Tips for early Necromancers

[milo]

Trying to get a hybrid going, with as much Necromancy as possible for support, but in about a dozen games I've yet to get to Lair. Mostly DsNe's and HONe's, but just tried a HOGl ^ Kiku, and felt a bit stronger overall. Using polearms. Think I'd be getting a bit further if I could remember to cast Vampiric once in a while, but basically keep getting to the point where strong monsters are brushing my minions aside, leaving me as just a plain ol' weak melee dude, running for their life. So,

- How early does one try to develop melee (or spells for a Gl)?
- How would one play a very melee-lite Ne, like DENe? (Not that I want to.)
- How important is spell-power for Necromancy?
- Good gods for Ne starts?

[bcadren]

Ever heard of a zombie bomb? That's when you use Inner Flame on your own zombie so that when a foe kills them they'll be consumed in the explosion. Muahahaha.

Anyways; Necromancy is better as support than your real focus. I'd recommend a start other than Ne that takes Kiku; because Kiku is one of the more powerful gods anyways. I think IE or FE combos particularly well, myself; but in general another book start that takes Kiku for Necro as secondary magic school.

Also, why HO? Seems like an odd race choice for --Ne.

If you like Ds, maybe DsIE^Kiku? [Use freeze and Ozo's Armour with weapon skill early; branch into Necro for Regen and Slaves. Hope Kiku gives you Simulacrum; which is the most powerful Slave Spell (and one of the most powerful ally spells overall).]

Anyways:

1. Develop Melee (or Conjurations) before trying to rush Animate Dead. [IE, close to first thing, after Anim Skele is good if you started a --Ne.]
2. No Melee Ne...I'd say DENe would be well-served to choose Vehumet and use Conjurations as primary kills with Necro as support spellschool. (Or rely on Kiku's corpse drops to get A LOT of slaves).
3. It's not. It has negligible effects on the slave spells. It does effect Vampiric Draining and Bolt of Draining considerably, but that's about all you'd care about, until very late game [it also boost DDoor, the most powerful charm in the game.]
4. From best to worst: Kiku (obviously) [though starting non-Ne then using Kiku to branch is better than Ne^Kiku], Vehumet (Branch into Conj), Ashenzari, Ru, Lugonu (if corrupted temple), Chei, Oka, and Sif. [Note: Ash, Ru and Chei may be hard for new players. They are powerful gods; but their associated COSTS are really high too.]

[Magipi]

I think a Ne start for Kiku is perfectly okay. If you start with another background, and Kiku chooses not to give you neither Animate Skeleton not Animate Dead, then you are left without zombies. Even if you get AS in your first book, a zombie horde on D:1 is better than waiting for D:5 or so.

For a Ne, I would train weapons very early. I'd play it as a "melee dude with an undead army". And when you get to full piety with Kiku, pain brand a fast weapon.

Species: I recommend Dr first of all. Also, you may consider DD (and go Makhleb, of course, and not Kiku).
And even with a DE, I would melee (preferably with a quarterstaff).

[Siegurt]

One of the things about allies in crawl is that they (for the most part) aren't terribly sturdy, Typically I play with my allies acting as "additional attacks" rather than as blockers (unless I need to block LOS from something)

Letting your zombies take the lead and following them up often get them killed quickly and ineffectively, as you noticed.

What I find works better is if you take the lead and let your zombies use attacks from the sides, e.g.:

  Code:

Z
@M
ZZ


This greatly increases your offense, while doing pretty much nothing for your defense, so when I'm using zombies like that, I will invest a slightly more into my defenses, and not as much into offense (I'll also often be using slightly lower level spells than I *could* be using, because I'll be using non-0-ER body armor earlier than I would with a more "pure" spellcaster)

If you watch for it, you'll notice that zombies also don't really attack until:
1. They are attacked
2. You are attacked
3. You attack with a ranged or melee weapon

You can take advantage of this fact and use it to position yourself and your zombies as you see fit, if you want your zombies to advance to attack something chuck a stone at it, if you don't, zap it with a spell (I think wands work for this as well) this lets you draw the creature towards you and your minions.

You can also use this fact to temporarily "park" your zombies by attacking a plant or something, while you go fetch a nearby baddie for them to chew on.

Other things you can do with zombies:
Zombie bombs are effective if you should get inner flame, be aware that though that they'll often take out a fair-sized chunk of freindlies.
Swapping with zombies to create gaps for fleeing is a good tactic
Zombies can give you distraction stabs (short blades pair reasonably well with allies in general because of this)

[Sar]

HO is an extremely good race for Ne/Kiku. And yeah, Ne^Kiku is a fine idea. Press aa and cast Animate Dead every time something looks dangerous.

[dowan]

If you watch for it, you'll notice that zombies also don't really attack until:
1. They are attacked
2. You are attacked
3. You attack with a ranged or melee weapon

You can take advantage of this fact and use it to position yourself and your zombies as you see fit, if you want your zombies to advance to attack something chuck a stone at it, if you don't, zap it with a spell (I think wands work for this as well) this lets you draw the creature towards you and your minions.

It seems really silly to me that it works that way. Why should ally AI differentiate between ranged weapons and spells? And does that mean casting freeze on an enemy doesn't make allies attack it, since it's a spell, even though it requires melee range?(I'm ignoring the fact that the enemy will most likely attack me next turn anyway, causing my allies to attack)

It just seems to be an obtuse mechanic, and it's not presented in game at all, except by noticing that it happens.

[nago]

Well I like zombies don't start moving to attack when I start to agony something, because they're stupid enough to block my line of fire

[treerex5]

Ever heard of a zombie bomb? That's when you use Inner Flame on your own zombie so that when a foe kills them they'll be consumed in the explosion. Muahahaha.

Zombomb

[dowan]

Well I like zombies don't start moving to attack when I start to agony something, because they're stupid enough to block my line of fire

But do you like that they start moving to attack if you shoot a ranged weapon at them? They're still stupidly blocking your line of fire in that case. That's the part that seems really silly to me, why differentiate between ranged weapon attacks and ranged spell attacks?

[njvack]

Yeah, when they get in the way of regular ol' ranged attacks, it's irritating too. 'ta' works fine to get them moving at a target, as far as I could tell.

[Siegurt]

Yeah, when they get in the way of regular ol' ranged attacks, it's irritating too. 'ta' works fine to get them moving at a target, as far as I could tell.

Well, yes, but it's louder (attracts more attention, and to me, rather than the location of the creature I'm attacking), and takes a turn doing a non-productive thing (throwing/firing at a creature at least does damage), I hate 'tX' commands, so if I can get away with not using them, I will.

It may be a slightly weird and awkward dichotomy, but it's damn useful once you understand how it works.

[njvack]

'ta' is loud? I thought only 'tt' was loud.

It's weird that throwing a rock does what 'ta' does, except more quietly and requiring line of fire.

[dowan]

Yeah, it's definitely useful to know how it works, I was just questioning why it works the way it does.

[Siegurt]

'ta' is loud? I thought only 'tt' was loud.

It's weird that throwing a rock does what 'ta' does, except more quietly and requiring line of fire.

I might be wrong about it being loud, I still hate wasting a turn on not doing damage, when I could not not do damage instead

[bel]

'ta' is loud? I thought only 'tt' was loud.

From my experience, 'ta' is same as shouting. It attracts attention like 'tt' does. I don't know if one is quieter than the other.

[tasonir]

My last necromancer: http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/tasonir/mor ... 041904.txt

I'd consider this to be a pretty heavily "melee" necromancer. Sure, I used necromancy, primarily for regeneration and animate dead, but if you're looking for an example of using necromancy simply to support melee, this is a good example of that.

Since this is an unarmed character, the first step is getting unarmed to 7. After that, I raised charms and necromancy. Learned animate dead on D:4 (not that it was castable - just learned). Trained charms to 5 and necromancy to 7 (equal to unarmed!), then switched to fighting/dodging/unarmed. Unarmed finally hit level 8 on D:8, which is a bit dangerously low, but you're able to get away with that on a vine stalker because bites kill things. I raised it more from then on, necromancy was still only 8.1 on ascension. I did about 90% of my total necromancy training by d:4.

Please keep in mind that this is an example, not "the" rules about how to play a melee necromancer. You'd probably want a bit more unarmed if you weren't a vine stalker, I am dangerously obsessed with the regeneration spell, etc etc. Being able to animate dead early on is staggeringly powerful, although this was also before the expiration timer on undead, which I haven't yet personally played with.

[Rast]

Is unarmed really the way to go with vine stalkers? How does it compare to quick blade?

[tasonir]

Is unarmed really the way to go with vine stalkers? How does it compare to quick blade?

Unarmed is available on d:1, a quick blade isn't. Certainly if you have a quick blade it's a good choice, but I wouldn't compare them for "early necromancers" at all. Maybe for later on, sure...

VS are great with pretty much any weapon, really.

[duvessa]

It compares well to quick blades because unarmed exists and quick blades really don't.

It doesn't really compare well to weapons in general though.

[dirtywick]

If you find a quick blade later it doesn't take much later in the game to invest in SB to min delay. Not "wasting" skill experience really only applies to the early game where a few levels of a skill when you have almost no skills levels in anything are crucial to survival. Switching to a weapon with a low min delay isn't that big of a deal when XP is plentiful.

[Wahaha]

The earliest time I would train a weapon skill is after getting vampiric draining. This is the earliest, not necessarily the best, but the point is you should have vamp draining. When I was learning how to play necromancers, I asked crate, a good player, for tips and he said "get vampiric draining and then do whatever". That helped me a lot.

[Magipi]

The earliest time I would train a weapon skill is after getting vampiric draining. This is the earliest, not necessarily the best, but the point is you should have vamp draining. When I was learning how to play necromancers, I asked crate, a good player, for tips and he said "get vampiric draining and then do whatever". That helped me a lot.

That's what I do too. However, you will probably get vamp draining on D:2, and quite possibly on D:1, so that's not a huge restirction.

[milo]

Thanks Tav.

I've at least made it to lair with my current dude, mostly by remembering to use Vampiric and Regen, and Kiku's 'aa'.

Speaking of Kiku, what's a good number for Necro skill? Does it relate directly to the strength of the corpses one receives?

[rchandra]

it's the more the better, like fighting/armour/dodging. Use your spell success/power as the main guideline, and I like to have 12+ for my pain weapon. I think it does affect corpse quality, it's basically Invocations with a new name with Kiku.