SpEn^Dith 15 rune guide, kill-them-all build

[papilio]

***KILL-THEM-ALL build***

LvUP Stat:
4 STR, 5 DEX (to effectively use eudemon blade lately)

Pre-lair:
Just stab everything with Confuse/Ensorcelled Hibernation.

Weapon: dagger of venom/electrocution/draining
Skill: Fighting 3, SBl 6, Dodging 9 / Splcast 4, Conj 1, Hex 7, Ice 1 / Invo 5, Evo 9, Stealth 14


Lair/Orc/D:~15:
Just stab everything with Confuse/Ensorcelled Hibernation/Dazzling Spray/Invisibility.
Wand of scattershot/clouds is damn useful if you put a little exp on evo.
Collect all nets you see.

Weapon: dagger of venom/electrocution/draining -> rapier ofelectrocution
Armour: +2 robe of resistance / steam dragon scales + buckler
Spell that you must learn if you find: Repel Missiles, Blink, Regeneration, Ozocubu's Armour, Invisibiility, Animate Skeleton, Spectal Weapon, Apportation, Passwall
Skill: Fighting 8, SBl 11, Dodging 15, Shield 6 / Splcast 9, Conj 1, Hex 11, Charm 6, Necr 1, Transloc 4, Ice 1, Air 1 / Invo 9, Evo 9, Stealth 23


2 rune/Elf:
Basically, just kill everything with invis stab.
Spider: For entropy weaver, use some dazzling sprays.
Shoals: easy
Swamp: For thorn hunter, use dazzling spray. For tentacled monstrosities, use dazzling spray. For lernaean hydra, use wand of scattershot.
Snake: hard. confuse/hibernation will work. Use dazzling for nagarajas
Elf: For high-tier elf mages, use dazzling.

Weapon: rapier of electrocution
Armour: +5 steam dragon scales/+3 buckler of resistance is the best

Skill: Fighting 10, SBl 14, Armour 3.7, Dodging 20, Shield 7.2
Splcast 10, Conj 1, Hex 12, Charm 6, Necr 1, Tloc 4, Tmut 3, Ice 1, Air 1, Earth 1
Invo 13, Evo 9, Stealth 27


Vaults 1~4 -> Depths -> Crypt -> Vaults 5

Just kill everything as you did before.
Curse skull: Malign Gateway+Abjuration
Ancient lich/Greater mummy: Malign Gateway -> Spectral weapon+Regen -> Silence
Titan/Tentacled Monstrosity: Malign Gateway+Spectral Weapon
Mennas: quaff haste and run.
Others: Just stab

Spell to learn: Aura of abjuration, Deflect Missiles, Malign Gateway, Passage of Golubria ->Controlled Blink
Not must-have, but useful: Dispersal, Darkness, Disjunction, Silence, Yara's violent unravelling

Skill: Fighting 13, SBl 14, Armour 3.7, Dodging 27, Shield 7.2
Splcast 17, Conj 1, Hex 12, Charm 12, Necr 1, Tloc 18, Tmut 3, Ice 1, Air 6, Earth 1
Invo 13, Evo 9, Stealth 27


Abyss: Get 4th rune and raise up Evo 18 -> SBl 18 here.

Slime: Quaff might+agil -> shadow step to TRJ (do not use shadowform) -> BOOM!
If stab fails, then use wand of cloud and scattershot.

Before Pan, prepare +9 blowgun and collect all needles (except poison), nets.

Pan
Splcast 18, Tloc 21 -> Throwing 18 -> LBl 12

pick eudemon blade on holy floor and enchant it to +9.

Tormentor/Hellion/Neqoxec: Confuse/Inv, all works great
Executioner: dazzling
Brimstone Fiend/Ice Fiend/Tzitzimitl/Daeva/Seraph/Pan Lords: needle + Malign Gateway
Ignacio: yara->blink->yara->blink->needle
Mennas: quaff haste+might+agil, Malign->needle


Tomb
Evo 27 -> Throwing 27
Regen->Abj->Silence->Eudemon slash


Hell/Zot
Put rest exp to Fighting/LBl/Hex 18 (If you wand discord) or whatever you want
Erase Silence
In Zot Erase Controlled Blink and replace it to Disjunction.
Orb of fire: quaff might+agil+haste+res, wield eudemon, kill it with malign+spectral weapon

[MainiacJoe]

Dazzling spray has only a 20% chance of dazzling a thorn Hunter. That is below my threshold of "worth trying" because I figure I have better things to be doing in five turns. But perhaps I need to revisit that threshold.

[PowerOfKaishin]

Dazzling spray has only a 20% chance of dazzling a thorn Hunter. That is below my threshold of "worth trying" because I figure I have better things to be doing in five turns. But perhaps I need to revisit that threshold.

How else do you plan to kill it? >.>

Mana vipers or some discord shenanigans could work but I can't see much else.

[stickyfingers]

Animate Dead kills them easy. That's one of the reasons Kiku is better for SpEn than Dith (breaking news: spriggans don't need more stealth than they already get for super-cheap). Also nets, but that is like 100x less reliable than Just Going Kiku™

[Sprucery]

(breaking news: spriggans don't need more stealth than they already get for super-cheap)

Well, more stealth is always better. Lots of stealth doubled is twice better than just lots of stealth. Also, shadow step is extremely powerful.

That said, I have no experience on 15-rune spriggans so Kiku may well be better all things considered.

[Siegurt]

Well, more stealth is always better.

Sometimes more stealth is not better, sometimes it is the same.

[VeryAngryFelid]

Well, more stealth is always better.

Sometimes more stealth is not better, sometimes it is the same.

The same applies to everything else in crawl: HP, MP, resistances, slaying etc.

[MainiacJoe]

Dazzling spray has only a 20% chance of dazzling a thorn Hunter. That is below my threshold of "worth trying" because I figure I have better things to be doing in five turns. But perhaps I need to revisit that threshold.

How else do you plan to kill it? >.>

Mana vipers or some discord shenanigans could work but I can't see much else.

Oh you misunderstood me: I wasn't commenting about this case in particular, but more generally talking out loud about realizing that I'd been undervaluing hexes with 20-30% success rates.

[duvessa]

the great thing about spen advice is that if someone says to take dith on spen, you know you can just ignore all of their advice

[Nino]

the great thing about spen advice is that if someone says to take dith on spen, you know you can just ignore all of their advice

can you elaborate?

even without considering dith's stealth bonus, he still offers umbra, shadow step, shadow form, fog on hit, and shadow mimic

is it that unoptimal to go dith because spriggans will already have a phenomenal stealth rating from just training stealth skill to 1 shot dudes?

or does fast movement simply trump dith's abilities and make other gods that much more appealing?

[papilio]

Actually Dithmenos is better than 70% of gods at every stage of game for stabbers (90% for them, not 70%), mages, or even warriors.

I'd rather ignore all advices from who say TSO is not good in postend with no online win logs with Dith/TSO.

[papilio]

More stealth is always good, considering that Spriggan's stealth is greatly nerfed after flattening of racial stealth modifier
and environmental noise system is reworked, the importance of stealth has became greater even more.

I think Oka/Kiku would be other viable choices for 15 runes, but Dith play seems more comfortable.

[stickyfingers]

even without considering dith's stealth bonus, he still offers umbra, shadow step, shadow form, fog on hit, and shadow mimic

So just defensive bonuses (except shadow mimic, which is a very minor offense boost for Sbl melee) for a race that already can "defend" from everything by walking away.

is it that unoptimal to go dith because spriggans will already have a phenomenal stealth rating from just training stealth skill to 1 shot dudes?

Yes, that's one of the reasons. Also "doubling your stealth" to decrease detection chance from 0.25% to 0.125% is not significant or worth a god slot.

or does fast movement simply trump dith's abilities and make other gods that much more appealing?

This one is also true.

Generally a SpEn has no trouble whatsoever with stabbing 90% of the game's monsters, and increasing your stabbing targetbase to 93% or so is not worth denying yourself the ability to deal with the remaining ones. Your best bets are the gods that give you a way to reliably deal with them, the top one being minions, so Kiku (also enhances your melee and several other minor things, so is the best one), Yred, Mak, Nemelex, Lugonu and Fedhas.

Actually Dithmenos is better than 70% of gods at every stage of game for stabbers (90% for them, not 70%), mages, or even warriors.

If you insist on something like a OgAs stabber, then possibly. SpEn? Just no.

I think Oka/Kiku would be other viable choices for 15 runes, but Dith play seems more comfortable.

It's actually quite funny, since Oka is an even worse SpEn god, and Oka specifically for 15 runes on a SpEn is nuts (as in, doable, but the bottom 5 choice).

[Midn8]

Dith actually increases your stabbing base from 90% to 99%, due to shadow mimic doubling down on hexes and shadow step giving free stabs. The last 1% you can probably kill with things like scattershot.

[Siegurt]

Dith actually increases your stabbing base from 90% to 99%, due to shadow mimic doubling down on hexes and shadow step giving free stabs. The last 1% you can probably kill with things like scattershot.

Note that last i checked your shadows enchantment power with hexes sucked, and wasn't proportional to your skill (iirc it used the monster version, that uses the hd of the critter, which wasn't like particularly high or anything) so your shadows hexes have a pretty crappy chance of working compared to your own once you have decent hexes skill, "doubling up" on hexes was more like "maybe randomly hex one more critter ever", maybe this has changed since last i source dived (?)

Distraction stabs from your shadow attacking are real enough though. Although taking advantage of it means you are attacking in regular melee with a short blade, which sucks to start with. Improving "horribly crappy idea" to "not quite as bad" isn't something to brag about. (Maybe if you have like a quick blade of elec or something, so regular short blade attacks aren't such a terrible idea to start with)

[Midn8]

Pretty sure that hexes keep the same power, but melee and spells get reduced. Shadow step is not your shadow, it is the ability that lets you port next to a sleeping monster at instant speed.

[Sprucery]

Shadow step is the thing. You only need to go unnoticed for two turns (first turn when you notice the monster, second when you shadow step it). Without Dith you have to walk up to the monster. This is a pretty big difference, especially when Dith is doubling your stealth.

[Midn8]

Shadow step takes no time, so only 1 turn.

[severen]

Dazzling spray has only a 20% chance of dazzling a thorn Hunter. That is below my threshold of "worth trying" because I figure I have better things to be doing in five turns. But perhaps I need to revisit that threshold.

You may be under estimating the damage contribution of shadow mimic blast on dazzling spray. Dith dazzling spray is much more of a nuke than non-dith so you can afford to spam it a few times to get the dazzle since you are still doing decent damage. At 20% chance to succeed x 3 times you have a 50% chance of dazzling something, since those three casts are also fairly good damage this is not as bad a strategy as it is for other gods.

If we take 5 casts you have 66% to dazzle and will have proced shadow mimic blast at least twice and often 3 times. This can be more damage than the equivalent amount of SBL attacks and also setup possible stabbing.