Dealing with hydras (was: Hydra head chopping (was: Riposte))

[Sandman25]

Hydras do change the way I play melee Nagas and Chei characters, I basically must go with M&F

[MainiacJoe]

minmay is right, the number of attacks is more important than the head growth.

They're not actually a scary monster once you learn ...

The "once you learn" is the key bit. No, they aren't scary to me anymore, either. I was remembering when i was first learning the game, when I died to hydras more than to any other Lair enemy combined I expect. Hydras, like centaurs and orc priests and adders, are "bosses" for new players

The head-chopping thing is part of it. I still remember in 0.15, a HaFi that made it to Lair and was doing awesome, oh, short swords lop heads, too? (killed by an eighteen-headed hydra). See, this belongs in the "when i was new to Crawl" thread, because I was just tabbing away and not noticing that I was multiplying heads. But it sure was memorable, and after the sting wore off, a super-fun death.

[njvack]

Hydras do change the way I play melee Nagas and Chei characters, I basically must go with M&F

In case this isn't a joke(?) you can learn conjurations or other ranged attacks or just hit them with a blade and have good enough offense + defense to outdamage their healing and tank the attacks.

[Sandman25]

In case this isn't a joke(?) you can learn conjurations or other ranged attacks or just hit them with a blade and have good enough offense + defense to outdamage their healing and tank the attacks.

It wasn't a joke. What you described is exactly what I meant - I can't play the way I want (pure melee with axes is very good with Naga and Chei IMHO), hydras make me change that. Tanking attacks is a dangerous plan with the way crawl battles work: you can miss a lot or deal no damage while the hydra regens HP and keeps new heads. Teleporting away if in danger is not a good answer because then you have 10+ headed hydra which is at full HP.

[Shtopit]

BTW, long blades cross trains with short blades, and axes cross trains with m&f. I have sometimes gone to the Lair with a sb in lack of a flaming lb, and it didn't go badly. Even for weapon users, this means that there are alternatives.
The only problem I couldn't solve was with a troll fighting unarmed, as trolls have low AC, cannot cauterize wounds inflicted with their hands and chop off heads quickly. Maybe having Unarmed cross train with short blades?

[ydeve]

Large rocks or running away (speed 10 monster).

[TonberryJam]

Even with Hydra Head regeneration they die fast to high damage output. Typically, high STR or damage boosting sources rip through the hydras before they beat you up with 8+ heads. Any Trog worshiper or high STR character does well.

For Long Blades Ice Brand helps against a hydra if you don't have flame. Shields also helps if you have a one-hander.
Drain works well against a hydra, better with the short blade. Same with poison if you can kite it.

[duvessa]

high STR character
Shields also helps if you have a one-hander.
Same with poison if you can kite it.

I've never seen such a high density of misinformation about fighting hydras before...
Str doesn't increase damage by as much as you think.
Shields are awful against hydras because hydras get many attacks (after a successful block, further blocks on that turn become harder).
Hydras have rPois so venom/needles/etc. are pretty bad against them.

[Arrhythmia]

high STR character
Shields also helps if you have a one-hander.
Same with poison if you can kite it.

I've never seen such a high density of misinformation about fighting hydras before...
Str doesn't increase damage by as much as you think.
Shields are awful against hydras because hydras get many attacks (after a successful block, further blocks on that turn become harder).
Hydras have rPois so venom/needles/etc. are pretty bad against them.

"use a shield with a one-hander" does seem pretty solid though, IMO

[Sandman25]

Head-chopping/slicing really does not noticeably increase the danger level of hydras. Given their speed they are really only scary if they generate right next to stairs, or I guess if you get caught out of position in swamp.

In my last game I almost died to a 19-headed hydra with +10 vampiric great sword at min delay with about AC 45, EV 9 and 200 HP (had to use wand of acid in 3 last attacks). About 5 XL before that I killed several hydras with +4 scimitar of flaming without any problems. Is it noticeable effect of decapitation?

Edit. And yes, I am Naga of Trog. No need to make hydra more dangerous for the combo, I would die easily without flaming brand.

[nago]

You could have zerked, or BIA.

[Sandman25]

You could have zerked, or BIA.

BiA is good, yes, my point is that hydra is very dangerous due to the extra heads effect.

[4Hooves2Appendages]

I'm not convinced. With those defences you could've killed the hydra with any short blade. By that point a dagger of draining or something is quite common and would've been completely fine.

The reason why I said head chopping isn't dangerous is because nobody ever forces you to chop the heads.

[Sandman25]

I'm not convinced. With those defences you could've killed the hydra with any short blade. By that point a dagger of draining or something is quite common and would've been completely fine.

The reason why I said head chopping isn't dangerous is because nobody ever forces you to chop the heads.

Why should I use dagger of draining instead of +10 vampiric great sword vs not-dangerous monster?
Ghost Moth is not dangerous because nobody ever forces you to kill it with spells. Caustik shrike/iron giant/juggernaut is not dangerous because nobody ever forces you to kill it with melee. Orb of fire is not dangerous because nobody forces you to kill it. See the pattern?

[4Hooves2Appendages]

Just to say, I'm not having a go at you. I might've used the +10 vamp sword too. But I think we both know that it's not the best decision. The reason to use an ego dagger against this harmless monster is that the monster stays harmless! Imagine you had a +10 vamp sword that gave your enemies might and healed them. I wouldn't use that.

Even if a hydra gets adjacent to player characters it is possible for almost all (not Na, Chei) of them to completely avoid taking any damage. That is not true for speed >10 monsters, like ghost moths, caustic shrikes, orbs of fire and juggernauts. Outside of range 5, iron giants are actually harmless.

Hydras are speed 10. You can choose not to heal them and not to make them stronger. A long blades using Na or Chei character needs a plan for hydras before entering lair. With decent defences, most ego short blades will do without extra training. Without decent defences strong range or summons are needed. Without any of those the character is in trouble and hydras are unlikely to be the only problem.

[Sandman25]

Imagine you had a +10 vamp sword that gave your enemies might and healed them.

Head-chopping/slicing really does not noticeably increase the danger level of hydras

There is a contradiction here IMHO. I had another hydra in Vaults 5 kill hole, my weapon was even weaker this time (+5 vampiric double sword) so I berserked, previously I was killing dangerous monsters like Titans, mighted Vault Wardens and Tentacled Monstrosities non-stop without any berserk (shield of gong). I don't see how you can keep saying that head-chopping/slicing does not noticeably change danger of the monster.

[ydeve]

Ghost Moth is not dangerous because nobody ever forces you to kill it with spells. Caustik shrike/iron giant/juggernaut is not dangerous because nobody ever forces you to kill it with melee. Orb of fire is not dangerous because nobody forces you to kill it. See the pattern?

Lair hydras are speed 10. In Swamp, though, you have a case.

[Sandman25]

Lair hydras are speed 10. In Swamp, though, you have a case.

I am a Naga.

[genericpseudonym]

Hydras are already dangerous without the head chopping. And now you're being forced to use an inferior weapon. And the increase in danger level is insignificant?

Edit: long blades crosstrain with ... short blades.

Head chopping doesn't make hydras super dangerous to non-nagas for the same reason high base damage doesn't make worms dangerous to D:1 characters.

I agree that it's a big threat for cheinagas. But those guys have all sorts of unique-to-them difficulties.

[4Hooves2Appendages]

Hydras are already dangerous without the head chopping.

They really aren't. Move delay 10 aut basically makes player characters almost invulnerable to speed 10 melee only monsters.

[ydeve]

I just said that and then sandman said naga...

[Sandman25]

They really aren't. Move delay 10 aut basically makes player characters almost invulnerable to speed 10 melee only monsters.

That is famous meme but people keep dying to Ogres, Gnolls and other speed 10 monsters. Sometimes you just have to fight, avoiding multiple dangerous monsters on a single floor is not easy/pleasant. It reminds me of player ghosts by the way.

Also Hydra is especially bad for avoiding because it is a common Lair monster and if you are always running away from hydras, you can be attacked by fast Lair monsters like Black Mamba or Spiny Frog. If you take time to kill those fast monsters, you can get adjacent hydra instead.

Edit. Also hydra can stop kill hole tactics deadly, you create a kill hole for killing those Blink Frogs and then a hydra comes into view.

[4Hooves2Appendages]

If you compare the danger level of different lair things then hydras are somewhere between yak and death yak. All three are way below spiny frogs, blink frogs, black mambas and rime drakes.

And as I said above, if you're a Naga (or Chei, or both) going into lair with non-flaming long blades being your main damage choice, then you need to bring an alternative! If you haven't got one (hard to believe), then you need to use consumables aggressively. That's a pretty special case though.

I agree that avoiding multiple enemies on multiple levels can be tedious. How many hydras are there on average in lair? I've rarely killed more than 10 in all of lair (without swamp). I personally don't think it's a huge problem. Many long blades character that want to kill hydras often have other options available anyway.

Getting caught in a killhole by a hydra is definitely bad. You can deal with the situation if you can survive one turn. If you can't then it's pretty similar to getting caught by anything else dangerous.

This is kind of turning into a tactics discussion though...

[TonberryJam]

If you're talking about 8+ headed hydras, then shields aren't that great. I wasn't.

If STR=damage sources I would have written STR, or damage sources. I left the comma out to imply the passive STR bonuses of raising dodge and shield bonuses from armour penalties.

Kiting usually takes a while.

[CPTANT]

Hydras are already dangerous without the head chopping.

They really aren't. Move delay 10 aut basically makes player characters almost invulnerable to speed 10 melee only monsters.

Good luck running from hydras in the swamp.

[Arrhythmia]

Hydras are already dangerous without the head chopping.

They really aren't. Move delay 10 aut basically makes player characters almost invulnerable to speed 10 melee only monsters.

Good luck running from hydras in the swamp.

hydrae aren't dangerous by swamp carte blanche

[njvack]

Mod note: I tried to split the "hey how do I kill hydras" parts of this thread from GDD to here, and I think I deleted a bunch of posts in the process. Sorry about that :/

If you see the rest of the posts, let me know and I'll merge 'em back in this thread.

Update: All sorted out!

[njvack]

Hydras do change the way I play melee Nagas and Chei characters, I basically must go with M&F

You could train axes and bash hydras with a mace on crosstraining alone (or pick up a few cheap levels of M&F).

[tasonir]

So hydras are a great learning experience, although I haven't seen anyone mention the defensive approach - just get your AC fairly high and hydras quickly become weak. You could still get a really bad roll, but if you're able to get around 15, or even better 20 ac, then they won't hit terribly hard and you can use a not super amazing weapon and still be okay. Bad rolls can still happen, but on average, you should be able to tank at least 5-10 turns, depending on your hp. This isn't that unreasonable for a heavy armor character to reach, any plate with some armor skill and a few secondary armors will get you there. Can be a bit tougher if you're trying to do it in a ring/scale, but with enough +2 boots and cloak, etc, you still can.

If you're in very light armor you probably have ranged attacks (magic). Robes + melee is fairly tough to deal with hydras. Transmuters have ice form, or if it's later in swamp, statue form, etc.

In short, I just try to get high ac, and then just hit it with whatever non-head growing attack I have until it dies. Ranged attacks are better, but if you only have a melee attack, as long as your AC is high it'll probably work. Results not guaranteed.

[njvack]

Softening hydras up with ranged attacks also helps a bunch, even if you don't have enough ranged damage to kill them before they get to melee range.

For cheidudes, there's a part of my brain telling me that Temporal Distortion will often make melee-range monsters walk away from you a bit -- is that true or is my brain broken?

[tasonir]

Softening hydras up with ranged attacks also helps a bunch, even if you don't have enough ranged damage to kill them before they get to melee range.

For cheidudes, there's a part of my brain telling me that Temporal Distortion will often make melee-range monsters walk away from you a bit -- is that true or is my brain broken?

Yeah, if you have any ranged attacks using them first is a good idea, although I have hilariously screwed myself over with this in the past (used a rod a few times, got to starving, couldn't use a god ability to save my life once the melee fight went badly).

As for temporal distortion, it's essentially correct. I usually think of it as "randomly blinking" monsters, they may end up closer to you or further away, but the best part about this ability is that it's instant. If you end up with a bad result, you can do it again. You can reroll as often as you like without the monsters getting any turns against you - within hunger/piety limits, of course. But still, using it 3-4 times back to back is perfectly fine. If you happen to be on stairs and just need to get everything out of direct contact with you, you should be able to do this in a few tries. Works best if you're already on the stairs of course, if you have to walk to it while worshipping chei, everything will catch up with you

[Sandman25]

Hydras do change the way I play melee Nagas and Chei characters, I basically must go with M&F

You could train axes and bash hydras with a mace on crosstraining alone (or pick up a few cheap levels of M&F).

With those characters I usually have to fight first hydra I meet (because I am always low on teleportation) so having inferior weapon can kill me.

[njvack]

Yeah, I dunno then. Soften 'em up on approach, use chei tricks (bend time comes early, though hydras do have good HD), have good defenses, use might/agility/rage (even with bad weapons you do a lot of damage while zerking), train ranged and/or summons... you can also do Lair later if you're playing a character who will have a really terrible time with hydras.

If you're saying "I want to use only melee on a cheidude or a naga" then you're taking a challenge conduct in the first place. But even then I really think there are other solutions than "only use M&F."

[tasonir]

If you're saying "I want to use only melee on a cheidude or a naga" then you're taking a challenge conduct in the first place.

I think you meant to say "You are following the one true path to enlightenment, the divine experience, the hallowed strategy laid out by the one true master, Tasonir."

In my defense, they had constriction at level 1 when I recommended this. Seriously, it actually worked because of constriction.

[stoneychips]

Bolt wands!
Confusion wands (plus missiles, ideally)
Mephitic cloud (or however you spell it)
Bows and crossbows
Summons, lots of summons
Enslave other mobs and send them after it
Enslave the hydra and work it to death/make it retreat the other way
Large rocks (ogres and trolls)
Run toward walls and Blink back out to the open, and shoot again (or flee)
Flaming weapons
Maces and flails
Piercing polearms
Get it between you and drakes/dragons that like to breathe clouds on everything
Lead it over a shaft

[dowan]

If you have to come up with a bunch of ways to deal with a monster because just straightforward tabbing is dangerous, then the monster is not non-threatening. Can I just press tab when I see it? If yes, trivial, if no, not trivial.

Also, just a reminder that having a single monster who forces you to swap weapons if you're wielding one of a small subset of weapons is clunky, and if the monster is so easy to deal with, as evidenced by this thread, then why have an annoying and tedious mechanic to support it?

[Dracunos]

If you have to come up with a bunch of ways to deal with a monster

Isn't that the complete opposite of what logic would suggest? If you can come up with as you say a 'bunch' of ways to deal with a monster, doesn't the more ways the monster can be taken down mean the less dangerous that monster really is?

Regardless, nobody agrees as to what's 'dangerous' or not, and the real answer is always 'it depends'. There are times and characters for which hydras, or any other monster, will be trivial, and times when they will not. Both situations have to be taken into consideration. But the fact that they are a ten speed melee-only monster (until swamp, when they may be faster) needs to be taken into consideration as well.

So the real question is whether a particular monster who is strong to slashing type weapons needs to be removed, due to it forcing slashing weapon users to use alternate tactics to fight it. And also consider that this 'alternate tactic' isn't simple 'praying and hoping you found MR for banishers at a low level, or rF for OOFs', this alternate tactic can be one of many many different alternate solutions. The only difference is it's a modification to your way of attacking that's required (and potentially even training, for a few of the many solutions), whereas most other special monsters require you to modify your defenses a bit (or find other solutions of course like running, tele, haste, etc, which are good solutions for anything).

E: Well, that would be the real question if that was what this thread was still about. :p

[genericpseudonym]

If you have to come up with a bunch of ways to deal with a monster because just straightforward tabbing is dangerous, then the monster is not non-threatening. Can I just press tab when I see it? If yes, trivial, if no, not trivial.

Also, just a reminder that having a single monster who forces you to swap weapons if you're wielding one of a small subset of weapons is clunky, and if the monster is so easy to deal with, as evidenced by this thread, then why have an annoying and tedious mechanic to support it?

Some people (like you) rank trivial vs. non-trivial based on how much effort it takes to fight, while others rank it based on how difficult the fight is, how likely it is to kill you, or how many important consumables it could cost.

[dowan]

If I run into a yak, and my defenses and offenses are reasonably decent, I can just press tab until it's dead. I don't think about swapping weapons or using consumables. That fight is trivial! If I run into a hydra, even with decent offenses and defenses, I have to think about my weapon and maybe swap it. I might need to use consumables. This fight isn't trivial!

Of course, I could swap weapons to fight the yak, I could use consumables, sure, but to do so would be to say the monster isn't trivial. So... any way that works to kill a hydra works on a yak. Any way that works on a yak does not necessarily work on a hydra. So a hydra has less ways to deal with it than a yak. The fact that you have to think of these other ways means it's more difficult. Just like an OOF has lots of ways to deal with it, the reason people come up with all these reasons is because it's a difficult monster worthy of special consideration!

And yeah, I know, hydras are speed 10 and the game only generates wide open areas and 1 monster at a time, so it's impossible to ever get hurt by a hydra, but I guess the version of crawl I play has a bug or something, because I find myself in danger from speed 10 monsters pretty often... more often in fact than any other speed of monster. I should probably look into fixing my crawl to work like some other poster's versions, because it sounds pretty sweet, I bet I could streak 500 characters in a row in that version where you never get cornered or trapped between monsters! (No, I couldn't, I'd still die all the time to stupid stuff, who am I kidding)

[stoneychips]

It still depends a lot on the character.
If you're always playing missile characters, and you're leveling those missiles early and kiting a lot, yaks (edit: yes, hydras, ha) should often feel pretty mild (as long as they don't appear adjacent to you).
If you're mainly relying on cutting weapons, of course they're going to feel obnoxious.
Then there's late game where Trolls and Ogres can laugh at them, even with claws... Unless there are ten of them or too much else happening!

[Eyesburn]

A long blades using Na or Chei character needs a plan for hydras before entering lair.

so if you are HOFi with axes (or MiFi with long blades) you don't need a plan? Or DEFE, who just ran out of mana and theres hyrda coming your way you don't need a plan?

And as I said above, if you're a Naga (or Chei, or both) going into lair with non-flaming long blades being your main damage choice, then you need to bring an alternative!

everyone needs to bring an alternative imho

I agree that it's a big threat for cheinagas.

head chopping is not big threat for cheinagas because you will not chop their heads off

[stickyfingers]

A long blades using Na or Chei character needs a plan for hydras before entering lair.

so if you are HOFi with axes (or MiFi with long blades) you don't need a plan? Or DEFE, who just ran out of mana and theres hyrda coming your way you don't need a plan?

Indeed, you don't. You can decide on the spot to retreat, an option that is very limited for nagas and Cheists.

[Eyesburn]

Indeed, you don't. You can decide on the spot to retreat, an option that is very limited for nagas and Cheists.

as Sandman wrote above retreating can go bad (like some monster dude cut your retreating path and hydra close the gap on you )

about retreating with nagas KoboldLord said:

I routinely make a fighting retreat with a vanilla naga. It works just fine. Your premise that you can't retreat with a vanilla naga is plain wrong. It's harder to retreat, and it costs resources like consumables or hit points to get away, but it can and frequently should be done.

also beside to consumables and hit points you should have your god's abilities available

[genericpseudonym]

A long blades using Na or Chei character needs a plan for hydras before entering lair.

so if you are HOFi with axes (or MiFi with long blades) you don't need a plan? Or DEFE, who just ran out of mana and theres hyrda coming your way you don't need a plan?

And as I said above, if you're a Naga (or Chei, or both) going into lair with non-flaming long blades being your main damage choice, then you need to bring an alternative!

everyone needs to bring an alternative imho

I agree that it's a big threat for cheinagas.

head chopping is not big threat for cheinagas because you will not chop their heads off

Head chopping is a threat for cheinagas because it forces them to have a plan to deal with it, not because it forces them to actually hit the hydra with their sword.

Head chopping is much less of a threat for not-cheinagas because if they don't have a plan to deal with it they can almost certainly walk away from hydras. Sometimes this will not be the case and they will need to burn consumables or something, but it's much less of a risk than it is for slow characters.

[Eyesburn]

if Im playing HOGl with axes I have plan (plan which is not just walking away) same as when Im playing cheinaga;
Im playing cheinagas and I must say that hydraes are not such big threat as people on this thread claim to be

[genericpseudonym]

if Im playing HOGl with axes I have plan (plan which is not just walking away) same as when Im playing cheinaga;
Im playing cheinagas and I must say that hydraes are not such big threat as people on this thread claim to be

You have a plan, but even a bad player who does not have a plan can survive if they follow the one-size-fits-all solution of "just walk away".

A bad player who does not have a plan as a naga cannot just walk away and will be in much more trouble.

[njvack]

A bad player who does not have a plan as a naga cannot just walk away and will be in much more trouble.

Well, um... yeah. Someone who is playing badly and has chosen a slow character is going to have all kinds of problems. Hydras will be a concern but so will basically every threatening monster.

On the upside, playing with slow characters is a reasonable way to get better at the game, by forcing you to figure out plans for various situations. Those same plans usually work — only better — with speed 10 characters.

[dowan]

I'll second that. When I first started playing crawl, I played a lot of Centaurs, and I stayed pretty bad at the game, and was hopeless on a normal speed character. Then I played a bunch of nagas. I mean, I splatted a lot of nagas. However, when I went back to speed 10 characters after playing a bunch of nagas I really realized how helpful it is being able to just walk away from most bad situations.