Bloax wrote:Greyr wrote:Im curious why Qaz is behind Fedhas in the Pan/Hell/Tomb Tier. He may not be great in extended, but at least he doesn't need corpses to do anything.
Not looking for a hugely detailed analysis here, obviously tiers are very hard to structure within Crawl since everything is so circumstantial.
Probably the most useful thing Qaz offers is smiting hellions/tormentors dead, but in exchange he's also the god that makes a fuckton of noise on your position to bring everything and their grandmother to you.
Which is slightly impractical in extended.
And yes, this is a somewhat silly format to place gods in but whatever.
Sar wrote:Bloax wrote:He's much better for early melee than for early conjuration guys if only because the latter benefit a lot more from being able to run away.
would you rather play a HOSu of Chei or a HOFi of Chei
HOFi, because I'm guaranteed to actually have a usable weapon. (oh and a potion of might also helps)
But really, Chei is S-tier for shit like Mi/Gr/VS-Fi/Mo because of how ridiculously strong you will be pre-lair and how easily said combos kill the early game.
I think you are vastly underestimating disaster area at 27 invo. Let's say you played really poorly in extended: you have your back to a wall and there are 2 tormentors and 3 brimstone fiends on your screen at various ranges and 2 nequoexec and 1 cacodemon. One disaster area at 27 invo will kill everyone of them almost everytime since your back is to the wall.
In point of fact I found disaster area to but MUCH MUCH more useful than upheaval in extended, although I did use it for exactly what you mention.
Additionally although finesse is probably better against, for example, Cerebov if you restrict LOS right disaster area will still do large chunks of completely unavoidable to damage to him and be very close to finesse.
You can clear an entire Zig from 1 to 27 with just disaster area. Gods like dith or oka can't do anything similar really.
In hell the noise is not that big a deal, you get stuff summoned on you frequently and are basically diving anyway. Its not really bad in Pandemonium either, although super high stealth is helpful in Pand. The noise is nowhere near as bad as the slow on chei. I found on comparing my OpFi fifteen rune staute form Hepl run and my latest DsFi of Qaz run that I got roughly similar encounters in Pand. If you cast glaciate/fore storm even once in the level and you don't have massive stealth then there is almost no functional difference between Qaz and not-Qaz in Pand. You will still run into mobs of demonspawn etc. Now on my current OpIE of Chei who has maxed out stealth yes I can run through pand with a large number of things unware if I keep meleeing. But all in all when you watch what the typical Vehumet guy is doing in hell and Pand there is no difference between them and qaz really, in fact the vehumet nuker pulls significantly more things I think. Qaz is 16 noise versus that nukers 25. In pand my experience is you get realatively normal amount of things attacking you. Roughly the same as someone with low stealth (+ or ++). And I did like 40 pand level on that 15 rune. Basically sustained melee does the same thing as Qaz anyway and a large number of things wander or just flat out spawn in pand anyway.