UC, Fighting, and Dodging.

Edit: Chei is a reasonable choice, but Okawaru is particularly great for Transmuters.

Thursday, 28th September 2017, 20:11 by Alphaeus

Code:: Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.20.1-1-g8b1a95d (webtiles) character file. 2694 Alphaeus the Insei (level 9, -1/53 HPs) Began as an Octopode Transmuter on Sept 28, 2017. Was an Elder of Cheibriados. Killed from afar by a steam dragon (21 damage) ... with a ball of steam ... on level 7 of the Dungeon. The game lasted 00:32:58 (6992 turns). Alphaeus the Insei (Octopode Transmuter) Turns: 6992, Time: 00:32:58 Health: -1/53 AC: 2 Str: 21 XL: 9 Next: 65% Magic: 10/13 EV: 22 Int: 25 God: Cheibriados [****..] Gold: 313 SH: 5 Dex: 26 Spells: 2/12 levels left rFire . . . SeeInvis . - Unarmed rCold . . . Gourm . (shield currently unavailable) rNeg . . . Faith . (helmet currently unavailable) rPois x Spirit . g - +5 amulet of reflection rElec . Reflect + (no ring) rCorr . Harm . h - ring of protection from magic MR +.... (no ring) Stlth ++........ e - +4 ring of slaying Regen 0.2/turn (no ring) MPRegen 0.2/turn (no ring) (no ring) (no ring) @: about to teleport, spider-form, very slow A: almost no armour, stealthy swim, (amphibious), 8 rings, (constrict 8), repulsion field 1 a: End Transformation, Bend Time, Temporal Distortion, Slouch, Renounce Religion You were on level 7 of the Dungeon. You worshipped Cheibriados. Cheibriados was greatly pleased with you. You were not hungry. You were a venomous arachnid creature. You visited 1 branch of the dungeon, and saw 7 of its levels. You collected 313 gold pieces. Inventory: Missiles a - 97 arrows Magical Staves s - an uncursed staff of wizardry (melded) Jewellery e - a +4 ring of slaying (on tentacle) g - a +5 amulet of reflection (around neck) h - a ring of protection from magic (right front leg) o - an uncursed amulet of the gourmand Wands l - a wand of polymorph (3/24) m - a wand of confusion (16/48) v - a wand of polymorph (19/24) w - a wand of lightning (5/15) y - a wand of lightning (10/15) Scrolls k - 6 scrolls of identify p - 2 scrolls of magic mapping r - 3 scrolls of amnesia t - a scroll of teleportation x - a scroll of remove curse Potions d - a potion of might f - a potion of flight u - a potion of brilliance z - a potion of magic {unknown} Books b - a book of Changes Spells Type Level a - Beastly Appendage Transmutation 1 b - Sticks to Snakes Transmutation 2 c - Spider Form Transmutation/Poison 3 d - Ice Form Ice/Transmutation 4 e - Blade Hands Transmutation 5 Comestibles c - 3 bread rations i - a meat ration n - 2 royal jellies q - 12 fruits Skills: - Level 1.0 Fighting - Level 2.0 Dodging * Level 7.8 Unarmed Combat - Level 2.0 Spellcasting * Level 7.2 Transmutations * Level 4.6 Ice Magic - Level 4.0 Poison Magic * Level 5.7 Invocations You had 2 spell levels left. You knew the following spells: Your Spells Type Power Failure Level Hunger a - Beastly Appendage Tmut #####. 3% 1 None b - Spider Form Tmut/Pois ####...... 11% 3 ###.... c - Sticks to Snakes Tmut #####... 4% 2 ##..... d - Ice Form Ice/Tmut ####.... 24% 4 ####... Dungeon Overview and Level Annotations Branches: Dungeon (7/15) Temple (0/1) D:5 Altars: Cheibriados Elyvilon Gozag Makhleb Okawaru Qazlal Yredelemnul The Shining One Innate Abilities, Weirdness & Mutations You cannot wear most types of armour. You are very stealthy in the water. (Stealth+) ((You are amphibious.)) You can wear up to eight rings at the same time. ((You can use your tentacles to constrict eight enemies at once.)) ((Your skin changes colour to match your surroundings (Stealth+).)) ((Your rubbery body absorbs attacks. (AC +1, EV +1))) You are surrounded by a mild repulsion field. (EV +2) ((You are partially covered in large bone plates. (SH +4))) Message History As you read the scroll of teleportation, it crumbles to dust. You feel strangely unstable. The steam dragon barely misses you. The steam dragon closely misses you. Casting: Ice Form Confirm with . or Enter, or press ? or * to list all spells. You warm up again. Your uncursed staff of wizardry unmelds from your body. You turn into a venomous arachnid creature. Your uncursed staff of wizardry melds into your body. The steam dragon closely misses you. The steam dragon completely misses you. You hit the steam dragon. The steam dragon is poisoned. The steam dragon is severely wounded. The steam dragon barely misses you. The steam dragon misses you. The steam dragon closely misses you. The steam dragon claws you. A steam dragon comes into view. You hit the steam dragon but do no damage. The steam dragon is poisoned. The steam dragon breathes steam at you. The ball of steam hits you! You die... #............ #######)........... #.................. #......)........... #......<.......... #................. #............##### #...........##.â‰ˆâ‰ˆ## #######.....#sD.Â§â‰ˆ# #.......D8.â‰ˆ# #.....#....â‰ˆ# #.....##..!.Â§# #...... ###Â§Â§# ........ .â‰ˆ# ......... D# .........# # ....... You could see 3 steam dragons. Vanquished Creatures The ghost of 0gre the Cudgeler, a novice MiBe of Trog (D:4) Edmund (D:5) Duvessa (D:7) An orc warrior (D:6) 3 sky beasts (D:6) A phantom (D:5) 5 ogres (D:6) A centaur (D:5) 2 bullfrogs (D:6) Dowan (D:7) A scorpion (D:5) 4 howler monkeys 3 crimson imps (D:5) A hound (D:4) 2 jellies (D:6) 2 orc priests A bullfrog skeleton (D:5) Ijyb (D:5) 3 iguanas (D:4) 3 orc wizards 4 worker ants A hound skeleton (D:4) Robin (D:3) 8 adders 2 shadow imps An ooze (D:4) 2 worms 2 dart slugs A leopard gecko (D:5) 13 orcs 6 giant cockroaches 16 goblins 11 hobgoblins 10 jackals 5 quokkas 10 bats 12 frilled lizards A giant cockroach zombie (D:5) 9 kobolds A leopard gecko skeleton (D:6) A quokka zombie (D:5) 6 rats 161 creatures vanquished. Notes Turn | Place | Note -------+----------+------------------------------------------- 0 | D:1 | Alphaeus the Octopode Transmuter began the quest for the Orb. 0 | D:1 | Reached XP level 1. HP: 13/13 MP: 3/3 542 | D:1 | Reached XP level 2. HP: 10/18 MP: 5/5 810 | D:1 | Found a snail-covered altar of Cheibriados. 858 | D:1 | Became a worshipper of Cheibriados the Contemplative 889 | D:1 | Reached XP level 3. HP: 23/23 MP: 6/6 1759 | D:2 | Reached * piety under Cheibriados 1787 | D:2 | Reached XP level 4. HP: 16/28 MP: 7/7 2177 | D:2 | Found an iron altar of Okawaru. 2328 | D:3 | Found a faded altar of an unknown god. 2352 | D:3 | Noticed Robin 2362 | D:3 | Killed Robin 2378 | D:3 | Reached XP level 5. HP: 8/33 MP: 6/8 2382 | D:3 | Gained mutation: You are partially covered in large bone plates. (SH +4) [potion of mutation] 2382 | D:3 | Gained mutation: Scrolls take you a little longer to read. [potion of mutation] 2382 | D:3 | Lost mutation: Scrolls take you a little longer to read. [potion of mutation] 2382 | D:3 | Gained mutation: You are surrounded by a mild repulsion field. (EV +2) [potion of mutation] 2874 | D:3 | Found a burning altar of Makhleb. 3022 | D:3 | Reached ** piety under Cheibriados 3070 | D:3 | Learned a level 3 spell: Spider Form 3073 | D:3 | Learned a level 2 spell: Sticks to Snakes 3297 | D:4 | Reached skill level 1 in Poison Magic 3433 | D:4 | Found a white marble altar of Elyvilon. 3433 | D:4 | Found a basalt altar of Yredelemnul. 3434 | D:4 | Found an opulent altar of Gozag. 3440 | D:4 | Noticed 0gre's ghost (novice MiBe) 3444 | D:4 | Found a stormy altar of Qazlal. 3491 | D:4 | Killed 0gre's ghost 3491 | D:4 | Reached skill level 5 in Unarmed Combat 3491 | D:4 | Reached skill level 1 in Invocations 3491 | D:4 | Reached XP level 6. HP: 28/38 MP: 7/9 3491 | D:4 | Reached XP level 7. HP: 32/43 MP: 7/10 3895 | D:4 | Reached skill level 5 in Transmutations 4255 | D:4 | Learned a level 4 spell: Ice Form 4439 | D:4 | Reached *** piety under Cheibriados 4712 | D:5 | Entered Level 5 of the Dungeon 4721 | D:5 | Reached skill level 1 in Ice Magic 4963 | D:5 | Reached XP level 8. HP: 30/48 MP: 7/11 5425 | D:5 | Found a staircase to the Ecumenical Temple. 5464 | D:5 | Noticed Edmund 5473 | D:5 | Killed Edmund 5599 | D:5 | Reached **** piety under Cheibriados 5740 | D:5 | Noticed Ijyb 5747 | D:5 | Killed Ijyb 6030 | D:6 | Found a glowing golden altar of the Shining One. 6120 | D:6 | Reached XP level 9. HP: 53/53 MP: 7/12 6253 | D:6 | Reached skill level 5 in Invocations 6962 | D:7 | Noticed Duvessa 6968 | D:7 | Killed Duvessa 6970 | D:7 | Noticed Dowan 6974 | D:7 | Killed Dowan 6992 | D:7 | Killed from afar by a steam dragon Skill XL: | 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 | ---------------+----------------------------+----- Transmutations | 3 4 5 6 7 | 7.2 Unarmed Combat | 4 5 6 7 | 7.8 Poison Magic | 3 4 | 4.0 Invocations | 1 2 4 5 | 5.7 Ice Magic | 1 3 4 | 4.6 Fighting | | 1.0 Dodging | | 2.0 Spellcasting | | 2.0 Action | 1- 3 | 4- 6 | 7- 9 || total -------------------------+-------+-------+-------++------- Melee: Unarmed | 82 | 94 | 157 || 333 Constrict | 26 | 21 | 27 || 74 Tentacles | 14 | 17 | 30 || 61 Kick | 3 | 16 | 10 || 29 Punch | | 4 | 7 || 11 Staff | | | 25 || 25 Cast: Beastly Appendage | 1 | 10 | 2 || 13 Spider Form | | | 3 || 3 Ice Form | | | 13 || 13 Use: Scroll | 3 | 4 | 6 || 13 Potion | | 4 | 5 || 9 Stab: Sleeping | 8 | 2 | 2 || 12 Distracted | 1 | | || 1 Eat: Chunk | 2 | 3 | 9 || 14 Armor: Skin | 10 | 3 | 12 || 25 Dodge: Dodged | 40 | 51 | 96 || 187 Block: Other | | 16 | 50 || 66 Reflection | | | 1 || 1

So, focused almost exclusively Transmutation and UC, just to see what happened. Worked really well, but next time I'll toss more XP towards Fighting and Dodging.

Still, 3 Steam dragons with no rF was the end anyway.

Like the power of this build, though.

Thursday, 28th September 2017, 22:16 by edgefigaro

You are losing a lot of value to chei with this build. Transmuters don't need crazy stats, but they usually like to move around. Chei gives away the ability to easily move around in exchange for crazy stats.

You never cast sticks to snakes, which is a critical error on any transmuter.

You never made a ranged attack. Moving is expensive with chei, so frequently you want to suppress the battlefield at range. It is more useful than normal to do a minor thing rather than move toward your opponent*. You are never making small constructive actions on the battlefield. You can do this directly with a ranged damage source, you can do this with allies, you can also do it indirectly with things like conjure flame or hexes.

Transmuters mess with your ranged constructive options. Chei + Not using ranged abilities = Bad Chei Play. I want to belabor this point. If you are playing chei and not making use of turns at range, you are playing your character poorly.

Their was a forum regular, tasonir, who used to love melee chei characters a few patches ago, especially before the way transmutations and stats interacted was retooled. He wrote a melee chei guide here. It is dated but there still may be some useful knowledge inside.

Otherwise
That steam dragon vault is deadly for a lot of characters when first encountered, and chei transmuters happen to be more vulnerable than normal.

*Minor constructive actions may not save you vs steam dragons, who will probably kill this character.

Thursday, 28th September 2017, 22:40 by Airwolf

Good advice above. Sticks to Snakes is very strong.

I'm pretty sure rF does nothing against steam.

Thursday, 28th September 2017, 22:49 by Alphaeus

Yeah, I though heavily about doing ranged, and will next time. Didn't find much ranged gear/spells of use (aside from the basic bows), and didn't find remove curse scrolls for my weapon/minus dex rings until D:6.

That said, I do want to move into ranged, or otherwise ranged spells. I can see spells being a bit more useful with this since I could use them while in various forms that wouldn't allow me to access weapons.

I know I cast sticks to snakes a number of times, so I have no clue why that didn't show. In fact, I specifically know it saved my ass against a gnoll pack because I repeatedly cast it. I love that spell because it not only gives good non-summons allies, but it also is a way of buying space between dangerous opponents simply by virtue of spam power. Maybe I just played those floors in an alternate universe. That's a minor point though (unless I was really in an alternate universe, in which case that isn't minor at all).

As to moving around, I do see your point that Chei would be a gimp to a certain extent. That said, here is why I'm going with Chei:

1) With minimal AC in my base for, being able to jack up Dex to get great EV helps against ranged attacks and numerous light melee attacks.
2) The higher stats help get secondary skills online faster, which primarily means I'm looking at INT affecting spells. Hitting 40+ INT = remarkable spells = solves my ranged attacks issue while building off of necessary skills.
3) With melee attacks as the baseline for ALL forms, insane STR seriously ups my kill power and speed, especially with things like my 8x inherent constrict ability that suddenly becomes literally 4x more powerful just from full piety Cheibro STR levels alone. Tag onto that the fact that it boosts the damage of my alternate forms in melee, this is a good thing. Killing more things faster = good.

The big thing with Chei is that if you have ranged opponents and good melee, there is literally no reason why you shouldn't be using your Invos (bend time, I believe) to plop them right beside you. It's ridiculously low piety, enough that you'll earn it back (or more) from killing those ranged opponents. Plus amulets of reflection help too.

I will check out that guide, though, and thanks for the tips.

Yes, those steam dragons would have been death. I usually don't have a problem with that vault, but I also usually have builds that kill faster and have better healing potions. I do remember one time I was able to lure them apart, kill one that luckily dropped its armor, and then get rSteam to kill the rest. I could be wrong but I THINK one time I had the scarf of cloud immunity that helped to. Not sure, though.

Friday, 29th September 2017, 07:58 by raikaria

watertreatmentRL wrote:You do not need ice or poison to cast those spells and you will rarely cast them after you have blade hands.

Ice/Poison help those spells come online a lot faster than just purely training Transmutations. With Op's +2 Poison Aptitude; and the fact that Transmuters [Especially Op] are really weak until at least Spider Form [Where they're still flimsy but at least deal good damage; can kite; dodge and poison]; training Poison is fine.

As for Ice for Ice form; again; it would come online very late if you train pure Tm; you'd have Blade Hands online before Ice Form. And it's not like dabbleing in Ice Magic is a bad thing to do. Especially when he has a Book of Ice and a Ring of Ice; giving him access to some weaker ranged attacks; Ozo's; and Summon Ice Beasts.

That's probobly why he was training spellcasting; he had 3 spell levels left and wanted Summon Ice Beasts. [Amnesia'ing Appendage; Sticks to Snakes or even Spider Form would have been the better move however, since those spells see little~no use post Ice Form and Summon Ice Beasts]

Friday, 29th September 2017, 15:40 by severen

I, personally, don't like the Tm start on an Op. IE is a better Int focused build and OpFi is a much better unarmed/physical stats build. If you really want to just do the Tm start then its basically the same on Op as any other char. I, personally, do not think the starter forms are significantly better than an Op with a shield when UC/fighting is at about 10/7. Ice form has certain isolated uses it is clearly superior for (hydra) but otherwise ice form winds up being about the same damage (because Op aux attacks are extremely strong and so is constriction) with much worse defense (no shield and worse EV is not made up for by the modest AC.).

In the end when I want to make a transmutation based Op the start is not anywhere near as important as finding the a book with statue or dragon. I generally ignore the book of changes as inferior options. An OpFi with a few key spells is much better than Tm, although if I need to kill hydra I have used ice form, summon ice beast is strictly better. An OpIE is just all around superior to Tm on a very large level and guarantees Ozo armor for use in dragon form.

If you want to make Tm start work for some reason, you need to know when to run early and you need to cultivate as much damage as possible. Kill stuff fast or get out because you are just not going to get adequate defense without incredible luck on rings.

Friday, 29th September 2017, 15:55 by severen

raikaria wrote:
watertreatmentRL wrote:You do not need ice or poison to cast those spells and you will rarely cast them after you have blade hands.

Ice/Poison help those spells come online a lot faster than just purely training Transmutations. With Op's +2 Poison Aptitude; and the fact that Transmuters [Especially Op] are really weak until at least Spider Form [Where they're still flimsy but at least deal good damage; can kite; dodge and poison]; training Poison is fine.

As for Ice for Ice form; again; it would come online very late if you train pure Tm; you'd have Blade Hands online before Ice Form. And it's not like dabbleing in Ice Magic is a bad thing to do. Especially when he has a Book of Ice and a Ring of Ice; giving him access to some weaker ranged attacks; Ozo's; and Summon Ice Beasts.

That's probobly why he was training spellcasting; he had 3 spell levels left and wanted Summon Ice Beasts. [Amnesia'ing Appendage; Sticks to Snakes or even Spider Form would have been the better move however, since those spells see little~no use post Ice Form and Summon Ice Beasts]

You don't need anything more than summon ice beast to clear all of lair and down to d15 and large amount of lair rune branches. Ice form is in a weird place for an Op eventually going transmutations. Can you do IF? Yes. Is it worth even bothering? Not really. Is it XP inefficient? No, because you will train ice magic a little for Ozo armor (unless you do statue and then you may want to save a little, but in the long run getting any skill to 5 or so is not a real XP burden). The conundrum is that summon ice beast is so vastly superior to Ice Form that is simply doesn't really matter. You can of course do both, but saving the MP for another IB is often the better option.

In the end if I have IE book I train ice/summoning imediately because Op melee is really strong early on and freeze kills eveyrthing up to level 4. I memorize SIB and then use that to kill everything. You can then get enough XP to train whatever you want and the only question is "When will I find the good transmutations". Keep in mind that, for an Op, Dragon is much better than blade hands (more damage and gives armor) and statue is as well(statue increases damage of auxiliaries so blade hands is not really much better in damage and the defense are radically better due to shield). Dragon is your huge damage option, statue is your defense option (but still with excellent damage). Blade hands in not good on an Op. It can be made to work, but it is strictly inferior IMO.

To really see how an Op works I suggest trying the following. Start as an OpFi. Immediately upon start go 100% training in to UC until about 9-10. Then train fighting/shield/dodge up (if you find defense rings or a nice spell change the ratios, i.e. train up shield if you want to cast). Try the same thing as a none shield user. Then compare this to a typical Tm start. You may be surprised. Now this is not meant to be compared to IE. I have started an OpFi and found an early IE starter book and immediately switched to pure focus on SIB. The spell is just that strong, especially since you can just go back to training shield etc when you are cruising through lair with your IB killing most things.

You can do the same thing with summon mana viper if you find, which is an amazing spell. But of course hexes is less XP optimal unless you want Darkness (which is nice with chei).

Friday, 29th September 2017, 16:10 by severen

Alphaeus wrote:Yeah, I though heavily about doing ranged, and will next time. Didn't find much ranged gear/spells of use (aside from the basic bows), and didn't find remove curse scrolls for my weapon/minus dex rings until D:6.

That said, I do want to move into ranged, or otherwise ranged spells. I can see spells being a bit more useful with this since I could use them while in various forms that wouldn't allow me to access weapons.

I know I cast sticks to snakes a number of times, so I have no clue why that didn't show. In fact, I specifically know it saved my ass against a gnoll pack because I repeatedly cast it. I love that spell because it not only gives good non-summons allies, but it also is a way of buying space between dangerous opponents simply by virtue of spam power. Maybe I just played those floors in an alternate universe. That's a minor point though (unless I was really in an alternate universe, in which case that isn't minor at all).

As to moving around, I do see your point that Chei would be a gimp to a certain extent. That said, here is why I'm going with Chei:

1) With minimal AC in my base for, being able to jack up Dex to get great EV helps against ranged attacks and numerous light melee attacks.
2) The higher stats help get secondary skills online faster, which primarily means I'm looking at INT affecting spells. Hitting 40+ INT = remarkable spells = solves my ranged attacks issue while building off of necessary skills.
3) With melee attacks as the baseline for ALL forms, insane STR seriously ups my kill power and speed, especially with things like my 8x inherent constrict ability that suddenly becomes literally 4x more powerful just from full piety Cheibro STR levels alone. Tag onto that the fact that it boosts the damage of my alternate forms in melee, this is a good thing. Killing more things faster = good.

The big thing with Chei is that if you have ranged opponents and good melee, there is literally no reason why you shouldn't be using your Invos (bend time, I believe) to plop them right beside you. It's ridiculously low piety, enough that you'll earn it back (or more) from killing those ranged opponents. Plus amulets of reflection help too.

I will check out that guide, though, and thanks for the tips.

Yes, those steam dragons would have been death. I usually don't have a problem with that vault, but I also usually have builds that kill faster and have better healing potions. I do remember one time I was able to lure them apart, kill one that luckily dropped its armor, and then get rSteam to kill the rest. I could be wrong but I THINK one time I had the scarf of cloud immunity that helped to. Not sure, though.

All of that is tempting yes, but the issue with chei is when you get into a bad situation its much harder to get out of it or even minmize it (i.e. you git hit multiple times as you run to a corridior). Thefore Chei player need to either be incredibly tanky, incredibly good at maasive damage AOE, or have ranged options. For an Op this typically mean going chei statue for the incredibly tanky and later also getting some spells (lesser beckoning and some ranged damage and maybe darkness).

However you have to survive long enough to get all these online. It is pretty likely you will run into a few situations that will essentially kill you because you are not quite the complete badass you need to be. Chei is kind of weird in that "normal" encounters are breezed through and even some single normally hard stuff is much easier. But when you wind up in the middle of a pack or mobs keep coming to get worn down and die. I eventually came to the conclusion that Chei players should immediately get slouch castable ASAP and if they see a situation that can snowball they should preemtpively slouch everything to death.

I have 15 runed a couple of chei-podes and its workable and be powerful. But overall I get tired of the way it plays (everything does 2-3 action evertyime you move wears on my mind) and other gods are actually better starts even if the stat increases feel good. For example Okawaru Hero+finesse can be gotten very early and is really just as useful to any UC focused start (such as Tm or UC Fi) and you can still get away from things. Even with just Heroism you get a roughly equivalent power increase for UC combat and no downside (plus oka gifts will very likely give you a decent shield and hat both of which can be hard to find) Later in the game Mahkleb is very good for dragon form since it kills so fast.

Play Chei if you want, I cerrtainly have, but in reality it really is a harder not an easier start. Its cool to have a statuepode with 40/40/40 defenses that hits for melee damage over 100 and can cast glaciate though. So you know its a thing to do. But I would say it is a harder start than certain other things

Friday, 29th September 2017, 18:10 by TonberryJam

About the statement ice beasts being enough for Lair. I've found it lacking, personally. Espsically against Blink Frog packs.

If you are want to enjoy OpTm of Chei, you should consider the primary weakpoints of the starting combo and fix it.
low UC dmg, low AC, average stats.

It takes a while to get good returns on dodge and it would be better to focus on UC and Fighting instead. Since an Octopod has low AC, it would be better to train Stealth. This increases survivability quit well. And, you only need about 12 stealth for anything not "intelligent". So the combo of UC, Fighting, and Stealth will balance out the weak points of Octopod melee, but not fix the problems. Thus, you will still want to retreat from packs that aren't popcorn and single strong opponents should be lured to cleared ares early on in the game.

Of course, if you happen to find useful wands, then training evocations will always come in handy. This will keep your melee weak, but give you options to deal with stronger threats for the cost of a couple dungeons worth of xp.

When you get Chei, you are going to want to train invocations high enough to make all abilities except the step from time ability to 1% or 2%. This is somewhere around 9 skill or 11 skill if I remember correctly. Mostly because you can and should be using his abilities often. The first two abilities are quit good for melee applications. Even just getting the first 2 skills to 1% would be enough for early game.

So at what point to train the magic is always tricky. Since you got Chei, waiting for the stat boosts can make getting the spellpower more easy. I'd wait until atleast Fighting and UC at skill level 6. Then maybe get your appendage and sticks online, which would probalby be around skill 4.5 for appendage and skill 6 for snakes. And just train Transmutation only. Int from Chei will take care of the rest.

As to which point to put into level ups? Up to you.

Sunday, 1st October 2017, 22:09 by WingedEspeon

I like taking about 3 levels in poison early to get spider for to about 34% fail.
Also, Chie is really bad for OpTm.

Monday, 2nd October 2017, 05:17 by VeryAngryFelid

WingedEspeon wrote:Also, Chie is really bad

FTFY

Tuesday, 3rd October 2017, 02:52 by WingedEspeon

VeryAngryFelid wrote:
WingedEspeon wrote:Also, Chie is really bad

FTFY

To be fair, chie is only slightly bad on MiFi, and good for MiFi speedruns.

Tuesday, 3rd October 2017, 15:38 by Shtopit

Unless things recently changed, rF+ should give you steam immunity, while steam immunity per se (found on st dr sc) doesn't protect you against fire.

Thursday, 5th October 2017, 10:08 by Reptisaurus

watertreatmentRL wrote:You waste xp on magic that you don't need and you don't train core physical skills, like UC. In this game you also wasted xp on shields, a skill you would obviously get no use of for a long time, perhaps never if your endgame was blade hands (always a reasonable option).

Not so reasonable on octopodes 'cause Blade Hands will meld your rings.

Your go to shapechange spell progression should be Spider Form --- > Ice Form ---> Dragon form (or statue I GUESS if you can't find dragon.)

For what it's worth, Octopode Transmuters are an unstoppable Pan-Lord killing engine of rage in extended.

It's tough to get there, but if you can beat the first 50 levels, the rest is cake!

Friday, 6th October 2017, 01:52 by WingedEspeon

Blades hands doesn't meld rings.

Saturday, 7th October 2017, 17:08 by Vajrapani

This advice is a bit late, but you'll get the hang of an Octopode's preferred combat situation if you play something like an OpFi, since it isn't as flimsy as an OpTm and has a very simple playstyle so you'll notice the tactical side of playing an octopode a little more as opposed to just spamming X spell. The idea is that you will always want to split packs,avoid dangerous enemies and force 1v1's whenever possible with your spicy +4 stealthy aptitude, and run away from anything that isn't a 1v1.

Having normal speed is very useful for this strategy and Chei doesn't really give much benefit until lategame for you anyway. I would recommend going with Yred and then switching to Chei once you have statue form castable, Yred wrath is a complete joke and and you also get the added benefit of playing with Chei at the stage of the game where it's actually fun as opposed to the horror that is early-game Chei on an octopode.

Octopode Transmuter Advice

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