Doing extended without necromutation

[Lasty]

Good job, Sherlock. You found the game that I described in detail above. If I tell you that you're wearing a shirt, will you post a picture of it and tell me that you discovered that you're wearing a shirt?

Like other posters who believe that data, no matter how poorly chosen or flawed, trumps reason, you managed to find a single example in a pool of four cases and then ignore all context in order to allow that example to appear to support your point.

I actually forgot another piece of unusual context that prompted me to learn Necromutation during the pickup of the 15 rune in my game: I was worshipping Qazlal, the loud god, in Tomb, where remaining silent is particularly important, meaning that I was forced to deal with each Tomb floor's entire population of mummies at once.

I don't actually enjoy 15 rune games, which is why I only have 4 of them online -- I only do them for tournaments. I got my fill of 15-runers while I was still playing offline.

I know that I can be killed more often if I don't use Necromutation and it does not depend on playing style, it is matter of fact.

No, it's a matter of opinion. You're not the first person to confuse opinion and fact, but it is startling how often it happens.

[Sandman25]

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[Sandman25]

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[Berder]

I think we're all in agreement that there are some characters, such as deep elves, necromancers, and MfAs^qazlal, that gain some worthwhile advantage from having necromutation in extended. I also think we all agree that there are some characters for whom necromutation is too expensive or incompatible with their god.

[Sandman25]

I've just checked my MfAs game, it is really easy to see how useful Necromutation can be.

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[tasonir]

Extended with necromutation is so easy that I won my very first 15 rune game as a naga monk of cheibriados with 0 damaging spells. I punched everything in extended and laughed all the way to the surface. Nerf necromutation now. Necromutation: So powerful a newbie can do it. Necromutation: Even makes up for Cheibriados. Necromutation: What is dead can never die.

http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/0.10/Ta ... 202132.txt

Also if you're any melee character, but especially unarmed, statue form should be mentioned for basically stopping torment without needing to go all the way to necromutation, but hey.

These days I mostly only bother if I'm going to do a zig, or I just forget to get it and die on zig:26.

[njvack]

7) Get Controlled Blink, you can land into very bad places in Pan so 1-2 Controlled Blinks and then running away can be the optimal way of "fighting" there.

Don't forget that cblink is outrageously powerful offensively, too; it's almost a portable corner:

* Find dangerous monster (let's say Tormentor) far away from corners
* Lure it away until it's in a thoroughly explored area
* Cblink near or next to it
* Apply damage vigorously

Often, being in melee range of very late-game monsters* is a good idea, because they may decide to melee you instead of doing worse things, and their summons can't block LoF.

* Yes, it'll depend a lot on the monster and your character and the surrounding terrain.

[Sandman25]

Don't forget that cblink is outrageously powerful offensively, too; it's almost a portable corner:

* Find dangerous monster (let's say Tormentor) far away from corners
* Lure it away until it's in a thoroughly explored area
* Cblink near or next to it
* Apply damage vigorously

Often, being in melee range of very late-game monsters* is a good idea, because they may decide to melee you instead of doing worse things, and their summons can't block LoF.

* Yes, it'll depend a lot on the monster and your character and the surrounding terrain.

Luring Tormentor is a bad idea, it has speed 12. When Tormentor is the only monster is LoS I CBlink adjacent to it immediately. If some scary monsters are in LoS after the blink, I CBlink back and can read tele.

[Lasty]

You said that you used Necromutation in only one game, why didn't you say that you used Necromutation in all your games? This is what I find funny. Or did you lose all characters without Necromutation in extended?

Is lying fun for you? Or do you have a disease where you cannot consider anything in context? I obviously don't use Necromutation in all my games; you yourself noted it earlier in this thread. I already explained quite clearly that I used it once online in an uncommon situation in order to make things more convenient. I also clearly acknowledged previously that sometimes Necromutation can make things more convenient.

If it helps you to understand how stupid a lie is to have it aimed at you, consider this: your MfAs game with 15 runes and no Necromutation proves that in 100% of such games you don't learn Necromutation. Therefore I'm right and you're wrong.

I know that I can be killed more often if I don't use Necromutation

Seriously, you should stop trying make me (or other players who like Necromutation) look like a bad player: all those useless words about "retreat around corner, learn positioning etc.". If you have little experience with Necromutation or extended, it is ok, I can understand why you don't like the spell. I even suspect you don't like extended because it is really hard without Necromutation/TSO, I don't like it either, it is a challenge even with them.

How is taking you at your word that you believe you'll die without Necromutation in any way me calling you a bad player? If dying without Necromutation makes you a bad player, then you called you a bad player. If dying without Necromutation doesn't make you a bad player, then what on earth are you even talking about?

[mps]

Anyone else visualizing steam shooting out of people's ears ITT?

[Berder]

bad player

Everybody involved in this discussion is an excellent player.

[Sandman25]

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[Sandman25]

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[and into]

Received a report.

I'm not exactly sure what to do about it; I think that both Sandman25 and Lasty have failed to assume good faith on the part of the other, which (as far as I can tell) started off because Sandman was insulted by the following:

People play the game in a wide variety of ways: for example, Sandman25 feels that the extended game would frequently kill him the way he plays unless he makes use of Necromutation

Whereas Lasty claims he was merely rephrasing what Sandman had already said in the thread (e.g., the post that starts "I wouldn't simply call it [Necromutation] convenient").

Maybe the tussle got started with something of a misunderstanding, but I think you both have been snippier and more personal in your disagreement than is needed. I ask you both to take a break from the thread and, if you wish, to take back up any arguments about Necromutation with cooler heads, later on.

Thank you!

[Pollen_Golem]

I thought necromutation is a rare spell. How often do you find it pre-extended, without Kiku?

Everybody involved in this discussion is an excellent player.

Hooray!

[mps]

You can check out object statistics via the objstat entry of learndb. Pre-extended, your odds are not that bad. I don't think it's worse than 50%. You can't expect to find it every 3 rune game, but I've seen it in every extended game I've done, I think, though I never use it. It's rare in the sense that you might not see it and you're unlikely to see it in more than one book in a given game. I don't think it's any rarer than spectral weapon (a far better spell, imo).

[duvessa]

its rare in the sense that its rare for it to be a good idea to memorize it

[dirtywick]

I think Necromutation is a net benefit overall. You can prepare for a trip to extended by ignoring tmut and necro and raise fighting, dodging, armor, and other defenses and equip items and stack consumables and if possible use some way of rapid regen based on the assumption you will consistently be fighting at half and lower hp against most things that are remotely dangerous because you will be getting tormented pretty often and you want to be able to survive those conditions. Or you can spend the xp on necromutation equip clarity on your neck and consistently be fighting at full to high hp and slightly worse defenses, which I think due to the potential of spiky damage is a better situation.

However the TSO/Zin combination sets you up for a really strong extended game also. I think either necromutation or TSO/Zin is the strongest extended options, followed by various combinations including neither.

Overall I think it's a pretty useful spell that sets you up for a much easier extended trip through Pan, Hells, and Tomb. I think the only area where it actively hurts you is the Abyss due to the massive amount of rot and stat loss you will receive.

[and into]

It is extremely unlikely that "get arbitrarily high amounts of dodging/fighting/armor skill" and "get necromutation" are your only options for skill training, even quite late into extended, so I'm not sure why people keep bringing up this false dichotomy.

In the vast majority of cases, any time that necromutation is even remotely feasible as an option, you will also have death's door available as an option, and that tends to be a much more attractive option in my experience.

[Berder]

In the vast majority of cases, any time that necromutation is even remotely feasible as an option, you will also have death's door available as an option, and that tends to be a much more attractive option in my experience.

Death's door makes your hp so low that a single hellfire will finish you off. For this reason I don't like it. I prefer borgnjor's instead, if I'm going to get one of those two. I've seen people get in a lot of trouble trying to use death's door and having it expire when enemies are still around. If you teleport you might end up somewhere bad when it expires.

You might think it's safe because you can wait for ddoor to expire, then immediately use borgnjor. It's not safe because all it takes is one decent hit during that single turn before you can use borgnjor, and you're done for. Or you could miscast borgnjor and spend multiple turns at 12 hp with a hellion in sight.

You might think it's safe because you can just only use it in controlled situations where there won't be a problem. To that I say, crawl is not that controllable. Maybe a hellion wanders in from beyond LOS just as the fight is ending. Maybe a hell effect finishes you off. Maybe the enemy heals himself, or teleports himself away leaving his summons to fight you. You just don't know. It's an unknown risk.

[duvessa]

in practice ddoor is actually invulnerability followed by more invulnerability

You might think it's safe because you can wait for ddoor to expire, then immediately use borgnjor. It's not safe because all it takes is one decent hit during that single turn before you can use borgnjor, and you're done for. Or you could miscast borgnjor and spend multiple turns at like 12 hp with a hellion in sight.

if you want to do this just put on stasis and cast borgnjor's while in ddoor, i guess you do lose a turn to quaff curing afterwards but...

[Berder]

in practice ddoor is actually invulnerability followed by more invulnerability

You might think it's safe because you can wait for ddoor to expire, then immediately use borgnjor. It's not safe because all it takes is one decent hit during that single turn before you can use borgnjor, and you're done for. Or you could miscast borgnjor and spend multiple turns at like 12 hp with a hellion in sight.

if you want to do this just put on stasis and cast borgnjor's while in ddoor, i guess you do lose a turn to quaff curing afterwards but...

Fair enough. Still, just borgnjor's alone is generally plenty.

[Sandman25]

if you want to do this just put on stasis and cast borgnjor's while in ddoor, i guess you do lose a turn to quaff curing afterwards but...

Or just be Fo of Ash as I did.

I prefer Borg over Death's Door too. The only exception was Fe who has really low HP anyway and can risk a bit due to extra lives.

[Sar]

I really like DDoor but I can be kind of stupid about losing those maxHP from Borg, plus DDoor can also be used as a defensive measure (I still use Borg though and I will learn it first if both are available). It's risky in Hells but other than that you can usually apply it in situations where you are reasonably sure you can deal with stuff (or you have Borg and a stasis amulet in your pack).

The fact that Borg and DDoor exist in the same book Necromut is (unless you found Necromut in an artifact book, which is entirely possible if you follow Sif or just cleaned Crypt) is in my opinion one of the biggest arguments against Necromut - both of those spells are easier to use for an average character (read: not a Transmuter) and they are mutually exclusive. Yes, you can cancel Necromut but it takes 1.5 turns and situations where you want to use Borg/DDoor are very often not situations where you can afford spending 1.5 turns (or 1 turn if hasted) doing essentially nothing. I'm not theorycrafting - I've died multiple times with Borg and/or DDoor readily available because I was in lichform. I guess I'm not a learning animal!

[Bart]

Lasty rightly pointed out that we went off topic a long time ago, including me as well.

I recall someone saying necromutation isn't really necessary for mages doing extended as the spell is really expensive (level 8 spell with TWO schools). And there are now quite a number of monsters with dispel undead now.

But then how would non-lich caster would fare in the extended? Just cast regeneration a lot? Doing Hell/Pan as a caster might be hard with all the monsters keep popping every few turns.

In general, casters deal with extended without necromutation the same as fighters do, so yes - they need regeneration a lot. The fact that casters often dabble in Necromancy comes mostly from the fact that... it is a spell school? So, caster's higher intelligence, lighter armour, pre-trained spellcasting and possibly better access to spells (via Kiku, Sif Muna) makes learning Necromut/DDoor/Borg easier than for fighters.

Casters really need Necromut only with Sif Muna, otherwise hunger is manageable. What is your concern in particular? Necromutation is beneficial both for axe maniac and infernalist. The picture of a wizard having poor defenses and thus needing necromut more than a fighter is distorted. A caster which spends his experience on defenses instead of necromut is definitely playable.

Necromuters are less subject to HP spikes crap, but on the other hand - once in a while they die to stuff they would outlive if they had 15HP more. I believe that avoiding spikiness is more important than better average performance, but it seems that the choice is just player dependent.

[kroki]

necromutation is kinda required for clearing zigs on casters, everywhere else its just a safety net you can substitute with player skill or god choice

[Eyesburn]

Doing extended without necromutation

Try extended with Kiku

[GlassGo]

Are you seriously recommending Necromutation for Ogre melee/hybrid IN GENERAL?

Yes, he is seriously recommend it.

I died due to Necromut at least 3 times!

I survived due Necromut tenfolds times more!11one

A lot of the posts in this thread seem to be interpreting nordetsa as saying "deep elf" instead of "caster". They also seem to be interpreting, "But then how would non-lich caster would fare in the extended?" as "Tell me why necromutation is great, even though it's implied that I already think it's good."

To address the initial post directly, the answers are:
1) heavy offense -- you can't get tormented by monsters that you've already killed;
2) good tactics and positioning and LOS-manipulation -- limit how many monsters have access to you and make sure the ones that do have access are where you want them to be;
3) Have a good recovery/escape plan for when you get tormented or can't use 1) and 2) to avoid the likelihood of being tormented.

More generally, "casters" don't have anything different to fear from torment than any other sort of character. Often they have less, since "caster" generally is taken to mean a focus on conjurations and spellpower. All the same tactics that "non-casters" use are valid, along with the possibility that you have very powerful long-range nukes that can take out even groups of tormenting monsters in 1-2 shots without worrying about positioning much.

As Bart says, Necromutation is a convenience, not a necessity; as Sar says, it can get you killed; as Sandman25 admits, it's expensive, even for a character set up as an extreme example of a "caster" that uses Necromutation. If you already have the spell castable for whatever reason, it can serve a purpose, but it's by no means necessary. People play the game in a wide variety of ways: for example, Sandman25 feels that the extended game would frequently kill him the way he plays unless he makes use of Necromutation; by contrast, I've never found it particularly useful except in one game where a remarkably small number of curing potions generated and where I was doing Tomb and getting lots of rot curses, and even then it was more convenience than necessity -- I had already done all four hells and all 5 pan runes and one level of Tomb before getting Necromutation.

Let me sum this up.
Conclusion - if you can afford Necromutation, go for it, because with it your hair will be silky smooth, and your char will be in safety.

[Turukano]

necromutation is kinda required for clearing zigs on casters

I'm not sure about this. Why do you think so? Because of hunger issues or because of torment danger?

[Sar]

Probably because nuking too many mummies at once without Necromut might kill you just by death curses.

[Siegurt]

Probably because nuking too many mummies at once without Necromut might kill you just by death curses.

Can verify, I've done this to myself, (It didn't even take very many, I killed 4 in one turn and was killed from full hps.)

[Turukano]

necromutation is kinda required for clearing zigs on casters

Probably because nuking too many mummies at once without Necromut might kill you just by death curses.

I was interested in death curses in detail and looked it up. learndb.html#death curse redirects to mummy and gives a link to necromancy miscast with the same results as death curse in the wiki.

Ignoring summoned demons etc which will not hurt you in the actual turn the biggest danger seems to be consecutive torments followed by strong pain (15-37 damage). A character with 200 HP and no rN could be dead after being tormented twice and twice bad luck with strong pain.

Although it's not too likely to have this much bad luck (chance for death curse torment is 14% for killing greater mummies) we all know Murphy's law.

Can verify, I've done this to myself, (It didn't even take very many, I killed 4 in one turn and was killed from full hps.)

How many HP did your char have? Which death curses applied?

[Siegurt]

How many HP did your char have? Which death curses applied?

Around 200 ish? DeFe with 27 fighting (I don't recally if there was any rot), and I believe it was 3 torment and 1 pain, it has been a while. I think I had 1 pip of rN, but I am not certain on that point.

[tasonir]

While I killed far more than 4 mummies, I did the same thing to a naga by slouching a bunch of mummies down. I was hit with say 10ish death curses, but they aren't what actually killed me, it was then after the death curses brought me to very low hp, the remaining mummies take their actions, and the smites kill you. So a couple torments from 4 death curses and then it's easy for any other mummies to do smite damage for the final blow. This gets around the whole "torment can't kill you" problem easily