Petrify and its uses

[Psiweapon]

Hai guise.

Enchanters are one of my favourite backgrounds, and I just love stabbing in general. I haven't ascended a spellcasting stabber (yet!) but I play them frequently.

So far I think I have a good grasp on several of the stab enablers: stealth (sleeping and unaware), hibernation, confusion, dazzling spray, invisibility, shadow step, distractions...

But petrification still eludes me, haven't had the chance with some characters, couldn't dedicate the XP at the moment and afterwards I was dead with others... so I have some questions for anyone out there who is familiar with the petrification spell and/or with stabbers in general:

-Are there any monster or monster types for which Petrification is a more reliable stab enabler than the already cited effects?
-How well does Petrification scale in power / how effective is it in practice against MR?
-Am I missing any other stab enablers?
-Any tips about other stabby/stealthy spells and effects, such as Darkness?

[Cantwell]

Yes, don't forget about nets! They're very effective on things that are not huge (things like liches and deep elves, which are inconveniently resistant to confusion and the rest).

I haven't used petrify much, but I believe its uses are
1. blocking hallways for your escape and
2. making fleshy enemies susceptible to Lee's Rapid Deconstruction.
But I could be wrong.

[Cantwell]

Also, you didn't ask about this, bit you might appreciate it anyway- enchanters can make excellent use of scrolls of immolation, by combining them with Enslavement. The opportunity comes up often in Orc, and it's just magnificently gratifying.

[KoboldLord]

Petrify is good at breaking up packs. You nail the lead death yak, and the rest of the pack loses a couple turns trying to get around it before it stops completely, letting you widen the gap before you start trying to nail the second in line. Then you keep running. By the time you're back at the stairwell, you have one death yak following you and three unpacked death yaks wandering in the darkness elsewhere in the level, where you can clean them up at your leisure and with a full bar of mp for each.

I've never felt motivated to use Petrify on an actual stabber. Without earth investment, the spell power seems… bad. I haven't ever had the experience of being able to justify its use for stabbing over a single-skill hex. But I could certainly have missed something.

[Sandman25]

Probably Petrify is good for FoEn (+2 Hexes, +2 Earth) or GrEn (-1 Hexes, +2 Earth).

[ZipZipskins]

isn't petrify tmut, not hexes?

[Siegurt]

Yes, petrify is tmut/earth.

It's good against things that see invis (so invis/dazzling spray isn't helpful against) and whom you can't get an ensorcelled hibernation off on (roughly MR40+)

It's particularly good in corridors, as the critter both can't attack you and prevents the critters behind it from coming through to attack you. It's approximately as good as confuse for damage, but it prevents them from doing as much damage to you (both during the slow and during the paralysis portion of the effect)

It is hard to justify the XP if you have a large investment in hexes however, unless you've got other earth and/or transmutation spells you want.

[stickyfingers]

Didn't you mean sense invisible? Dazzling spray should work fine vs see inv. Petrify gives better stabs than confuse and the monster stands in place, though the double exp cost and lack of good stabbing spells in the same schools (besides passwall, but that doesn't come close to hexes) makes it not than useful. Play mfee of ash or something like that if you want to try it.

[and into]

Not sure if this is a bug, but in wizmode but at least in 0.15.0–8, it seems that while you can dazzle monsters with sense invisible (test case: wolf), you cannot get stabs against them while they are dazzled. Against monsters with see invisible (test case: orc high priest), you can dazzle them and you can get stabs against them while they are dazzled. That's... weird.

At any rate, dazzling spray is very strong.

Petrify in general is not worth getting on a stabber who already has some good hex spells and the training to back them up.

EDIT

Monsters which "sense invisible" can see invisible opponents if they are distance 4 or less away, and have bonuses to perception in other cases.

I guess disallowing stabs while blind is one of those "bonuses to perception."

[Lyrick]

I guess sensing has nothing to do with seeing?

[and into]

It just seems misleading that sense invis enemies will get the dazzled status (and presumably some of the debuffs that come with that?) but then not become susceptible to stab attacks. It would be like some (very small) subset of enemies being vulnerable to confusion, but immune to stabs while confused. Why not just make that subset of enemies immune to confusion?

[Psiweapon]

Not sure if this is a bug, but in wizmode but at least in 0.15.0–8, it seems that while you can dazzle monsters with sense invisible (test case: wolf), you cannot get stabs against them while they are dazzled. Against monsters with see invisible (test case: orc high priest), you can dazzle them and you can get stabs against them while they are dazzled. That's... weird.

At any rate, dazzling spray is very strong.

Petrify in general is not worth getting on a stabber who already has some good hex spells and the training to back them up.

EDIT

Monsters which "sense invisible" can see invisible opponents if they are distance 4 or less away, and have bonuses to perception in other cases.

I guess disallowing stabs while blind is one of those "bonuses to perception."

Exactly like you are saying.

It *is* meaningful that "sense invisible" monsters can get dazzled, because they can lose track of you if you're far away enough.This "problem" is most often found against hounds and other canines, and it makes total sense: The monster isn't seeing, but that doesn't mean it can't tell where you are in order to bite your ass if you're close enough.

More on topic: I guess the exact motivation behind my questions with petrify is: "Are there any monsters that I can reliably stab with Petrify but not with confuse, hibernation, or dazzling?"

[and into]

More on topic: I guess the exact motivation behind my questions with petrify is: "Are there any monsters that I can reliably stab with Petrify but not with confuse, hibernation, or dazzling?"

Petrify checks MR, which is what confuse and hibernation also check. Creatures with at least one pip of rC will be immune to hibernation. AFAIK there is nothing in the game that cannot be confused, but which is susceptible to petrify. (There are a few that are immune to petrify but can be hit by confuse, such as catoblepas and enemy gargoyles.)

[duvessa]

Enemy gargoyles can't be confused. Nonliving monsters are immune to confusion (no, seriously), along with plants. So at least the following monsters can be petrified but not confused: ancient zyme, worldbinder, thrashing horror, tentacled starspawn, starcursed mass, war gargoyle, molten gargoyle, lurking horror, oklob plant, oklob sapling, giant spore.

Anyway petrify is kind of a bad spell and you probably won't find a useful way to do damage with it (you can target LRD on a wall instead of wasting a turn and 4 mp, and petrify stabs are really bad at actually killing the monster) but it's maybe possibly okay for getting away from some monsters occasionally.

[and into]

Wow. Fuckin' Crawl.

[Psiweapon]

Enemy gargoyles can't be confused. Nonliving monsters are immune to confusion (no, seriously), along with plants. So at least the following monsters can be petrified but not confused: ancient zyme, worldbinder, thrashing horror, tentacled starspawn, starcursed mass, war gargoyle, molten gargoyle, lurking horror, oklob plant, oklob sapling, giant spore.

THIS. THANKS. A LOT.

Especially lurking horrors. Petrify and get the fuck away. Many of those monsters have some sort of pesky ability they shouldn't be able to use while petrified.

Nonliving monsters with infinite MR are already absent from this list, right?

Anyway petrify is kind of a bad spell and you probably won't find a useful way to do damage with it (you can target LRD on a wall instead of wasting a turn and 4 mp, and petrify stabs are really bad at actually killing the monster) but it's maybe possibly okay for getting away from some monsters occasionally.

Is it that bad? It's the same category as netted or webbed, according to monster info. Does the damage reduction mitigate it that much?

What about high stealth skill+shortblades skill?
What about speed brand and quickblades?
What about electrocution and stabbing brands?

[Siegurt]

Well, petrify/petrifying stabs are weird, Being under the petrifying status gives you some significant damage mitigation, but the actual *type* of stab is pretty good, it's as good as nets (Which is better than invis/confusion but worse than sleeping or paralyzed)

The net damage done after bonuses and penalties is still fairly decent (It ends up being about as good as invis/confusion stabs after all is said and done)

IMHO it's probably slightly more reliable than confusion stabs (since the critter can't move away from you, and you get more shots on it) if you're stabbing things while they're petrifying. However things do get to take swings if you do that. If you only stab things while they're actually petrified, you're probably going to get fewer stab attempts than with confusion.

HOWEVER: The problem with petrify as a spell is that it requires you use two schools that don't overlap with the rest of your spell-set, it's much better as a way for an EE to branch into stabbing, than it is useful as a spell that an enchanter should use as an alternate to confusion.

[ZipZipskins]

The net damage

Nets don't do damage.

[Hurkyl]

More on topic: I guess the exact motivation behind my questions with petrify is: "Are there any monsters that I can reliably stab with Petrify but not with confuse, hibernation, or dazzling?"

Petrify checks MR, which is what confuse and hibernation also check.

But what exactly is the MR check? As I recall, if you have EH and Confuse with the same spell power, Confuse is still more likely to work than EH. And agony, another MR-checking spell, is far more likely to work than Confuse at equal spell power.

[and into]

The net damage

Nets don't do damage.

I think Siegurt meant "the damage caused when you get a stab off on an enemy caught in a net." (However, incidentally, there used to be some special case for nets doing damage to the player, but I don't recall the specifics and I think it was removed.)

But what exactly is the MR check? As I recall, if you have EH and Confuse with the same spell power, Confuse is still more likely to work than EH. And agony, another MR-checking spell, is far more likely to work than Confuse at equal spell power.

Yeah, MR check is not very clear. (Certain MR-checking spells get, in essence, a hidden spellpower boost, all of them get a "normal" step-down function, but then EH gets an additional step-down supposedly.)

All I meant is that if you are already able to confuse stuff pretty well, then you really don't need petrify, even if there are (thx again duvessa) some monsters that can be petrified, but not confused.

Also, when in doubt, just remember that, if you pass the MR check, Enslavement works on basically everything that is not outright immune to hostile enchantments.

[Siegurt]

Actually, no "the net damage" had nothing to do with nets, I meant "the total damage after adding bonuses and subtracting penalties" As in "net worth" or "net income" Nothing to do with actual throwing nets at all.

[Lasty]

Neither Confuse nor EH nor Petrify have hidden extra spellpower. At the same spellpower, EH and Confuse are equally likely to work, but EH will be at a lower spellpower than Confuse for any character whose Hexes skill exceeds their Ice skill, which is typical for a hex-stabber character.

[and into]

Neither Confuse nor EH nor Petrify have hidden extra spellpower.

According to the wiki (I know, hold on) EH gets an additional step-down. I had to think for a bit before I posted. On the one hand, it is the wiki. On the other hand, there *are* de facto spell power modifiers when it comes to certain hexes, and in general how/when stuff checks MR is kind of convoluted. Ultimately I decided to hedge my bets with a carefully placed "supposedly."

[ackack]

Is the issue a stepdown or just a low cap? I thought EH power maxed out at 25; Confuse does not suffer from this limitation, which is another reason aside from dual schooling that Confuse will seem more effective.

[stickyfingers]

  Code:

int spell_zap_power(spell_type spell, int pow)
{
    switch (spell)
    {
    case SPELL_CORONA:
        return pow + 10;
    case SPELL_HIBERNATION:
        return stepdown_value(pow * 9 / 10, 5, 35, 45, 50);
    default:
        return pow;
    }
}


Yes, EH has additional stepdown (and a cap at 56, though the value returned by the stepdown won't surpass 50).

[and into]

Yes, EH has additional stepdown (and a cap at 56, though the value returned by the stepdown won't surpass 50).

Damn it, should have gone all in, and left out the "supposedly."

[Lasty]

Dang, missed that stepdown. Sorry, folks.

[njvack]

Yes, EH has additional stepdown (and a cap at 56, though the value returned by the stepdown won't surpass 50).

Why? This is not a rhetorical question; I'm curious about how this mechanically affects the game. Does it ensure EH doesn't get too strong at high level, or something else?