Make Lugonu more of a magic god like Kiku

[agentgt]

Recently I was talking to someone on ##crawl about how there are not enough magic gods in crawl. At first I disagreed but after thinking I have to sort of agree that most of the gods are melee oriented.

So instead of adding a new god perhaps we could make Lugonu more magic oriented and similar to Kiku but with Translocation instead of Necromancy.
This transformation could be done in a step-wise phases:

1. At 6* Have the ability to receive Akashic Record as an alternative to warp weapon (ala Kiku necronomicon/pain).
2. Have Lugonu's abilities be based on Translocation magic skill instead of invocation
3. Give translocation books at * and *** just like Kiku
4. Protection from all translocation miscasts (this goes along with the warp weapon unwield)
5. Perhaps make distortion weapons get a slaying bonus based on translocation+piety similar to pain but not as powerful and you must be a lucy worshiper

Obviously this is not an all or nothing list. I would be happy with just getting the Akashic Record as it gives kitty cats something.
As it stands getting the Akashic Record and/or singlurity online is very difficult compared to other level 8-9 spells as I believe Vehumet does not give this spell (if he does please correct me).
The other schools either don't need as much power (hex/transmutation) and/or there are plenty of ways to kill with the other schools as well as gods that pump out spells (elements, conjurations, and necromancy).
I also don't think this would be that big of a buff to Lugonu given these buffs are still no where near the level of overpower that is Kiku.
Finally the current experimental gods and recently added gods are still not very magic oriented (Ru, Wulndraste, Dithmenos, Pakellas).

[Lasty]

I disagree that the game lacks for good gods for "casters", by which I assume you mean blaster/conjurers. Dith is a fantastic caster god, maybe the best one. Ru and Wulndraste also provide solid support for casters. Even among the old gods, there are a huge number of gods that support casters well: Veh, Sif, Fedhas, Makhleb, Yred, TSO, Zin, Kiku . . . actually, pretty near the whole pantheon. I'm guessing what you really mean is support for casting magic specifically to the exclusion of other things, and since we already have three of those and only one god that supports melee to the exclusion of other things, I think that mechanic is quite well represented.

Also, Lugonu is already in a good place as-is, so transforming it into Translocations Kiku is a non-starter.

[1010011010]

Only Trog and Oka are particually melee related. Sif, Kik and Veh are magic orientated. All other are for neither and can be used for both. Only Trog punishes magic and none punish using melee.

What I dislike about the OPs proposal is that it wants to make Kik II: This time is translocations.

[Lyrick]

Pakellas

another one??

[agentgt]

Just some clarifications:

What I meant by magic oriented is a god that gives or support spells. While most of the old and new gods are great for supporting melee and magic there are only 3-5 (dith, sif, veh, kiku, ash) gods that are focused on improving magic ability. While that seems like more gods compared to the 2-3 gods focused on melee/evoke only (trog, oka, pakellas) there are many schools of magic that really get no bonus (basically any non conjuration/necro spell) and you still need spell books. Also I remember while making the same points you guys have the guy on IRC was saying there is no Oka invoke for improving magic or anti-trog god which is true.

While most of the other gods are not melee focused most char combos end up that way because they can't guarantee spells (either they don't get the books they need and/or its just easier to train a weapon + evoke/invoke). Kiku is unique in that it is a god like Trog that guarantees a very consistent path of success. I was also hoping a change like this might make Lugonu long term play more interesting. I rarely ever see players switch to Lugonu for extended:

!lg * god=jiyva s=race urune>6 won == 150 games
!lg * god=lugonu s=race urune>6 won == 126 games // remember lugonu has an advantage here as players can start with the god and yet jiyva is still higher.

But then again maybe singularity isn't that good of a spell. I have been able to cast it reliably to see how much damage so my point maybe void.

Again to reiterate: I don't think the other gods are weak for spellcasters... they just don't offer a reliable path to casting.

[and into]

In general, a proposal to make one god/species/spell more similar to another god/species/spell is flying directly against the tendency of game design in Crawl, which favors distinctiveness over symmetry (except for things like interface, obviously; all active god abilities are accessed under the (a)bility menu for reasons that shouldn't need explanation).

Vehumet and Kiku both have undergone changes over the last several versions in order to differentiate them further from each other and Sif. The question of whether or not there are enough gods to support magic is secondary; even if that were true, it would be a bad idea to go about adding more divine magic support by borrowing liberally from already existing Crawl gods that do directly support magic.

Even for the secondary question, though, I think a lot hinges on what one means by "support." Miscast protection for certain classes of spells, Kiku's boost to specific high level necro spells, etc., may have some ramifications in your long-term planning, but they are not very dynamic nor exceedingly interesting forms of support overall. So it is for good reason that most gods offer more than just that form of support, and also good reason that, for the most part, even the passive "always-on" abilities of the newer gods tend to affect combat in at least potentially a more dynamic way (Gozag, Qazlal, Ru, Dith's smoke bleed).

[agentgt]

In general, a proposal to make one god/species/spell more similar to another god/species/spell is flying directly against the tendency of game design in Crawl, which favors distinctiveness over symmetry (except for things like interface, obviously; all active god abilities are accessed under the (a)bility menu for reasons that shouldn't need explanation).

I agree albeit there is more symmetry in the game than you allude to (ice and fire for example). Also there is no Zealot background that is magic focused (they are all melee + invo).

Vehumet and Kiku both have undergone changes over the last several versions in order to differentiate them further from each other and Sif. The question of whether or not there are enough gods to support magic is secondary; even if that were true, it would be a bad idea to go about adding more divine magic support by borrowing liberally from already existing Crawl gods that do directly support magic.

Yeah I agree wholesale copying from kiku would probably not be interesting or fun but there are a ton of gods of that do very similar things for example 4 of the old gods have brands (dist, pain, holy, anti-magic) and many old gods give allies. I would say most of old the gods are actually pretty damn similar.

Even for the secondary question, though, I think a lot hinges on what one means by "support." Miscast protection for certain classes of spells, Kiku's boost to specific high level necro spells, etc., may have some ramifications in your long-term planning, but they are not very dynamic nor exceedingly interesting forms of support overall. So it is for good reason that most gods offer more than just that form of support, and also good reason that, for the most part, even the passive "always-on" abilities of the newer gods tend to affect combat in at least potentially a more dynamic way (Gozag, Qazlal, Ru, Dith's smoke bleed).

Well I'm not sure about that for this case considering Translocation miscasts are pretty godawful. Some of the worse in the game IIRC. I also didn't say remove Lugonu's existing abilities which would provide difference and dynamic support. Frankly I don't think you get much for Lugonu which is unfortunate because its wrath is pretty bad. I'm not sure how adding passive things such as being able to cast translocation spells with out getting mauled would hurt Lugonu's dynamic game play (I'm not even sure what you mean by dynamic.. maybe tactical?).

But overall your points and others are valid so the idea should probably be thrown out.

[Lyrick]

!lg * god=jiyva s=race urune>6 won == 150 games
!lg * god=lugonu s=race urune>6 won == 126 games // remember lugonu has an advantage here as players can start with the god and yet jiyva is still higher.

oops misthank

its alright that lugonu doesn't have a godly late game, cause her early to midgame is pretty easy.

Again to reiterate: I don't think the other gods are weak for spellcasters... they just don't offer a reliable path to casting.

how many gods do you want?

[Sprucery]

its alright that lugonu doesn't have a godly late game, cause her early to midgame is pretty easy.

I'd say Corrupt makes for a godly late game.

[agentgt]

its alright that lugonu doesn't have a godly late game, cause her early to midgame is pretty easy.

I'd say Corrupt makes for a godly late game.

Really? Maybe I'm just really bad at the game but I need a seriously powerful god for medium difficulty species for extended otherwise it becomes a 200k turn bore fest.
This is like when people say Fedhas makes for a great extended game god because the game generates so much fruit. Yeah you can drive with your feet but its not remotely safe... its sort of for bragging unless its your only choice (tournament).

I can accept gods that aren't made for extended... if they have an altar in the temple or early D and not godawful really bad wrath.

That being said I do like playing Lugonu but I probably would switch if I was going for more than 6 runes.

how many gods do you want?

I actually want less gods hence why I even brought up the idea of changing Lugonu. In fact I think yred and oka should be removed and sif should be revised (but that is for another time).

[Quazifuji]

What I meant by magic oriented is a god that gives or support spells. While most of the old and new gods are great for supporting melee and magic there are only 3-5 (dith, sif, veh, kiku, ash) gods that are focused on improving magic ability.

...

Again to reiterate: I don't think the other gods are weak for spellcasters... they just don't offer a reliable path to casting.

I think this is only percieved as a bad thing by inexperienced players who are used to min-maxing in RPGs and try to plan their character from the beginning instead of adapting. It's by design that very few starts offer a reliable path in Crawl, because adapting to what you find is the single most important part of Crawl's strategy and any strategy that gives you a reliable path without requiring you to adapt makes the game considerable less interesting.

A lot of new players over-plan instead of adapting, and as such they heavily overrate god gifts, especially in the case of spells. You can tell by the occasional-but-not-too-rare post on DungeonCrawling Advice or over at /r/dcss on Reddit where someone seems to think their whole strategy is ruined because Vehumet didn't give them the level 9 spell they wanted. I remember doing the same thing when I started. The prospect of being at the mercy of the dungeon to find spells outside of my starting book seemed horrible, and as such I didn't like the idea of starting with any caster god besides Vehumet or Sif. But over time I learned that the game is about adapting, that there are ways to overcome a scarcity of spellbooks without Vehumet or Sif, and there's a reason Vehumet and Sif's gifts are so unreliable.

And I think learning that is important, because the game is much more interesting when you understand that. Adding gods to gift every type of spell only reinforces the idea that gifts are a key part of gods and how you get a reliable path, and thats not an idea that should be reinforced. I think it's okay to have the set of gods we have now who help increase the reliability of the items you'll get, but I don't think we should add more, because the lack of reliability is what I think makes the game's strategy fun in the first place.

I agree albeit there is more symmetry in the game than you allude to (ice and fire for example). Also there is no Zealot background that is magic focused (they are all melee + invo).

Elemental symmetries and zealots aren't particularly popular features among the devs and other people around here, though. Death Knights are already gone in 0.16, some people want Healers to go too, and the only reason berserkers aren't on the chopping block as well is because they're iconic and a good new player class.

Meanwhile, since Ice Storm was replaced with Glaciate, bolt of cold/fire and throw flame/frost are the only real symmetry between fire and ice, and many people would love to remove that if a good replacement or change is suggested to differentiate one of the two in each case.

Yeah I agree wholesale copying from kiku would probably not be interesting or fun but there are a ton of gods of that do very similar things for example 4 of the old gods have brands (dist, pain, holy, anti-magic) and many old gods give allies. I would say most of old the gods are actually pretty damn similar.

Yeah, but those are old gods, and there's a reason new gods tend not to have a lot of overlap. Those ideas have already been done, and some people still dislike some of the similarities among the old gods and want them reduced (the holy brand has been a big topic of debate and some people want it changed to a TSO passive instead of a gifted brand, for example).

[qwesdf]

I can accept gods that aren't made for extended... if they have an altar in the temple or early D and not godawful really bad wrath.

What's wrong with Abyssal Knight?

[Sprucery]

That being said I do like playing Lugonu but I probably would switch if I was going for more than 6 runes.

Oh sorry, I misread the post and didn't realize that 'late game' meant extended. I haven't been in extended with Lugonu.

[crate]

corrupt is really really good in pan and hell so

[njvack]

Lugonu is already in a good place as-is, so transforming it into Translocations Kiku is a non-starter.

but you could name her Translokiku

[Quazifuji]

corrupt is really really good in pan and hell so

Doesn't banishment work on Pan and Hell lords too?

[Sar]

Last time I played an AK corrupt killed Lom Lobon. Probably starcursed masses, para is strong. Corrupt didn't kill Cerebov though, but I heard it's doable.

[Berder]

I do think we need more mage gods to compensate for Pakellas and Trog who simply ban magic. How about an anti-trog that bans melee?

Gort:
Bans melee!
* ability: Epiphany - the inverse of berserk. Grants haste + brilliance + 50% greater MP for a while, then causes exhaustion, slow and sometimes paralysis afterwards. Prevents all actions except spellcasting and walking.
** ability: Gort's foot - provides 1 mp/turn mp regeneration and +10 AC for a number of turns depending on piety
**** ability: Coven - summons a spellcaster of type depending on piety such as a deep elf conjurer on up to a deep elf demonologist. The summon is given the Epiphany status.
Gort grants gifts of magical staves, sometimes randart staves.

Not 100% serious But I like the idea of Epiphany as the inverse of berserk.


As far as melee/magic bias among existing gods goes, I think there is some bias towards melee. There's Trog, Okawaru, and Beogh who are overtly melee focused. Then there's Jiyva who eats all your spellbooks, making it hard to do anything but unarmed combat. Then there are a lot of gods that provide "melee support" that a player could use instead of powerful magic, but that's not as useful if you can cast the powerful magic yourself. Qaz stands out here as his abilities function like conjurations and cost MP. Yred also provides basically free necromancy without having to train necro skill. Also, yred summons are so numerous they have a habit of getting in the way of ranged conjurations, tending to encourage a melee character. Makhleb healing-on-kills is OK for a mage, but his abilities are basically summonings and conjurations that would be redundant on an actual summoner or conjurer, so he has a melee bias even if he's not bad for a mage. Zin's recite ability prevents spellcasting while active, and like other good gods he doesn't like necromancy and restricts what you can enslave or summon, and also he hates chaotic magic.

So in the melee-biased camp: trog, okawaru, beogh, jiyva, qaz, yred, makhleb, Zin. And now pakellas.

That leaves Ash, Chei, Dith, Fedhas, Lugonu, Nemelex, Xom, TSO, and Ely who are magic-neutral. TSO and Ely have some restrictions on specific schools of magic, specifically necromancy, hexes (TSO especially), and summons (Ely especially), but permit most magic so that's why I class them here.

And Kiku, Sif, and Veh are magic-positive. Kiku is only good for a somewhat narrow kind of magic, so most mages are going to want either Sif or Veh, or a magic-neutral god. A lot of people don't like Sif though, leaving Veh as the main option for mages who want a god that specifically supports magic as opposed to just supporting everything.

So I think there is some bias in the pantheon towards melee and not enough gods that help with magic specifically, and that could definitely use some balancing.


(Also, the zealot classes - Be, healer, AK, DK, CK - are all melee starts, regardless of the god's attitude towards magic. IMO for zealot types, there should be an option to start with a random spellbook instead of a weapon. Or perhaps just drastically improve the odds of finding some low level gimpy spellbooks on D1, like you find daggers).

[agentgt]

I think this is only percieved as a bad thing by inexperienced players who are used to min-maxing in RPGs and try to plan their character from the beginning instead of adapting. It's by design that very few starts offer a reliable path in Crawl, because adapting to what you find is the single most important part of Crawl's strategy and any strategy that gives you a reliable path without requiring you to adapt makes the game considerable less interesting.

A lot of new players over-plan instead of adapting, and as such they heavily overrate god gifts, especially in the case of spells. You can tell by the occasional-but-not-too-rare post on DungeonCrawling Advice or over at /r/dcss on Reddit where someone seems to think their whole strategy is ruined because Vehumet didn't give them the level 9 spell they wanted. I remember doing the same thing when I started. The prospect of being at the mercy of the dungeon to find spells outside of my starting book seemed horrible, and as such I didn't like the idea of starting with any caster god besides Vehumet or Sif. But over time I learned that the game is about adapting, that there are ways to overcome a scarcity of spellbooks without Vehumet or Sif, and there's a reason Vehumet and Sif's gifts are so unreliable.

And I think learning that is important, because the game is much more interesting when you understand that. Adding gods to gift every type of spell only reinforces the idea that gifts are a key part of gods and how you get a reliable path, and thats not an idea that should be reinforced. I think it's okay to have the set of gods we have now who help increase the reliability of the items you'll get, but I don't think we should add more, because the lack of reliability is what I think makes the game's strategy fun in the first place.

Excellent point and I agree with you in theory except for the fact the game already has an enormous amount of pretty reliable paths EXCEPT if your a magic user.
The only reliable magic user path is pretty much Kiku and I guess less so Vehumet.

Melee is pretty reliable. With the weapons auto-crosstraining even if you screw up "planning" to use say axes you can switch to maces quite easily.
There is only one "school" of "armor", "dodging", and "fighting" and even if your a magic user you sort of need to train some of those anyway.

Invocations and Evocations are even more reliable.

Here is an almost fool proof way to win regardless of background: Pick Fedhas, ignore your magic (you won't need it anyway with shrooms), train melee, evo, and invo to beef up your shrooms... switch to TSO or Zin late game (your invo should be pretty high by then). This strategy works with nemelex also and... almost all other gods.

I agree with you unreliable is sort of fun but magic is far far more unreliable than melee/evoke/invo right down to the spells themselves: "your bolt of fire misses", "the adder resists with significant effort", etc...

[Sar]

The only real problem with a jello-caster is that neutral jello gets in the way. On other hand, you get a ton of Int!

[Jarlyk]

I think Ash works pretty well for conjuration-heavy characters. The spell skill boosts are of course nice (both reduced fail rates and higher spell power, which you don't get with Vehumet) and she also gives you a lot of flexibility to adapt to the books you find by shifting XP around between spell schools, if needed. Weapon skill boost means you don't need to invest as much XP to get min-delay on your 'backup' weapon, which means you can invest more in defensive skills, evocations, spells, etc. Monster-sensing is also quite handy to help pick good fights and set up good positioning.

[damiac]

Yeah, Ash is a great god for conjuration using characters, especially considering that if you're doing most of your damage with conjurations, there's a good chance you're going to dabble in some other magic. Ash is THE god for dabbling in a lot of different magic, or at least, getting good results with a small investment.