Keeping track of Permanent Allies

[mumra]

In my current game I was experimenting with Twisted Resurrection for the first time. It's a very cool spell, and I ended up with at one point 9 or 10 greater horrible things that helped me clear out a large chunk of the early game right up to Swamp:5, where they started getting mangled quite quickly by all the hydras!

What I found quite tricky was not collecting the corpses (for which I found Apportation really useful; you can just mash it until everything in sight is collection on your tile). What was really difficult was just getting all my pets to travel with me from one level to another. You can use Recall, but they don't always stand on the right adjacent tiles to traverse the stairs with you, made even harder due to my other skeletons and zombies that were all over the place; and even once you've maneuvered them into the right place they sometimes they don't all travel and it's easy to miss (only occasionally; but I think I lost one or two this way). Plus that with the number I had, you don't always have 8 free tiles adjacent to the stairs. I had to go up with some of them, then run away from the stairs a few tiles, then run back and go down for the others. It made it especially annoying, say, travelling from Lair:8 back up to the dungeon, having to perform this trick on each and every level instead of just autotravelling. It seems somewhat like a behavioural limitation; at least, the current system doesn't prevent having a whole army of the things, it just encourages scummy and repetitive play to keep them all together.

So two questions really:

1. Is there a way that I'm missing to find out where existing permanent allies might be scattered around the various levels? I've stopped using Twisted Resurrection now mainly because of this limitation, and I felt I could just spend the spell slots on better damage spells for myself and chunk everything for sublimation. But I'm sure I still have a few horrible things scattered around that just got left behind by accident, and it'd be nice to go back and get them!

2. Is there any consideration to address this situation? I'm thinking something along the lines of allowing inter-level capable summons to follow you up the stairs regardless of whether they were actually standing next to you. Or perhaps Recall could just work inter-level for allies that are allowed to leave their level. Obviously limitations should perhaps be put on this because it'd be quite powerful. Maybe Twisted Resurrection could simply stop working (or have reduced chance) depending on the total horrible things you already have. Maybe Recall could limit the number of allies it will port (always port those furthest away?) The current mechanism seems somewhat flawed in that it requires tedious micromanagement even for just 1 ally, whilst not actually limiting the ability to travel with a whole army of the things if you really wanted (assuming you could find enough corpses!)

[galehar]

For stairs, learning dig can help. I'll leave this thread in advice for a while in case someone has some other hints with how to deal with the current system, but this is probably going to move to design discussion pretty soon.

We are aware of the problem and various solutions have been discussed on the wiki. In my opinion, the best solution is to make autoexplore and autotravel simply wait for your allies to catch up with you, loosen up the rules for allies following you through stairs and finally cap the number of allies. The cap should be between 12 and 18 and it can depend on allies. For Beoghites, I think its good to have 18 orcs in the beginning, and lower that to 12 when you have a bunch of warriors and knights.
If all of this is done properly, we can just dump recall and replace it by a telepathy spell (or god ability, just like recall). It locates all allies on the level and allow you to communicate with them. You can order them to follow you, and they'll be able to pathfind across the level to you. It also tells you the location of off-level allies.

[mumra]

This all sounds eminently sensible. I wanted Dig for that purpose but I'd only found it in one shop book at that point and didn't want to burn $900 for just one spell when I knew it'd turn up sooner or later anyway. Actually now I have a book but still one spell slot short.

The only thing about removing Recall is that it's useful for creating an instant meat shield, even just from zombies and skeletons you might have on the level. Another use is in Orc or other disconnected levels when you want to pull allies from one bubble to another, and also for getting your allies across lava/water. So it definitely has a few uses beyond stair management; if it's considered too powerful then perhaps make it only recall 2 or 3 allies at a time?

[galehar]

The only thing about removing Recall is that it's useful for creating an instant meat shield, even just from zombies and skeletons you might have on the level.

This is actually what I dislike the most about recall. Or getting to melee range, recalling and have the enemy instantly surrounded. It would be much more immersive if you could conveniently travel with your allies at your side, and when spotting an enemy, ordering them to attack and charge along them. It doesn't work well in corridors, but that's exactly the downside of ally gameplay, and any feature which pushes you in the open is good.

Another use is in Orc or other disconnected levels when you want to pull allies from one bubble to another,

If they keep close when you travel and explore, then this isn't needed.

and also for getting your allies across lava/water.

Well, this is perfectly acceptable, some places you have to go alone. But we have to make sure that you can always find some way of going to the next level with your allies. Aren't there a few special levels with upstairs on one side and downstairs on the other side of some lake or lava river? Don't want your army to get stuck on D:14 because D:15 is one of those level.

[mumra]

The only thing about removing Recall is that it's useful for creating an instant meat shield, even just from zombies and skeletons you might have on the level.

This is actually what I dislike the most about recall. Or getting to melee range, recalling and have the enemy instantly surrounded. It would be much more immersive if you could conveniently travel with your allies at your side, and when spotting an enemy, ordering them to attack and charge along them. It doesn't work well in corridors, but that's exactly the downside of ally gameplay, and any feature which pushes you in the open is good.

That's fair enough, my horrible things were quite overpowered as it was, basically cleared the first half of the game for me once I had a couple of them!

Another use is in Orc or other disconnected levels when you want to pull allies from one bubble to another,

If they keep close when you travel and explore, then this isn't needed.

With this I was more thinking about skeletons and zombies that can't travel stairs with you.

and also for getting your allies across lava/water.

Well, this is perfectly acceptable, some places you have to go alone. But we have to make sure that you can always find some way of going to the next level with your allies. Aren't there a few special levels with upstairs on one side and downstairs on the other side of some lake or lava river? Don't want your army to get stuck on D:14 because D:15 is one of those level.

I specifically remember getting on Elf:1 where the entry had deep water blocking the entire level! Not sure how you'd get around those situations without Recall.

[FlyingPants]

meh. I tried doing that twisted resurrection stuff but it's way too tedious to cart around 4-5 at a time.

What should be done is that, unless you tell the minion to wait. It should eventually follow you down a stairway behind you after you move off the stairway, remove the micromanagement and tediousness involved in the shepherding of minions around. You already get punished a lot by not getting the XP anyways.

[mumra]

What should be done is that, unless you tell the minion to wait. It should eventually follow you down a stairway behind you after you move off the stairway, remove the micromanagement and tediousness involved in the shepherding of minions around. You already get punished a lot by not getting the XP anyways.

Considering they cleared several branches of the game while I stood back and did nothing, I wouldn't exactly call it punishment, and I still got plenty of XP. Doing fine without them now in Vaults and Crypt. But yeah I think having them follow you up the stairs after an appropriate number of turns for how far behind they were would seem the most naturally thing.

[galehar]

I specifically remember getting on Elf:1 where the entry had deep water blocking the entire level! Not sure how you'd get around those situations without Recall.

Let's see:

• Do nothing, this part can't be done with allies. Perfectly fine up to a couple of levels, not acceptable in D, a bit extreme in the case of an entire branch. On the other hand, you rarely bring allies for doing swamp and shoals.
• Remove those vaults or add bridges.
• Give some other tool to the player, like creating bridges or mass levitation spell/abilities. I actually hate those 2 examples but couldn't find anything better.

What should be done is that, unless you tell the minion to wait. It should eventually follow you down a stairway behind you after you move off the stairway

I talked about loosening the rules for stairs following, I don't think we should remove them completely. Sometimes, things go wrong and you have to choose between saving your skin and leaving your friends to die or risk your life and try to save them. If you can escape upstairs and wait a few turns for all your allies to join you, no matter how bad the situation was downstairs, that's cheap.
A simple rule would be to allow allies to follow you as long as they are within a certain radius; and there is no enemy in sight.

[mumra]

I specifically remember getting on Elf:1 where the entry had deep water blocking the entire level! Not sure how you'd get around those situations without Recall.

Let's see:

• Do nothing, this part can't be done with allies. Perfectly fine up to a couple of levels, not acceptable in D, a bit extreme in the case of an entire branch. On the other hand, you rarely bring allies for doing swamp and shoals.
• Remove those vaults or add bridges.
• Give some other tool to the player, like creating bridges or mass levitation spell/abilities. I actually hate those 2 examples but couldn't find anything better.

It's the first time I played any significant chunk of the game with allies, so I hadn't realised what a bad idea it was taking them to Swamp. They all died there of course Still, they helped out quite a lot, and I didn't really need them any more after that.

I quite like the idea of bridge building, there are plenty of spells that destroy the dungeon, but none that let you create stuff. Would be a nice way for an Earth caster to get around some places better without Air spells. A bit safer than levitation since it's not going to disappear (although I suppose you could make the bridge temporary for added danger), on the other hand not it's not as flexible since you have to build a bridge anywhere you want to go. Still, it's maybe a bit gimmicky.

[RFHolloway]

A simple rule would be to allow allies to follow you as long as they are within a certain radius; and there is no enemy in sight.

An alternative would be as long as they are next to someone going up/down stairs they go up/downstairs, (and no enemies in sight). Of course you might want to think about whether this should be extended to hostiles as well - it would remove the benefit of stairdancing when mobbed effectively cutting the group in two.

[eharper256]

I quite like the idea of bridge building, there are plenty of spells that destroy the dungeon, but none that let you create stuff. Would be a nice way for an Earth caster to get around some places better without Air spells. A bit safer than levitation since it's not going to disappear (although I suppose you could make the bridge temporary for added danger), on the other hand not it's not as flexible since you have to build a bridge anywhere you want to go. Still, it's maybe a bit gimmicky.

^ THIS ^
A bunch of Populous type spells (anyone remember that classic game?) like Raise Land and Create Wall would be awesome. (I know entomb was removed as a spell for being hax, but I think creating single wall tiles one at a time should be ok). Similarly, might be a Fire Utility to be able to melt walls/floors into slag or even lava, as an alternative to Dig.

[JeffQyzt]

entomb was removed as a spell for being hax, but I think creating single wall tiles one at a time should be ok

Corridor + 2 single tile wall-create spells = entombment. For many purposes, you wouldn't even need to close off the open end of the corridor (and save yourself the trouble of teleporting out.)

[XuaXua]

If the wall was temporary ala Conjure Flame, or made of mud and able to be destroyed over time, then that could work. Would be like growing bushes or something.

[absolutego]

Corridor + 2 single tile wall-create spells = entombment. For many purposes, you wouldn't even need to close off the open end of the corridor (and save yourself the trouble of teleporting out.)

there's also passwall.

If the wall was temporary ala Conjure Flame, or made of mud and able to be destroyed over time, then that could work. Would be like growing bushes or something.

or you could just trap a single foe for a few turns. there are a couple spell proposals in the dev wiki (tmut/earth, hex/earth, or tloc, according to flavour), which sound quite good, specially if they're irresistible yet don't affect everyone (think flying/incorporeal enemies).

[mumra]

I quite like the idea of bridge building, there are plenty of spells that destroy the dungeon, but none that let you create stuff. Would be a nice way for an Earth caster to get around some places better without Air spells. A bit safer than levitation since it's not going to disappear (although I suppose you could make the bridge temporary for added danger), on the other hand not it's not as flexible since you have to build a bridge anywhere you want to go. Still, it's maybe a bit gimmicky.

^ THIS ^
A bunch of Populous type spells (anyone remember that classic game?) like Raise Land and Create Wall would be awesome. (I know entomb was removed as a spell for being hax, but I think creating single wall tiles one at a time should be ok). Similarly, might be a Fire Utility to be able to melt walls/floors into slag or even lava, as an alternative to Dig.

Turning floor into lava could be an interesting utility Fire spell to give the school some non-direct-destruction ability, although it'd need a way to stop you just insta-killing monsters by turning the floor beneath them into lava I'd avoid having it affect walls because that's just replicating the funciton of too many other wall-destroying spells.

Although, what about a really high-level fire spell that can actually melt metal walls?

If the wall was temporary ala Conjure Flame, or made of mud and able to be destroyed over time, then that could work. Would be like growing bushes or something.

I saw an idea I really liked somewhere on these forums for an Ice Wall, which is temporary because it melts and can be smashed, and anything with fire attacks can get through easily.

[RFHolloway]

A bunch of Populous type spells (anyone remember that classic game?) like Raise Land and Create Wall would be awesome. (I know entomb was removed as a spell for being hax, but I think creating single wall tiles one at a time should be ok). Similarly, might be a Fire Utility to be able to melt walls/floors into slag or even lava, as an alternative to Dig.

Oh yes I remember populous - Populous II was better - probably available on GOG for aboout a fiver for all you young ones who want another game which provides gameplay over graphics.

You could have a spell which tranforms (metal) walls to magma. that may provide some interesting tactical options. I like the ice wall that will melt after some turns, or after receiving fire damage. Dont like the build wall spell, too easy to pillar dance down a long corridor and seal off anything inside.