What race is good with statue form?

[nordetsa]

I guess most race is if you go melee way, but I want to know some easy combo that lets me survive till I actually get statue form online. In my first win as OP I was meleeing things and got the book of Earth. Thinking I already had a few skills in earth/transmutation skills (had learned stoneskin), I thought I could go for statue form.

And the result was absolutely amazing, with the character getting 15-rune and fighting antaeus and 2 ice fiends at once (okay, maybe that was stupid but I won anyway).

Now I want to see the might of statue form again, maybe with a different race (and I keep getting melee OPs splatted anyway, even after my win...)

Which race would be good? I'm thinking of Demonspawn/Draconian/Naga/Vine Stalker. I tried Deep Dwarf with UC, but the combo seemed really abysmal in terms of damage, at least in the early game.

[onget]

1. play you in the most good character
2. go abyss / pan
3. train earth / transmutation
4. cast statue form

[nordetsa]

Well I was hoping I could cast statue form *before* I go to abyss or Pan actually...

[onget]

SE(Since had been stupid deleted, you will need to create a folk ...), Mf, VS is a decent choice.
As a strange choice, Tr,Op.

[nago]

In a 3 rune game probably it may be worthy only for Op and Fe, and only sometime. You could probably also build a Og or some other race like DE, Dr or whatever using earth magic and having it as main form of defence - I've spectated and seen some log victory like that and they kinda worked so it may be worth, but I can't estimate that very well.
In a 15 runes game also Tr could be a valid race.
For all others it's most probably shit in most circumstances.

edit: in before chei-naga-statue form of infinite-aut moving speed of whatever

[radinms]

The best transmutation for transmuter at extended game is obviously statue form.
But even at normal 3runes game, statue form is a great buff for transmuter.
crazy dmg, crazy defense, very great.

So any race is ok at statue form if you can fight at UC.

[WingedEspeon]

NaTm->statue form can work well because the early transmutations like spider form override you slow movement and you get a large HP pool. Later on, statue form sets your movment delay to 1.5, not mutiplys it by 1.5, so you get the same movement delay as a statue form felid. Dr is good because you meld the unusable body slot and have high HP. Og/Tr can work will if you can offset their terrible magic ability. Mf in good so you can survive the transmuter/monk early game. Dg works too. Vp could work, but your highly dependent of finding food so you probably could do extended without Jivia.

[njvack]

Statue troll of Chei felt pretty strong to me. People made fun of me for thinking so, though. Remember that statue form slows everything you do, not just movement.

[tabstorm]

Felid
Octopode
Draconian
Ogre
Troll

Basically the races that can't wear body armor or giant races. For other characters it is okay but a regular body armor with blade hands is probably more effective until torment becomes common.

[radinms]

I prefer statue form over blade hands at Mf, because they have a poor armour aptitude,
so Stone skin+ Statue Form is more defense.
(But particular AC boost spell+ transmutation combination is no more in trunk?)

[tabstorm]

It still works, the boost to stoneskin AC when used in conjunction with statue form just got removed for being too good apparently.

[Berder]

That's really too bad...

[nago]

Fighting 1
Unarmed Combat 1
Dodging 3
Transmutation 3
Poison 1
Ice Magic 1


And maybe also Exp 0, charms +1, Invo +1, Evo +1, Spellcasting -1 should be listed as well.

Saying Mf shoud prefer shitty (or at best eventually not bad) statue form over bh because a single apt is -3 while all the others are over the roof is an extremely bad advice at best. Heck, it could be considered a bad one even for a race with flat apt and eventually a -3 in armour.

[Berder]

Saying Mf shoud prefer shitty (or at best eventually not bad) statue form

If it was so shitty why did they have to nerf it, huh? Tell me!

[duvessa]

Felid
Octopode
Draconian
Ogre
Troll

This is the correct list except for draconian, getting rid of your scales ac isn't really a great deal (similar to why statue form is actually bad on nagas).

[tabstorm]

Draconian AC is too low for my tastes so I like to use statue on them, but it is a matter of opinion. Too bad about the stoneskin bonus being removed though.

[radinms]

But statue form+red draconian remains fire resistance.

[Eyesburn]

I use statue form on all my transmuters

MfTm^Chei (15 runes)

  Code:

Action                   |  1- 3 |  4- 6 |  7- 9 | 10-12 | 13-15 | 16-18 | 19-21 | 22-24 | 25-27 || total
-------------------------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------++-------
       Blade Hands       |       |       |    29 |    35 |    81 |    29 |    12 |     2 |    47 ||   235
       Statue Form       |       |       |       |     3 |    16 |    55 |    69 |    49 |   324 ||   516

CeTm^Chei (15 runes)

  Code:

Action                   |  1- 3 |  4- 6 |  7- 9 | 10-12 | 13-15 | 16-18 | 19-21 | 22-24 | 25-27 || total
-------------------------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------++-------
       Blade Hands       |       |       |       |    12 |    84 |    82 |    83 |    87 |   144 ||   492
       Statue Form       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |       |   329 ||   329

[dowan]

I recently won a 15 rune statue form troll (started as TrSu because I wanted to win a Su, but I did not play it as a Su). A more sane option would be to start as an EE.

Basically, I had earth magic and transmutations being trained all game, and it was castable without wizardry or brilliance after depths. Aside from that, I was training dodging, fighting, UC, and throwing. If you're already training earth, you could probably not train throwing, but it's nice to have large rocks to throw.

I did the same basic thing with a DsGl, but it came online a bit earlier since my apts weren't so bad.

So, really any race is good with statue form, but of course you want to survive long enough to actually cast it.

[gammafunk]

I feel like only Fe or Op should ever use a transmutation past bladehands, and given a choice I'd always prefer dragon form over statue form. In practice you may not find dragon form + cold resistance on jewellery + at least one of phase shift or ozo's armour before you find statue form + at least one of phase shift or stoneskin, and you go with the first viable advanced form setup you find. Stoneskin being in the book of transfigurations along with statue form also means it's a bit more common to find the two at the same time. Both forms are viable enough on their own without the buff spells when you first start wanting to use them as Op/Fe, but I'd not want to use either later on if I don't have access to any spell that improves their defenses.

Tr or Og using an advanced form seems really silly to me aside from just something to do for the sake of it. For extended, torment resistance isn't at all a requirement, certainly not for Tr or Og.

[tasonir]

Sure, statue form isn't a requirement for the large races, but it's an improvement. Freezing cloud isn't a requirement either, but it's an awesome spell. Getting statue form on a troll is also very much worth the investment (it's slightly better for troll since trolls will be using unarmed and can keep their claws, but it's also pretty decent for Og). Most of the obvious races have been covered, but what the hell, here's a list:

Best:
Octopode, felid

Amazing:
Troll, vine stalker, merfolk.

Unusual but interesting cases:

Tengu - even though their aptitudes for trans/earth are terrible. Kobolds, halflings, and spriggans: all of those are races which have terrible hp and would benefit from +30% hp (also a main reason for vine stalkers). Small races also have terrible melee weapon choices, so unarmed is great for them, although this is counteracted by terrible UC aptitude (halfing and spriggan -2, kobold is 0 though). Tengu are natural unarmed fighters (+1, aux attacks), but getting statue form itself is a larger investment than normal.

Demonspawn might be in this category if they get the right mutations (claws especially, but other aux mutations that make you lose boots makes statue form better too).

average:
All the other standard races. Note that while this is just 'average' I consider the average case to 'awesome time to go statue form' and this is not in anyway meant to discourage human, demigod, formicid, or demonspawn statue form characters. They're great. Play them

Below average:

Naga, Centaur (melding bardings sucks, losing naga scales), Vampire (unless you have a plan for always being fed). Of course the races that can't use it: gargoyles, mummies, ghouls. It can still be used on Nagas/Centaurs but the AC just isn't really there - it can boost your damage, but so does blade hands, so unless you really, really can't handle a torment, there isn't much point. That said I've still done it because why not


So really the big omission from the thread so far was vine stalkers. Seriously, try it out. -30% hp is their only weakness, and yes, you still bite in statue form. Obviously the race is very powerful to begin with so you certainly don't *need* the extra hp, but once you have it, my god

[radinms]

IMO Vampire should go statue form+UC for extended game because bloodless vampire is too terrible weak even at makhleb.
I always think DD is strong after playing bloodless vampire.

and actually VS is average HP race because of their spirit guardian and mp-drain bite attacks.
I always think VS should be nerfed because they are terrible strong.

[Sar]

Well DD is strong...

[gammafunk]

Statue form isn't an improvement for either Tr or Og though. Tr can use claws 3 with a shield and 0 transmutations to breeze through any number of runes, and Og can get the AC it needs from dragon armour quite easily. EV is a problem for Ogres without the shield, but by the end of even a 3-rune game they'll have solved that problem with good dex, high dodging, and possible use of phase shift. Freezing cloud is a funny comparison since using that spell it doesn't make all your subsequent actions take 50% longer.

[duvessa]

statue form Og is overrated (+50% damage combined with +50% delay is...+0% damage overall, so you are just a bit better against ac and will sometimes stop one more monster action due to the way delay works, woohoo) but it's pretty good for tr really, unless you also think spider/ice/hydra form are bad for tr

[Sar]

it's probably pretty good if you want to play UC Og for some reason

maybe you are inspired by the OgTm guide but the "flood everything with snakes" tactic doesn't quite work past Elf:3

[duvessa]

it was ok back when og wasn't absurdly shoehorned into gc/gsc (and statue form got a bigger bonus from str), yes

[dowan]

Statue form isn't an improvement for either Tr or Og though. Tr can use claws 3 with a shield and 0 transmutations to breeze through any number of runes, and Og can get the AC it needs from dragon armour quite easily. EV is a problem for Ogres without the shield, but by the end of even a 3-rune game they'll have solved that problem with good dex, high dodging, and possible use of phase shift. Freezing cloud is a funny comparison since using that spell it doesn't make all your subsequent actions take 50% longer.

I'm sorry, but having cleared zot5 with a statue form troll, and with a more regular troll, it wasn't even close. The statue form troll cast statue form and pressed tab, the regular troll had to do a lot more recovering. The regular troll obviously had higher skills since he didn't have to spend the XP on getting stat form, but the statue form troll had a much easier time. Then in extended being able to shrug off torment, and to a lesser extent rot, was a gamechanger. A statue troll can mindlessly tab through extended for the most part, which a non statue form troll with 27 in all skills still cannot do.

I think people are underestimating the effect of +50% damage. You're essentially ignoring 1/3 of the opponent's ac, which is significant against high AC opponents.

In my experience with statue form, it turns any build into a good one. And believe me, a TrSu transitioning into a statue form unarmed troll is a pretty bad build, yet once stat form was castable he was never close to being in danger again. With statue form and TSO in extended it's basically auto-win time.

Of course, the true drawback to statue form is that your character is significantly weaker than it would otherwise be during the period where you're training earth, tmut, and spellcasting to get statue form castable. It's really not a great idea for most characters for just a 3 rune game, although at least you'll get some benefit from stoneskin and earth spells along the way.

[gammafunk]

Zot:5 is one level of the game, and not a very difficult one at that, so this hardly matters. I've cleared Z:5 twice as a Tr with a UC+large shield, once fighting out a lung and once with orb ninja, and both times the char was very strong (certainly not in need of 'excessive' resting). Anyhow a Tr with UC+large shield already steamrolls through the game, and you really don't need the investment in statue form at all. That XP investment for statue form without using a shield might not be too bad compared to training a shield, but aside from maybe getting it eventually for some rTorment in extended, I doubt I'd ever bother with statue on a Tr.

[tasonir]

I don't think anyone is arguing that trolls are a weak race. I don't think anyone's claimed that they can't clear zot:5 without statue form. Of course they can. It's just easier with statue form. Also, there's no reason why you should give up a shield to learn statue form, you can easily do both. It'd be better to cut out armor training to learn statue form, or if you're really smart, you just cut the final few levels from dodging/fighting/UC.

The downside to learning statue form is the period of time you start investing in trans/earth until the time you can comfortably use the spell. And on a troll especially that time period is significant, but it does end. Use whatever wizardry/brilliance tricks you can to try to shorten it as much as possible.

I would likely have already trained a shield and be using it continuously before I start learning statue form. Statue form isn't something you should try to rush early on a troll (I'm more tempted to do that on an octopode, but for all races you need to be reasonably secure before you divert all your exp).

[gammafunk]

I don't think I accused anyone of saying Tr is weak, so I don't know why you're bringing that up, but yes I did say that making Zot:5 'easier' is not a good reason for justifying having a weaker char at the relatively more difficult earlier areas of the game. In general getting statue form will compromise your defenses somewhat in more difficult portions of the earlier game, and hence is just not an investment you need to make.

[mps]

A straightforward UC troll w/ shield has a very strong 3 rune endgame. Good dragon armor + shield is v solid in z:5. Plays like any good melee char. Statue form would just mean going through extra branches for xp you don't need to win.

[tasonir]

dunno, in this game: http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/tasonir/mor ... 163223.txt I cast statue form 3 times in 19-21 section of the action table, and in this game: http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/tasonir/mor ... 064252.txt it started at 8 times in the 22-24 section. That's before vaults:5 for the first, and roughly at the time of vaults:5 for the second; and always before zot. I haven't really run much in the way of "extra branches", that's just right around depths time for the first, and after depths/elf for the second. I certainly didn't do slime/abyss/pan/hell/tomb. If you want to fault me for running elf I suppose that's fine, but I consider it normal.

Granted both cases are with Chei for +15 int, but I mean, come on, it's chei, play it. I did 15 rune both but that's just because runes are awesome.

Anyone remember where that skill cost calculator is? The second troll overtrained earth/trans for additional spell power, but the first one didn't and had 12.9 trans and 14.9 earth, which is a good baseline for getting statue form. Assume a non-statue form troll will have unarmed/fighting at 27: how much less unarmed/fighting do you have to train to get trans/earth to 13/15? I suppose we should also include the 11 spellcasting. I'm assuming you could get all three of those skills and unarmed/fighting would still be around 24-25.

[dowan]

I don't think I accused anyone of saying Tr is weak, so I don't know why you're bringing that up, but yes I did say that making Zot:5 'easier' is not a good reason for justifying having a weaker char at the relatively more difficult earlier areas of the game. In general getting statue form will compromise your defenses somewhat in more difficult portions of the earlier game, and hence is just not an investment you need to make.

I completely agree, statue form is totally impractical for a 3 rune game. But what I was saying is that having statue form makes you very powerful. Building toward getting statue form makes you weaker than you would be. In a 3 rune game, you spend a lot more time in the weak phase of building toward statue form, and very little time in the powerful phase of having statue form. It really makes a lot more sense for extended.

What I disagree with is the notion that one you have castable statue form, you're only breaking even, due to +50% damage and -33% speed. In my experience, statue form characters have felt vastly more powerful than non-statue form characters, once they actually have statue form.
I also strongly disagree that zot 5 is not a very difficult level. However, zot 5 is also the final level, so naturally people are going to play much more carefully there than they would in most of the game, and what kills most people is not playing carefully enough.

[tasonir]

I don't think I accused anyone of saying Tr is weak, so I don't know why you're bringing that up

Anyhow a Tr with UC+large shield already steamrolls through the game, and you really don't need the investment in statue form at all.

The second quote is the part that I thought sounded like you're saying "Troll is already strong, so don't make it stronger". Obviously, what you're really objecting to is period where you're weaker in the middle as you try to learn statue form, which I've already agreed with:

The downside to learning statue form is the period of time you start investing in trans/earth until the time you can comfortably use the spell. And on a troll especially that time period is significant, but it does end. Use whatever wizardry/brilliance tricks you can to try to shorten it as much as possible.

So really we're getting dangerously close to yelling at each other over something we agree on The general flow of the game is fairly well known, I think, and people just weigh various trade offs somewhat differently. I don't mind being a bit weaker in the middle for the power in the end game; I find it reasonably easy to get statue form going especially because I'm with Chei. If you'd rather have a more linear progression, go for it. I'm well aware of the concept of "win more" decisions in games, but I'm still somewhat prone to making them for fun's sake

you have castable statue form, you're only breaking even, due to +50% damage and -33% speed.

One thing to note is that tradeoff applies to weapons - UC characters typically get more than 50% damage, depending on their strength. Of course trolls do especially well here.