GSC and GC as Ogre?

[arandomperson12]

When should you use one as a Ogre? Immediately upon finding one, or when your skill reaches the mindelay?

[Dungeoneer]

When should you use one as a Ogre? Immediately upon finding one, or when your skill reaches the mindelay?

i always use it when i get one. unless you have a better weapon (flail of protection or some sort of thing)

[arandomperson12]

Should you immediately train m&f to mindelay, or do some defensive skills first?

[KoboldLord]

You can't reasonably afford to beeline minimum delay with a GSC. It is outrageously expensive. Maces will probably be your highest-level skill throughout most of the game, but you can't afford to delay defenses when you're as fragile as an ogre.

[arandomperson12]

Should you use a gsc or just a gc?

nvm, died after I saw a hydra, thought it had only 5 heads (tiles only displays up to 5 of them), then got killed. Previously, I had killed a 4 headed one, so I thought a 5 headed one would be no threat. I tried to quaff a haste potion, but I was already at low health, so I died.

[dowan]

GC seems to be a much better investment XP wise, so it generally makes sense to stick with that, and use the extra XP in defensive skills and maybe some utility skills (Like getting enough charms/air magic/spellcasting for repel missiles, for example).

If you're a berserker, or there's a really nice GSC you might consider going for it, but the difference between 18 and 24 skill is HUGE, and doesn't really justify getting 2 more base damage. In fact... even as a berserker it's tough to justify using that XP on M&F rather than more fighting, dodging, armour, throwing, or evocations.

[Magipi]

the difference between 18 and 24 skill is HUGE

But the difference between 20 and 22 is much smaller.

Or have they changed them recently?

[MainiacJoe]

GC has better accuracy, which is more significant the lower your skill level is.

[4Hooves2Appendages]

The answer is a complicated mix of skill level, enchantment level, brand, slaying, fighting skill, and so on. That is a perfect application for fsim. There will be cases when an eveningstar or great mace will do more damage than a plain GC or GSC. Which weapon is better will also vary depending on the enemy.

[dowan]

the difference between 18 and 24 skill is HUGE

But the difference between 20 and 22 is much smaller.

Or have they changed them recently?

I thought it was in version .17 that they changed, but I'm not sure exactly. Unless it was changed again very recently, those min delay skill numbers should be correct.

GC does have 1 better accuracy, I don't think that's significant enough to have much weight in the decision.

[Arrhythmia]

When to use a GSC - When you find one.
When to use a GC - When you find one, but haven't found a GSC.

[4Hooves2Appendages]

Alternatively, ask Oka nicely for some artefacts, and combine a good 1h with a large shield. The heresy!

Hardly ever touched any GC's or GSC's on my recent ogre. But I regret nothing. Nothing!

  Code:

 Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.18.1-47-g9310371 (webtiles) character file.

2341539 4Hooves2Appendages the Slayer (level 23, 234/261 HPs)
             Began as an Ogre Fighter on June 7, 2016.
             Was the Champion of Okawaru.
             Escaped with the Orb
             ... and 3 runes on June 14, 2016!
             
             The game lasted 10:12:57 (34234 turns).

4Hooves2Appendages the Slayer (Ogre Fighter)       Turns: 34234, Time: 10:12:58

Health: 234/261    AC: 23    Str: 27    XL:     23   Next: 72%
Magic:  35/35      EV: 19    Int:  8    God:    Okawaru [******]
Gold:   2866       SH: 22    Dex: 28    Spells: 4 memorised, 28 levels left

rFire  + . .      SeeInvis +    a - +11 morningstar "Eos" {elec, -Tele rElec SInv}
rCold  + . .      Gourm    .    n - +5 ice dragon armour of the Doge {rF- rC++ Dex+2 Slay+6}
rNeg   . . .      Faith    +    T - +2 large shield {rPois}
rPois  +          Spirit   .    y - +0 hat
rElec  +          Dismiss  .    v - +2 cloak {MR+}
rCorr  .          Reflect  .    (gloves unavailable)
SustAt .          Harm     .    (boots unavailable)
MR     ++++.      NoTele   +    m - amulet of faith
Stlth  +.........               F - ring "Obous" {*Confuse rF+ MR+ Dex+7 SInv}
                                Q - ring of Ifaesush {Fire +Blink Dex+4}

Hand Weapons
 a - the +11 morningstar "Eos" (weapon) {elec, -Tele rElec SInv}
   (Okawaru gifted it to you on level 11 of the Dungeon)   
   
   Occasionally, upon striking a foe, it will discharge some electrical energy
   and cause terrible harm.
   
   It insulates you from electricity.
   It lets you see invisible.
   It prevents most forms of teleportation.
 b - the +1 eveningstar "Brilliance" {holy, rN+ AC+5 Int+5}
   (Okawaru gifted it to you on level 3 of the Vaults)   
   
   It has been blessed by the Shining One to cause great damage to the undead
   and demons.
   
   It affects your AC (+5).
   It affects your intelligence (+5).
   It protects you from negative energy.
 g - a +1 blowgun of evasion
 V - the +3 giant club "Skullcrusher" {speed, Str+7}
   (Okawaru gifted it to you on level 5 of the Lair of Beasts)   
   
   Attacks with this weapon are significantly faster.
   
   It affects your strength (+7).

Action                   |  1- 3 |  4- 6 |  7- 9 | 10-12 | 13-15 | 16-18 | 19-21 | 22-24 || total
-------------------------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------++-------
Melee: Flail             |    47 |   133 |   299 |    28 |       |       |       |       ||   507
       Whip              |    25 |    80 |       |   136 |       |       |       |       ||   241
       Dagger            |       |     7 |    25 |       |       |       |       |       ||    32
       Dire flail        |       |       |       |   272 |       |       |       |       ||   272
       Morningstar       |       |       |       |   231 |  1125 |   950 |   784 |   341 ||  3431
       Giant spiked club |       |       |       |     7 |       |       |       |       ||     7
       Eveningstar       |       |       |       |       |       |    43 |   180 |   101 ||   324
       Staff             |       |       |       |       |       |       |     1 |       ||     1

[Reptisaurus]

Use Giant club as soon as you get it.

Giant spiked club is, actually, not any better than giant club until you hit skill level 23 or something ridiculous.

Use giant club, or eveningstar and shield.

[ydeve]

I thought someone fsimmed this and found gsc is usually better.

[ximxim]

I thought someone fsimmed this and found gsc is usually better.

Tried against balrugs, giant clubs are slightly better at 22 skill (26,7 GC vs 25,8 GSC damage). VS someone with higher armor like Tiamat the giant spiked club was slightly better, 16,8 GSC vs 16,3 GC.

[Sar]

Why wouldn't a giant club user have mindelayed GSCs when it's time to face Balrugs and Tiamats?

[ximxim]

Why wouldn't a giant club user have mindelayed GSCs when it's time to face Balrugs and Tiamats?

I just used them as examples, as far as I know only monster defences matter when fsimming to figure out damage, IIRC Balrugs have fairly mediocre ones and Tiamat pretty good ones.

[TonberryJam]

The club will only do poorly with low skill level when fighting more than one creature adjacent to you for the most part.

[4Hooves2Appendages]

I didn't think the number of monsters adjacent to the player had any impact on player damage. (Unless they are wielding an axe of course.)

[genericpseudonym]

I didn't think the number of monsters adjacent to the player had any impact on player damage. (Unless they are wielding an axe of course.)

However it does have a pretty significant impact on player health.

I guess the idea is that a GC gives you less opportunity to suddenly find yourself missing all of your HP after unwisely deciding to swing a 2.0 delay weapon while surrounded by 8 gnolls.

[Hurkyl]

There was a time where the forum was fanatical about getting weapon delay to 1.0.

[4Hooves2Appendages]

The club will perform exactly the same whether you've got one monster adjacent or eight. Standing next to eight monsters is usually extremely dangerous irrespective of the weapon.

I feel less threatened if an enemy can only hit me once for each attack I carry out. Many hard hitting early game enemies (hobgoblins and gnolls say) come with weapons though. As a result they attack slower than 10 aut, so 1.0 attack delay isn't a magic number. Later in the game when the player has more health and better defences this becomes much less important.

[MainiacJoe]

The club will only do poorly with low skill level when fighting more than one creature adjacent to you for the most part.

This is a new observation for me, but I think it's right. Low-skill G(S)C is playing the damage surge game, infrequent coin flips for massive-or-no damage. The inherent risk is that you'll miss several times in a row. If we assume that your foe is closer to the smooth damage output game of more frequent smaller swings, then this risk translates into taking damage without giving any. In that context, it is easy to see how facing one foe is preferable to facing many foes at once--if eventually you're going to miss several times in a row, then you want only one guy hitting back, not several.

[njvack]

In that context, it is easy to see how facing one foe is preferable to facing many foes at once--if eventually you're going to miss several times in a row, then you want only one guy hitting back, not several.

Wait, what? In literally every situation in Crawl, it's better to have one guy hitting you than several. There is absolutely nothing special about swinging a slow weapon in this context.

[MainiacJoe]

In that context, it is easy to see how facing one foe is preferable to facing many foes at once--if eventually you're going to miss several times in a row, then you want only one guy hitting back, not several.

Wait, what? In literally every situation in Crawl, it's better to have one guy hitting you than several. There is absolutely nothing special about swinging a slow weapon in this context.

Agreed. What I noticed that I hadn't before is how slow weapon speed makes being surrounded even worse. I just hadn't made that connection before.

[MainiacJoe]

njvack, upon further reflection I think I'm seeing more of what you meant by, "There is absolutely nothing special about swinging a slow weapon in this context." AvgEffDam is exactly that, and if the GSC and the flail have the save AvgEffDam, then combats will last the same amount of time on average. Is that what you're referring to? If so, even then I think I still have a point, because the overall probability curve of dmg/aut for the slower weapon will have fatter tails because it is the sum of fewer individual probability curves. The risk we want to avoid is RNG putting us in the wrong tail of no damage over a long period of time; if I'm correct, the slow weapon has a greater probability of that occurence.

[njvack]

Yeah, large slow weapons have higher-variance damage/time. See Dark Maul and Sniper for particularly extreme examples. But! Whether your weapon is higher- or lower-variance, the basic tactics remain the same -- fight one monster at a time, have an escape plan at the ready for when things go wrong, etc. You're going to fight thousands of monsters over the course of a game, so you need to be prepared for rare events. If they're a bit more rare or less rare, it doesn't matter that much.

[4Hooves2Appendages]

The increased variance from using lower hit chance / higher damage weapons cuts both ways. Sometimes you'll pulverise enemies very quickly. Of course I wouldn't advocate to rely on that.

Player damage variance is not the primary reason why I try to fight enemies one on one. I think it's nearly irrelevant to the discussion about giant clubs.

[dowan]

When to use a GSC - When you find one.
When to use a GC - When you find one, but haven't found a GSC.

I used to do it that way with the old numbers, but since they changed the GSC or the GC to have a different base delay, things have changed a bit.

It takes only 18 skill for min delay on the 20 base damage GC
it takes 24 skill for min delay on the 22 base damage GSC

It is really hard to come up with a justification for spending all that XP just for 2 more base damage. Even on a BE you probably have better places to put that XP...

[Arrhythmia]

When to use a GSC - When you find one.
When to use a GC - When you find one, but haven't found a GSC.

I used to do it that way with the old numbers, but since they changed the GSC or the GC to have a different base delay, things have changed a bit.

It takes only 18 skill for min delay on the 20 base damage GC
it takes 24 skill for min delay on the 22 base damage GSC

It is really hard to come up with a justification for spending all that XP just for 2 more base damage. Even on a BE you probably have better places to put that XP...

Huh. Yeah sounds like GC's are better for most of the game then.

[Reptisaurus]

Not sure. If you're GSC-ing it you're playing an ogre 99% of the time, so you'll have a + 3 maces. I'd roughly guess you'd hit min-delay on giant spiked club around the end of the dungeon/beginning of the lair branches.

[dowan]

Yeah... but you can hit min-delay on a GC even faster, and use that XP on fighting, dodging, throwing, etc. The difference in cost between 18 skill and 24 skill is a ton, and I'd rather have 18 m&f and swing around 20 base damage at min delay, and have 24 fighting skill, than have 24 m&f and have 22 base damage with only 18 fighting.

Those extra HPs will help a lot more than 2 more base damage. And you obviously could use that XP to get more EV too, or even AC if you've found decent dragon armor.

It's pretty much the same idea as not training for a triple sword instead of a great sword, and that's a difference of 3 base damage, and still generally considered not worth it.